Charming and disarming, a not too critical critic of Heretic TOC wrote on another blog recently that “There comes a point when even the best argument becomes too well written, too well researched and too learned. An Idiot’s Guide to both Stephen Hawking’s and TOC’s theories would be appreciated….” It must be admitted that the “punitive state” piece last time was a bit relentlessly heavy on the theory, although the number and quality of the comments, plus over 300 hits per day, suggests there is interest.
This time, then, for a little light relief (relatively speaking!), TOC brings you a taste of his adventures last week inside the Westminster Bubble, an experience more akin to Alice in Wonderland than to other phenomena with which it might be confused, such as the South Sea Bubble.
American readers will be familiar with the bubble concept from their own expression Inside the Beltway, or the Washington Bubble, denoting an intensely political world, peopled almost entirely by politicians, government officials and media folk who spend so much time incestuously preoccupied with each other that they lose touch with the realities of life outside their privileged zone.
Or so it is claimed. The real truth, though, is that these clever people have sharp political antennae, which is how they keep their power and influence: they need to stay alert in all sorts of ways, paying attention not just to opinion polls and focus group research but also to those who turn up in person to lobby them, from corporate interests (especially!) to activist groups of every hue.
Which is where my London trip comes in. I was there for a whole bunch of personal lobbying, networking and media reasons, and also to participate in various rallies, protests and debates.
Two of these events were in the Palace of Westminster itself, aka the Houses of Parliament, starting with Challenging the Campus Censors. Held in the Grand Committee Room with a panel of speakers, this saw the launch of the Free Speech University Rankings (FSUR) by the journal Spiked. What FSUR devastatingly demonstrates, sadly is the extent to which freedom of expression is being eroded in the very institutions where it is most vitally needed if any sort of heresy – including but not limited to the Heretic TOC variety – is to survive the onslaught of hegemonic political correctness.
Back in the 1970s I appeared by invitation at a number of universities, mainly to address student gay societies on paedophilia and children’s sexual freedom. There were neither objections by the university authorities nor any attempt by students to No Platform me*. After speaking at Cambridge University, I was treated very hospitably by the organisers: they took me to hear (and of course see!) the choirboys perform evensong at King’s College. Those were the days!
In my case, the high watermark of this openness to heresy was a prestigious invitation from the president of the Oxford Union to address that august debating society, possibly the world’s most famous; its speakers have included three US presidents, top scientists from Einstein to Hawking, and celebrities of all kinds from Michael Jackson to Kermit the Frog. Ahead of the event, though, the university was subjected to heavy media pressure against my appearance, and the invitation was withdrawn.
We all know how the sorry saga has played out since then in terms of paedophilia as a There Is No Debate (TIND) issue. What I discovered to my horror, though, from FSUR and related revelations last week, is the extent to which free speech is now being denied on campus across a whole range of issues. As Ian Dunt told us in the Guardian:
“In recent months, Oxford University cancelled a debate on abortion because protesters objected to the fact it was being held between two men; the Cambridge Union was asked (but refused) to withdraw its speaking invitation to Germaine Greer because of her views on transgender issues; officials at London Southbank took down a “flying spaghetti monster” poster because it might cause religious offence; UCL banned the Nietzsche Club after it put up posters saying “equality is a false God”, and Dundee banned the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children from their freshers’ fair. The Sun is banned on dozens of campuses because of Page 3. Robin Thicke’s Blurred Lines song has also been banned by many student unions.”
Note, especially, the relevance here of this last one: the lyrics are about sexual consent.
The curious thing, to someone of my generation at least, is that the censorious spirit is not coming from above, from heavy-handed political or administrative quarters. It is not state censorship. Rather, TIND reflects what seems to be a new fragility among the students themselves, who are arriving at university from a school culture in which they have grown used to seeing themselves as in need of protection, reflecting a wider cultural background in which child protection is seen as a priority. It reflects specifics of their cultural environment, such as school anti-bullying policies, and also their exposure to what is admittedly sometimes a brutally obnoxious scene of social media trolling. Feeling (with every justification) that being subjected to violent threats and venomous defamation online is just plain wrong and unacceptable, these youngsters are turning up at university believing they are entitled to remain shielded from “offensive” views of all kinds. They do not seem to realise that new but potentially important ideas are often shocking, and that a university is a grownup place whether intellectual debate needs to be unfettered.
The following day I was back in the palace, this time supporting Hacked Off, which Spiked muddle-headedly presents as a group lobbying against free speech. Hacked Off, as British heretics will know, was set up in the wake of revelations that newspapers including the now defunct News of the World, and the Sun, both owned by global media baron Rupert Murdoch (whose other crimes against humanity include Fox News), were engaged in illegal phone hacking and libellous smear tactics – including the infamous Fake Sheikh’s sting operations which have resulted in innocent people being jailed and many other lives shattered. As heretics here may remember, I was among those on the receiving end.
Where Spiked gets it wrong is in confusing the “right” of a handful of mega-rich media moguls to trash people as viciously, mendaciously and unaccountably as a Twitter troll, with the right of all of us to legitimate (non-libellous, not inciting violence) freedom of expression. The latter right, in Hacked Off’s view and mine, will be advanced, not retarded, by such means as giving a strengthened right of reply to those who are traduced in the press, and encouraging wider media ownership. Hacked off also supports the recent Leveson Inquiry report, which recommended measures aimed at securing a more independent press complaints body than the toothless Press Complaints Commission.
Hacked Off’s rally was in Committee Room 14, which turned out to be an even grander venue than the Grand Committee Room. When I think of a committee I have in mind no more than about 25 people, but about ten times that number were present for Hacked Off’s big day, packed along two sets of opposing benches like a miniature version of parliament itself. When I arrived, slightly late after an appointment with my MP, I was lucky to get the last seat before my attention turned to a distinguished-looking, silver-haired old gentleman who was holding forth as one of the panel speakers.
The voice seemed familiar. Then it struck me: John Cleese! Goodness, it was a face I probably hadn’t seen since The Life of Brian over thirty years ago. Anyway, he was on good form, blasting the new Independent Press Standards Body (IPSO) as anything but independent, saying it was designed to be a puppet of the big corporations, with editors given a key role, like setting foxes in charge of the henhouse. Actually, he had his own comparison, a rather good one:
“Of course they want to regulate themselves, we’d all like to regulate ourselves wouldn’t we?” he said. “Builders, accountants, murderers, they’d all like to regulate themselves.” He added: “The murderers would make a very good case – they’d say we murdered a lot of people, we know people who have murdered people. We really are best qualified to regulate.”
Dramatically, these remarks led within just a few minutes to the verbal murder of a particular journalist present in the room, one Mr Alex Wickham. Allow me to announce it Cluedo style: he was attacked by the chairman, in the committee room, with some very blunt accusations!
Wickham, as the chairman revealed, is a sleazeball sting artist working with political blog Guido Fawkes. The scurrilous scribe had immediately tweeted what Cleese said, in a message falsely implying the comedy actor had seriously compared the newspaper bosses to murderers. In a trice, news of this tweet got back to the committee room, where the chairman outed and admonished Wickham, saying he didn’t know how he could sleep at night, doing what he did. There were calls around the room for the malefactor to stand up and be seen.
The pressure must have got to the hounded hack, because he meekly stood up, as he had been ordered, and tried to explain himself. He didn’t get far before he was slapped down by the chair, who said, “Sit down, I don’t want to give you a platform as you have a megaphone”.
I didn’t feel sorry for Wickham, who is a double-dyed shit. I did, however, find myself a bit uneasy over the kangaroo court I had witnessed. And I noted, also, that one of the later speakers was a dreary feminist of the most humourless kind, who spent her allotted time at the mic grinding out a litany of demands for new press standards including a requirement that the term “under-age sex” should be replaced with “child rape”. Alarmingly, she was given a substantial round of applause.
Maybe Spiked has got it at least half-right after all.
Looking beyond Westminster, it has been another extraordinary week in Britain’s disastrous post-Savile Cultural Revolution, worth half a dozen separate blogs at least. Sadly, I’ll have to settle for a few brief news items with links.
* I tell a lie. The relaxed atmosphere changed once PIE hit the headlines in a big way. After that, in 1977, PIE speakers, including me, were No Platformed a lot. In Liverpool, for instance, I was not only prevented from speaking at the university, I was also banned by the Liverpool Hoteliers Association from staying in any of their hotels!
JAIL EVERYONE IN THE LAND, DEMANDS PM
Well, not quite everyone, but British prime minister David Cameron made a giant leap towards outright insanity by insisting it’s not good enough just to jail “abusers”; now he wants to put teachers, social workers and local councillors behind bars if they fail to meet his stringent witch-hunting targets. Coming in the wake of a report on the “grooming” of teenage girls Oxfordshire by ethnic minority males , the move is a blatantly populist piece of pre-election gesture politics. As letter-writers to the Guardian and others have pointed out, the main result will be to further discourage anyone from working with children in professions already suffering from low pay and low prestige. On the Oxfordshire situation, these reports are very revealing, although not necessarily in the way their writers intended: see professionals and kingfisher.
TOUCHING IS WORSE THAN TORTURING
Glam rock star Gary Glitter was jailed for 16 years for under-age sex with three girls. His offences, though serious, appear to have been essentially of a “statutory rape” kind plus lesser intimacies rather than truly violent: the three girls in question were his fans. The youngest was eight. A mother who tortured her eight-year-old daughter to death received a lesser sentence, of 13 years. The court heard that her lesbian lover convinced her that the child was possessed by demons and had to be “destroyed”. The women would give the little girl cold baths, force feed her until she was sick and make her scrub the bathroom floor to rid her of “evil spirits”. She died from a blow to the head at her home. What does this contrast say about our society’s values?
RACCOON WRESTLES WITH ‘ALLEGATORS’
The indefatigable Anna Raccoon has again been wrestling the ‘allegators’ in the Savile case on her wonderful blog, exposing the paucity of allegation after allegation. See her Home Page and scroll down for five recent blogs with Savile in the title. To my mind, though Anna’s most devastating recent piece was Alphabet Soup and Paedo Hysteria. which looks at the work of Kevin Harrington, the author of Serious Case Reviews on real child abuse, ranging from Child ‘A’ in London, through Child ‘C’ in Portsmouth, onwards to Child ‘K’ in Southampton and beyond. These are ghastly cases like the torture/death one above, most of which never even make the national headlines. As Anna points out, instead of pouring in resources to prevent these cases, money, effort and attention is wasted on paedo hysteria instead.
ONE THAT FLEW UNDER THE GAYDAR
To finish on a pleasanter note, Wendy Fenwick in the March/April edition of Gay & Lesbian Review Worldwide, reviews Craig Johnson’s recent film The Skeleton Twins, which sounds good, although way too gay for my taste. Anyone seen it? She writes:
[Milo’s] first sexual experience was with a high school teacher when the lad was only fifteen. It was a huge deal when it happened – things were settled quietly, we learn – but Milo isn’t completely over the relationship and in fact seeks out the teacher, named Rich, with thoughts of reviving the affair. Thus has the movie entered that radioactive territory of “intergenerational sex,” otherwise known as pederasty. What’s surprising is that the film doesn’t indulge in the usual hand-wringing over Rich’s turpitude or dwell on how Milo was traumatized for life by the affair. In fact, Milo wasn’t traumatized at all and insists that it was not only consensual but a positive experience in his early gay life. …I’m surprised it didn’t trigger more controversy than it did, including threats of a boycott.
Even Daily Mail critic Brian Viner allowed himself to like it, perhaps because the overall context is a gentle romcom not a fiercely challenging drama.
There was recently a brisk debate going on in the blogosphere with regard to what you say about the delicate sensibilities of today’s university students. Edward Schlosser wrote this: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid. Amanda Taub replied with this: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/5/8736591/liberal-professor-identity. Koritha Mitchell joined in with this: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/10/8753721/college-professor-fear.
Hi. I just wanted to say that I checked out the piece by Carin Freimond, and thought it was very well done. I was pleasantly surprised actually. Also, I was wondering if there is an audio version of the book Pedal, by Chelsea Rooney
Good to hear from you Ms Addams. How’s your Uncle Fester? 🙂 Any editions of Chelsea Rooney’s book would be announced here, I think:
http://caitlin-press.com/our-books/pedal/ Doesn’t seem to be an audio version yet.
How’s uncle Fester? Festering rather well I believe. Hahaha. I will be sure to check out that site, and continue checking out your blog for additional updates and comments. Keep up the good work!
>Festering rather well I believe.
So nobody pressed charges after all! 🙂
>Keep up the good work!
Thanks. I’ll try!
Well, Hahah, I can’t seem to find the book on Amazon, here in the Us. I was going to get the Kindle EBook version. Never mind I guess. Blah.
I’d like to apologize for my generation. Schools taught us a lot about forcing equal outcomes, never hurting feelings, banning words and speech to protect those feelings, banning self-defense because the “authority” would handle it, and overall just forcing kids to live “safely”.
Luckily for me, I fell out of that mode of thinking relatively quick thanks to past experiences as well as present experiences and research.
The point Lensman made about smacking: I myself would find that distasteful
Though if it was made illegal — That would be the nanny state going too far!
Nearly ninety percent of French people agree with smacking; So it was up- yours to the ever expanding E.U. And well done!
But I can see when it would make sense: Not looking when crossing the road for example — If illegal,potentially your child could get taken away — Being on the radar of social services is not a good place to be — Especially if your split-up,and your EX has malice towards you!
Following on from Lensman again ‘sorry’:-) Where people would rather spend huge resources on the ‘sexual’ side of ‘abuse’ and ignore the more significant rest — Here’s another example; Imagen a bus-driver back,say, In the 1950s and when dropping them off home — A five year old falls asleep on the seat,It probably would not be uncommon, If he’s fond of kids, To carry the kid to the door,and the parents offering him a cup of tea as a thankyou!
Can you imagine that today — How dare you touch ‘my’ child, And his job would be the least of his worries — Even if he’s never looked at CP in his life
because they only have to look under 18 today, That’s what I was told – But its a tall order getting the prosecution to prove the ages if the girls/boys in question!
I was heartbroken and angered when I read of the case of the mother and her lesbian lover torturing her eight year old daughter. In a better world that child could have lived with someone who would have given her the love and respect that all children should receive. But Society would rather she suffered torture and death from the hands of her mother, than love from mine.
It would be good if the media started repeating and drumming it out how most children who are killed die at the hands of their parents. But that is a message no-one wants to listen to, it seems.
I’ve set a metaphorical stop-watch to this story – how long will it run for? My betting is, given that there seems to have been no sexual abuse involved, that it will quickly fizzle out of the public’s interest (has it indeed even caught alight?) – no public enquiries, no calls for heads to roll…
Parents killing their children is just not ‘sexy’ enough for our society.
On a related matter…
Where I live they’re debating whether smacking children should be made illegal.
At the moment I can touch a child’s buttocks on the one condition that that ‘touch’ is sufficiently violent to cause pain, distress and/or non-permanent reddening.
A non-violent touch could land me in jail.
There is also the parallel of “loving touch vs. circumcision”
-even more poignant, in my opinion.
Your mention, in passing, of the Guardian brings back memories of raised hackles…
Well, whatever the Guardian’s position on Freedom of Speech, it could start by having a serious look at its own so-called “Comment is Free” which censors any comment posted that doesn’t rigorously toe the ‘child-sex hysteria’ line.
In the past I’ve posted there many times – always restraining my fervour, always keeping things ‘academic’, sugaring and diluting the ideas I want to put across, knowing that the cause would be best served by treading softly and not scaring the horses.
And I have been shocked by how the slightest hint of ‘debating the undebatable’ has earned my comments censorship. After a few times of this happening I went to check the Guardian’s “Community standards and participation guidelines ” but found nothing there that could justify my comments having been banned.
What I imagine is someone at CiF’s offices just disliking what my comments might imply, or imagining ‘only a paedo would want to bring such a nuance to this subject’ and thinking that that was sufficient justification for censoring my comment.
I have long given up with Comment is Free – it’s too frustrating writing a comment, editing to make it as clear as possible, checking links, research and evidence and posting it, only to find it disappear after a few hours; but I still will recommend comments that catch my eye. And I’ll sometimes revisit a comment I’ve recommended in order to see what response it’s had.
And that’s how I learnt that a comment posted a few days ago that had made me cheer out loud, and which also seemed the epitome of calm, polite, empirical reasoning, had been censored. It was a comment in response to the editorial “The Guardian view on child sex abuse: right questions, wrong answers ” (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/03/guardian-view-on-child-sex-abuse) – I remember the commenter pointing out that the article was using the term ‘child abuse’ interchangeably with ‘child sexual abuse’ – as if all other forms of child abuse (physical, emotional, neglect etc) somehow didn’t amount to real abuse, as if there was only one form of abuse that really mattered.
He quoted and linked to statistics which showed that child sexual abuse constituted only 9% of overall abuse figures. He then asked why there was this disproportionate focus on the least common form of abuse and made the point that anyone who has been a parent or teacher will have experienced feelings of anger or frustration that could be seen as the beginnings of violence against a child, whereas most people wouldn’t admit to experiencing feelings that could be seen as the beginnings of a sexual attraction to a child – and that’s why those who neglect and physically or emotionally abuse children don’t shock us in the same way as do sexual abusers.
I’d have recommended that comment a hundred times if I could. But lo and behold, a few hours later instead of this thoughtful and serious comment there was:
“This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn’t abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.”
I was stunned. What seemed to me the most serious and informed comment in the whole thread had been censored. I was reminded yet again just how absolute is the shutdown on alternative narratives.
Sometimes I need to be reminded of the insane hysteria that we and our pet issue are subjected to – as an ageing and (reluctantly) celibate paedophile I can live in a world where my desires are safely and legally satisfied by furtive glances and smiles, innocent interactions, and by lovely little girls on youtube, and where I spend much time on sites populated by others like me, and reading books and research which tends to reinforce my view on the issues involved, and where my non-paedo friends are either tolerant of my sexuality or actually supportive of our cause – it sometimes seems like a cosy, comfy, warm, fuzzy little world.
Except, of course, it’s not a cosy little world we live in – it’s a panic room.
I know the feeling, Lensman; all too familiar. The moderators kept me off the BBC’s comment forum in 2003 even when I was being personally named and trashed following a programme (After Dark) in which I had participated as a panellist. I was allowed no right of reply even to outright libels. I complained to the governors of the BBC and won my case but it took about a years’ worth of effort after complaints to the management at a lower level were thrown out.
I have no idea how people get onto these moderating teams but the job appears to attract the worst kind of censorious zealot. I am pretty sure the editor-in-chief of the Guardian, Alan Rusbridger, is far more open minded, but that puts him at odds with a substantial slice of his readership and indeed his own journalists, especially the female columnists.
“And I have been shocked by how the slightest hint of ‘debating the undebatable’ has earned my comments censorship”
Yes I have suffered the same fate with the guardian: There’s been a few recently — The Giles Frasor article on virtual paedophilia; The view of a vicar,enough said! Also about the footballer having sex with an ‘under age’ fan; boasting about it apparently,like a true victim. And also the article about pardoning homosexuals for crimes that would not be crimes today,with the fear that some ‘pedos’ would slip through the net.
But it is frustrating when you see generalisations on an epic scale,yet as soon as you challenge them,they’ve deleted you,and inform you that all your comments will be pre-checked: Don’t know why I bother.I notice some spiked bloggers on there,and Mr Moxon’s comments never seems to be there;he probably mentions that puberty in girls starts at ten going on nine,and the changes in the brain as a result of puberty(though there’s things going on already before puberty) and that’s enough for them! But Ian B seems to get through quite allot,despite his inauspicious comments about feminism – Another sacred cow of the left.When I commented about the homosexual pardon,I suspect they may have thought I was anti gay; which is erroneous.
Making the point that a 14yo is in no way paedophilia is to much for some!
Hi, Lensman. Most of these moderating teams that act as overseers of the comments sections of even supposedly progressive or alternative online zines like The Guardian provide themselves with one particular “out” that is often stated in the FAQs: The right to delete any post which is deemed “inappropriate” or “against community standards.” Of course, these things can mean pretty much any topic the moderating team finds particularly offensive, either to themselves, or predict will be viewed as such by a large portion of their readers. And this rule for censorship is enforced on these particularly ‘hot button’ topics no matter how polite, academic, and rigorously backed up by relevant citations because of how strongly they against our society’s “values.” Alas, this topic is one of them, quite possibly the most sacrosanct value-laden topic of them all.
Of course, the constant and rampant censorship of this subject serves to successfully create the illusion to the majority – including the majority of MAPs who are just discovering who they are, and looking for more research online – that there is no debate on the topic, and that there is no viable alternative opinion on the subject despite the good amount of scientific evidence backing up a more nuanced view. This is designed to send a powerful “message” to anyone with the ability and inclination to read.
Another way these moderating teams provide mass censorship on these particularly controversial topics is by allowing their readers to play moderator with the placement of a ‘flag’ button in the comments section. This allows – and by proxy encourages – readers to “report abusive and inappropriate” posts to the moderating team. If there is such a flag button on The Guardian‘s comment section, then you can rest assured a large portion of thoughtful, well cited posts on this topic by you and other commentators were “whacked” as a result of readers flagging your posts over the course of those few hours you mentioned.
The extreme hot button nature of this topic allows the moderators, at least in their own mind, to feel confident that they will get away with such blatant actions of opinion suppression, because they reason that sufficiently few people will have the nerve to openly complain about this form of censorship. And how often are they actually proven wrong?
They can also appeal to public sentiment and ‘heart string pulling’ by claiming that posts which go against the popular narrative are “insensitive” to abuse victims (more likely referring to “professional victims” who take on a whole social identity of Sex Abuse Victim), and could inadvertently function as “triggers” to those who say they were utterly traumatized by sexual abuse, thus forcing them to re-live the abuse again, etc.
Whether the mods who defend censorious actions on this basis actually agree with the above or not is likely moot to them. When it comes to “taboo” subjects like this, they simply do not find honoring free expression of ideas worth getting dragged through the mud in the right-wing and mainstream press by getting accused of being “pro-pedophile” or “pro-abuse,” or of “condoning abuse” or being “insensitive to abuse victims.”
They likewise know their fellow left-wing outlets will most likely react to these attacks not by defending them, but with either nervous silence or with a cautious, disclaimer type of support for their detractors that goes something like this: “As much as we’re against censorship and support freedom of speech, we still need to show compassion for victims of sexual abuse, and not give ‘comfort’ to those who commit the abuse…”. Of course, that roughly translates as: “Anything logical or scientifically accurate we have to say about this matter will be no match for the sheer emotional force the abuse industry and their beneficiaries will bring to bear against us, and we can’t risk lose the support of the public with a drubbing of this sort.”
In other words, plain and simply, they’re chicken shit when it comes to this topic. This state of affairs is just beginning to show signs of changing thanks to brave souls like Rind, Tromovich, Riegel, Levine, Rooney, Lancaster, and Friemond.
Rooney Lancaster and Friemond? Do you have any sources on them?
Chelsea Rooney is an author and genuine feminist (not one of those political misandrists posing as one) who wrote the 2014 novel Pedal, which deals directly with pedophilia in a surprisingly open-minded manner:
http://caitlin-press.com/our-books/pedal/
I recently reviewed that novel in a guest blog for TOC Heretic:
https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/at-last-the-paedophile-as-hero/
Roger Lancaster is a psychologist who authored the recent book Sex Panic and the Punitive State, an unflinchingly frank critique of the ongoing sex abuse hysteria and the corruption of Western values by the victimology platform:
http://www.amazon.com/Panic-Punitive-State-Roger-Lancaster-ebook/dp/B004LROCFC/ref=sr_1_1_twi_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425843085&sr=1-1&keywords=sex+panic+and+the+punitive+state
Carin Freimond earned her masters degree in sociology by writing an extraordinarily well-researched and heavily nuanced thesis on pedophilia and hebephilia called Navigating the Stigma of Pedophilia, which you can download as a free PDF file here:
http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Navigating_the_Stigma_of_Pedophilia:_The_Experiences_of_Nine_Minor-Attracted_Men_in_Canada_by_Carin_Marie_Freimond
Btw, Mr. Pedo-Man, just wondering: Is your handle a riff on the popular song Mr. Piano Man? If so, very ingenious! 🙂
Is your handle a riff on the popular song Mr. Piano Man? No not even sure if I’ve heard of that; Though the music is probably familiar — I’m more of a dance- metal – Industrial metal – rock and classic fan – does that track fit with any of them? If so,shame on me! The way the charts are repeated gets on my nerves,especially as I like to train — Sam Smith and adverts are too much at times.
Thought those names were familiar — Now you’ve reminded me where from thanks.
Actually, The Piano Man (not sure how my memories incorrectly inserted the “Mr.” in there) is an oldie classic from Billy Joel that is quite far from the genres you mentioned. It’s a very mellow and melancholy tune that really gets the emotions going:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEPV4kolz0
And you’re very welcome for the links! 🙂
“these things can mean pretty much any topic the moderating team finds particularly offensive, either to themselves, or predict will be viewed as such by a large portion of their readers.”
Unfortunately, this is the rational thing for them to do. Their job is make money, which requires pleasing lots of readers. This means keeping their comments section in order as a fragrant, well-tamed garden which, though overflowing with manure, can’t allow destructive influences in to clear the bullshit out. While each newspaper may want to promote unfettered intellectual discussion; it knows that if it does so half its readership will flock to a competitor. Thus, it’s in no one’s interest to be the first to uncensor. Once again, Capitalism and Game Theory combine to screw us over.
“could inadvertently function as “triggers””
If the comment is under an article unrelated to CSA one could simply preface it with “Note: this comment discusses underage sexuality” and be done with it. That’s the point of a trigger warning: the moderator cannot in good faith claim that your comment is dangerous to others if those others are informed of any dangers upfront. On their own heads be it. Of course, if the article was about CSA, I think that alone sufficiently warns all comers of what to expect in the comments.
(Of course, if the mod isn’t acting in good faith, you’re fucked either way.)
BTW: Besides the links you provided to Mr Pedo Man, can you think of any scientific studies which investigate the reaction of children to intergenerational sex (other than Rind et al, of course)? Other commenters should feel free to answer this request.
I’m currently reading through Judith Levine’s “Harmful to Minors” and my curiosity was piqued this morning by Levine’s mention of the work of Allie Kilpatrick, whose answer to the problem ‘How can we even know what is [sexually] harmful [to young people]?’ was to ask them.
Levine goes on:
“Have them describe their sexual experiences, without prelabeling them as abuse. In 1992 Kilpatrick published the results of a study based on a thirty-three page questionaire about childhood sexual experiences, administered to 501 women from a variety of […] backgrounds. Instead of employing the morally and emotionally freighted phrase ‘sexual abuse’, she asked specific questions: How old were you, how often, with whom did you have sex? Did you initiate or did the other person? What acts did you engage in […]? Was it pleasurable, voluntary, coerced? How did you feel later?
“Kilpatrick found that 55 percent of her respondents had had some kind of sex as children […] Of these 17 percent felt the sex was abusive, and 28 percent said it was harmful. But (quoting Kilpatrick) ‘the majority of young people who experience some kind of sexual behaviour find it pleasurable, They initiated it and didn’t feel much guilt or any harmful consequences,’ she told me. What about age? (Kilpatrick again) ‘My research showed that difference in age made no difference’ in the women’s memories of feelings during their childhood sexual experiences or in their lasting effects.”
Her research is published as “Long-Range Effects of Child and Adolescent Sexual Experiences: Myths, Mores, Menaces”.
It seems to both be well respected and have been received with the stunned silence that bodes well – one review warns potential readers:
“This book will be disturbing to many readers. The assumption that all children are “damaged” by their experiences is challenged by Kilpatrick’s finding that 38% of the adult respondents reported the sexual experiences as children to be “pleasant” while only 25% reported them to be “unpleasant.” Kilpatrick also found that, although the majority of the women stated that the experience was initiated by the partner, for many (23% of the children 0-14 years and 39% of adolescents 15-17 years) the women reported having been the initiator. Another surprising finding was that only 4% of the respondents reported that they would have liked to have had counseling.”
Anyway – it’s on my reading list and Amazon sell it and there’s an e-book version.
Thank you for posting this source, Lensman. One of the important things about it is that it puts further paid to the continued myth propagated even by some prominent members of the MAP community that girls on average are much more likely to experience inherently negative effects from fully consensual sexual contact with adults than their male counterparts. As previously noted by me, this is often based on a casual reading of the Rind Report’s preliminary results only, without bothering to go on and read the entire meta-analysis, specifically pp. 31-32, where Rind’s team sought to discover precisely why there was that initial gender-based disparity… only to find out that the initial female sampling had a disproportionate amount of non-consensual cases – most often of the incestuous category – compared to the boys. Once that disparity was accounted for, the results were “much more homogeneous.”
Too many BLer’s – though far from all, and much less today than during the previous decade, don’t get me wrong – jumped on this and used it as an excuse to consider emancipation of boys a “different agenda” entirely than the issue of girl emancipation, and refused to work with their GLer counterparts in the pro-choice community for that reason, were very icy with them in their infrequent interactions, and did nothing to alleviate the heavy marginalization of research in the realm of intergenerational liaisons regarding man/girl love. Additionally, they refused to look up these other research sources – including Sharon Thompson (see Chapter 7 of her book Going All the Way – http://www.amazon.com/Going-All-Way-Teenager-Pregnancy/dp/0809050218/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-1&qid=1426135283 and Kilpatrick here – who made it clear from the onset to distinguish consensual liaisons from those that were coerced and unwanted with their female interviewees.
I’m betting one or more regular commentators here are saying, “Geez, is Dissident on about that again?” Dissident’s response: “Yes, I am indeed on about it again, because this ignorant bias within the MAP community itself is still an ongoing matter which serves as a needless barrier towards greater unity among BLer’s and GLer’s BLer’s and GLer’s. It prevents all MAPs from presenting a full united front for the emancipation of all younger people (regardless of gender) and in favor of the legitimization of all expressions of consensual intergenerational romance (whether it be man/boy; man/girl; woman/girl; woman/boy, etc.). How can we expect to seek equality and understanding amongst the greater society for both us and the youths we love if we’re actively destroying bridges within our own community?”
A hearty “Here, here!” from me.
Just one small problem:
>…based on a casual reading of the Rind Report’s preliminary results only, without bothering to go on and read the entire meta-analysis, specifically pp. 31-32,
Could you please quote an exact phrase or sentence from the beginning of the section in question? I recollect you mentioned this point last year but I was unable to pin down with certainty which passage you meant. There are various versions in circulation, with variable pagination.
As requested, here are the three paragraphs of primary importance from pp. 31-32 of the Rind Report:
[TOC: Thanks, Dissident. I have deleted the long quote from Rind as the thread has become too narrow. Readers can see it as part of Dissident’s very extensive essay linked below. To locate the start of the three paras in question, search for “A chi-square test”. ]
For anyone who wants to see my full multi-section article for Newgon where I originally mentioned this research, “The Importance of Truth” – which includes my full analysis of this and other aspects of the Rind Report as one part of it to put this quote into better context – you can find it here: https://www.newgon.com/wiki/Essay:The_Importance_of_Truth
I completely agree, and that book looks fascinating. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Ohh… and I forgot to mention “The Trauma Myth” By Susan Clancy – I feel that this is a hugely important book which brings a lot of clear thinking and reason to explaining why consensual adult-child sensual/sexual interactions seem to often lead to ‘traumatised’ adults.
Clancy’s book is incredibly important indeed, and she was quite courageous to write it. She suffered at least as much as Rind et al. did for standing up for what she sees as scientifically verifiable truth despite how emotionally and politically unpopular it is, including what amounts to professional exile in South America. I give her full credit for making this Galileo-ish sacrifice.
With these accolades, however, please permit me to mention that Clancy – at least at this point in time – viciously loathes MAPs, still has a Victorian attitude towards youth sexuality and capability, and has a blatant misandrist streak in her. For specific examples, you might want to read my detailed analysis of her interview about her book by Thomas Rogers that I wrote for Newgon back in 2009: It is heavily sourced, and includes many direct quotes from Clancy during that interview.
https://www.newgon.com/wiki/Essay:The_Trauma_Myth–My_Analysis_Of_The_Susan_Clancy_Interview
“With these accolades, however, please permit me to mention that Clancy – at least at this point in time – viciously loathes MAPs, still has a Victorian attitude towards youth sexuality and capability, and has a blatant misandrist streak in her. ”
Yes, I found reading “The Trauma Myth” both an illuminating experience and a frustrating one. I wondered if she’d ‘bottled it’, if she’d realised that her findings would never get out unless she pacified the mob by failing to draw those conclusions to which her research had been leading her.
But, if as you say, she still holds unreconstructed knee-jerk attitudes it won’t be the first time that a scientist who has done good research fails to draw the correct conclusions from it – it’s lucky for her that we are around to niftily wield Occam’s Razor and to draw clear conclusions from her research rather than the muddy fudge that she ends her book with 😉
Thanks for the the link to your analysis – I look forwards to reading it.
Theo Sandfurt’s study is one that comes immediately to mind (in regards to boys, at least). I believe I mentioned Sharon Thompson’s already (though that was just part of her multi-faceted study of young girl sexuality as discussed in her excellent book Going All the Way; but it works as a girl-centric study). IPCE is a good place to look for more such info.
This is why when I post a comment somewhere that I suspect will be censored, or (more rarely) see a good comment I suspect is about to be censored, I copy it and save it on my own computer where the censors can’t get at it. I know it doesn’t solve the problem of alternative voices being silenced but it does mean I can vent while ensuring my work isn’t completely erased.
This reminds me. There is some saying about silencing the truth to prevent it from getting out. This is why some years back there was a strong push by “child protectors” to shut down any blog with a pro-paedophile stance. As far as I remember it was very successful on Google’s blog sites, all the while thoe same “child protectors” wrote terrible blogs filled with hate, violence, slander, etc. The game has ended, Lensman. There is very little left to “debate” except how to allow paedosexuality and child sexuality to be together. The only problem is getting that truth out there. There is a lot of power that will be removed if it is allowed, so this fight [won’t] end easily.
[TOC: I added the “won’t”, which presumably gives the intended meaning.]
“a requirement that the term “under-age sex” should be replaced with “child rape”.”
Well, shit. I can’t say I’m surprised but I’m definitely pissed off by the attempt to replace accurate, emotionally neutral terms with dysphemisms. Grrr.
“the main result will be to further discourage anyone from working with children”
Exactly. That’s the first thing I thought of. Policy makers continue to not understand incentive structures – or at least hope that the voters they pander to will be game theoretically ignorant.
“way too gay for my taste.”
Your tastes are straight? Never would have guessed.
>Your tastes are straight? Never would have guessed.
I am 50-50 bisexual where kids are concerned but I have never felt much connection with adult gay culture, unlike many of my old PIE friends.
I see. What about heterosexuals? I feel an affinity to other lesbians but I suspect you couldn’t say the same for yourself 😛
You sent me back to my well-thumbed, out of date dictionary with your use of the word ‘dysphemisms’ – thanks for that – you’ve given me one word to use where before I’d have had to use a couple of sentences.
Which sort of brings me back to a bit of a preoccupation, which Tom’s post and you comment touch on – the extent to which we heretics have to argue our case using the language of our opponents. And how the language of our opponents is tailored to hamper any consideration of alternative narratives.
The example of ‘underage sex’ being replaced with ‘child rape’ is a particularly egregious example – serving, as it does, to manically fan hysteria and dilute and expand the meaning of the word ‘rape’ to the point where a kiss, a tickle or a stroke is imbued with the same violence and depravity as forced penetration. But that is, of course, the aim of those who are seeking to impose this newspeak – to muddy the water and make clear thinking that much more difficult.
Another example which I have to address in all conversations or discussions on the subject with non-heretics is the word ‘sex’. People read/hear/imagine that paedophiles ‘want sex with children’. For most teleios ‘sex’ is almost a synonym for ‘intercourse’ – and even if an teleio includes the concept of ‘foreplay’ in his or her understanding of the word ‘sex’ – the ‘play’ is still ‘fore-‘ i.e. defined as an activity that leads up to intercourse.
So ‘paedophiles want to have sex with children’ means to pretty much all teleios (including some very enlightened and open-minded ones) that ‘paedophiles want to fuck children’.
But we don’t have a word that covers ‘whatever it is paedophiles want to do with children’ – we are almost cornered into using the word ‘sex’, with all the misleading implications of that word, because otherwise we’re obliged to use long convoluted sentences and phrases, packed with qualifiers, each time we want to refer to whatever it is we want to do with children. Our thinking becomes overwhelmed and cluttered as does the communication of our ideas.
I try to use the word ‘sensuality’ etc as much as possible as I think that it describes better what we wish to share with the children we love. But whereas and adult can have ‘sex’ with another adult, a paedophile can’t have ‘sense’ with a child. The language doesn’t neatly conceptualise our thoughts and desires.
Sometimes, when I argue/debate on paedophilia and child-love I realise that I’m like someone with the task of turning some derelict, polluted waste-land into a garden- the overwhelming work isn’t the planting of flowers and artful landscaping, but the removal of brambles, rusted hulls of cars, plastic debris and dumped toxic chemicals i.e. the real work is in clearing out the evident crap out of people’s understanding of the issues – once that’s been done it’s plain sailing.
There should be a word for ‘a child who loves an adult’, their should be a word for ‘an adult-child couple’, there should be a word that describes and encapsulates the sensual interactions that can happen between an adult and a child, there should be a word for that thing that very young little girls do when they feel frisky when they pull up their shirts and show you their bellies…
It’s an important part of our struggle to create a language for ourselves – a vocabulary that describes our feelings, desires, fears and experiences, and those of the children we love. Until we have this we will be forever having to clear out the crap from not only other’s minds, but from our own. He who controls language controls what people can think.
>He who controls language controls what people can think.
If I were starting out again as a young activist, this is where I would begin.
I hope any such efforts, in collaboration with others, would go better than last time though. One of my many big mistakes was trying to develop “paedophilia” beyond the medical world in which the word had been conceived, and to which it was then confined, into a positive identity. We were attempting to shape the language, but if we made any difference at all it was not of the kind we hoped for.
The trick, perhaps, is not just to fasten upon the right word, such as “gay” instead of homosexual”, but to get it into circulation. I suppose it helped that “gay” was already in circulation in the culture of gay bars, etc., before it was ever taken up by activists in their conscious promotion of a group identity and a language of resistance.
Anyway, you’re right about the brambles, rusted hulks, etc., Lensman, and you put it very well!
If there’s one thing I wish trans-activists would do, it’s come up with terms for “male-bodied” and “female-bodied” that don’t imply a gender. I’m male-nothing but there’s no language to reflect that. XY?
If I’m lucky enough to get two wishes, I want non-disgusting words to label the two clusters of trans-females that tend to exist. The bi-modal distributions WRT femininity, sexual orientation, personal interests, age of transition, etc seem to be real enough. Ray Blanchard labels these clusters “homosexual transsexuals” and “autogynephilic transexuals”. Most trans-activists act like there are no clusters.
Unfortunately, Blanchard’s labels have icky connotations and I can’t use them in good faith. WTF is a ‘homosexual’ transsexual? If anything I’m homosexual – a lesbian. WTF is ‘autogynephilia’? I’ve never been aroused by the thought of my own body – female or otherwise. As long as no one else is coming up with good labels, I’m just going to call “homosexual transsexuals” and “autogynephilic transsexuals” A-trans and B-trans.
~Jasmine; AKA the B-trans XY formerly known as James
>WTF is ‘autogynephilia’? I’ve never been aroused by the thought of my own body – female or otherwise.
Not you, but others may fit the description although it’s hard to imagine anyone falling in love with the label except perhaps the scientist who attaches it.
There is also autopedophilia, which I’ll give in its American spelling as I think it was either Blanchard or Mike Bailey who first used the term. Bailey speculated in an article maybe 10 years ago that Michael Jackson was an autopedophile, which is why he was keen to review my book on Jackson’s sexuality when it came out five years ago.
Leaving Jackson out of it, because the evidence in his case for autopedophilia is actually as slim as the man himself was, I can tell you I have known several guys, and even a woman, who *do* fit the bill. These are guys who might be middle-aged and bald but nevertheless strongly identify as boys, not men, and like to wear kids’ clothes even though there is an obvious problem with the size aspect. Some are so strongly attached to this idea of themselves that they risk humiliation by wearing children’s clothes (or childlike in style at least) in public. The most obvious element of this (for men) is wearing short trousers. While that would be nothing unusual in hot countries, it looks distinctly eccentric in an English winter.
As for *arousal* to self, or to the notion of self when presented as a child, I am not sure how that works. Not very efficiently, I’d have thought, because a man dressed up as a child can look convincing (to a neutral observer, at least) only in very rare cases of arrested physical development. In most cases the attempt would be a mere travesty in every sense. Indeed, I am not sure that even these autopedophiles themselves would suggest otherwise. In my (limited) experience they do not find themselves sufficient as sexual partners: they definitely desire sexual relationships with other boys (or girls in the case of female autopedophiles) and they desire real boys not middle-aged “boys”.
Interestingly, Tom, I am one of those hebephiles who identifies that way, specifically as a young heterosexual adolescent male (not an actual child) despite chronologically approaching middle age. I have heard it referred to as “autopedophila” (or “autohebephilia”) on some of the MAP fora, but I was also told that term is specifically aimed at individuals who have an erotic interest in themselves in the role of a child (or teen, etc.). I have no such erotic self-interest in the role; I simply identify as a young adolescent boy because emotionally and socially, I have not lost any of the interests or general modes of thinking that I had back then. Granted, I’ve evolved greatly in terms of self-esteem and emotional self-control since then, but I do not consider that an “adult” attribute per se, since back in middle and high school I knew plenty of peers who had a lot of self-esteem and emotional stability that I was only to develop many years later. I think saying that it’s “natural” to have low self-esteem as a pubescent or adolescent, but much less common to lack it as an adult are examples of stereotyping that do not take individual circumstances and experiences into concern, but that’s a whole other topic it was simply apropos to touch upon for a moment here.
I’ve seen a few forums use other terms to denote this age identity “dysphoria” to denote those who identify as a much younger person, but do not experience erotic inclinations towards themselves in that role. These terms certainly do need to be clarified at some point.
Further, my feelings for other boys in that actual age group is one of pure social kinship and identification, not erotic interest. Those feelings are reserved for girls in that age group, but not all of them, as I’m obviously not romantically interested in every young female I lay eyes upon; but the sense of social kinship holds for those individuals too, of course. So this phenomenon is by no means purely one that operates with homosexual inclinations. That can be a factor, of course, but it seems the sense of strong inner social identification is what appears to be paramount.
So do I make an effort to dress like an adolescent? I certainly do not dress stereotypically “old,” but really, how I dress now doesn’t set me apart from the average guy my age in any major way – at least not in regards to American fashion.
But since I obviously have to confine all of my activities – social, professional, and certainly romantic – to the “adult world,” and I treasure my friends and work within that world, I still feel “out of place.” I know youth culture as created for youths by adults is often vapid and puerile (by design, of course), but I still identify with the modifications made of it by the youths themselves. So to someone like me, the extreme age segregation practiced by modern Western and Northern cultures is a constant source of anxiety for me, as I feel “stuck” in a world that I perceive as nice and important to visit, but is nevertheless not “home.”
Now, I’m glad my civil rights are honored due to my chronological age, and I’m glad I lack the restrictions on my social life that young adolescents have to contend with, don’t get me wrong about any of that. Nevertheless, I still simultaneously feel as if I’ve lost as much as I’ve gained, and of course the freedoms I’ve gained from my legal adulthood sometimes seem a bit hollow to me since my adult status has come with a new set of restrictions that force me to limit my overall social contact to people whom I identify less with socially (in terms of friendships).
Trust me, it’s a major pain in the arse when I want to go to an amusement park, or a concert, or play laser tag, and for the most part all my fellow adult friends want to do is just “relax” by sitting at home with a beer in hand and talking about whatever happened to annoy them that day for hours on end. The fact that my love life is constrained to those whom I find considerably less attractive on all levels than the young ladies I would prefer being able to openly court and associate with in that way is something whose difficulty in dealing with I do not have to elucidate. I don’t mean to offend anyone by saying this (I’m just being honest), but because of this situation, I do not feel flattered when a middle aged woman flirts with me; instead, I feel both reviled (because I cannot derive pleasure from physical intimacy with such a “mature” woman) and embittered on an emotional level since these instances of flirtation serve to remind me of how far I am in “status” from the group of people I most identify with. I detest having to hurt the feelings of any older women in such circumstances, but I also detest the lack of understanding and vitriol I will typically receive if I tell them the truth.
Of course, many MAPs – both pedo and hebe – do not identify as children or young adolescents, instead identifying clearly as adults. But those MAPs who have this age disparate feeling of identity may have some unique emotional and social difficulties in dealing with our situation for obvious reasons. We likely represent a sub-category of MAPs that are much more deserving of research and value-neutral study than has been provided up to now.
Thanks for this, Dissident.
Well, one keeps on learning! We MAPs are very far from all being much of a muchness, that’s for sure!
That’s very interesting! I have come across a few accounts that sound like yours. One GirlChatter said he was attracted to 10-year-old girls when he was 12 and remained attracted to younger girls as he grew older. Though he was in a relationship with an adult woman, his sexual ideal was a girl of 14-15, but when he thought of girls this age he dreamed less of full-blown sex and more of being together, making out, feeling young again. One of the men interviewed for The Child-Lovers, a social worker attracted to boys of around 14, said he felt that in some ways he was a Peter Pan who had not grown up emotionally. Another boy-loving man interviewed for Chi-Keung Li’s The Main Thing is Being Wanted said almost exactly the same thing, and a man interviewed for the article Men Loving Boys Loving Men, a teacher attracted to pubertal boys, had many more boy than adult friends and said “I can have as much fun with a kid running around in a field as I did when I was fifteen or sixteen.” Benjamin Britten considered himself a 13-year-old boy all his life, and Baden-Powell said that the best scoutmasters were “boy-men” who had not wholly grown up.
I also remember a rather sorrowful post by a BoyChatter who said his emotional ideal was a boy of 10 and his sexual ideal a boy of 12. He often dreamed of living in a world populated only by boys aged 10-12 and he imagined himself as a boy when he masturbated. But then, many boy-lovers have the experience of sex and close friendships with boys during their own boyhood, and then as adults have to live with sex with boys being forbidden and close friendships, even casual contacts, with boys being difficult and risky. It’s understandable that they would look back on their boyhood with deep emotional and sexual nostalgia. A clearer case of identification is Michael Davidson, a journalist who wrote two frank autobiographies, The World, The Flesh and Myself and Some Boys. (I expect you may have read them already.) Davidson was exclusively attracted to boys 12-18, with 14-16 being ideal, and had sexual and emotional relationships with many boys in a lot of different countries. Though he had good adult male friends and was close to his sister, he regarded himself as a lifelong adolescent. On the other hand, Peter Gamble, author of The More We Are Together: Memoirs of a Wayward Life, was attracted to boys in much the same age range but seems to have loved them, and devoted his life to them as a teacher, without identifying with them.
As you say, an area much in need of further research.
“Not you, but others may fit the description although it’s hard to imagine anyone falling in love with the label [ie: autogynephilia] except perhaps the scientist who attaches it.”
In all my roaming across the internet I’ve only rarely encountered anyone who claimed to be aroused by the thought of themself with a differently-sexed body (curse the lack of gender-neutral sex classifications!). Of those, the majority seemed to consider themselves crossdressers or transvestites rather than transgender, per se. Most transwomen – including those with B-trans-typical qualities – claimed to have the same internal experience which I do: feeling a strong sense of wrongness associated with one’s sex-linked physical features and with being seen as a member of the ‘wrong’ gender.
Of course, I’d expect Dr Blanchard and Dr Bailey to explain this by saying that they (or, rather, we) are lying to avoid being considered perverts. On the one hand, I find this amusing since I’d be the last person to deny being a “pervert” – even if I lack this particular “perversion”.
On the other hand, I take issue with this on scientific grounds. Positing that our beliefs and behaviours are caused by a sexual drive which most of us say doesn’t exist seems to beg the question. If this drive exist and the people who actually experience it first-hand are denying it for status reason – how can we even know the drive exists without first assuming its existence and then saying that everyone who claims not to have one is a liar?
In economics we’re allowed to say that people either lie about or are mistaken about their beliefs/motives in the case of “revealed preferences”. These are cases where people’s observed actions directly contradict their claimed motives. In these cases the simpler explanation of the observed phenomenon is one which assumes the agent is mistaken because the explanation given by the agent cannot fit the observed facts. This additional point of the agent being confused strains against Occam’s razor by adding complexity but since the theory that the agent is reliable is even more clearly flawed, it still wins on the grounds of being the simplest explanation available.
Transpeople have an explanation for our internal motives which doesn’t seem to contradict our observed behaviour. In fact, taking us at our word, our behaviour seems to follow quite logically. Under these circumstances it’s necessary to use Occam’s razor to strip off the extra bit about us lying since it lacks explanatory power.
I take no issue with the idea that MTFs cluster into 2 broad groups. My problem is with the proposed mechanism. You can be ignorant of the details which underlie a system while still making correct observations about it on the surface. Newtonian Mechanics correctly plots a bullet’s trajectory while being ignorant of Einstein’s discoveries regarding the nature of gravity and acceleration. Likewise, Blanchard’s typology does a fair job of figuring out what transwomen do but seems relatively clueless as to why we do it.
A witch doctor can diagnose a seizure. A psychologist can diagnose a transsexual. However, a seizure isn’t caused by demonic possession and a transexual isn’t caused by erotic perversion.
>Blanchard’s typology does a fair job of figuring out what transwomen do but seems relatively clueless as to why we do it
I look forward to seeing you make a politely persuasive input expanding upon this in due course on Sexnet. This could be before the end of the year but it would surely be wise to read The Man Who Would Be Queen in the interim if you haven’t yet caught up with it. I see there is a Kindle edition, which may help.
I was recently able to snag 2 hours and skim the whole thing. I intend to revisit it in depth to ensure I haven’t overlooked or misrepresented anything.
I’m not sure how I’d go about beginning such a dialogue on Sexnet and in the following months I doubt I’ll learn how to make it not accidentally sound like an attack. 17 years have barely softened the bluntness inherent in my autism and I doubt a few months will teach me the somewhat miraculous skill of broadly criticizing an academic’s work (especially work they’ve been ceaselessly criticized for before) without wounding their feelings. If I could have such a conversation with Dr Bailey without starting a war it’ll be far more to his credit than my own.
>I was recently able to snag 2 hours and skim the whole thing.
Good!
>I intend to revisit it in depth to ensure I haven’t overlooked or misrepresented anything.
Better!
>If I could have such a conversation with Dr Bailey without starting a war
Best! – I have every confidence in both of you!
LOL. Thank you, daddy 😛
You certainly have more confidence in me than I do in myself. All I can say is I’ll try my best. I don’t argue for status so I don’t believe it’ll profit me to upset people and, as such, will aim at not upsetting them. That doesn’t mean I’ll succeed.
I’ve mostly been ascribing the lack of bad feelings on this site to a marvelous streak of luck plus the good sense not to converse while depressed. In every other case I can remember I managed to make everyone hate me within three months and got kicked out by the moderator. My expectation is that being muzzled for three months on Sexnet will boost my survivability to six months. However, maybe the way the prophecy will fulfill itself is by having my first post be the one that damns me. Who knows? I simply lack any optimism.
(This is also part of the reason I don’t post on SSC or Less Wrong. I can’t stand the thought of my idols inevitably hating me.)
BTW: I’m depressed tonight. Could you tell? 😛
Omg, I had no idea that Jasmine was posting on Sexnet! Awesome!! You go, girl!! 😀
@Dissident: LOL. Thank you. I’m not posting yet. I have to lurk for at least 3 months first. But simply lurking is rather illuminating in itself 🙂
If you can, get ahold of Anne Lawrence’s Men Trapped in Men’s Bodies: Narratives of Autogynephilic Transsexualism. It’s meticulously researched and has convinced me that Blanchard’s autogynephilic subtype does exist and is relatively common. I don’t know, however, whether I accept his view that the subtypes he calls homosexual and autogynephilic are the only two kinds of MtFs there are. Testimony from many people, including you, suggests that there may be a third type.
Anne Lawrence says that a survey of male undergraduates in the US found that 1% of them had cross-dressed in the previous year and a further 2% had thought about it. This suggests that autogynephilia may be a lot more common than we think. The impression I have from conversations with heterosexual men is that it’s not uncommon for men to have a touch of autogynephilic feeling, to be lightly brushed by autogynephilia, rather than having the full-blown sexual orientation. I would guess that this is also the case with CLs. I get the impression that a fair few BLs remove their body hair. One 13-year-old interviewed for Boys on their Contacts with Men complained, when asked about negative aspects of the sex he was having with his older partner, that the man’s pubic area prickled because he shaved it! A man interviewed for Wilson and Cox’s The Child-Lovers explained that he was exclusively attracted to boys 10-14 with 11 being ideal and that he utterly loathed all body hair, including his own. He also said that he felt he could talk to boys on their own level, but could not communicate well with adults. A third man, however, said that his sexual ideal was a 13-year-old boy with no facial hair but that his own beard didn’t matter because facial hair on adults was irrelevant. No autohebephilia there then…I don’t know whether it’s as common for girl-lovers to remove their body hair. I have, however, read of GLs impersonating little girls in chat-rooms in a not-explicitly-sexual way, but have not read of BLs impersonating boys. Perhaps these are necessarily different ways of obtaining the same thrill. A GL can’t make his body look like that of a prepubescent girl just by shaving it, because there’s the question of the genitals, whereas a BL probably doesn’t get much of a kick out of impersonating a boy because he’s already been one.
Anne Lawrence and other writers have also pointed out that many autogynephiles idealise women as being objectively better people than men and also idealise women’s lives as being objectively and overall better than men’s because, for instance, women are socially permitted a greater range of emotional expression. Many child-lovers idealise children and childhood in much the same way, something that comes through very strongly here: https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/li.htm. Of course, another explanation for this idealising tendency could be that the nostalgia for childhood that nearly everyone feels at some point is heightened by sexual desire for children, by the adult world’s rejection of that desire and by the forbidden nature of adult sexual contacts with children. Other adults misunderstand; only kids are sympathetic to the child-lover’s feelings.
Ray Blanchard argues that autogynephilia competes with heterosexuality. In his studies, the men with the highest levels of heterosexual attraction were those with an intermediate level of autogynephilic attraction. Those with the highest levels of autogynephilia were not attracted to other people, because their sexual desires were all directed at their idealised female self-image. Autogynephilia also commonly goes into abeyance when an autogynephilic man falls in love with a woman, only to return a few years later when the love becomes less intense. So it could be that the people you met were simply not so autopaedophilic that they couldn’t be attracted to actual children. But I would think that it is harder for an adult to make him- or herself look like a child than for a man to make himself look like a woman.
He means homosexual with reference to what he calls “natal sex”, and maintains that this usage keeps everyone from getting confused. I can sort of see his point…
I wonder if you know the blog ‘On the Science of Changing Sex’? You might enjoy it.
An efficient way to pervert thought is to pervert language by changing the meaning of words. If “paedophile” is used to designate a violent sex maniac intent on raping children ,then there is no word left for someone who loves children.
One way to notice the contemporary distortion of language is to keep old dictionaries. My 1910 dictionary defines “to fondle” as “to treat with tenderness, to caress”, indeed, the word comes from “fond” and is related to “fondness”; up to the end of the 1970’s, dictionaries defined “to fondle” as “to caress”, giving as examples fondling someone’s hair, fondling a cat. Now the word means sexually touching. Also the word “to molest” was defined in my 1910 dictionary as “to annoy, to disturb, to vex”; it says that it comes from the French “molester”; my 1975 English-French dictionary gives for “to molest” the same meaning as “molester” in French, namely “to annoy, to vex”, but also “to brutalize” (in particular to brutalize in public). The French word has kept the same double meaning of annoyance and brutality, while in English the word is now used for non-violent sexual contact with an underage person.
“If “paedophile” is used to designate a violent sex maniac intent on raping children ,then there is no word left for someone who loves children.”
I helped form (and name) the group “Virtuous Pedophiles”. That choice of name has drawn a fair bit of heat from various sides. But the reasoning for its choice was exactly this observation. In retrospect, “Celibate Pedophiles” would have been better. But some formation like that is the only concise way I could think of to reclaim language. People who think “pedophile” means “child molester” read “virtuous pedophiles” and have the dissonance right there in their face in two words. (And for those of you who want to argue that adult-child sex is not always child molestation and laws should be changed to allow it, well, that’s an elaboration that is nowhere near where the public is).
There is some US movie from the 1940s or before where some adolescent girl says to a man approximately, “I don’t want to be made love to”. In modern usage it would be shocking, but at that time it also could naturally mean saying nice and sweet and romantic things to, which is indeed what is at stake.
Sexual meanings are like a black hole. If a phrase starts to take on a sexual meaning, it generally kills all other meanings. “Gay”, “Intercourse”, “ejaculate”… Some are strong enough to survive, I guess. People named “Richard” are still known as “Dick” (I think). We have the name “John” in spite of the “loo” meaning. And naturally “come” is so central to the English language that it can’t be zapped completely, but you’d better keep it out of ambiguous contexts.
(So educate the public.) Both ‘Virtuous’ and ‘Celibate’ exclude the whole middle ground of those who allow sexual relations of some sort between adults and children (‘Virtuous’ would appear to exclude the thought of such relations.)
I’m more in favour of keeping the common word and bending the meaning in this case.
“And for those of you who want to argue that adult-child sex is not always child molestation and laws should be changed to allow it, well, that’s an elaboration that is nowhere near where the public is”
How do you define a “child” ? To what ages does that correspond ? Under 12 ? Under 18 ? How do you measure maturity ? By age or by testing ?
In France, the law and a large art of opinion consider that consensual sex between an adult and a 15 year-old is not “child molestation”, and many people think that the US laws on age of consent and on sex offenders are just crazy, they should be changed.
In Spain and Japan, age of consent is 13.
ethane72
I think that we’re stuck with the popular discourse using the word ‘Paedophile’. The battle lines are clearly drawn around it and this is the battle we need to fight – it’s a battle over a word, but it’s a battle where everything is at stake since the competing conceptions of child sexuality, paedophilia, ‘the paedophile’, child-adult sensual relationships all pivot around that word.
To use new words when we’ve already got this one smacks of perpetual retreat, or trying to euphemise our problems out of existence (and, after all, it is not THEIR word, it is OURS!).
But qualifying the word ‘paedophile’, as you do, can have the function of adding a nuance to it that the uninformed would be unaware of – I appreciate that the abridged argument put forwards by the word ‘Virtuous’ must be a salutory brain-shock for many ‘Nons’ and antis encountering the epithet ‘Virtuous paedophile’. I’m quite fond of ‘ethical paedophilia’ myself…
I agree to a certain extent when you say “And for those of you who want to argue that adult-child sex is not always child molestation and laws should be changed to allow it, well, that’s an elaboration that is nowhere near where the public is”; but what I’d query is to what extent we should be, at the stage we’re at, worrying about being where the ‘public is’ – that’s if we define the ‘public’ as ‘mr and mrs Average’.
My experience (limited and biased as it is) is that there are a lot more ‘Nons’ out there who have more nuanced positions on these issues than they dare make known.
I’ve known, been friends with, and had as colleagues, people who, either years into or years after our acquaintance, have let drop some statement that has made me think “hang on a second! That sounds like something a heretic would think!” and after a careful mutual feeling out process discovered that they held positions that were distincly sceptical of the orthodoxy, and even entirely supportive of our heresy. These have all been ‘Nons’ (though one or two had been drawn into consideration of the issues by an awareness of there being ephebophilic or hebephilic components to their teleiophilic desires).
In fact I suspect that there’s something almost amounting to a ‘critical mass’ of dissenters out there. And the only thing preventing this bubble from bursting is the fear, the same thing that meant that, though myself and these friends/colleagues may have interacted almost daily and argued and discussed a huge range of controversial issues and ideas, this one issue was never ever touched upon.
These people are not the general public, not mr and mrs Average – they’re the free-and-creative thinkers, the debaters, the doubters and the questioners, a kind of intellectual elite. They can be reached and persuaded – and when enough of the most articulate, the most intellectually capable, are supporting our cause things will start moving amongst the general public.
“These people are not the general public, not mr and mrs Average – they’re the free-and-creative thinkers, the debaters, the doubters and the questioners, a kind of intellectual elite. They can be reached and persuaded – and when enough of the most articulate, the most intellectually capable, are supporting our cause things will start moving amongst the general public.”
I wish I shared your optimism about how close we are to a more enlightened societal consensus. But given that (say) Republicans are still a major force in US politics, I can’t be. Maybe I’m aiming for something between the average guy and the free-thinking intellectual — the average person who’s a libertarian on social issues.
“when enough of the most articulate, the most intellectually capable, are supporting our cause things will start moving amongst the general public.”
I feel like you’re skipping steps. After everyone is in agreement then the hard part starts; getting everyone to act sensibly. The problem isn’t just what they know but what they think others know, and what they know that others know that they know, etc. Only once people believe that there is a sufficient degree of controversy (and, more importantly, support for their side) will they say anything. It could be something everyone knows but nobody says.
I feel like there isn’t much support for or acknowledgement of Game Theory around here. Is it that most people have consciously considered and rejected it? That they’re mostly unaware of it? A mixture of both?
Just in case it’s the second, I’ll try to illustrate the above coordination problem with two similar problems I came across via Scott Alexander:
“Bostrom makes an offhanded reference of the possibility of a dictatorless dystopia, one that every single citizen including the leadership hates but which nevertheless endures unconquered. It’s easy enough to imagine such a state. Imagine a country with two rules: first, every person must spend eight hours a day giving themselves strong electric shocks. Second, if anyone fails to follow a rule (including this one), or speaks out against it, or fails to enforce it, all citizens must unite to kill that person. Suppose these rules were well-enough established by tradition that everyone expected them to be enforced.
So you shock yourself for eight hours a day, because you know if you don’t everyone else will kill you, because if they don’t, everyone else will kill them, and so on. Every single citizen hates the system, but for lack of a good coordination mechanism it endures. From a god’s-eye-view, we can optimize the system to “everyone agrees to stop doing this at once”, but no one within the system is able to effect the transition without great risk to themselves.”
&
“There is a certain very curious logic problem which goes as follows:
One hundred people live on a far-off island. Fifty people have blue eyes, and fifty people brown eyes. The islanders have a strange taboo that they may never talk about eye color with one another, and that if anyone ever learns their own eye color, they must commit suicide that night. There are no mirrors or other reflective surfaces on the island, and no one ever talks about it, so it is improbable that anyone will ever learn their own eye color and violate the taboo.
One day an explorer comes to the island and says: ‘At least one person on this island has blue eyes.’ What, if anything, happens?
The answer to the riddle is that fifty days later, all the blue-eyed people on the island commit suicide.”
(Explanation of why here)
I know that the above examples are rather contrived but I’m groping toward a general concept that I tried to convey in my last debate with Dissident. I don’t think this went very well. As such, I’ve decided I’ll change tacks and just fire off parables and see if they stick.
(Apologies to Tom if the examples made this comment too long.)
>(Apologies to Tom if the examples made this comment too long.)
Not too long, although the particular examples used are indeed so contrived, as you admit, that they are perhaps unlikely to persuade anyone of their relevance to the real world. But Game Theory, as I think most of us know, is used a great deal in political and economic theory, and has even entered everyday language – or, at least, the everyday language of media pundits, who are constantly talking of “win-win situations” and “zero-sum games”.
By contrast, here is a simple example from Wikipedia of a real-life political situation in which ordinary people’s behaviour (people who, for the most part, who do not commit suicide out of slavish adherence to arbitrary rules) is definitely and clearly affected by what others think, and demonstrates a coordination problem:
Yes, yes. I do feel stupid seeing this better example. I was specifically groping at a concept related to the movement of information and while this is close to it I think the others were a bit closer. However, they certainly lost in the believably realm. I was kind of assuming that everyone would think the way I do and short cut the examples themselves and go straight to the principles which underlie them without ever considering whether the individual examples were believable. Not a good assumption.
“dilute and expand the meaning of the word ‘rape’ to the point where a kiss, a tickle or a stroke is imbued with the same violence and depravity as forced penetration.”
This sounds a lot like The Worst Argument In The World. Basically, by grouping many different things under one label but having people associate that label with one (central) example, you can tar every member of the category with the same brush. An example as used by a weird variety of conservatives known as Neoreactionaries:
>Label all countries whose leaders claim to act on behalf of the people as “Demotist”.
>Set up the USSR, the PRC under Mao, and Nazi Germany as the central examples of Demotist governments by talking about them a lot.
>Associate civil democracies like the UK, USA, and France with Nazi Germany by having them in the same category.
This rhetorical technique is surprisingly good at making people associate democracy with genocide despite the whole thing being obvious bullshit. Same with “child rape”, which pattern matches to a 5 year old being tied up and forcibly penetrated but most commonly involves 2 teenagers fooling around. It’s amazing how my (20yo) gf can manage to rape me when I’m the one getting the condoms….
“For most teleios ‘sex’ is almost a synonym for ‘intercourse’”
I hate this too. To me sex is so much broader. This is part of the reason I consider the concept of virginity incoherent. For more rants on this topic, check out the sagacious Ozy Frantz.
“There should be a word for ‘a child who loves an adult’”
Teleiophile? Adultophile? Whatever it is, it isn’t in the common lexicon.
~Jasmine; AKA the teleiophile formerly known as James