African explorer Sir Harry Johnston noted that “almost every girl” in east-central Africa ceased to be a virgin “well before puberty”.
Not that he personally knew “almost every girl”, one supposes, and certainly not carnally. Unlike many fellow adventurers back then, in the heyday of empire a hundred years ago, he does not appear to have been a sexual libertarian. He was a careful and talented observer, though, as evidenced by his studies of the flora and fauna of the region, and his knowledge of native culture was regarded as authoritative.
He was among the better colonial governors, too, keen to train and promote African staff. What he shared with his less enlightened colleagues, who felt the black Africans were inherently inferior and needed to be ruled by force, was a firm belief in the superiority of western culture – a superiority that must have seemed obvious from the fact that the British, and others westerners, were the conquerors not the conquered, the rulers, not the ruled. So of course the exotic sexual practices of the “heathens” and “savages” were regarded, like so much else about their “uncivilized” lives, as appalling, and most definitely not to be emulated.
We have done a bit of re-thinking since those days, but not enough. Imperialism is now thoroughly discredited and we are beginning to question the wisdom of global market capitalism – Lensman’s recent articles here on the aetiology of paedophobia, and our Deep Green future have added to what is becoming a vast debate.
Another aspect of this re-thinking, which re-evaluates “primitive” lifestyles more positively, is as yet only in its very early stages, and for the most part remains of fringe interest. One exception (sort of) is Jared Diamond’s book The World until Yesterday, which significantly bears the subtitle What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies? Diamond came to prominence through his hugely successful and rightly acclaimed Guns, Germs and Steel, which provided a profound explanation, rooted in contingencies of geography and climate, as to why westerners became the conquerors and rulers of the world.
Part of its success, I suspect, lies in the fact that its western readers could bask in the satisfaction of being “winners”, even as the book’s contents obliged them to admit that their success had nothing to do with innate superiority. Diamond’s later books, including Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, have faced more resistance: the environmentalist message they promote proved uncomfortable for those who do not wish to face the need for change.
At least Diamond had a substantial readership based on his having already made a name for himself. Others who urge a re-evaluation of non-WEIRD lifestyles remain at the margins. In line with this blog’s mission to promote such non-dominant narratives, Heretic TOC today fanfares the arrival of an important (or so it should be regarded) new article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior: “How Children Learn About Sex: A Cross-Species and Cross-Cultural Analysis”, by clinical psychologist Lawrence Josephs.
In this paper, Josephs draws together, from primatology, anthropology, and the history of childhood sexuality, evidence which supports the hypothesis that throughout most of our evolutionary past children have learned about sex basically by taking part in it, initially through direct observation of parental sex and also, still in early childhood, by engaging in sexual activity themselves, usually with peers but often also with a degree of adult involvement and encouragement. Evolutionary psychology may be all the rage in some quarters, but, says Josephs, contemporary theories of psychosexual development have failed to consider the possibility that young children have an innate disposition to learn in this way. It is a primate-wide trait that is conserved in humans, he says, but has been suppressed in modern societies. In other words, the dogma of childhood sexual “innocence” is a recent imposition that goes against the grain of human nature.
There are echoes here of Bruce Rind’s censored monograph on pederasty, which eventually appeared as a 90-page chapter a couple of years ago in Censoring Sex Research. I critiqued it in The pre-WEIRD world, according to Rind. While there was much to be welcomed in Rind’s work, its gender-specific theme of the man-boy erotic dyad was focused on adult and adolescent sexuality, whereas contemporary society’s investment in “innocence” is expressed primarily through its insistence on the supposed need to protect prepubescent children from sex, whether boys or girls. Yes, there are many who are hell-bent on discouraging even adolescent sex, but only a few deluded souls would argue that adolescents are naturally pre-sexual. This is very much the current mainstream attitude towards younger children, though, even a century after Freud.
In a way, then, Josephs’ contribution is even more fundamental and radical than Rind’s, and it is very good news that his article, far from being censored, has appeared in the most prestigious journal in its field. So how did he go about it?
The idea that concealing sex from children is a species-wide norm is a WEIRD fallacy, he begins. Actually, it is plain weird, as well as WEIRD, because anyone with an ounce of imagination would realise that in the long millennia before the invention of doors and locks, even tiny children would inevitably have seen lots of bonking by their parents and others: it would have been a wild, constantly played spectacular, the internet porn of its day. That did not stop Freud believing exposure to the “primal scene” (i.e., a scene of parental sexuality) was harmful. In his view, it was a vital precondition of “civilized” behaviour that we need to repress and control our libido – including the incestuous “Oedipal” impulse he discerned, which he claimed we feel in early childhood towards our own opposite-sex parents.
It was in 1918 that Freud warned about the primal scene. By 1990, as Josephs points out, the sexologist John Money was proposing that “human beings who are heirs to Western civilization have a long cultural heritage of negative strategies for dealing with juvenile sexual rehearsal play. These are strategies of vandalism that thwart, warp, and distort the normally developing lovemap and make it pathological”. By this time he had some research (Hoyt, 1979) to support him. Soon there was more (Okami et al., 1998), when it was confirmed that witnessing the primal scene does not increase psychopathology. A range of historical research, moreover, is cited to show that concealing parental sexuality from children and prohibiting sexual rehearsal play have only become normative in the West in the last 300 years – research which includes studies appearing in a book recently mentioned on Heretic TOC, George Rousseau’s Children and Sexuality: From the Greeks to the Great War. I have now got hold of it: there is plenty of good stuff.
Much of the evidence that Josephs presents will already be familiar to many heretics here. The value of his paper comes from drawing on a range of disciplines and concisely presenting a case for re-evaluating the current negativity towards children’s early sexual learning and expression. The classic anthropological review remains Patterns of Sexual Behaviour (Ford & Beach, 1951), which I drew on extensively for my own Paedophilia: The Radical Case. Josephs also brings in more recent work, including a review of hunter-gatherer childhoods (Konner 2010), in which it is reported that hunter-gatherer children imitate parental sexual relations in simulated sexual intercourse in relatively small mixed-sex, multi-age play groups.
One point that particularly struck me from Josephs’ sources was this:
“Curiously, hunter-gatherer cultures, like the Hazda or !Kung, that are permissive towards childhood sexuality tend to be fiercely egalitarian and highly respectful of individual autonomy (Boehm, 1999) and do not pressure children to obey authority (Shostak, “A !Kung woman’s memories of childhood” in Lee & DeVore, 1976).”
This ought to be music to the ears of feminists who keep banging on about the need for equality in sexual relationships and fretting over adult power abuse in intergenerational sex. It shows that if we really do start learning from traditional societies, as Diamond urges, they can relax – the kids could be socially empowered as well as enjoying an agreeable childhood.
There is a price to be paid, though. Hunter-gatherer economies favour social equality; relatively acquisitive and competitive agricultural and industrial economies have different social priorities. Ancient Athens at the height of its glory had a democratic, and hence relatively egalitarian, political system, but even in that era the social ethos was one of ferocious competition: pederasty thrived not least because boys who wanted to get on in life needed a lover who was a good mentor, someone who was not equal to himself but far more knowledgeable and authoritative – and, quite possibly, authoritarian. Modern life, too, is intensely competitive. The way forward, however, as outlined by Lensman, could well involve more cooperative, and less competitive, lifestyles.
Getting back to Josephs, his paper addresses not just children’s sexual knowledge and experience with peers but also adult-child sexual touching. He notes a range of cultures in which it appears entirely normal for adults, especially mothers, to masturbate their infant children, especially as a substitute for satisfaction at the breast.
Looking beyond infancy, he reminds us of Malinowski’s conclusion in 1927, based on anthropological evidence, that when it is not socially suppressed we see “a steady and gradual increase of sexuality in the child, the curve rising in a continuous manner without any kink”. There is no Freudian “latency period”, in other words. More recently, Gilbert Herdt and a colleague (Herdt & McClintock, 2000) proposed a stage of psychosexual development between six and ten which they refer to as adrenal puberty as opposed to gonadal puberty. Beginning around six years old, the adrenal gland in both sexes begin to secrete increasing levels of androgens that are associated with the increasing intensity of childhood sexual attractions and desires. Heretic TOC reported this in The magical age of 10? Actually, with the age of puberty currently dropping at the speed of a whore’s drawers, the magical age in question may now be even lower: Josephs points to recent evidence (Palmert et al., 2001; Remer, Boye, Hartmann, & Wudy, 2005), that adrenarche begins as early as three years old, “around the time children begin to engage in sexual rehearsal play” – not to mention, I would add, that boys (or future boys!) have been observed with erections in the womb, and masturbating, as recorded via ultra-sound imagery.
All this leads Josephs to pose a brave and urgent question:
… Exactly what constitutes interpersonally sensitive sexual touching at various ages prior to puberty has yet to be researched. Such research is necessary to understand what kind of childhood sexual touching is traumatogenic and when deprivation of interpersonally sensitive and age appropriate sexual touching becomes pathogenic…
Less bravely, but, hey, he had to get published, the author ducks away from extensive anthropological evidence for normative adult-child sexual conduct in many cultures (Nieto, 2004). He writes:
“… traumatic experiences are most likely when adolescents or adults use pre-pubertal children as sex objects to facilitate orgasm. Such sexual practices do not appear to be normalized in cultures that allow limited playful or soothing fondling of infantile genitalia, observation of parental sexuality, and pre-pubertal playgroup sexual experimentation.”
So is he saying that fondling of infantile genitalia, etc., are not allowed among the Lepcha, for example, where “old men of eighty copulate with girls of eight, and nobody minds”? Or among the Sambia, where all small boys from age six or so are expected to fellate young bachelors? Actually, for men to fellate boys, as opposed to the boys being fellators, is definitely forbidden by the Sambia, so the answer to my query is not entirely obvious. I’d have thought, though, that even with this stricture in mind there would not necessarily be a bar on Sambia mothers fondling their children’s genitalia. Perhaps I should read Herdt’s famous studies of the Sambia more closely…
What I can say with confidence is that Josephs has made an unusual and useful contribution to the literature. Perhaps the best of it is that he has drawn the attention of psychologists, in particular (who read the Archives) to work from other disciplines: a range of inter-disciplinary perspectives is vital if progress is to be made in this complex field.
The importance of re-discovering the normality of children’s sexuality hardly needs to be impressed upon heretics here but it is worth noting the growing evidence of our failure to do so. I see that Freedom of information requests by The Sunday Times last month revealed that on average two “sex crimes” a day were reported last year from schools, two thirds of them “committed” by children, with a number of four- and five-year-olds among the “criminals”: Schools report four-year-olds for sex offences.
MORE MILESTONES PASSED BY HERETIC TOC
I was so busy moderating the comments to Lensman’s wonderful guest blogs recently that I omitted to mention a significant milestone: over 5,000 published comments since Heretic TOC was launched late in 2012. In the two and a half years since then there have been over 150 blogs and well over 180,000 “hits”, with the average running at above 200 per day this year.
The most remarkable feature by far, though, is surely the high proportion of comments that have been substantial and well argued contributions, rather than one-liners, some of them amounting to a blog in their own right. These comments now run to 256 online pages in the administration dashboard, totalling over three quarters of a million words! The blogs themselves, both my own and guest contributions, are usually around the 2,000-word mark, so these have notched up around 300,000 words. The total takes us well past a million words! Heretic TOC may be “not the dominant narrative” but its scale is becoming positively biblical!
teens’ sexual beliefs:
Full URL for Abstract:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2022.810411/abstract
I’ve translated your Childhood “Innocence” is Not Ideal in Ukrainian: https://ext-6094954.livejournal.com/2367.html
Wow! Thank you, Cyril! That’s a big task!
It is just unfortunate that most people in Ukraine probably have other things on their mind at the moment than child-adult sexual relations. We must hope the war can be ended soon.
Interesting, plus answered my thoughts on the matter of observing parental sexual activity.
If I have children, and my wife/partner is as open and broadminded as me, we will *not* hide nudity nor shamefully cover up our lovemaking if interrupted. Indeed, as soon as our child(ren) start naturally masturbating, we might coach the same sex child in perfecting their technique and also pair-bonding with that parent. I want my kids not to suffer the repression that I did and enjoy openingly masturbating throughout their lives in non busy public areas. Just like we don’t toilet ourselves in front of strangers but not hide at home.
“There is no shame, we’re all the same!” 🙂
As far as drawing the line, as mentioned in your post Tom, I won’t use my offspring to climax their parent, but would prefer their mother to playfully touch them when very young. This I am sure will comfort that child and enhance the loving bond with that parent.
I base the above thoughts on a certain individual I know who profoundly benefited from such in her family. She has never rowed, argued, even bickered with her parents and sister. It is bickering, and sibling bullying, that I believe comes from the fear of incest. And as Freud observed, such a thing makes people neurotic.
…although Freud thought incestuous desire had to be “resolved” rather than indulged in order for civilisation to prevail, even if this meant being somewhat neurotic. But there is no reason to leave the last word to Freud on anything.
By the way…
…I did not realize [or just wasn’t thinking] that sharing a direct link to a tweet would embed it into a wordpress comment/page. If that is a concern, of course, delete it…and my apologies.
Second, regarding the stats of this blog…said content honestly deserves to be published into a book, including many of the comments.
I don’t know if you set out intending to do this, but I’m certain the content here easily justifies another book, or two.
…Just my opinion.
…I did not realize [or just wasn’t thinking] that sharing a direct link to a tweet would embed it into a wordpress comment/page. If that is a concern, of course, delete it…and my apologies.
No problem for me.
Second, regarding the stats of this blog…said content honestly deserves to be published into a book, including many of the comments.
The thought has crossed my mind. It’s just a question of finding time to edit and produce such a volume (or two). Glad you feel it would be worth it. Cheers!
Hi Tom.
For what it is worth, I’ve cited your responses to the “child rape porn” allegations, in the #talkwithpedophiles Twitter hashtag.
https://twitter.com/EQFoundation/status/616811419686825984
It’s telling [and predictable] that the person who made those allegations [in an exchange with me, no less…unless you’re talking about a separate incident], pre-emptively blocked you, so you’d not be able to respond directly to their accusation.
#talkwithpedophiles is a project on Twitter, started by a couple of “virtuous pedophiles” members. It’s for promoting social dialogue between pedophiles and the public. A few of us who are decidedly not “virtuous pedophiles” members, decided to embrace this project and help flesh it out a bit. I’m not entirely sure if we are appreciated, or just tolerated…but nobody has asked me to leave, so…
Thanks, Steve, both for the Twitter support and the heads up on #talkwithpedophiles . Might be worth contributions from heretics here.
Thank you for everything you are doing to promote rights for pedophiles. Its a rare man that has your courage.
Good to hear from you Bitshift, and thanks for the encouragement! No courage, unfortunately, just a tremendous inability to shut up 🙂
It’s interesting to find myself reading, at the same time “Children and Sexuality” (Ed. Rousseau) and the translation of the introduction to “Zeig Mal!” (Show Me!), which Will Robinson kindly linked to.
I’m not far enough into the Rousseau to really be able to give a proper opinion about it but I’m finding it confusing and frustrating, especially as I’m just finishing a chapter in this book about ‘child sexuality’ where the ‘children’ concerned are 22 year-old Oxford undergraduates!
The case studies in chapters 2 – 5 have all consisted of cases that come from either criminal law or institutional disciplinary procedures. This is a problem, though an inevitable one since the authors have had to draw on what evidence is available. But this means that the cases considered are defined and viewed as problematic, and presented in a negative context right, from the off.
But worse: because the authors themselves have no narratives available other than the early 21st century WEIRD ‘child abuse’ narrative, they have failed (so far) to reconstruct the attitudes toward child sexuality of the periods and peoples they are investigating. Not surprisingly each chapter so far seems to conclude that the people from all these various historical periods thought very much like an average (uninformed) person would today.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If all sensual or sexual interactions between a child and an adult are ‘abuse’ then abuse is all you’ll ever see – contrary evidence will be invisible or will be redefined to fit that narrative. And the chapters constantly hint at different attitudes to ours but never follow them up, the authors are so intent on following the “abuse” trail.
When Beatrice, a 13 year old girl living in Reformation Geneva, actively seeks out the bed of Louis Guey (who was 72), despite her having been banished from their previously shared bedroom, William G. Naphy, the author of this chapter on Reformation Geneva, blindly labels the relationship as ‘abuse’. Despite many hints and signs that Reformation-age Genevans had significantly different attitudes towards intimacy, sex and age to ourselves the author is incapable of softening the rigidity of his judgment – indeed he even seems to condemn the judges of this case for their “lack of any appreciation of the effect of ‘grooming’ a victim of abuse…” (pp 114).
Naphy goes on to say “The cases examined in this chapter are not preserved in isolation. Rather, they are part of an enormous collection of criminal dossiers relating to crimes of sex preserved in the Genevese State Archives… there are about 300 that relate to ‘deviant’ or ‘unnatural’ sex acts and a further 3,000 that relate mostly to fornication and adultery…”. It’s not clear from this how many of these cases involve children – but it would be interesting to see those cases he didn’t select. It wouldn’t surprise me if those were less congruent with the 21st century ‘abuse’ agenda.
If only these authors had eschewed the invariable use of the phrase ‘sexual abuse’ whenever an adult and a child have any form of intimate interaction. The phrase takes a very varied range of phenomena (including light, playful sensual touching; rape; answering a child’s questions about sex; allowing a child to see you naked; looking at representations of partially clothed children &c &c &c) and metaphorically puts a stick in and stirs these all together into a monotone meaningless grey – the word can mean so many things that it no longer really means anything at all but instead merely represents a stance of the speaker or writer.
Compare this with Helmut Kentler’s introduction to “Show Me!” – especially the section entitled “DESEXUALIZATION – ADAPTATION TO CAPITALIST SYSTEM”
The author paints a picture of the healthy, bawdy and open sexuality of medieval Europe, a sexuality inclusive of children – drawing on Erasmus, the childhood of Louis XIII and other sources. He follows this with the account of a puritanical closing down that occurred at the onset of the early modern period – including showing corpses to adolescents to teach them revulsion towards the body. He then asks:
“Why this oppression, restrictions, denials? Why are they being enforced today in the socialization of each child?
The economic and social changes between 1500 and 1900 (reconstruction of the feudal economy to a capitalist economy, restructuring of the social levels in a class society), required the modeling of a human type that met the requirements of the new living conditions. Desexualization of life and of his own body, control of emotions and moods by restrictive internalized standards, distance to others and to their own physicality, were needed to plan life rationally, to make people the efficient consumers demanded by the construction phase of capitalism, urbanization, and industrialization, and at the same time desensitize people from the increasing alienation from others.”
In short – “Show Me!” has the courage that Rousseau’s book (so far) lacks. The chapters I’ve read of “Children and Sexuality” haven’t done anything other than look for evidence of the Present in the Past – I suspect that this, the supreme failure for a historian, can only be considered acceptable when the subject is child sexuality. Maybe it will pick up in the remaining chapters.
Blimey, did I say Rousseau’s book was good? The chapters you have read are clearly terrible. I think you will have a better opinion of Chapter 11, though, which gives a remarkable anthropological perspective. I also found the chapter on Baden Powell quite interesting without being very radical. And I’d be very surprised if Alison Hennigan’s chapter doesn’t turn out to be good. I confess I haven’t yet got much further, though, so my recommendation was clearly premature.
Well, maybe my comment focused too much on the book’s shortcomings. I agree with you when you write that ‘there is plenty of good stuff’
I’m actually very much enjoying reading it – it is fascinating and I would recommend it, but I’m finding I’m having to read ‘through’ the prejudices of the book to glimpse something I sense lies ‘behind’, if that makes sense.
That the cases were taken from criminal trials and other areas of state intervention needs to be considered in the following manner—or, at least, this is the manner in which I think of such things:
There always have been sexual assaults, by men against women, and against men, but these are not taken as proving the abnormailty of heterosexuality, nor, in contemporary times, the abnormality of homosexuality. When people use this type of situation (actual assault) as a sign of the abnormality of child-adult sex, a false assumption is being made, namely that an assault proves that the act of child-adult sex generally is wrong, when it does not prove the same thing about other forms of sex. This conclusion makes no sense, however, it merely highlights that assault is wrong.
Unfortunately, this type of thinking abounds in many areas of human thought.
As for the question of searching the past in order to prove something about the present, you say that ” look for evidence of the Present in the Past – I suspect that this, the supreme failure for a historian, can only be considered acceptable when the subject is child sexuality”.
This is an area in which various historians have worked, and there are various terms used, e.g., “backshadowing” and “sideshadowing”. The terms are used to refer to various means in which the evidence is viewed, such as treating someone as though they should have known the results of a set of actions. Michael Bernstein’s book “Foregone Conclusions” (University of California Press, 1994) is about the shoah, but contains a lot of interesting observations about this manner of approaching history. (I lost interest in the idea a long time ago, except to try and avoid it in my own thinking, so I have no more recent references.)
To look for evidence in the past that justifies a contemporary belief is a form of backshadowing. Of course, there is a sense in which we all do this, it is a problem only when we do not consider all possibilities and evidence, much of which points us in another direction entirely in reference to child-adult sex, indeed, in reference to sex itself.
Lastly, I have to agree with you entirely: abuse has become a meaningless term which has been extended to include almost anything.
‘Children and Sexuality’ could have been a great book if it wasn’t for this inflated use of the word ‘child abuse’ which brings a cudgel to phenomena which require a scalpel.
The phrase performs the function of Newspeak – to quote Wikipedia (an organisation not itself shy of suppressing freedom of thought, as Sugarboy has pointed out) “a tool to limit freedom of thought, and concepts that pose a threat to the regime” – it reduces our capacity to think by giving us one word where many are required.
I’m not asking or hoping that the people who use this phrase change their minds and become heretical – but simply that they introduce some essential distinctions into their thinking – if they could just qualify that phrase and break the phenomenon down into finer conceptual categories: ‘non-penetrative child sexual abuse’, ‘post pubescent peer child sexual abuse’, ‘pre-pubescent peer child sexual abuse’,'(pseudo-)consensual child sexual abuse’, ‘physically coercive child abuse’ &c &c
Your remarks about “backshadowing” are interesting. I suppose all historians come to their subject with agendas and a bag-full of assumptions. But a historian with certain biases will be aware that critical colleagues who maybe don’t share their biases, will be reading and picking their work apart, and this creates a critical space in the historian’s mind which will moderate the effects of his biases – one of the beauties of the peer review process.
However no such internal critic exists when historians, sociologists, journalists &c write and talk on the subject of child-adult sexuality.
I’m aware that I’ve got my own agenda when reading this book: I picked it up hoping to find evidence that child sexuality and child-adult intimacy were more accepted in pre-modern Europe. My frustration is that the book doesn’t allow me to come to any conclusions either way since the conceptual tools being applied have so far been too crude.
I don’t think it is a matter of agendas, as such, rather it is a matter of intellectual clarity and the willingness to accept evidence which stands against your beliefs. Hence, if a person has the belief that all child-adult sex is harmful and abusive, and then refuses to consider evidence to the contrary (e.g., Rind, Oellerich, Bullough, Malon and, of course, Riegel) then they not anly are not thinking clearly and honestly, but will tend to take the backshadowing approach: “how could they not have known that it was harmful? Ah, but they did because…” In this respect it does indeed become a form of Newspeak.
I am I suspect more demanding than you. I DO want people to change their minds, and to avoid talk of abuse altogether. Camille Paglia wrote an essay called “No law in the arena” in which she argued that there needs to be an acceptance of sexuality in all its forms without the intrusion of law beyond laws concerning assault and rape. I believe she is correct, and if she is correct, then it applies to all sex, not merely adult-adult sex. A child who is raped or sexually assulted in some way deserves protection, just as do adults. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that claim. BUT, research shows that children can and do “consent” to a wide variety of activities, including sexual activities; it merely is the case that their consent does not conform to legal and feminist/philosophical definitions. It is a lived consent of mutual progression toward a goal which, in our current culture, which denies sexual knowledge and “play” to children, never can conform to the ideal. (Indeed, as has been pointed out many times, adults rarely conform to the ideal form of consent in their sexual and other relations with each other.) This, of course, is a huge area which I haven’t yet finished researching, but my view is forming along these lines.
The formation of fear in people, largely via the mainstream media which seems to exist on this creation (Alain de Botton has written somewhat charmingly on this) means that people do tend to look at this area in terms of agendas, e.g., someone who says that children have a sexuality necessarily must be a “paedophile” (a term which is virtually meaningless, in any case). Many academics who write hold these types of view, and refuse to look at evidence to the contrary. Those who do, if they have children, tend to be challenged with words such as “but what if it happened to your child?!”
Well, it didn’t hurt me, and it hasn’t hurt my stepson. Most of us, if we are honest, are more hurt by the words and the furore than the act itself. (Rind was merely one among many who have mentioned this as one of the biggest problems with child-adult sex once it is discovered.)
Anyway, I feel as though I am beginning to go in circles, so enough said.
Actually, I want to point out that when I discovered that my stepson had had a series of sexual encounters with an older man, I faced the challenge of what to do, and was semi-hysterical for a while. But I chose to leave it alone because the trauma of any action involving police, etc., seemed to me to be more potentially damaging than what had actually occurred. I believe I was correct in the way I dealt with it because he has grown into a healthy, happy adult without any associated trauma. The difficulty for me was that I had swallowed and believed a lot of the nonsense spoken about this issue and had to assess the reality before me in contrast to the beliefs I had held and thought to be correct. Importantly, he had not been raped or assaulted in any way, but had been quite willing. That, of course, is the difference, and provided a dep and challenging learning experience for me. Cheers.
Indeed, “willing” is a much better word than “consent”, as the latter assumes that a child can only be the object of sexual advances, and never the one who actively looks for sexual contact, which, of course, is an original and funny way to deal with reality…
What an excellent summary of everything that’s wrong with Rousseau’s book, Lensman.
I read two-thirds of it on Google books a few years ago, and could not then bring myself to buy what I had found to be bigoted unhistorical rubbish apart from one chapter, which I think must be the one Tom is referring to: the anthropological study of child prostitution in modern Thailand. After the rest, this last chapter comes as a surprising and badly-needed breath of fresh air, being by 21st-century standards a masterpiece of non-judgemental research.
I thought its ultimate antithesis was the first and worst chapter, an unsubstantiated reinterpretation of the story of Alcibiades as a “child abuse victim”, a sort of newspeak rewriting of history through the narrow and myopic vision of the bigoted intellectual pygmies that too often pass for historians today (Ronald Hyam being the most notable exception I know of in this field).
In summary, as a passionate student of history, I found the comparison unavoidably to be drawn between historians and anthropologist depressing.
On the subject of rewriting history to conform with modern dogma, I was likewise depressed recently to find how thoroughly the 16th to mid-20th century narratives of Henry VIII’s fifth wife Catherine Howard as a naughty girl (for wantonly taking clandestine lovers from the age of 12) have also been torn up in favour of a “child abuse victim” one.
Edmund, author of Alexander’s Choice, a novel, http://www.amazon.com/dp/1481222112
“bigoted intellectual pygmies that too often pass for historians [insert your favourite expert genre] today”
this made me laugh, loudly!
Agreed, but as I read on I’ve found plenty of interest. Sometimes a historian’s commitment to evidence and analysis is enough, regardless of what moralistic blinkers he or she may be wearing.
For example, I found this observation suggestive: The western world was transformed between the seventeenth and the nineteenth centuries from one in which hierarchical institutions (monasteries, courts, guilds and indeed colleges) provided a form of normality, to one in which the heterosexual and domesticated household formed the epitome of regular living.
The letters are suffused with erotic affect but no gesture of genital contact: all is gifts and toys and unreciprocated love. Can one imagine a contemporary paedophile writing to his victim this way?
Can anyone one imagine a contemporary historian writing this way?
“The letters are suffused with erotic affect but no gesture of genital contact: all is gifts and toys and unreciprocated love. Can one imagine a contemporary paedophile writing to his victim this way?”
Ahhh, I read this very passage yesterday! and marked it out (plus the paragraph which contains it, and the preceding one) as a good example of nonsense that emerges when people write about paedophilia with an absolute ignorance of the paedophile experience.
Of course the answers to his apparently rhetorical question are i/ “yes!”, or ii/ “no: because of fear and persecution a paedophile, whilst experiencing these feelings Rousseau is so incredulous about, would never put them down on paper and send them.”
It seems that all of the popular discourse on paedophiles comes down to what norms and antis imagine about paedophilia and paedophiles. And the fact that the experiences and feelings of actual paedophiles are treated as ‘inadmissible evidence’ means that basically one can say anything because its not going to be tested against any hard fact.
As with other witch hunts the persecuting culture can exercise its imagination unshackled because no-one (that ‘matters’) is going to call them out on inaccuracies, no matter how ludicrous.
This is why someone like doctor Fox could come out with:
“Paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that’s a scientific fact: there’s no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.
I suspect that this also explains why norms and antis assume that paedophiles all want to have intercourse with children. They take their own desires and sexual habits and unthinkingly extrapolate them onto paedophiles, thinking ‘that’s what I’d want to do if I were a paedophile (because that’s what I want to do as a teleiophile)”, and crown their assumption with an adamant QED.
Of course if they asked any genuine paedophile they’d hear something along the lines of “why would I want do to someone I love something that might be painful and distressing for him/her!? I’m only interested in doing whatever it is that she enjoys and makes her happy.”
But it’s not easy to persuade antis that their imaginings, when it comes to the question of what paedophiles like and do, are less valid than the lived and felt experiences of an actual paedophile.
…and yet more rigorous scholarship from Katherine D Watson: Given our knowledge of contemporary paedophiles (who use deception and grooming techniques to avoid suspicion) …
It seems ironic that a discipline so committed to critical appraisal of historical sources should be so mindlessly credulous of contemporary ones.
Actually I do her a disservice. The assertion is sourced from the authoritative and scholarly Predators, Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders by Anna Salter (New York:Basic Books, 2003).
Oops, laughing out loud again- Just can’t help it!
Hello you cunt face. You are a sick fuck who advocates lowering AOC to 8? Fucking fuck you you fucking fuck. You had 50K pics of kiddies and some being tortured? Please end your pathetic existence and (choose 1)
1. Drink bleach
2. Snort cyanide
3. Chop you genitals off and bleed out
4. Do the equivalent of what you want to do to children and get anally raped by a sperm whale with its 12 foot long dick
5. Put your face in an industrial meat grinder
Dear “Suck mah dick”, I did not have “50K pics of kiddies and some being tortured”. Someone recently tweeted this claim, which is simply false. I tweeted in reply, to say so, but my tweet was blocked!
Yes, the claim was made on the basis of a court report carried by the BBC, to which the original tweet linked. Nevertheless, it was utterly false. No “torture” images whatever were in my possession or distributed by me and no allegation of that kind was made in court against my co-defendant.
Have a nice day!
I tweeted in reply, to say so, but my tweet was blocked!
…sounds like a provision on freedom of speech enforced by Wikipedia!
Thanks for having a go, but I presume you mean Twitter not Wikipedia? Twitter hasn’t blocked any of my other tweets, though. It looks as though the original tweeter deliberately blocked replies himself from certain posters.
While I am posting, perhaps I can take this opportunity to mention what might have been another hitch. I had posts from three different people this morning not to the present blog but to an earlier one with WEIRD in the title (The pre-WEIRD world, according to Rind, 10 Jan 2014), which struck me as weird. One of them was from the long-lost “A”, now making a very welcome “flying visit”. Anyway, I hope no one will miss these posts. Did the three posters intend to reply to the earlier WEIRD blog or the later one? It might be clear from the context but I’d have to go back and check, which would take more time than I’ve really got.
I did mean Wikipedia, as they have implemented a self-appointed “child protection policy”: “This policy has been working fine for several years; got a lot of pedophiles and other adult-child sex advocates off Wikipedia, and now there is barely a problem with pro-pedophilia and/or pro-child sexual abuse pushing at articles about or relating to pedophilia and child sexual abuse topics. When I see such editors, I report them to WP:ArbCom if they are a threat to a Wikipedia article and/or are going on and on in their belief about how child sexual abuse is not harmful to children and/or isn’t truly abuse”.
Apparently, messengers are more important than messages…
Yes, I was aware that Wikipedia has the shortcoming that you describe. Was the Twitter situation was all that similar, though? Blocking by an individual on Twitter, rather than by the organisation, can be legitimate, I think, as a defence against trolls. So Twitter as an organisation is right to allow it.
This particular use of blocking was outrageous though. It is obviously wrong to accuse someone of a serious crime or otherwise defame them and then deliberately cut off their opportunity to reply. Perhaps this was the comparison you intended. Ruthless, unethical, tactics of this sort certainly are common on Wikipedia and a great many “moderated” forums where the moderators are not in the least bit fair or moderate.
You just have to love the extremely loaded way these “anti-pedo” statements are worded. They claim that pro-choicers advocate that “abuse” isn’t “actually abuse.” As if they use a version of the term “abuse” that is divinely imbedded in the universal framework, and not just a biased cultural and legal interpretation of the word. As if anything spelled out in a nation’s penal code is the equivalent of holy writ. I think the original composers of the Bible would have found this interesting, especially when you consider how the word of the Catholic Church was once considered the law of the universe. It’s similarly interesting to see how contemporary penal codes have taken on a non-secular version of divine law in the modern mindset. All mainstream approved dialogue on this subject is framed in such an inflexible manner.
Mutually consensual and desired contact is unequivocally considered “abuse” as a matter of course, and totally outside the context of debate because the law and the cultural consensus decrees it so. What people under the legally demarcated age of 18 may have to say about the matter means nothing if it violates a legal statute and offends the sensibilities of the culture at large. That legally written chronological line has become a secular equivalent of what religious rites like the bar & bat mitzvah were meant to signify. The human-written laws of the modern (ostensibly) non-sectarian penal code have replaced the equally human-written holy books of past ages as the culturally presumed framework upon which the universe itself is believed to hold above all nuance and critique. I truly wish I could live to see what future cultural historians will make of the modern penal codes and social institutions.
I have to admit… nothing makes cogent and articulate points better than throwing around a plethora of expletives, death wishes, and ad hominems topped off with a big fat false allegation. Then again, strong emotion bereft of factual or intellectual substance is pretty emblematic of the anti point of view. With that noted, they are so lucky to have the likes of Mr. “Mah Dick” (is it okay to be less formal and just call him “Suck”?) in their corner. No one could possibly make them look better 🙂
Keep on doing the antis proud like this, Mr. Dick! They’re counting on you to teach all of us heretics a lesson in eloquence and cogency!
Agreed, three cheers for Tom for not dismissing such weighty and significant contributions, such as the one by M. Suck Mah Dick, especially as they are representative of a significant sector of our wonderful eqalitarian society.
Dear SMD,
You have a lot of anger in your comments, that is clear. But that is not uncommon in those who were victims or have a close relationship with the victim of a violent sex crime. The difference is what Tom endorses does not fall into the violent realm, and those who commit violent sex acts would be sociopaths while Tom clearly is not a sociopath.
A lot of criminals will feel guilty for their actions, and can not cope with theses feelings. Because of this they will try, and often succeed in convincing themselves their offenses were victimless crimes. Often once they validate their actions, they will try and find others to reinforce the reasoning they create. Tom tried to do this when he came out as a paedophile to his lesbian colleagues in the Open University Group. While they did tell him about the existence of PIE, his membership is said to be what cost him his job there. Though latter his peers in PIE would support his views, he more sought out approval from non paedophiles in an attempt to rationalize his behaviors to a wider audience.
While you may think Tom is a terrible person SMD, the fact is he is capable of feeling deep remorse for his actions. This in turn means he is not a sociopath. Telling him to take his own life will not accomplish anything anymore. Maybe you think that if he takes his life it will save others from the suffering you know of first hand. But likely at his age, and under the watch he is under from police visits every three months the chance of him reoffending are in the lower denomination. Or you could say he is encouraging others to commit horrible acts by justifying it for them, again keep in mind this is done to reinforce his rational and lessen his guilt. And his ostracization by society from coming out only adds to his loneliness.
I strongly suspect Tom himself was a victim of a paedophile, a male one with violent sexual tendencies. This would be why he chose to confide in his lesbian colleagues and did not seek out male counterparts. He is more comfortable relating himself to females, than males who he likely compared to the male sexual abuser he trusted. And though he wants to relate his desires to young females, he deeply buries the desires for young boys he has. His interest in the images largely made of young male victims being tortured is because he is projecting himself into the images.
But probably the most hurtful thing in his recent life was having his trust broken again, by his close friends Charles Napier and Peter Righton. The betrayal was that these close friends of his turned out to be violent pedophiles, no different than the man who abuse Tom. Even though the evidence is overwhelming that they are both pedophile rapists and murders, Tom again uses desperate rationalization to not as much vindicate them, but vindicate himself from associating with such people.
I am sorry both SMD and Tom for the pains you have both endured through your lives. I work every day with children who were sexually abused, and can say violent or non violent sex acts with a child will do severe psychological damage.
If either of you want to talk to me please contact me through my E mail.
Dear RTM,
Your attempt to reason calmly with “Suck mah dick” would be very noble were it completely sincere. I have to suspect, though, that your intention is to take a reasonable tone merely so that your wildly libellous attacks on my friends Charles Napier and Peter Righton will sound plausible. You speak of “overwhelming” evidence that they are both murderers. When Charles was recently jailed it was not for murder. No murder allegation has ever been made against him except yours, so far as I am aware. As for Peter, I will be writing about him again soon in ways which will further demonstrate that he was a gentle and decent person.
You have also chosen to “defend” me based on a succession of incorrect speculations as to my background and psychology.
You write:
>I strongly suspect Tom himself was a victim of a paedophile
Simply, I wasn’t.
>This would be why he chose to confide in his lesbian colleagues and did not seek out male counterparts.
I confided in a number of male friends long before the lesbian colleagues you have heard or read about elsewhere.
>He is more comfortable relating himself to females, than males
Not true.
>…His interest in the images largely made of young male victims being tortured
False. If what you are saying were true, my sentence for distributing such images would have been much longer: closer to the maximum 10 years than the two and a half years I was given. There were NO images of torture.
>I am sorry both SMD and Tom for the pains you have both endured through your lives. I work every day with children who were sexually abused
If it is true that you “work every day with children” (but I have to take this as no more reliable than anything else you say), it would be a fine illustration of the fact that a rational approach to sex has well entrenched enemies. Our struggle needs a strategy for dealing with this.
I work every day with children who were sexually abused
I think this says it all right there. Those who work within and profit from the sex abuse industry require a specific narrative to work with, both to convince the public of their legitimacy and to convince all of their patients without exception that they were “abused.” It’s the equivalent of a police officer who arrests you and is less concerned about whether you’re actually guilty or not than a job-motivated agenda to build a case against you for their own benefit. They want you to be found guilty, and for the courts to believe that you are, so they can personally benefit from your indictment via adding you to an arrest quota. That type of mindset and job-minded attitude is precisely how the sex abuse industry works when it comes to just about any aspect of underage sexual expression, particularly if it involves such expression with an adult.
Real abuse does go on, of course, but most often it occurs at the hands of an adult with a great degree of legal and economic power over the youth in question, such as a parent, grandparent, step-parent, etc. This is largely ignored by the sex abuse narrative, instead externalizing the threat into the “pedophile” who lives entirely outside of the home. Even though it’s often been pointed out that the majority of real child molesters are not actually pedophiles, the narrative must insist otherwise so that it’s “pedophiles” and not the power structure of the modern family unit and the lack of empowerment of younger people in general that are blamed for this supposed epidemic.
This narrative also includes very strange pseudo-psychological analyses of real pedophiles that most often fall far short of the truth. They are simply baseless assumptions, the most important part of the anti tool kit. They aren’t remotely connected to educated suppositions, because antis’ assumptions about pedophilia and hebephilia, etc., are not based on informed scientific analysis but stereotypical presumptions upon which the popular narrative supports. This includes the very misconstrued contention that genuine pedophiles where themselves victims of sexual abuse by a pedophile in their childhood, the same type of “theory” once applied to vanilla homosexuals!
RTM did try to respond with the veneer of compassion towards Tom (and “Suck Muh Dick”, analyzing what was likely a common troll as a sex abuse victim too!), because this is a method that has been gradually gaining popularity over the past decade; they also hope this makes them more palatable and acceptable within MAP communities (and why anti-choice MAPs like the VirPeds enjoy forming perceived mutually beneficial alliances with them). But his/her statements and misinformation stick so closely to the common cultural narrative that one must question the legitimate degree of sympathy actually felt by RTM. Making the types of accusations and assumptions that he/she did to Tom and his friends, none of which were true, casts a pall over any good intention RTM must have had. If he/she is genuinely part of the industry he/she purports to be, then I strongly suggest he/she looks at the emerging degree of literature of MAPs who are not part of forensic and strictly clinical studies. His/her job may not benefit from this, but his/her level of knowledge and enlightenment certainly will.
Now I think I have caught a very deadly disease.
It is characterised by an inability to read serious (?) posts by serious people, without, at the same time not laughing out loud.
Is there any remedy for this?
>Is there any remedy for this?
Not as far as I know. Not to worry, though, the condition is nothing like as deadly as you suppose. There are very few recorded cases of people literally laughing their heads off. 🙂
RTM’s post provides a great example of the kind of ‘anti’ who relies exclusively on imagination and a kind of magical thinking when broaching the subjects of paedophilia and child sexuality.
On a basis of zero facts and zero knowledge RTM has managed to reconstruct Tom’s childhood and, for what it matters, Mr Dick’s childhood too (though nowhere in Suck Mah’s comment does he say anything about himself).
I know I’ve gone on about this before but this is how the anti mind works – and, not coincidentally, how witch hunts work. They operate in a realm of fantasy, where monsters exist, and where ‘if you can imagine it and want it to be true, it probably is true’.
If you search ‘paedophilia’ on youtube you will get pages and pages of such stuff – conspiracy theories built on less than rumours, thinking left untested against reality: the illuminati, satanism, high-ranking politicians, Saville stealing eyes from corpses, David Icke and his pet lizards, human sacrifices, Hollywood, extra terrestrials, and quadraspazed paedos on life-glugs being resurrected as roboplegic wrongcocks… all signs of imaginations unshackled by Fact or Reason, all by people who know nothing about paedophilia or child sexuality other than what their, and the imaginations of those like them, have concocted.
As to RTM saying he “works everyday with children who were sexually abused” – well, nice try RTM but I don’t think so. The cod-psychology you cook up shows a poor conception of ‘Truth’, ‘Evidence’ or ‘Rigour’ that would be disastrous if misapplied to vulnerable children. I certainly hope you’re not a high court judge.
I recommend you read “Straight & Crooked Thinking” by R. H. Thouless – it’s a wonderful book that entertainingly shows you how to think clearly and honestly, and how to spot and avoid poor thinking. Give it a go – it’ll transform you and your life!
Anyway thank you for the your comment RTM – you’ve made me laugh and provided a nice example of the kind of ‘thinking’ which your type commonly employs. Can I please use your comment as an example in discussions on dishonest and cowardly thinking?
GREAT post (and replies)! Another interesting article which corroborates the ideas here is the German-language Foreword to “Zeig Mal!” (“Show Me!”) by Dr. Helmut Kentler, which has just been translated to English, possibly for the first time (this foreword never appeared in the English-language editions of “Show Me!”) Here’s a pertinent excerpt:
“DESEXUALIZATION – ADAPTATION TO CAPITALIST SYSTEM
Scientific research has, in the last decades, rediscovered and evaluated evidence from numerous sources, showing that in Central Europe through the 17th century a pro-sexual attitude prevailed that today – despite a liberalizing trend – would be seen as alien and dangerous and its revival prevented at all costs. J. van Ussel, one of the best authorities on pro-sexual manners and customs of that time, gives the following sketch:”
Kentler’s complete foreword in English can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DD05vy-WuM_-BH5tfbSswOXEQQt5OnYS37zhAtyx0x0/edit?pli=1#
Glad you liked the post, Will, and thanks very much for the Kentler translation.
The article In Defense of Sex and Science – Kinsey http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/archives/oldsite/2005/Kinsey-839.html cites the book Kinsey: Sex the Measure of All Things by Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy, a biography of Alfred C. Kinsey:
“He had heard in 1949…of a little township in deep Kansas where all the women were reputed to have orgasms easily, routinely and always in ordinary intercourse. This was not usual. Kinsey drove down and found that they had developed a way of soothing their little girls, a rubbing and petting technique of the genital area which did soothe them but also brought them to orgasm, a learnt reaction they thereafter retained.”
Concerning WP blogs: you must be logged in to”like”, otherwise clicking on “like” pops up a login window. You can register on WP without creating a blog, but probably few people do that.
This is what you call a moral panic, if I’ve ever seen one: The fact that they’re starting to potentially see the scale in numbers of men that are minor attracted. Personally I think that figure is still low, When you consider sex with anyone under 16 is seen as ‘sexual violence’ But I think this discovery is a good thing: Give those cunts enough rope etc, Then again, They may use it on us — Cos this is a “National Emergency”!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3132884/750-000-British-men-want-sex-children-Shock-new-abuse-statistics.html
I agree with you, Tom, when you say that ” Josephs’ contribution is even more fundamental and radical than Rind’s”. The ideas and theories he presents in this article are incendiary. And he does what the humanities at their best should do: remind us of how relative, how abnormal what we take for normality really is.
Just using the internet as I am now doing, for a start – that’s only become ‘normal’, in any sense, in the last 20 or 3O years. Mankind (depending on how you define it) has been around and managing without it for some 200,000 years – but somehow now, to me, it seems almost essential. A significant part of me has been created by, and is defined by, the internet, which makes me realise just how existentially trapped I am in irrelevant details of the world I find myself in. Sometimes I feel like I’m a gold-fish in a bowl in some living room, whose only connection to some lake in China, my true home, are some confused atavistic desires and fears entirely at odds with the world I find myself in.
What is striking is just how unknown child sexuality is. Josephs’s article several times refers to a lack of basic research, and a squeamishness around the subject which hampers our understanding, prevents research, and even prevents the right questions being asked.
How is it that the sexuality of the children is now maybe the most unknown aspect of being human? Children we give birth to, raise and interact with? The children we’ve all been and all remember (however imperfectly) being?
I’ve often wondered why all other social mammals have no qualms about reproducing in the presence of their young, and, from my observations of horses, why the young show no signs of being bothered by witnessing sexual acts.
Is maybe the next step in ratcheting up paedo-hysteria to prevent foals and fillies from seeing the adults in their herd having sex?
Also it has always seemed to me strange how sexuality is the really the only essential area of being human in which we actively deny children an education. Can you imagine if we treated language, or walking or maths in the way we treat sexuality? When a child shows curiosity or an urge to make sounds and vocalisations we don’t respond, or we try to silence them, or we get embarrassed and try to distract them?
Children are robust and usually survive maltreatment – but one can’t help wondering what people and society might be like if we were to raise children correctly, answering their desires, curiosity and need for love positively and sensitively rather than teaching them nothing other than shame.
The difficulty society has is that ignoring child sexuality does not mean it goes away. If society/parents refuse or are incapable of giving them a proper (enthusiastic, positive, active) education children will get their education regarless – from internet pornography, the pop and fashion industries, playground gossip etc (though I’m delighted by the ways which small children – <6 years – find to express their sexuality, despite society's attempts to expunge it: I remember most fondly the daughter of some friends who, at the age of 3, developed an urge to lick my face – a habit I could only bring myself to mildly discourage whenever her parents were about).
Moreover, in society's attempt to defuse child sexuality, instead of talking to them about 'desire' and 'pleasure' we tell them that sex has to be part of a relationship. But society, whilst saying that, adamantly refuses to allow children to see (or experience) sex happening within a relationship – either from their parents, or to experience it themselves with a trusted and loved family friend. The preaching is hollow, all words but no trousers.
So we're left with children who are uninformed, misinformed, whose sexuality is left for commercial interests to form, children who, maybe most crucially, are deprived of the basic concepts and vocabularly with which to make sense of their feelings.
Finally, when Josephs says “… traumatic experiences are most likely when adolescents or adults use pre-pubertal children as sex objects to facilitate orgasm.”
Is he not saying what any responsible, ethical paedophile would assert: the primacy of the the child’s intentions, consent and pleasure in an adult-child relationship, and that the adult should be caring and respectful in such a relationship?
though I’m delighted by the ways which small children – <6 years – find to express their sexuality, despite society's attempts to expunge it
The other day, On Public transport, I overheard some young kids that were no older that about six, Refer to some Collage teens; It seems they had seen these older teens before; The little girl said 'there's that sexy man again' Then they were telling the embarrassed teens to kiss for them. Another time, Some
younger kids asked a 16yo girl to take their photo — She said "no way" That
is a fine example of the pedo-hysteria, When older minor are to afraid to take a few 'innocent' photos!
Finally, when Josephs says “… traumatic experiences are most likely when adolescents or adults use pre-pubertal children as sex objects to facilitate orgasm.”
Is he not saying what any responsible, ethical paedophile would assert: the primacy of the the child’s intentions, consent and pleasure in an adult-child relationship, and that the adult should be caring and respectful in such a relationship?
In my opinion, Lensman, Josephs may have deliberately worded that disclaimer-ish statement so that it’s ambiguously “open to interpretation.” It can be interpreted by anyone in the liberation camp as only referring to trauma when force (“use”) is applied, as you did; or by non-liberationists as a modern paradigm-friendly statement that any intergenerational contact constitutes the younger person being “used” in such a coercive manner because, as Tom said, “hey, I wanted to get published [without the U.S. Congress unanimously voting to condemn my article on moralistic grounds].”
It is encouraging to see the above and other extensive, generally non-negative, academic inquiries being made into the area of Sexually Expressed Boyhood Relationships with Older Males (e.g. Kershnar: http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Discrimination-Violence-Surprising-Unpopular-ebook/dp/B00C1OK9WM/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8 ). The downside seems to be that these nuggets are usually only to be found in exotic academic tomes and highfalutin journals, where the average citizen is not likely to become aware of them. And too many are written in such obscure psychobabble as to be undecipherable to all but a few.
I do not suggest that ivory-tower types should not be addressed at their own level, but I feel that there also needs to be an outreach to the abovementioned average citizen. At the risk of tooting my own horn, I like to think that most of my own published and Internet-posted efforts ( see links at http://www.daveriegel.info ) are largely comprehensible to a person of average intelligence and education.
Over the past couple of months I have been posting “comments” to various news media fora with links to some of my articles (See http://www.shfri.net/speak ). Counters on those articles ( See http://www.shfri.net/speak/links.cgi ) seem to indicate that people are clicking on the links (Although some may be “bots”). Most of the responses to my comments in these fora are quite negative, but it would seem that people who might want to give positive responses refrain from doing so lest they, too, be attacked. I would certainly welcome any others who might want to participate in this outreach
I wish there were additional Internet-based comprehensible articles that I could link to, but I am not so far aware of any. If anyone can point me to such, it would be appreciated.
>At the risk of tooting my own horn
Toot as much as you like, Dave, this looks very interesting!
As much as I agree with you about academic articles, I almost feel as though I am being forced to say that if these ideas aren’t presented in academia, and in a positive light by at least some of the authors, then they never will enter the mainstream where moral hysterics claim that every touch from an adult is the most vile sexual assault, and every photograph/painting is child pronography. Only careful research and writing, yours, Tom’s, and that of others, can begin to counter the absurdities purveryed to the general public.
Mind you, I got into this area of research via art and the criticisms made of photographic artists, and I have to admit that so much of what I have read has astounded me, and entirely altered my perception of child-adult sexual contact. So much so that I now believe that it is a part of normal human sexuality; a part, moreover, which I have seen in action via my one time step son, without it causing him any harm, and in my own life prior to puberty.
On that note, I also feel as though I should say that childhood sexuality and exploration seems not to need this type of research—but so many people forget theri own childhoods. I, e.g., engaged in sex play with a girl my age when I was four years old, including mutual fondling and more. Later (having been frightened away from girls when her parents discovered us and the predictable parental hysterics followed—almost ruined my heterosexuality, and probably would have caused serious mental harm if my own parents hadn’t been much more accepting and unerstanding), I engaged in exactly the same type of sex play with boys before returning to heterosex.
I have found, when talking to others about childhood sexuality, that I can elicit memories and explorations in thought by using both my own childhood experiences and referring people to articles such as this one which support and sometimes explain it all a little more, even if they have difficulty reading the articles, of which I keep printed copies.
On that score, thanks to Linca for posting the article to dropbox. I can now read and use this article in just the manner I’ve mentioned.
Cheers!
Another interesting methodological article concerning the limitations of current research on childhood sexuality:
Hanneke de Graaf & Jany Rademakers: The Psychological Measurement of Childhood Sexual Development in Western Societies: Methodological Challenges, Journal of Sex Research, 48:2-3, 118-129 (2011) http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2011.555929
Note also the special issue of Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality (The Haworth Press, Inc.), Vol. 12, No. 1/2, 2000, devoted to childhood sexuality; it has also been published as a book: Childhood Sexuality: Normal Sexual Behavior and Development (ed: Theo G. M. Sandfort and Jany Rademakers), The Haworth Press, Inc., 2000. One of its articles is quoted in the Josephs paper.
Tom, concerning your statistics: how many “likes” from WP users ?
>how many “likes” from WP users ?
Only 128 so far, from 152 posts. Thanks for your latest though!
Don’t know why there are not more, bearing in mind the Like button is very easy to press. I hope it’s simply that a lot of people prefer to express their approval verbally (as quite a lot do), when posting comments.
I suspect it might be that the majority of those who are deeply affected by your posts don’t have WordPress accounts. As such, they comment, but can’t ‘like’.
Ah, so! I didn’t know you have to have a WordPress account, whatever that is. Does it mean you have to have your own WP blog? That seems an odd requirement just for Liking. Also, it would be nice if folks could like just because they, well, like, rather than needing to be “deeply affected”. I must admit I’m a bit of an offender myself, though: I tend not to Like just on a whim. It has to be pretty damn good!
For anyone wanting to read the full article by Lawrence Josephs ““How Children Learn About Sex: A Cross-Species and Cross-Cultural Analysis” you can find it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z3dtxv1vgd9v7f6/How%20Children%20Learn%20About%20Sex.pdf?dl=0
Linca
Thank you, Linca. If there is a copyright objection I may have to remove the link but I am happy to let it stand for now.
This post takes me right back to the late Will McBride’s theory that “The boy’s disturbed sexuality leads to war.” His disturbed sexuality turns him into the “Killer Boy”. I do not think we can view McBride’s Video “No War! Monument” enough. [TOC adds: I have a high regard for McBride’s work. Readers need to be aware, though, that it is highly controversial. Some of his paintings and sculptures might be judged obscene in English law. While I agree that such laws are themselves an obscenity, this blog must abide by them, so I will not be giving the link with which this post ended.]