The publication of yet another dry, difficult, boring article in an obscure academic journal may seem no big deal, but I hope heretics will be persuaded that one specific recent addition to “the literature” really is major news for us.
Some readers will have noticed straws in the wind – a hint or two from me in the comments section, even the actual news being leaked at a couple of Kind chat forums – and now the time has finally arrived when I am ready to spill the beans with an official announcement.
Official, that is, because the article is my very own. I like to think the really special thing about it is the content – what it actually says in its 15,000-words – but the most immediate aspect to crow about is that this is the first piece of mine accepted as a work of serious scholarship after going through the process known as peer review i.e. after being read and critiqued in detail by other scholars, who tend typically to be professors and other senior academics.
This in itself would be of no great interest to anyone but me, but when the article in question claims that consensual child-adult sexual relationships could be ethical, or even represent the embodiment of an ideal in human relationships, it does become a bit special. And when that article is written by an activist without so much as a doctorate to his name, much less a chair in moral philosophy, it becomes unique. Even more securely unique, indeed, given that my formal introduction to ethics was acquired while studying an Open University course in philosophy from a cell in Her Majesty’s Prison, Wandsworth.
“Unique”, as it happens, was an epithet used by one of the three anonymous (so they can criticise without inhibition) peer reviewers, who wrote: “The article is unique, interesting, important, and nicely argued. It will be an important contribution to the literature.” Another reviewer called it “stimulating and polemical” while the third said it was “…a great article. Very well researched… Well written and well argued throughout.”
Enough with the fanfare! The title of the paper is “Childhood ‘Innocence’ is Not Ideal: Virtue Ethics and Child–Adult Sex”. It was published online by the journal Sexuality & Culture on 20 April. The print edition will probably come out later this year, from which point it will grace the shelves of university libraries.
Wannabe readers will not need to hunt it down in the groves of academe, though, nor will they need to pay through the nose for it or seek a pirated download (somewhat harder to find now, following a lawsuit last year). No, all they need in order to read the full text free of charge online, or to get a free PDF download, is this link to the article’s page on the Sexuality & Culture website provided by Springer Nature, a gigantic academic publishing corporation.
And thereby hangs an important tale. Springer didn’t get big and profitable by being generous. It may look as though you are being offered a free lunch but it won’t be the publisher picking up the tab. Most of their articles are paid for in the traditional way: the reader has to buy them, just like going into a bookstore and buying a book. That tends to be very expensive for the reader, at £35 or more (around $50 U.S.) for an article of typically only 15-20 pages, unless they are able to borrow a copy from a library. This has been getting increasingly difficult in recent years because the libraries themselves in the UK and elsewhere have been finding it harder to come up with the money for their subscriptions to the journals. This means there is an increasing danger that only a small elite have much chance of discovering the latest scholarship and research.
Determined to reach the widest possible readership for my own pro-Kind paper, I decided this was not good enough. I could have done the same as most authors, which is to transfer the copyright to the publishers, so they can charge for the “intellectual property” (the article) and keep all the money that comes in. Doing it that way means there is no cost to the author. But I decided to put my money where my mouth is by forking out far more than I can sensibly afford in order to retain the copyright and exercise my choice to make the paper free to all readers under a scheme known as Open Access.
I paid Springer’s standard charge. Including VAT this came to a whopping £2,311, or over 3,000 American dollars. The first sign that this was money well spent is shown by the figures: in the first three weeks there have been over 300 downloads from the publisher’s link and more via ResearchGate, which is a networking site for scientists and researchers. This might seem small potatoes compared to the million a minute or whatever it is for cute cat clips going viral on YouTube but it is extremely good for a scholarly site – and unlike the cat clips a good article can have a long-lasting influence on people who are themselves seriously influential – such as public intellectuals (those high-profile profs who tend to be on the telly a lot), or leading bloggers and journalists.
With the help of a single generous sponsor I also made an earlier Springer publication of mine Open Access. This was a book review (which did not itself need to be peer reviewed) titled “Arthur P. Wolf: Incest Avoidance and the Incest Taboos, Two Aspects of Human Nature”. Without me making any significant effort towards publicising this review, it has gained 2,100 downloads since going online in November 2015. I confidently expect my present paper to get much bigger figures, not least because I intend to trumpet it far and wide.
The fact that I put my own money upfront this time around was an expression of my passionate belief in “Childhood ‘Innocence’ is Not Ideal”. It was also an act of faith in heretics here that you will wish to play your part by supporting my endeavours. I trust you will be willing to make whatever donation you can, not just to ensure that I can pay my next electricity bill now that I have taken a big hit to the wallet, but that I can also keep Heretic TOC and other projects going on a flourishing basis. My only income these days is a state pension. Thanks to serial career-busting activism over the years I have never been able to generate more than a sliver of a pittance from company pensions or anything of that sort.
That was my choice of life-style. I do not complain. But looking forward to the next few years I will be unable to keep on giving my time so freely unless I can cover my costs . I might be forced to give up Heretic TOC entirely, along with any further scholarship, in order to supplement my meagre income by devoting my time to commercial work instead – editorial consultancy and research such as I used to do after being recruited by Gordon Wills in the 1980s, in the field of marketing, and in more recent years Bill Percy, assisting with his history writing and research projects. The earnings in both cases were good, and the work was interesting, so it is tempting to go in that direction again.
I would far rather stick with what I am doing now, though, as I feel it is more important. But for that I need your help, your contribution. That is why, as you will see, I have added a Donate button to Heretic TOC. You will see it on the right hand side of the page. It is the last item, after the Follow button. The system uses PayPal, which is a very easy way of paying from accounts in any major currency, either using a credit card or your own PayPal account.
Nominally, your contributions will go to Dangerous Books Ltd, which is the name of the company I set up principally as the vehicle for promoting and selling my book Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons (authored under the penname “Carl Toms”) some years ago. My PayPal account just happens to be in this name but it is not actually a company account. So your contributions will go to me personally and be entirely at my disposal.
I see no reason why the donation system should not work smoothly, but if there are any teething problems with it do let me know.
In making this appeal I am acutely aware that many heretics have faced career disasters and consequent financial limitations comparable to my own, so may not have much to give; others will have been so traumatised by unkindness to the Kind that they have found it tough just to hold off depressive inertia and keep themselves going sufficiently to make a modest living. To these I say, give what you can and you will be doing yourself a favour as well as me: you will feel good for having contributed. It’ll cheer you up a bit!
There are also those who have been resilient; they include skilful, talented people who have done well in life, being wisely alert to pitfalls and how to avoid them. Among them are those who generously came to my aid a couple of years ago when my need was far more desperate than it is now. When it looked as though I would need an expensive legal team to keep me out of prison, this gallant band of stalwarts rose to the challenge stupendously, some pledging four-figure sums. Fortunately, in the end I needed only a tenth of what had been offered and accepted that amount with relief and gratitude.
To these heroes, and to others who are at least modestly prospering, I would now say I have no need for a four-figure sum from any single individual (but of course it would be nice if any millionaire heretics happen to be feeling bountiful!) I would urge you, though, to think seriously about a three-figure one: without a number of donations at this level I could be struggling.
Enough with the funding!
A word may be needed about the paper itself. It is not an easy read, especially the first sections. One of my main targets in this early part is the stance taken by the eminent British conservative philosopher Sir Roger Scruton. Heretics who are into philosophy might enjoy what I hope is a successful demolition job on his enthusiasm for denouncing “perversion” and “obscenity”.
It is in the later part, though, that I feel I really get motoring. This is where, having ditched the negative approach to sexual “virtue” espoused by Scruton and his supporter Agustin Malón, I develop my own, positive, approach.
I might add that I have met Malón a couple of times and downed a few beers with him. He is a very nice guy; so our differences are ideological rather than personal. A Spanish scholar, he is a professor of education, and has written a number of papers pertinent to our concerns that are far more humane and sympathetic than anything I have seen from Scruton.
THE BITER BIT: WHAT A HYPOCRITE!
Would you Adam and Eve it! John Woodcock MP, the man who had me kicked out of the Labour Party could be shown the door himself, after being suspended at the end of last month over – wait for it – alleged sexual harassment! It is claimed “he sent inappropriate messages to a former female member of staff”.
In an even more delicious irony, the first thing Woodcock did to undermine my position in the party two years ago, after the police alerted him to my background as a Kind activist, was to go blabbing to the press. And guess what he is complaining about now?
Yes, you’ve guessed it: he is upset that his detractors have gone blabbing to the press! The BBC quoted him as denying the truth of the allegations, and as saying:
“The decision… to place details of my case in the press and then suspend me places a serious question mark over the integrity of the process….”
Oddly enough, he didn’t seem so concerned about “the integrity of the process” in my case, which I blogged about in An Open Letter to the Labour Party.
Can’t say I feel a lot of sympathy for him. As he appears to have made it his life’s mission to undermine Labour’s leader, Jeremy Corbyn, at every opportunity, the party would do well to see the back of him.
HOT CONTRABAND IN PRISON
Email received this morning from a correspondent in the U.S.:
“I talked with a fellow tonight who was recently released from prison. He told me that someone smuggled a copy of your book on Michael Jackson in by having it mailed to an inmate who was not there on a sex crime, so his mail is less scrutinized and it got through. Then, to allow the sex-crime inmates to read it, someone took the cover from a book by Isaac Asimov that was about the same size, and replaced your cover with that so the guys could read it without the guards knowing what they were reading.”
So, never mind drugs, mobile phones and the rest, it seems the cool item to smuggle into prison now is Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons. Way to go, dudes!
p. 22: “Grounded in religious beliefs and mores that are no longer the glue of modern life serving to bind communities together, such ideals have long been no more than relics, as dead and devoid of meaning as the word “bourgeois” itself and the life of prosperous social dominion it connotes.”
Conservatives may not have to change their views completely, as Deidre McCloskey defends the bourgeoise in her trilogy (Bourgeois Virtues, Bourgeois Dignity, Bourgeois Equality). As a transgender she obviously does not defend bourgeois intolerance. However this may be just about definitions and does not affect the point that you want to make, Tom.
Fascinating point, but Deirdre McCloskey’s trilogy, while it may have been received with interest among intellectual conservatives (and perhaps read with avid enthusiasm by Roger Scruton!) would not appear to have brought bourgeois values back into fashion more widely following the appearance of the first volume 12 years ago.
Actually, it is significant that McCloskey is an economist. Her starting point is thus with the bourgeois virtue of prudence and she broadens out from this.
But her own private life as a trans woman (now Deirdre, formerly Donald) can hardly be called bourgeois; it would be unlikely to meet with enthusiasm by a true sexual conservative such as Scruton.
Otherwise, no doubt she makes a lot of interesting points, of which we get a flavour from a piece in The Guardian by David Boaz. See link below with brief extract following.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jul/14/bourgeoisvirtues
She examines how the classical virtues apply in a commercial world. “The leading bourgeois virtue is the prudence to buy low and sell high…but it is also the prudence to trade rather than to invade, to calculate the consequences, to pursue the good with competence.”
She goes on to add temperance – to save and accumulate, but also to look for compromise. Justice is private property, along with respecting merit, not privilege, and viewing success without envy. And so on through courage, love, faith, and hope, the old virtues for the modern world.
McCloskey says that her goal is to take the word “bourgeois” back from its enemies, to make it a term of honor, by showing how the virtues inform capitalism and how capitalism encourages the virtues.
In the context of p. 17: “It is also worth
noting that the relatively small proportion of child–adult sexual encounters in which
full intercourse is a factor (which typically involve teenagers), are not associated
with deleterious long-term outcomes, contrary to common belief (Laumann et al.
2003).”
This paper may also be relevant:
Max Welter und Bruce Rind (2016). Reactions to First Postpubertal Coitus and First Male Postpubertal Same-Sex
Experience in The Kinsey Sample: Examining Assumptions in German Law Concerning Sexual Self-Determination and Age Cutoffs. /International Journal of Sexual Health 2/ (28), 117–128. https://doi.org/10.1080/19317611.2016.1150379
The research was also published in German, so I mentioned it in my translation:
Max Welter und Bruce Rind (2016). Das gesellschaftliche Konstrukt der sexuellen Selbstbestimmung im deutschen Recht – empirische Überlegungen. In Daniela Klimke, Rüdiger Lautmann (Hrsg.), Sexualität und
Strafe, 11. Beiheft zum Kriminologischen Journal, Beltz Verlag, S. 207–222
In the German paper Welter and Rind explicitly point out that the construct of self-determination in German law was defined in a Kantian non-empirical way (S. 208 “in kantisch-idealistischer Tradition”).
So the paper is also relevant in the context of p. 4: “In fairness, this non-empirical approach belongs to an extensive philosophical
tradition that includes Kant, who distinguished the world of human experience
from the world of scientific observation.”
>In the German paper Welter and Rind explicitly point out that the construct of self-determination in German law was defined in a Kantian non-empirical way (S. 208 “in kantisch-idealistischer Tradition”).
Interesting connection. Well spotted!
[…] Welcome to the joys of Springer! […]
Tom
u mentioned to ed chambers that he might have stumbled across a dodgy site and was wondering how to tell cos sometimes i cant.
THE READERS MAY BE CONFUSED BY DANIEL JOHNSON I AM MORE KNOWN AS JUST DANIEL
hi every 1 been away but now im back i should not allow society to censor freedom of speech i shall not be intimadated.
Big thanks for the Mega Archive link, Tom! Wonder who made such a collection of materials – I just looked there, and there seems to be something that even I haven’t yet found (and my storage of documents on the intergenerational sexuality, ranging from scientific research to activist polemics, is, dare I say, colossal).
P.S. I hope that another non-hostile scholarly dissertation on the child-adult sex, that I found and provided to IPCE, would be edited and published soon there.
Fantastic, thank you very much (for the MEGA archive)! Well pointed out Explorer….
***THIS IS A RESPONSE TO THE SEAN’S REPLY TO MY ETHICS ESSAY, POSTED HERE TO AVOID “THE COMMENT SHRINKING EFEECT”.***
Thanks for your response, Sean! It was quite pleasant and well-thought – sad I have to disagree with you in some respects…
First and foremost, I need to emphasize that I’m NOT a “human exceptionalist” – when I talk about true self and free will, I talk about all living beings (at the very least, about all higher animals like mammals and birds), not only about human beings. So your remark about (proto )morality among animals is not an argument against my position – I fully accept that the behavior that can be described as “moral” is observable among animals as well as humans, and think that the basic moral impulse about that I have wrote is present among them as well.
Now, to the main part of my counter-argument – which is, simultaneously, is the description of my general ontology and epistemology (which underlies my axiology – including my ethics).
And – anyone who read it, I ask: please read it fully before responding! Only after reading all parts of it, you will understand what I mean. Reading only one part of the text will likely leave you with very misguided idea of what I actually meant.
1) THE LAWLESS AND DISOBEDIENT NATURE
Science – at least science in the modern Western sense of the word, which is common for us all – is essentially an intellectual, rational enterprise, despite all its claims to be “empirical”; of course, it does have a relationship to empirical evidence, yet this relationship is quite difficult, since it is usually quite selective (the exception from this common selectivity are “fringe” sciences like parapsychology… more about it later in the text).
The strong and stubborn resistance to the evidence that contradict the dominant theoretical frameworks are well-known; only rarely does the burden of inconvenient observations becomes too strong to proceed, so the radical reconstruction of the theoretical underpinnings of the scientific worldview – the oft-quoted Kuhn’s “scientific revolution”, or “paradigm shift” – is enacted. Yet there are observations to which the resistance are much, much stronger than usual. Some of them are the evidence that upset the dominant social mores and principles (such as evidence of consensual and harmless sexual relationships between adults and children). Other are the evidence that goes against the fundamental overarching meta-paradigm of science, the paradigm-of-paradigms that remains intact even if lesser paradigmal frameworks within its greater meta-framework are changed via revolutionary “paradigm shifts”. This meta-paradigm is the belief in the immutable and inviolable “laws of nature”.
The belief that is founded on nothing but on the wills of its supporters to believe in it – and is massively contradicted by the truly colossal amounts (and, oftentimes, remarkable validity) of empirical observation and evidence.
The hard, painful, horrible fact of nature is that nature is lawless. It is, ultimately, Chaos as well as Cosmos. It cannot be obliged to follow the demands that humans impose on it in the form of its supposed “laws” – which are not, in fact, its “laws” at all, but the laws that humans desire to find within it, and thus to force on it. The huge quantity (and, in many cases, pretty high quality) of the empirical evidence for the “paranormal” phenomena – phenomena which go against the, supposedly, absolutely unchangeable, infallible and insuperable “mechanism” of nature fully governed by its “laws” – destroys the elegant-but-mistaken intellectual (and, as I will explain below in the text, also covertly volitional) utopia of the scientific absolutism: the absolutism which is based on a combination of an intellectual projection and a volitional demand.
The only areas where the idea of the “absolute laws” is viable are mathematics and logic – and the coherent framework of logical-mathematical formulae is the core of science (at least, natural science). The great and deep mistake of many scientific thinkers is that they, being deeply impressed and inspired by the beautiful implicit order of logical and mathematical formalism, started to believe the nature – read, the world of the lived experience – must be also fully and exhaustively governed by such unified, fully intellectually accessible and predictable order. So, they projected the product of their intellectual creativity onto the experiential existence, and persuaded themselves that this product is “really” “out there”, while it always remained within their intellects and never existed anywhere outside the intellectual realm.
Yet, these scientific thinkers possessed not only intellect, but also free – and powerful – volition. So, they started unwittingly acting on nature – that is, on the lived experience – influencing it, molding it, reforming it, in a ways that tend to confirm their preconceived expectations; they, in the most literal sense, banished the undesirable (for them…) natural chaos for the sake of desirable (again, for them…) natural order. They started to experience the world as if it was indeed absolutely and perfectly ordered, with its “laws” being permanent and unbreakable. Well, most of the time they did experienced it as such, but not always so – occasionally their volition, being as non-absolute as everything else, failed to protect them from experiencing the unpleasantly natural-order-disconfirming violations of the alleged “laws of nature”. And, expectedly, people who did not share the scientific thinkers’ will-to-absolute-natural-order, and thus was notably less protected from the observations of the natural chaos, continued to experience the “lawless” events and situations on a grand scale.
Yet, nowadays, the scientific thinkers hold the dominant position in society – and thus also the hegemonic position in culture. So, they can always resort to personal attacks on anyone who witnessed something that disconfirms the supposed absoluteness of the “laws of nature”, knowing that such attacks would be supported and perpetuated by the powerful societal institutions, organisations, movements and communities. That’s why anyone who had witnessed anything “paranormal” is immediately branded as being either “dishonest” or “insane”, any observation or evidence of the “paranormal” is being automatically rejected as either “hallucination” or “fabrication”, and any argument in favour of it is unthinkingly dismissed as either “delusion” or “deception”.
Now tell me, please: don’t these brandings, rejections and dismissals remind you of something very familiar? For example, of “cognitive distortions”, “cognitive mistakes” and “rationalisations” that are persistently attributed to the unrepentant paedosexuals – as well as their underage sexual partners who refuse to fit the culturally prescribed and socially enforced role of “victim” (as well as, sometimes, even to the people who dare to defend the consensual intergenerational sexuality without being either paedosexuals or their underage sexual partners themselves) – so their experiences and arguments, as well as their very status as (honest and sane) persons, may be dismissed without any attempt to refute it in detail? If it does, than you are correct, since psychological, social and cultural mechanisms that are employed in such elimination-by-uncritical-branding is much the same in all cases, even if the underlying reasons may be more on the sides of the moral (in the case of the intergenerational sexuality) or the intellectual (in the case of the “paranormal”).
2) THE NON-ABSOLUTE PATTERNS AND REGULARITES OF NATURE
Does all that I said, as for now, sounds remarkably like all those common “post-modernist” condemnations of science as a form of ideological violence in the service of the existing power-structures? Surely it does sounds like that – and it should sound like that, since it is an important part of the truth of about science; yet it is not the whole truth.
Now let’s look at the situation from another side and another perspective.
While nature is indeed lawless – in the sense that it possesses no absolutely immutable and inviolable patterns and regularities – it does demonstrate patterns and regularities which are very stable and persistent, as well as remarkably hard to be violated by a sheer act of will. These stability and persistence, and resistance to willful change, while not being absolute, are reliable and consistent enough to be studied in a systematic and coherent way – and so manifestations of the natural phenomena, as well as the possibilities of their further development, can be reliably described and predicted by the systems of the logical-mathematical formulae, and, thus, by the theoretical models of science. Such models do not contain absolute truth about the experiential phenomena they describe (and the development of which they predict), yet they do contain a very important – and highly useful – part of truth about them.
So, why science cannot make absolute explanatory and predictive statements – it can never categorically state that something is either absolutely impossible or absolutely inevitable – it can provide us with explanations and predictions that works quite effectively in the vast majority of cases. And, beyond of just working very reliably (even if not absolutely perfect), it provides us with a highly important part of understanding of the world’s nature – a part that couldn’t be provided by any other method.
As for the logic and mathematics themselves, they are the part of human mind that can be reduced neither to simple reflections of patterns and regularities of experience nor to the arbitrary act of self’s free will. I think, they are based on the fundamental intuition of the structurality, of the impulse to find the beautiful and elegant order in the chaos. I strongly suspect that logic and mathematics grows from the same root from that the aesthetics grows. It does not mean that logic and mathematics are just a continuation of aesthetics – they go much further; they intuitively recognize and propose the genuinely universal laws of the pattern and the regularity, which are working as long as the pattern and the regularity themselves are actually present, which is the most common and frequent – but not absolutely inevitable or necessary – case when one is dealing with nature (the totality of the lived experience). And it is, fundamentally, not the case when one is dealing with the deeds of the living beings who possess the selfhood and personhood – and the free will – which is, initially, not restricted by any patterns and regularities whatsoever (as long as the willing self does not will to restrict itself by them); yet, since the behavior of the persons who live in the actual world and the actual society does demonstrate some non-absolute (nature-like) patterns and regularities, logical and mathematical methods can be, to some extent, used to living beings and their societies as well (even if the explanatory and predictive power of any models would be inevitably much lower comparable to the ones describing nature, due to the inexplicable and unpredictable free will of individuals).
So, my condemnation of the scientific absolutists above the text should be balanced by my equal condemnation of the anti-scientific absolutists: the extreme “post-modernist” or “pre-modernist” types who insists that science possess nothing but hegemonic cultural coercion in the service of the socially dominant groups and views. While science is, and always was, used by the powerful to justify themselves, it does provide a universal method of research and (most importantly!) of critique and discussion that can be used against the claims of power – including the power of the scientists themselves. For example, one can use the scientific evidence and argumentation to counteract the claims of “cognitive distortions” that is used to brand and dismiss paedosexuals, their underage sexual partners and their defenders. As long as proponents of the “cognitive distortion” model pretend to be scientific, they have to subject themselves to the scientific rules of debate, criticism and refutation (at least, ideally so… in the actual social situation, they may simply refuse to debate, knowing that the power is on their side). If the power appeals to science, it makes itself vulnerable to the scientific counter-arguments.
And the most interesting ability of the science is its ability to draw its own limits, by confirming the irregularities of nature – the violations of its apparent “laws” – by the recognized methodologies developed by it. The only precondition for such ability to manifest is refusal to ignore or deny the “law”-disconfirming empirical evidence. And this is exactly what “fringe” scientific research, like parapsychology, is doing: it proves the limited nature of science by using methods of science itself, by reliably confirming the actual existence of the empirically accessible phenomena that overtly contradict the whole theoretical framework of science – and, most importantly, the system of the logical-mathematical formulae which lies in its heart of it. These are natural phenomena that can be detected and described by the scientific method – but their ultimate explanation lies beyond it. They are an empirical proof that nature possesses (and manifests) chaos as well as order.
It is the social and cultural acceptance of the actual existence of the phenomena that can be confirmed but not explained by science that may put an end to the over-arching meta-paradigm of science: the one which is, actually, is based on and inspired by the materialist metaphysics (one should not forget that materialism, as such, is a metaphysical, philosophical ontology – not a scientific theory). When it will happen (and, I think, sooner or later it will), we will face the most radical reshaping of our understanding of the world since the scientific revolution of the 17th – 18th centuries.
(An important clarification: not all parapsychologists would agree with my description of the parapsychology of the “science-limiting” enterprise. Some of them are materialists who believe that all apparently “paranormal” phenomena would be one day explained by a purely physical explanatory models. Some are immaterialists who think that immaterial phenomena can be studied in the same way, and by the same methods, as the material ones. What I said above is my opinion, not some universal stance of parapsychological research community.)
3) SO WHAT ABOUT TRUE SELF AND FREE WILL?
So, let’s pretend you accepted my arguments that science is very useful and necessary, yet it has limits and cannot explain anything; that immaterial, non-physical natural phenomena actually exist. Does this prove that living beings possess true selves and free wills?
No, it doesn’t. The real existence of the immaterial does not, as itself and in itself, presuppose that selfhood and volition (and intuition) are also real. They still may be just profound illusions.
Yet it does open the door for them, make their existence possible – and restores the validity of the philosophical argumentation beyond scientific theoretical models and lived experience beyond controlled scientific experiments, including the spiritual one. And from this starting points the philosophical and spiritual case for free will and true self can be made – while in a purely scientific discussion, such topics simply cannot be properly formulated for the purpose of discussion. They are simply beyond science – unlike the immaterial empirical phenomena, they cannot even be experimentally confirmed or refuted. Yet the successful confirmation of the immaterial natural phenomena allows the search for the answers to the mysteries of existence to move further, to the areas that are completely beyond scientific research, that are only accessible by the philosophical thought and spiritual experience.
And the philosophical thought and spiritual experience can point to something that lies even before and beyond them – to the awareness, volition and intuition, to the selfhood that precedes and transcends both experiential and intellectual realms.
But to reach there, one should first accept the actual existence of empirical reality beyond theoretical scientific modelling of the “physical” – that is, the existence of the immaterial. And for the one who is not yet accepted it, no arguments for the free will and true self can be persuasive. Only after the first step is taken, one may consider taking the second one…
The most famous case of paranormal activity was the Enfield hauntings back in the 1970s. I try to have an open mind, it had experts baffled with what was seen there.https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/943014/The-Enfield-Poltergeist-paranormal-ghost-news
Couple of news items :
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/movies/luc-besson-and-the-disturbing-true-story-behind-%e2%80%98l%c3%a9on-the-professional%e2%80%99/ar-AAxJzZc?li=BBoPWjQ
I didn’t think it was disturbing…
https://www.chiangraitimes.com/64-year-old-swiss-national-christian-python-busted-in-central-thailand-for-publishing-child-pornography.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_So5Y42oLw
Arguably his best video so far, I had to chuckle when, a few times, he was suppressing laughter….
This is excellent!
You don’t need huge studies to show that minor attraction is normal among men, just look at the mammoth lengths youtube goes to just to disable comments and suspend accounts from ‘predators’.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/youtube-is-disabling-predatory-comments-but-leaving-up-the?utm_term=.ydGZDZWov#.vgLWxWKle
Found this on a chat server :
http://sci-hub.tw/10.1300/J082v37n02_01
Seems like a great article, and web site. Not sure if it’s been linked to before.
>great article, and web site
I couldn’t agree more, except that readers should be aware the website is a pirate site that specialises in illicit downloads in breach of copyright. If the owners of this copyright ask me to remove this link I will be obliged to do so. They might also demand a fee for use, payable by me.
I doubt this would be valid and enforceable in the event of my immediate compliance with their request for removal, this but I am not a lawyer and I do not know for sure. Accordingly, and with regret, I would ask readers to refrain from posting any further links from this site.
this was a good topic for a paper but i feel Mirkin missed some important deatails and revealed some of his own biases.
he raises the question several times as to why paedophilia has been disadvantaged in moving from phase I to phase Ii, but fails to observe that young people are effectively exluded from any debate. in contract,most actors in homosexual relationships identified as members of a community seeking emancipation.
its interesting to note in that context that heterosexual “new women” faced perfhaps the strongest resistance to their sexual liberty from the very group they were seeking liberty to have sex with: men!
I also feel, as someone mostly attracted to little girls of 4 to 6 that Mirkin privileges lovers of pubescent and even adolescent boys. he acknowledges that sexual activity with pubescents is typically different to that engaged in among adults (eg, penetrative sex is relatively uncommon) but shows little understanding of similar constraints around what kind of sexual expression might occur between an adult and a young child.
Its fairly obvious from where Mirkin’s viewpoint arises: girls are more vulnerable to sexual exploitation than boys, and young children more vulnerable yet.
But this is the exact same argument the justifies the general prohibition of sexual activity with young people, so he’s not saying anything at all about the principle of paedophile emancipation, just commenting that the age of consent could be lowered, which isn’t particularly relevant to his argument.
so its a suggestive comparison: feminists/homosexuals/paedophiles, but I feel it deserved a more thorough treatment.
>its interesting to note in that context that heterosexual “new women” faced perfhaps the strongest resistance to their sexual liberty from the very group they were seeking liberty to have sex with: men!
Interesting point!
Hi Ed,
I found this passage in the Sci-Hub paper you referred to exceptionally relevant to the struggle that lies ahead for us:
“But, despite the rhetoric, the weak cannot simply take power away from the strong any more than the Jews could take power from the Nazis. They can only raise the issues, and then need to convince a significant portion of the dominant group to join with them or give them power.Thus, American women got the vote because an all-male establishment passed a constitutional amendment, and black civil rights were granted by white courts, legislatures and executives. Dominant groups sometimes divide when they are presented with a strong argument by subordinate activists, and an audience receptive to the claims is brought into existence. It is normally only under these conditions that the deviant group can improve its status. Conversely, there are times when a permissive power structure or dominant culture withdraws freedoms previously given. In the sexual area this happened when the Roman empire began to Christianize.It also occurred in Germany after the Weimar Republic, in the Soviet Union after Stalin came into power, and in America and western Europe during the depression of the1930s. “
***MY TRIPARTITE LIBERTARIAN ETHICS***
Ok, here is my full – well, as full as a comment format may allow! – explanation of my meta-ethical and ethical positions. Feel free, and even encouraged, to reply! And – if you notice that a few of my statements repeat, to an extent, what I said in my previous post, do not be surprised: I wrote this text as a self-sufficient one, an essay to describe my ethical dedications in their fullness, so I have to reiterate some basic things… yet, most (almost all, in fact) of what I wrote here is entirely novel, so this ethical essay of mine it is worth reading (at least, I hope so!).
1. SELF AND OTHER, FREEDOM AND LIMITATION: THE ROOT OF MORALITY
Our basic understanding of what morality is critically based on our understanding of what a human being is. For materialists, the man is a product of the so-called “nature” – the weird creation of human imagination, supposedly an unperceivable impersonal force that exists outside the lived experience of anyone and everyone, yet completely determines such experience through its universal, immutable and inviolable “laws”. In such understanding of reality, the very notion of “morality” is just plain meaningless, since everyone’s acts are entirely predetermined by the mechanisms of “nature” and no real choice is ever possible.
If the materialism was the only ontological option available, the prospects of the moral debate of any kind would be quite bleak. Happily, materialism is neither the sole nor actually the best option of ontology – immaterialism, with its multiple variations (from psychophysical dualism to neutral monism and panpsychism to the full-blown idealism), is much better choice. The many advantages of immaterialist worldview(s) are quite clear for the ones who dare to step outside of the socially-enforced confines of the respectable “mainstream” in ones’ search for the authentic knowledge: the stigmatised and marginalised, yet in fact fully methodologically sound, parts of consciousness research, like parapsychology, transpersonal psychology and near-death studies, provides one with the evidential basis for the objective existence of the non-physical mind that is strong enough to refute the materialists’ claims. Yet, what the parapsychological research does not and, I think, simply cannot provide is any clear and stable description of what the non-psychical realms are like. This is quite understandable: it is the dedication to the methods of the sciences what makes parapsychological research so reliable and persuasive (on par with the other results achieved by employing these methods), yet it is also what limits its scope, since these very methods were originally produced for the study of body-related and body-connected – and thus “physical” – experiences. Because of it, the parapsychological research may be called “negative” in the sense that it objectively proves that the actual existence is not limited to the traditional realm of “material” (read: somatic), yet it cannot create a detailed explanatory model of what exactly lies beyond that realm. Its role, in my opinion, is to delineate the outer limits of the scientific domain with the methodology of the science itself.
So, if we move beyond the domain of the physical – and by talking about morality, we inevitably move beyond it, since nothing moral (or immoral, or even amoral…) can be ever found in the physical fields, waves and particles. Nor it can be found in the bodies made of all this physical stuff – yet it can be and should be found in the way how conscious beings (which humans are) deal with their embodiment, and in their ideas about, attitude to, and usage of their own bodies and the bodies of others.
But before we move to the body-related – and sexuality-related – parts of morality, we should first understand what is the root of the moral impulse. Really, what is this persistent inner imperative to act in a way that we consider to be “good” (or “right”, or “true”, or whatever) in the human mind – the imperative which is persistent enough to remain largely intact even in the minds of most self-professed “immoralists” and “amoralists”, even if they do not dare to call it by its name? Yet why, if this imperative is so universal, it is also so ambivalent; why, while the intent to act “morally” can inspire the deeds and mercy and charity, it may also lead a person to act in the most cruel and atrocious ways? And why the moral principles and ideals of people may differ radically enough to become mutually incompatible?
The root, the first step of the moral impulse, in my opinion, lies in the freedom and will of the Self – and, in the same time, the fact that its will usually includes the will to meet the Other, to be with the Other. The freedom of a singular Self, the potential to enact its will, is virtually unlimited. Yet this very will contains an intrinsic impulse to find someone beyond itself, to meet with the other Self with which it may interact and coexist. Such will-to-Other is the expression of the Self’s freedom; but the problem is that it is also the source of its limitation. Since, to coexist with the Other, the Self has to find some form of concordance of its own will with the Other’s will; yet the sacrifice for such concordance must have its own limit as well – otherwise it will lead to the utter suppression of the Self’s own willfulness, its will-of-Self. So, the difficult trilemma arises: being with the Other is the expression of the Self’s intrinsic free will; yet the enactment of this freedom requires the limitation of it, since the Other possesses the free will of its own; and this limitation should itself be limited in turn, so not to destroy the original will of the Self. So, the will-to-Other, which is born from the will-of-Self and simultaneously limits it, gives birth to the will-from-Other, the will to protect itself from the excessive limitation of freedom that arose from the will to coexistence; the will to weaken, if not to break, this free-willed and yet limiting interaction with the Other. But to break it would be to destroy the original will to start it…
This tension between the freedom, limitation and limitation-of-the-limitation, between the will-of-Self, will-to-Other and will-from-Other produces the impulse to resolve this inner conflict of the Self. Such resolution is hard to find, however, because of the fact the Self is not alone in finding it – let’s not forget that the Other is another Self, for whom the first Self is the Other; it has to face a similar inner conflict. And, since the wills of these two Selves (and Others-for-each-other in same time) are interacting, the decision of any of them will inevitably affect the other one. So, while they both, being free agents, decide for themselves, they, since they are interacting already, has to take into account the decisions of each other; the resolution of the situation can also be found only in the interaction of their decisive acts.
There are fundamentally four forms this resolution may take:
– the first one is PARTING – the Self and the Other break their contact, and each of them goes its own way from now on;
– the second one is SUBJUGATION – the Self either gives up its own freedom to fulfill the will of the Other enforced on it, or force the Other to give up its freedom to fulfill the will of the Self;
– the third one is COMRADESHIP (it is the most difficult to achieve, yet it is also the most productive) – the Self and the Other recognize each other as equals, and work together to decide how they make the best of their interaction, while maintaining each other’s freedom as fully as it can be actually done, given the limited limitations of coexistence;
– the forth one is STRUGGLE – the forceful conflict between the Self and the Other, which, strictly speaking, is not the solution but the way either to one of the three solutions (reconciliation between the struggling sides and then comradeship, capitulation of one of the sides and then subjugation, exhaustion of conflict between the sides and then parting), or elimination of the Self, or the Other, or both.
So, here we come to the first fundamental moral problem: what resolution of the trilemma of coexistence, what way to ease its tension, we ought to prefer? My answer is clear: if we value the intrinsic freedom each of us possess, both in our-Selves and in Others, we ought to choose comradeship; yet the choice of parting ought to be kept as an open option if the attempt to reach comradeship fails; and struggle may also be employed of the case of our-Selves or Others being forced into subjugation, which is the unethical, the ethically unacceptable, resolution. Why is it unethical and unacceptable? Well, because it deprives the Selves which are being subjugated of their inherent autonomous agency and turns them into objects and instruments of Others; it destroys the freedom of each Self that is the foundation of any morality, any ethics whatsoever. There is no “morality of slavery”, and there can never be one: the very nature of slavery is non-moral, since it is a relationship based on brute force, on the domination and submission to it, rather than on the interaction of freedoms.
And, conversely, any voluntary, mutual, consensual contact has a moral fundament: even if the participants of such contact has never bothered themselves with any sophisticated ethical concepts, their course of action – the respect of each other’s will and decision – is a moral one even if it was never consciously called one, even if it was just a natural, spontaneous expression of the intuitive recognition of free agency both in another participant of a contact and in oneself.
Yet, now we have to recall that this relationship, the basic dynamics of which I have described above, does not happen in a vacuum: it happens in an experiential world, with all of its participants experiencing an embodiment within an environment – with all sensuality and affectivity such embodiment brings with itself, including the complex experiential phenomena of sexuality. These shared sensual-sexual-affective, environment-immersed experiences provides a whole new dimension to the relationship, since they create both the community in which we dwell and to which we relate, and the habitat which this community inhabits and that it uses for its needs. It is this entrance into the shared experiential world that elevate us from simple free selves into complex world-integrated (as yet world-changing) persons, with all our passions, desires and needs.
2. SENSUALITY AND AFFECTIVITY, ENVIRONMENT AND COMMUNITY: BEING-IN-THE-WORLD
When we enter the state of embodiment with our birth as a human infant, the first connection to it, the first demarcated experiential event to which we can relate, is a positive bodily sensual contact with other human beings who are taking care of us. From these friendly and joyful touches the first affections arise, the first emotional bonds with the humans who bring us joyful sensations form. It is the time when the positive affectionate-sensual feedback of empathy: the infant’s Self, with its inborn social intuition of the Other’s selfhood, is combined with, and immersed into, the sensual contact and affective bond that it feels to the other sensing and feeling person. It creates the sense of mutual care: I care for the ones who care about me, I joy when they joy, I am hurt when they are hurt – and I desire joy and not suffering both for the others and for myself. This interpenetration of conscious will, sensual desire and affective bond is what creates a prolonged positive relationship, which may include sexuality to the degree which the participants of it mutually desire. And such desire is common and natural for the human beings of all ages and genders, being an integral part of our inborn sensual-affective potential and the relations in which it manifests.
And these interpersonal relations are not exclusive to human beings: since the conscious-volitional and sensual-affective traits are shared by animals as well, the interpersonal relationships are possible, and common, between humans and animals (and, of course, between animals themselves…) as well. The animals with whom we live and to whom we care (and they care about us as well) are also part of the interpersonal structure of relations which we create between ourselves.
It is also important to notice the targets of our sensual-affective bonds are not limited to the living – conscious-volitional and sensual-affective – beings; we feel emotional and sensory connection to the inanimate objects as well, such as places where we live and the things which we possess. Our home and our belongings are valuable for us, and we care for them.
These constellation of persons who willingly belong to each other emotionally, and reach each other sensually, and care about each other’s well-being; the things which they possess and use; and the land where they live and which products they gather – that is what form a community. And such a community may provide both sustenance and company to each person belonging to it… or it may not. Unfortunately, the communality – as well as sensuality, sexuality and affectivity on which it is based – also have its own dark side. The community may be open, free and egalitarian, based on the mutuality and voluntariness expressed by its members. But it also may be closed, authoritarian and harshly hierarchical, based on a subjugation of some of its members by the others via the forceful and painful contact. Or it may be based on the suppression of any sensual contact altogether and thus on mutual affective isolation as well, thus producing the impersonal, bureaucratic-style relations. And, in the two latter cases, the sensuality and affectivity that serve as basis of an empathic feedback between persons can be twisted to suppress this very empathy and either produce either brutality or alienation on an interpersonal, communal level. These two negative reversals of sensual-affective bonds, of empathy – brutality-based one and alienation-based one – are different in many respects, yet both are based on a suppression of an egalitarian sensual-affective relationships and contacts.
The positive sensuality – from which an empathetic emotionality arises – may be described as (dare I use this expression?) a “good touch”. By “good”, I do not mean “apparently non-sexual and thus accepted by the modern Western sexually-repressive Age Apartheid society”; I mean the sensual contact that is voluntary – it may be accepted or declined by any of the ones who practice it – and pleasant for all its participants; tender caress or willful sexual play are the good examples. In the free and egalitarian community, it is often common and acceptable for children to participate in the mutual “good touch” with others, including the adults, both who care about them initially and to whom they form voluntary sensuality-including (and sexuality-including, if both participants are desiring and willing) friendships. In contrast with it, brutality-based community is based on a “bad touch” – the involuntary and painful one, enforced by the people who are considered to be of the higher social standing (and thus form an entitled elite) to the ones who are lower to them on a social ladder. In such community, pain is especially actively inflicted by the adults on children whose social standing is the one of these adults’ dependents; thus, deliberate forceful infliction of pain and suffering is a common way of upbringing. What is worse, such infliction is not just a way to make a child suffer; it is a mean to the end of subjugating the children’s will to the forcefully manifested will of adults, who effectively serve the role of the entitled elite in the intergenerational relations: even the adults occupying the very bottom of the social ladder in their relationships with other adults can feel themselves as elite rulers in the relationships with their children (and act accordingly). As a result, the rigidly hierarchical, dominant-submissive structure of relationships in created and maintained within a brutality-based community. It leads to a militarised – brutality-based, as I would call it – community that is arbitrarily ruled by hierarchy of force, and this force is worshipped; where initiatory violence against other human beings is socially acceptable, and even socially prescribed, if it is initiated by the entitled elite who is supposed to have the “right” to do so. Usually, the hierarchy is personified in the figure of a power-wielding dictator, who is simultaneously revered and feared by the subjugated populace. The physical torture and execution – which may be public and spectacular – are the common ways to deal with dissenting, let alone rebellious, members.
Such brutality-based communities, however, have a side which, in a bit twisted fashion, may be even called “positive”: their violence is so spectacular – and so overtly personified by a dictator figure – that it is very easy to expose it, to condemn it and to fight against it. When the enemy is so concrete and visible, and its cruel deeds are so public and demonstrative, the mass insurrection of tormented and oppressed people is relatively easy to achieve. One can say, that, despite all their proclaimed “superiority” in the relations with their subjects, the elites of the brutality-based communities are in fact relatively close to their alleged “inferiors” – to hurt someone, you have to be in touch with someone; and it is relatively easy to these alleged “inferiors” to touch their “superiors” back in the same forceful and painful fashion that they prefer. The situation with the other type of repressive communities – alienation-based ones – are much more difficult to resolve.
If the basic sensual practice of the brutality-based community is “bad touch” – the infliction of pain – then such practice of an alienation-based communities can be described as “no touch” – the suppression of any sensual-sexual-affective contact. It is the community of apparently detached, “impersonal”, formalised cruelty. It is, as much as brutality-based one, starts with oppressive and punitive child-rearing, yet this intergenerational oppression takes very different forms. Instead of being based on infliction of pain, it finds its foundation in a constant deprivation of pleasure. So it uses social and somatic isolation as a common punitive practice: it starts from time-outs and corner-time in childhood, proceeds through groundings and detentions in adolescence and ends in arrests and imprisonments in adulthood. Yet even in non-punitive situations, the sensual contact between children and adults is generally considered unacceptable and thus limited to a few socially entitled adults (usually parents) – and even in their case is approved only in demonstratively desexualised situations, and to a small degree. This sensual deprivation is combined with strict social segregation between generations, which may take the forms only adequately characterised as the Age Apartheid.
Such pleasure-deprived, relationship-limiting upbringing tend to turn children into the adults who live in a state which I may describe, no matter how tautologically it may sound, as “partial parting” – the situation when people are co-existing with each other yet feel (and act) in way as if they were completely apart, isolated from each other; to maintain such close-and-yet-apart social condition, they make their interaction extremely formalised and ritualised, based on an obedient adherence to the strict and rigid (and yet, in fact, quite arbitrary) rules and norms.
The problem of such society is that such deprivation of pleasure and segregation between age groups, being strongly – and unnecessary – stressful to sensual and social beings that human beings are, do not destroy aggression; it just hides it behind fake formal politeness. So, thus appearing as much less violent than brutality-based community on a surface, alienation-based one, in fact, only a bit less violent than it; violence is just made covert, non-spectacular, hidden from the public gaze. It is also hidden from a public thought with a system of euphemisms. Such “shameful violence” is seen in torture, assassination and war propaganda programs of the intelligence services, described by their participants with a bureaucratic language of “interrogations”, “neutralisations”, “informational operations” and so on; in the prisons and other where human spirit is being intentionally suppressed and it is called “correction” or even “rehabilitation”; in the psychiatric and psychological clinics, where human spirit is not just suppressed but literally devastated, and such devastation is being described as “therapy” and “medical treatment”. It is seen in the fact that in “no touch” communities, “good touch” are repressed with much more fervour than the “bad” one – try to compare that fate of the person who gave a cruel, violent beating to the child who was obviously unwilling to receive it, with the one of a person who touched child sexually, with a child’s overt consent and pleasure. Whose future is much more bleak and ugly in the “no touch” society – one of the violent assaulters or one of the “sex offenders”? I think everyone here knows the answer…
Yet why people tend to keep “bad touch” and “no touch” conditions for so long, despite the fact that they bring them so much anguish? Well, oftentimes because they believe, intellectually, that they must act in this way because of some supposedly “objective” (yet, in fact, quite imaginary) “necessity”. So, here I come to the third and the last part of my essay, which is dedicated to the deep connection between morality and knowledge – or, to be more precise, what people believe to be knowledge.
3. MORALITY AND KNOWLEDGE, ACTION AND UNDERSTADING: HOW IDEAS CAN BECOME CRUEL
Human beings are, generally, empathic types. Tormenting and killing their fellow humans, and even animals, are hard and unpleasant actions to the most of them. Even socially-enforced brutality or alienation are usually not enough, in themselves, to drive most people to committing atrocities. Yet, as history painfully shows, countless atrocities were committed by human beings – by large masses of human beings, in fact. Why? One part of the answer is the sensual-social dynamics I described above; the other one – and, in many cases, the larger one – is the intellectually-constructed (and yet, importantly, socially-connected and thus emotionally-charged) beliefs that were in the minds of the people willingly participating in the atrocious acts.
Such beliefs may be crudely separated into two large groups. The first ones are presented (and perceived) by their defenders as indubitable axioms, forever immune from any refutation. Other ones are formally verifiable and falsifiable positions, usually drawn from the scientific research, that, however, in practice are treated by their followers if they were indubitable axioms. In both cases, such beliefs are aggressively enforced by the large part of society and, especially, by the societal elites. They are deeply emotionally significant for their supporters. Being so, they effectively serve as a supposedly “absolute” (in the first case) or “objective” (in the second case) basis for moral acts of the people who adhere to them. And to doubt such supposedly “absolute” or “objective” statements, even if in an clearly evidential or logical way, is to encourage furious repressive measures against oneself.
The first group of beliefs that may serve as a moral demands strong enough to justify acting in an non-empathetic way are religious and philosophical ideas. The religious ideas are oftentimes overtly and explicitly prescriptive, commanding the believers to act in an outright cruel way to fulfill the supposed laws and commands of a deity. In the case of the philosophical systems, prescriptions may take more covert and implicit forms.
The good example of such implicit prescriptions is the dominant philosophical ontology of the modern Western(ised) cultures, materialism, that has encouraged a lot of cruel practices. Here I won’t go a common road of pointing to the mass violence of the militantly materialistic ideocratic regimes like Stalinism or Nazism. Decrying the grandiose atrocities is necessary, yet also a bit too easy; I would prefer to point to the much less spectacularly gruesome, yet still, in fact, quite cruel everyday practice of marginalisation and pathologisation of the people who either personally encountered some phenomena that are deemed “impossible” by the materialistic worldview (such as psychic phenomena like ESP or psychokinesis), or tried to research them in some way, or even simply defended the possibility of their existence. In all these cases, they can expect to encounter, at least, intense ridicule, insults and personal attacks from the numerous “defenders of science”. People who try to study such phenomena may have severe professional problems, such as breakdown of career or loss of funding, especially in academia. And the persons who experienced such phenomena personally may, at the worst cases, be simply declared insane and forced into psychiatric torture-styled “treatment”.
This is not to say that all materialists act in such way. There are some of them who are much more tolerant to the unknown and to the people who deal with it; in fact, there were (and are) a few active parapsychologists who were dedicated materialists. Yet the materialism-as-socially-dominant-worldview is implicitly prescribing the people who accept it to act in a way which, in fact, cruel.
From the other side, many of the followers of the initially dogmatic and highly violent traditional religions (and nearly all old, traditional religions were such, reflecting the mores of the eras of their birth) may take their religious views critically and choose themselves what parts of their religions to follow and what ones not to. It should be noted, however, that such critical attitude has become common among religious believers only after these religions were deprived of their social dominance.
So, an intellectual belief as such, in itself, is usually not enough to inspire cruel acts in persons who share such belief. It may do it if it is combined with social – and thus sensual-emotional – factors; the more socially intertwined and thus emotionally (and sensually) charged the belief is, the more angrily and aggressively its followers are likely to act. The interaction between imaginal-intellectual cultural notion and sensual-emotional social (and thus, implicitly, personal) structure tend to take the form of a “vicious circle” where cultural notions and social structures are constantly mutually reinforcing one another. This is, to a differing extent, true in the cases of all social structures – while authoritarian and hierarchical social structures are especially prone to such explosive mixture of passion and mentation, free and egalitarian societies are far from being immune to it.
Now we come to the second group of beliefs which may be used to prescribe cruel acts toward others: ones which are connected with science – or, to be more precise, with the science taken, and used, as a social authority and a justification-producing part of the power-structure. Here I can make a good case study of the mutual sociocultural enforcement I describe above is the current cultural notion of the “scientific consensus” – and the social structure of “expertocracy” which is intertwined with it.
Originally, science has entirely no emphasis on consensus-building – in fact, it was literally anti-consensus. On its birth, science was a rebellious practice, being based on an idea that a single individual may be more correct and justified in his views than nearly everyone else, if the evidence and argumentation presented by such individual would be found to be superior. Such postulation of the free personal search for the truth was the direct opposite to the appeal to authority commonly practiced by the then-dominant social worldview of the Christian Church (be it Catholic one or one of the many Protestant ones). Later, science was accepted, glorified and exalted by the Western society; it changed from a rebellion into a respectable, establishment practice. And such social ascension had its very dark side: scientific community began to turn from an open gathering of enthusiastic truth-seekers to the corporate organisation of professional “experts”, thus bonding itself with the power-structures of society. It has become increasingly commercialised, politicised and (to call it so) moralised, bowing to the increasing pressure and temptation to serve as a producer of technically-sounding justifications of the dominant social practices and structures.
After the World War II, the corporatisation of science was essentially complete: it became not just bonded with the power-structures, but effectively immersed in them: respectable experts became the priests of the secular age, entering the ruling elite and forming its integral part. That’s why in the 1980s, for the first time in the history of science (and society) in a major public science-related controversy – a debate about the reality of the anthropogenic global warming – decisions were justified by the appeals not to evidence and logic, but simply to the authority of the majority of respectable experts: to the so-called “scientific consensus”. Since then, a new social practice was installed, one that I may call “compulsory unlimited trust”: non-experts were supposed – in fact, tacitly yet powerfully commanded by the social authorities – to take any currently dominant expert opinion simply on faith in the experts’ authority, without any reasonable doubt or critical examination of their statements whatsoever. To question the expert majority positions and positions espoused by it is to become a target for social enforcement, varying from ridicule and insults to professional ruin and social marginalisation.
The result was as counter-productive as it may get: most public science-related controversies turned from a relatively rational discussions into completely irrational, passionate ideological battles, with take-no-prisoners approach. Now decisions were usually presented as simply black-and-white: either you accept each and every currently dominant scientific model and proposal (and thus “pro-science”), or you are an “anti-science denialist”. Any possibility of meaningful and productive dialogue – rather than the hostile confrontation – between the supporters and the critics of, say, anthropogenic global warming was erased, and with it, the possibility of finding really effective and safe technical solutions of the problems humanity face. For example, a debate on the safety of GMOs is usually reduced either to full and uncritical “pro-science” acceptance of any GMOs or the “anti-science” rejection of any of them. Or the debate about the safety of some vaccines is usually portrayed as a choice only between “pro-science” usage of all and any vaccines currently prescribed or the “anti-science” rejection of vaccination as such (while any intermediate positions – say, to vaccinate, yet in less amounts, less tight regimes and with some but not all vaccines – is largely unrepresented in the public mind).
That’s why, I think, we should agree that the search for the objective – and, thus, method-based rather than consensus-based – understanding is a necessary prerequisite for a moral act, since we can only act beneficially towards ourselves and others if we can effectively orientate ourselves in the actual situation in which we find ourselves and make reliable predictions about its development; and science as a free yet methodologically rigourous search is still the best instrument of obtaining objective understanding humanity has yet devised. We should not forget that a moral choice which is badly misguided about the actual or potential state of events may be terribly damaging for everyone, even if the intent was entirely empathetic and well-meaning.
So, if one will to act in way which is genuinely beneficial, one should learn to listen to and look to the all sides of the conflict, be they “mainstream” or “fringe”, since both may possess some reliable knowledge of the situation. Otherwise, we may act in a harmful way without even intending it. The practice of listening only to your own side’s arguments, looking only at your side’s evidence is the easiest way to harmful and yet persistent mistakes. This is especially important to remember to the all “defenders of science” and other “mainstream” watchdogs, who refuse to recognize the “fringe” groups as the participants of the debate (sometimes they refuse to recognize even the very existence of the debate).
4. SOME CONCLUDING REMARKS
Not to be misunderstood, I want to make clear: despite all my appeals to compassion and open dialogue, I do not think that every and any problem may be resolved as a part of a peaceful debate and cooperation. Sometimes, there is no making peace with the ones who willingly try to subjugate others – they simply won’t stop their subjugation attempts, until being forced to do so. The brutal and alienating social structures, as well as cultural notions that support and perpetuate them, are part of the reason while some people oppress others. But other, and crucially important, part of this reason was mentioned by me in the beginning: we are free beings, with the selfhood and will that may be suppressed by the circumstances of our life, but never die completely. So, even if we are free and equal, happy and satisfied, we can still willingly choose to act in a cruel and enslaving way toward others.
This is probably the greatest paradox of ethics: the root of slavery – which is, as I have told above, is based on a suppression of the other Self’s intrinsic agency and thus non-moral – actually lies in freedom, in the Self’s moral capacity, since only a free agent, a Self, can enslave another Self with an act of its free will; and, what even worse, the enslaved Self may submit to enslavement, thus effectively accepting the suppression of its agency. Yet to destroy freedom in the fear that the ones may enslave the others is to enslave everyone, thus creating the very slavery that was apparently prevented.
So, while we can sometimes use force to dismantle the structures of oppression and torment, we should always be careful not to reinstate these very structures under the protectionist guise. The tyranny that is based on honest yet misguided benevolence may easily turned out to be more cruel that the one ruled by power-hungry scoundrels.
well i’m a materialist so….
interesting take tho. would it be fair to say intuitionist?
i’m comfortable with yr phenomenological ontology and its existential solipsism (which after all isnt a million miles from empiricism) but i think you underestimate the logical heft of an ojective scientific worldview.
for example, much of what you describe from the perspective of a single experiencing subject (eg ‘will’, prosociality or ‘goodwill’, affect, sexual appetite etc) can all be understood in biological/evolutionary terms as internal states or phenomena shared by all humans, all primates, all mammals and so on.
i’m not heavily into occult matters or parapsychology but i guess you can understand it metaphorically as a logical structure placed around the often illogical phenomenon of consciousness. i think maybe Kant was addressing this kind of impulse in his critiques. in terms of idealism, you have to scrape back the basis of the ‘ideal’ in a rigorous way before you get at anything othrr than just another product of mental processes.
that is the ‘a priori’ stuff we know such as 1+1=2 and ‘red’ != ‘green’
so is morality a priori? ie, a given, derivable from first principles (as the universalists have it) or is it fundamentally emotional, intuitive and subjective (Hume’s IS != OUGHT)?
I think this is another case of supervenience, where arguments shift according to the level of organization of the context. We talk about ‘morality’ and ‘ethics’ as if they were discrete concepts, but actally they are complex constellations of ideas and feelings. the ‘ethics’ of international law are quite a different beat to the personal ethics i deploy in my personal relationships.
much of the discourse is generated by attempts to recocile these different levels of analysis, but (as i already said) i’m skeptical of theories of everything. I think the best we can do is refine our capacity to think clearly at each level (whether intuitive/emotional or lexical) and to understand the influences and communications each has with the other!
Without having read the whole piece, my initial response is that your ideas start from the premise of individuality, but I tend to believe, quite strongly, that humanity is a herd animal, and that it is therefore inaccurate to talk of morality in terms of individuality, and individual trilemmas.
But, I will read more…
tbe herd argument is interesting. no man is an island, etc.
but its also interesting to compare the very rigorous arguments against group selection in evolutionary theory with attempts to replace individual with social realities. theres some interesting stuff in the mirkin article linked above, vis a vis social constructionism.
one thing about science: it does allow a solitary practice (in theory at least).
==============
High Country Weather
– James K. Baxter
Alone we are born
and die alone;
Yet see the red-gold cirrus
over snow-mountain shine.
Upon the upland road
Ride easy, stranger:
Surrender to the sky
Your heart of anger.
Hi Explorer,
It does not require going much past your first paragraph to notice a fallacy in your understanding of morality. Your alternative contention to a materialistic viewpoint seems to rest on the existence of a “ghost in the machine”. In his book, “The Blank Slate”, Stephen Pinker gives a good treatment of why this notion does not make sense.
By “ghost” I am referring to all the concepts that comprise the “immaterialist worldview(s)” you cite. If these could be systematically studied then we would be back at square one and could not escape the “predetermined … mechanism of ‘nature’”. Any phenomenon that cannot be systematically studied could only be considered random or influenced by the singular and unpredictable action of a supernatural being. Where is morality if the reason for one’s action can only be explained in this way as opposed to the mechanisms of one’s biology?
The latter is the better explanation. There is plenty of evidence for a physical basis to morality. Diseases of the brain or accidents damaging parts of the brain have shown how such affect moral behavior. Studies involving higher level animals also indicate elements of moral behavior. It is quite reasonable to see that moral behavior is a necessary evolutionary adaptation in the survival of social animals with human beings being at the apex of this evolution.
The fallacy in assuming that because acts are predetermined there is no basis for acting morally is that the feeling of guilt, for most people, in contravening social norms or their own individual value system (also environmentally influenced) is a built in function. Those that lack it to various extents are considered sociopaths or psychopaths.
The innate ability of most human beings to absorb a moral viewpoint is very much dependent on the environments they find themselves in. This is no different than the ability of human beings to absorb the language of their particular societies. Moral codes vary as much as linguistic expressions.
John Calvin was aware of the concept of predestination but on a religious basis. I suppose that Calvinists behaved morally because to do otherwise would convince them that they were not chosen by God (who, as many believe is as omniscient as Santa Claus — the one who knows who’s been bad or good as well as everything else).
With all this said, social sanctions against behavior considered criminal become part of the causal chain that stop most people from committing heinous acts. In the infamous case of Leopold and Loeb, a different causal element had the effect of their abandoning a moral principle in a way that most people would find abhorrent.
Even those who hold to a materialistic world view would have to agree that however imperfect a society’s laws may be, they are a necessary element in keeping that society stable. From the opinions of many on this blog, it would seem that a modified set of laws would make for a much better stable society.
This piece is entirely the result of the physical influences on my brain up to the time of writing including the physical input of the light from the print in Explorer’s essay impinging on my retina.
I find the philosophical comments about the ethics interesting. I agree with Explorer that some form of panpsychism provides a more useful philosophical foundation for understanding the world than does the materialism that is the dominant philosophy among educated circles today. However, as a research professor I once had was fond of saying, “a difference in order to be a difference has to make a difference.” In some situations the difference between panpsychism and materialism does actually make a difference with regard to how people behave. However, I’m not sure what differences would be made by affirming a panpsychic as opposed to a materialist perspective with regard to the issues we deal with here. So I don’t think I would encourage us to get into a knockdown and drag out over the issue.
However the ethical question that Explorer raises is quite relevant to our concerns. As Explorer points, out science does not address ethical issues. I think most scientists would be the first to insist on this. So let me formulate two philosophical questions that might be interesting for us to explore. The first question is this: is there an ethical principle (or principles) that most MAPs would share? Are there, in other words, criteria on which we, as MAPs, can all agree for judging whether something is right or wrong? The second question is similar. Are there common ethical principles that we and most of our opponents can be expected to share?
I raise these particular questions because without being able to establish a common philosophical value orientation, questions about whether this or that particular behavior or practice is good or bad tend to be pretty fruitless. The debaters are, in effect, ships passing in the night. If, for example, you are a firm believer in the philosophy of Ayn Rand, and I’m a staunch socialist, then our discussions about desirable economic and social policies within our country are not going to move ahead very well. In that situation, only the relative merits of the different philosophies are worth discussing.
Returning to the questions that I suggested might be productive, let me suggest a single answer to both of them: the appropriate value context within which the rightness or wrongness of specific behaviors and institutional practices should be discussed – both among MAPs, and between MAPs and non-MAPs – can be summarized as the ideal of the free society. I would be the first to insist that, as one attempts to put this kind of principle into practice, it becomes complex. However, if we do not start with fairly clear and simple principles, it becomes not only complex but hopelessly so. Therefore I’m going to offer a simple definition of what I mean by a free society:
A free society is one in which individuals, families and groups are, in general, able to live they choose so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others. It is the kind of society that the Bill of Rights in the United States intended to secure and protect. With regard to the activities of individuals in private relationships, in a free society only two criteria would be considered acceptable justification for government intervention: either harm, or lack of consent.
I’m suggesting that we keep our discussion largely outside the realm of economics. I think it’s possible to discuss the ethics of personal relationships without giving too much thought to the ethics of economics. So the idea of a “free society,” as I am using the term, does not include the economic theory that libertarians would tend to attach to it.
this is great.
I guess my own ‘panpsychism’ would reduce to our common evolutionary history and shared environmental patterns shaping our emotional and cognitive development. which is an empirical observation and not a metaphysical one.
it might interest you to know that my deeply personal animism is similarly compatible with my scientific materialist world view.
but I really agree with you that ‘a free society’ is a common value. I guess it’s somewhat tautological to say this, since moral concepts like ‘ought’ and ‘should’ are first and foremost constraints, so not just antithetical to but in a real sense the inverse of freedom.
but freedom is a word we can understand, unlike ‘ought’ and ‘should’, which beg the question of “according to whom?”
Sorry Explorer,
I think that you’ll find that the virulent opponents of paedosexuality in our world care not on FIG for either, morality or philosophy.
They wish to stamp us out, like some foul disease, and their understanding of the word ‘volition’ is probably that it is something to do with electricity…
I am sorry to be such a Jonah, but how can your no doubt well-intentioned words have anything to do with the reality of our lives in the absolutely bloody world of now?
M T-W.
I am going to publish a German translation of the paper, which will be available under the CC-BY-SA license.
Superb! Great stuff, Thomas!
Judging by a comment on another work you translated, my writing is in very good hands with you, Thomas:
“The publisher and translator Thomas Leske has created a book that is qualitatively no different from the publications of large publishers.”
– Andreas Müller, publicist and translator on Novo arguments
[This is Google’s translation from the German original, not mine!]
I love your website, by the way: very aesthetic. Beautiful!
Thank you! My Website just uses the default theme of the CMS Drupal 7.
I am a computer scientist (Diplom-Informatiker) and really liked the ideas of Michael Huemer, so I became a dedicated amateur in translation and publishing. I thought that there could be a market for Huemer’s papers on immigration and guncontrol during the Germany’s immigration crisis and the gun control debate in the EU. Unfortunately it did not work, because except for some other libertarians nobody seems to care about ethics.
Thanks a lot for making your paper available with a free license (free as in freedom)! Though Michael Huemer was very cooperative, it took months to get the permissions from the publishers even when most of them gave permission for the translation free of charge.
Anyone has my permission to translate, but I am very pleased that you in particular have stepped forward to do a German version. I am sure you will do a great job!
To the German-speaking readers of this blog:
please, proofread (and enjoy) my almost complete translation at: http://leske.biz/unschuld
Of course I have already proofread the text myself several times. But one tends to miss one’s own mistakes.
Thanks for your help
>my almost complete translation
Your translation is already complete in the sense that the entire text has now been translated. Thus the “almost” appears to relate just to the final polishing and perhaps a few translator’s footnotes.
To have completed this work so quickly (or to be very near completion) is a magnificent effort. Well done, Thomas!
Thanks!
However I haven’t translated the most important section, yet: “5 An Alternative Ideal”.
I did the translation out of order, because many readers will read the Conclusion right after the abstract. And because section 5 is so long, I jumped to section 6 …
And you know, that computer science is about parallelizing: Proofreading and translation can happen in parallel. 🙂
> I haven’t translated the most important section, yet
Oh, right, I stand corrected. Still very quick though!
I have completed the translation. Please copy and share:
http://leske.biz/unschuld
Amos Yee did a lot better in this debate, but it was painful to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ExN4TZbgw
Also, there is an Easter egg at 1:41:00. Here is the long version of that message posted in the comment section:
“Weebo’s studies are inherently biased because they use clinical samples from people in psychological therapy due to their abuse, most of whom were forced in to non-consensual relationships. Obviously if you only study people who have been harmed then you’ll come to the conclusion that the thing you’re studying (adult-child sex in this case) is harmful.?”
They included the pre-Amos footage, so now that part is at 2:56:00. Notice how she didn’t respond to the fact that she uses clinical samples. She just wants all pedophiles to be castrated. She’s a lunatic.
Difficult to watch being an understatement. I think it’s fair to say these ignorant fools would wish electrocution on us, but at least we are not in need of elocution.
Amos Yee’s blog is suspended by the HostGator:
http://amosyeebanana.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi
How predictable. Happily, his Twitter, Facebook and Patreon pages are not blocked… yet.
That is not surprising. HostGator is a piece of shit. Heart Progress used to use them as well. There are better web hosts out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM-54skH6IE
http://www.neonnettle.com/news/4110-india-hangs-first-pedophile-under-strict-new-laws-they-re-demons-
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/12/us/delaware-child-marriage-ban/index.html
The report from India gives an even more misleading use of the word “paedophile” than we see in the western media. The crimes described in this account are more about ethnic hatred and politics than the headline suggests.
The story also mentions a recent gang rape of a young girl but does not even mention the fact that the child was held captive for a week in a Hindu temple (apparently by the Hindu “faithful” of the area) and then murdered: strangled and battered with a stone.
According to the charge sheet, the kidnapping, rape and killing of the girl was part of a plan to drive nomads out of Kathua district in Jammu, the mostly Hindu region of India’s only Muslim majority state. See here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/16/eight-court-india-rape-murder-kashmir-girl-bjp
In the West there is a largely imaginary problem of so-called “date rape”. In India there is clearly a very real and horrible problem of what we might call “hate rape”, sometimes by gangs and with beating and murder involved.
Heretic TOC had a piece about one terrible story of this kind that occurred towards the end of 2012: No wonder women turn against ‘teasing’:
https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/no-wonder-women-turn-against-teasing/
In the context of these awful crimes it is not really so surprising or indeed unreasonable in a country that already has the death penalty to extend it to the rape of children.
given the complicity of high caste hindu conservatives, including politicians, in these revolting crimes, i fully expect “paedophiles” to serve as scapegoats, deflecting attention from the real perps.
Agreed
These Indian gang rapes and murders are still somewhat rare. India is one of the largest countries in the world and also relatively poor so inevitably the feminazis will be able to find the very occasional case of a woman being raped and murdered. But this is far from the norm, and I’m sure men in India are still on the receiving end of the worst of the violence. Indeed, according to 2012 homicide statistics whilst female homicides are higher in India than some other countries it is still the case that Indian men are more likely to be murdered than Indian females: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_statistics_by_gender
So I don’t think it’s a natural response to introduce the death penalty for child rape at all. Especially when they haven’t introduced it for rape AFAIK – they’ve introduced it for consensual sex. This is a gynocentric ideological response which has manifested itself either due to Western interference in Indian values or because something to do with the modern technological society causes feminism.
Got a question, is it true that human being have sexual responses even as far back as the fetal stage?
yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT1GPnWYT3A
Tom
have you ever seen this man how do u feel about him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rcg6f68WfI
Only seen the first few minutes so far. The guy seems very presentable: not at all how the public would expect a “predator” to be.
I see this vid came out in 2013. I find it surprising there have not been more viewers: around 600 seems very modest.
Tom
>re derek logue
do u respect him for coming for and does he deserve a second chance?
He comes across as a nice guy, an that alone is worthwhile. Respect him? Sure, why not?
His views seem quite conservative and apologetic, which not all of us here would agree with, but he succeeds in making many good points, about the arbitrary and counter-productive nature of public SO registries, for instance.
IT IS SO AWFUL WE REALLY NEED TO FREE THESE CHILDREN FROM THEIR PRISON AND I HOPE GENUINE LOVING PARENTS WHO WANT TO PROTECT THESE POTENTIAL SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVORS GIVE ME A THUMBS UP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi0GrFgPH9Y
THERE IS A CRISIS GOING ON ALL OVER THE UK THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN WHO POSE NO REAL RISK TO SOCIETY ARE BEING UNFAIRLY IMPRISONED AND BRANDED AS SEX OFFENDERS THESE CHILDREN OFTEN SUFFER MUCH NEGLECT INCLUDING HIDDEN EMOTIONAL ABUSE, SEXUAL ABUSE AND STIGMATISATION MANY HAVE LEARNING DIFFICULTIES THEY ARE ALSO SUBJECT TO BULLYING HARASSMENT WHICH IN MY MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO DO TO A CHILD THE ABUSE THESE CHILDREN ARE SUBJECTED TO THEMSELVES IS TRIPLE THAN WHAT THEY DESERVE AND GIVEN THE CURRENT STATE OF THINGS WE ARE POWERLESS TO END THIS HARM,AND I WANT TO DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO MAKE SURE THESE CHILDREN ARE SAFE IM NOT INTERESTED IN HAVING DIRECT INVOLVEMENT BUT I THINK AS CHILD LOVERS WE SHOULD AT LEAST DONATE AS MUCH AS WE CAN TO GENERATE MONEY IN ORDER TO HELP THEM LIVE HAPPY INDEPENDENT LIVES.
,
On ‘Unreported World’ (channel four) Evil in Paradise, They visited the Dominican Republic, Reporting on ‘sex tourism’…Many tourists from Europe and the US exploiting teenagers there. I thought they’d fish out some horror stories but there was none on this documentary. They were really scraping the barrel trying to make these girls look like victims, but it was quite the reverse. I shared a video on attitudes to sex in Dominica a few months ago, but the YT account has since closed down.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world
YT accounts tend to get shut down if you express unpopular views on them. If someone hits the flag button, your video is down, and if you get just a few complaints, down goes your entire account. Expressing nuanced views regarding this particular topic is automatically in violation of the nebulously defined “community standards” set by the administration.
Or having allegations against you, like Spotify with R Kelly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMj16A7j4RM
Look at these lovely animals I bet they don’t have an aoc law lol and I hope one day we can rejoice just like them
In the times of crusades when Robin Hood (not sure whether he had some actual historical prototype or was just a legend) is supposed to have lived, there was surely no AoC – if my memory serves me well, it was introduced in the British Empire only in the early 19th century!
So, if Robin Hood wanted to have some good time with young ladies – with the ladies’ agreement, of course! – he needed not to bother himself whether these ladies are TOO young…
If the various early references to Robin Hood are anything to go by, this legendary figure may have actually lived a few years before the first surviving written record of the age of consent in the Statute of Westminster on 1275. However, this statute is thought to have been a formal declaration of what had already been established by “common law” i.e. case law over the years, which was itself rooted in tradition.
according to wiki the earliest writing of robin hood was in the 15 century year 1450 so it would have been after the statue of Westminster.
Well, make of them what you will, but I find these 13th century references (also from Wiki) quite impressive:
“The oldest references to Robin Hood are not historical records, or even ballads recounting his exploits, but hints and allusions found in various works. From 1261 onward, the names ‘Robinhood’, ‘Robehod’ or ‘Robbehod’ occur in the rolls of several English Justices as nicknames or descriptions of malefactors. The majority of these references date from the late 13th century. Between 1261 and 1300, there are at least eight references to ‘Rabunhod’ in various regions across England, from Berkshire in the south to York in the north.”
Tom re robin hood
I will have another look
its possible ‘robbing hood’ was simply a slang term for a highwayman. what might today just be called a ‘hood’ (probably wearing in a hoodie).
Interesting. There is a new organization called the Indiana Freedom Alliance.
https://www.in-freedom-alliance.org/about-us/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfa2_qx8SwQ
Here is the website of the Indiana Freedom Alliance:
https://www.in-freedom-alliance.org/
And the personal page of their founder, Michael A. Christianson:
https://www.michael-adam-christianson-laporte-indiana.info/
Apparently it is a new pro-paedosexuality group… and it is also, as far as I can see for now, child / youth liberationist and pro-contact. A wonderful development!
Their website is still not complete, considering the fact that many of their links are broken. Anyway, I wonder if this is another attempt from Heart Progress. The founder does have a LinkedIn acccount, and he lists his credentials on there. Maybe Heart Progress is using real people to further their agenda. We can’t really know.
It seems these people want to act on a national level, with creating of the North American Freedom Alliance:
http://www.rcnafa.org/
If their efforts are real and serious – and I hope so – I wish them luck! They would need it.
P.S. I’m still not sure about long-defunct Heart Progress – were they a real activist group or just a troll front? In a controversial, “fringe” areas like ours one has to employ some reasonable caution dealing with the new groups and persons. For now, at the first glance, Freedom Alliance seems to be a serious gathering… yet, let’s wait a bit and see.
We can’t know what Heart Progress’s true motives were. However, they appear to be something that would come out of 4chan /pol/. The amount of ridiculous SJW shit that they would support is evidence of that. I do know that some actual pedophiles joined their organization later on, but I doubt that the original founders were actually pedophiles or even pedophile supporters.
At first, I imagined that someone had smuggled in Tom’s book using the same method often employed for smuggling in mobiles and quickly realized, given the sheer size of that mighty work, that it would require some extraordinary posterior elasticity (and a high threshold for pain) to make it fit. You’d REALLY have to want to read that book, great though it certainly is! We used to use false-covers for books in prison, too. You could say that the Bible often saved me and revealed to me a much higher purpose.
LOL! Reminds me of when, as a young man, I first heard about fist fucking on the gay scene. I couldn’t believe it at first, but apparently there really is such a thing.
Anyway, a few weeks after hearing this, and gradually coming to accept it as an actual possibility, the young gay guy who told me about fist fucking had some news. Totally deadpan, he asked if I’d heard the latest fashionable thing.
“No,” I said, “What’s that?”
“Head fucking,” he assured me solemnly.
By “head fucking,” did he mean it in the metaphorical manner I suspect he did, given the circumstances under which it was mentioned?
No, he meant literally!
omg!
>omg!
Quite. That was pretty much my response until a moment’s reflection told me the act would be anatomically impossible. My friend was having a laugh!
ok Tom you have my attention how does one head fuck
>how does one head fuck
With difficulty! In all seriousness, I don’t think one one does. Or I certainly don’t. Even if it were possible, it would be hard to imagine anything more unpleasant for either party.
On the other hand, we were arguably all head fuckers once: on the day of our birth. Unless we we born by Caesarean Section.
Tom
>With difficulty! In all seriousness, I don’t think one one does. Or I certainly don’t. Even if it were possible, it would be hard to imagine anything more unpleasant for either party.
On the other hand, we were arguably all head fuckers once: on the day of our birth. Unless we we born by Caesarean Section.
The only way i could think of doing it is by drilling a hole in someone head like cavemen used to do thinking it would cure a headache and putting my dick through the hole and well i assume you know the rest.
hope this works
Ed Chambers
>I don’t think I ever got to know my old man.
I knew my dad wen I was young child but only had any kind of relationship with him up until the age of 10 maybe 12 and then I stopped seeing him because my mum told me that he sed to her that he never wanted to see me again, then a few years later on wen I was a teenager I bumped into him whilst playing out and sed hello and asked him if he wanted to do something with me he sed yes so I started visiting him once a week at his house and sometimes he was ok but other times he was ie accusing me of arranging with my mum to get money out of him (I think the reason for that is cos my mum has told me in the past that wen they split he wouldn’t pay any child support and that she had to find the money to bring me up on her own) which wasn’t the case and I couldn’t understand at the time why he was treating me like that, so after some time I stopped seeing him he contacted me once asking why I don’t go round anymore and I lied and sed that ive have been busy or something like that and sed that I would go round but I didn’t cos I didn’t want any grief and after that he never contacted me since.
>my mum told me that he sed to her that he never wanted to see me again
Heavy message for a kid. Very tough.
ive had worse plus its not that much of a big deal anymore
>ive had worse plus its not that much of a big deal anymore
Plus im starting to get the impression that parents are nothing more than meaningless figure heads anyway.
My father always provided, but some of the time did so very reluctantly. He was a begrudging father for the most part and it seems like he just wanted shot of all of us and to be left alone. I could see that and it left me confused and bitter. However, it looks like you’ve had it a lot worse, so sounds like you’re doing well all things considered.
I refer to Youth Liberations recent video, ‘PEDOPHILE comes out’, starting roughly five minutes eight seconds in :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZTUsYpGADw
Mrs Jane Elliot’s experimentation / demonstration concerning discrimination and demonisation, as Youth Liberation says :
‘They became miserable, frightened and paranoid. This was a microcosm of society. She demonstrated how racism, homophobia, and other discrimination ruins the lives of people and how easy it is for authoritarian figures to teach hate. I’ve personally confirmed with her that the same tactics are used to demonise pedophiles.’
I don’t know about anyone else here, but I guess I am not alone, but this is the kind of discrimination that has taken place in my life, regardless of whether anyone believes me or not. The truth will come out in time.
I believe you ed (wat ever it is) and the reason i believe is cos the unbelievable has happend to me.
I can only hope that enough people get to see and mentally digest Youth Liberation’s words before his account gets taken down.
Tom/Libertine
>Some MAPs would probably throw their lap-tops in the canal when broken, before taking them to the repair shop. I read somewhere they have a duty to report anything illegal that they may come across.
>Not environmentally sound. They should destroy any chips and recycle the rest.
Or could just smash it up and put it in the bin and destroy all chips but not had it that long it is a second hand machine and i dont have anything illegal on it so wasn’t a problem.
Lol, it’s true no doubt, people can panic and throw their laptops away, when all one needs to do is replace the hard drive, or wipe it, and start all over with the same machine.
>when all one needs to do is replace the hard drive
But most people would need to go to the repair shop for that, which is exactly what they may be desperate to avoid!
This is true Tom, but I’d guess at least half of those people who would simply, for whatever reason, go to the repair shop, they’d be quite capable of doing it themselves. They’d save quite a bit of money too, especially if it prevents people from binning the whole thing.
Ironically, they’d need a computer, although a ‘smart’ phone would suffice, to do the small amount of research in order to carry this out, and purchase the parts they need. It’s really not as hard as many would imagine.
>It’s really not as hard as many would imagine.
My occasional engagement with tech stuff tells me this is true, except that quite a lot of patience plus trial and error are often required before solutions work. Like a lot of people, I totally can’t be arsed unless it’s vitally important.
> I totally can’t be arsed unless it’s vitally important.
Lmao
Or, simply pull the hard drive and take it to the repair shop and say ‘Bought this on eBay. Needs a hard drive and an operating system.’
Only saying in order to help those who may be reading this and are considering binning their laptop because they’ve been eating cheese pizza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U23F8JuKKE
Thanks for that; Better than throwing the sledgehammer around, With debris flying everywhere!
There is no “cheese pizza” on this lap-top, I didn’t buy it new but it’s an Apple MacBook Pro and cost £400, So can’t afford to throw it away. If I could afford to throw away £400 computers as soon as they’re bust I’d have donated more to dangerous books lol.
Tom/Ed
>But most people would need to go to the repair shop for that, which is exactly what they may be desperate to avoid!
According to Jim Gamble not everybody who downloads child porn or anything like that go’s to prison cos there are that many ppl doing it that the public, police, courts ect don’t have the resources to deal with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mg7sUvZsv8
Governments need to look like they’re doing something to combat the ‘perversion’ when the simply reality is paedophilia is a positive part of human sexuality. Jim Gamble is a gimp who’s let out of his box from time to time to give a nice coat of gloss to ‘police work’ against ‘child abuse’.
Ed Chambers
>Jim Gamble is a gimp
like most ppl in his position not to mention any1 who has a reputation to protect is a KISS ASS
Ed Chambers
>re child porn
if society doesn’t except it then would you be open to virtual child porn in order to avoid the cases wer a child is genuinely abuse in a photograph and it might be something to help benefit society and help paedophiles with any ethical dilemmas they have.
I can’t see that virtual child porn has any victims, but of course people like Goode, Cantor, Grayson et al will always say that it encourages ‘contact behaviour’ which is not proven, whereas said porn could be proven to prevent ‘abusive behaviour’ in real terms or such behaviour regarded as so by the case of the CSA industry.
Simple reality is that that the restriction on any pornography is an impingement on the human rights of any human being, whereas the laws protect only those that are said to be at risk. Those at risk are stated as being so only as a matter of opinion.
>people like Goode, Cantor, Grayson et al will always say that it encourages ‘contact behaviour’
Goode, yes, Grayson, almost certainly althoughI haven’t checked; but Cantor has a different view, or did the last time I heard from him, which was admittedly not that recent.
Diamond M et al (2010). “Legalizing child pornography is linked to lower rates of child sex abuse”. Archives of Sexual Behavior. DOI 10.1007/s10508-010-9696-y
https://www.springer.com/about+springer/media/springer+select?SGWID=0-11001-6-1042321-0
“Speech we hate: An Argument for the Cessation of International Pressure on Japan to Strngthen Its Anti-Child Pornography Laws”
Alison Rapp
https://issuu.com/honorsreview/docs/volumeiv/6
Haven’t yet read Alison Rapp’s article, published in 2011, but it is well referenced and a quick glance suggests it could be a good essay along the positive lines suggested by the title. Unsurprisingly, she has paid a price for going against the mainstream: this article was cited against her before she was sacked a couple of years ago by Nintendo. See here:
“Nintendo denies Alison Rapp firing is linked to harassment campaign”
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/31/nintendo-denies-alison-rapp-firing-is-linked-to-harassment-campaign
wow. v interesting. I saw some evidence of that harassment but didn’t realise it had gone that far. pathetic.
hope she hasn’t paid a price for speaking truth to power. points up the irony of the “power” trope in child adult relations.
Yet, despite her paper and claims[1] about the industry, Rapp was hired by none other than Nintendo, in a time when it’s standard practice to at least google would-be employees.
[1] http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/alison-rapp-s-harassment-controversy
> Tom : Goode, yes, Grayson, almost certainly althoughI haven’t checked; but Cantor has a different view, or did the last time I heard from him, which was admittedly not that recent.
To be fair, Grayson has advocated for the used of child sex dolls, and although many pro consent people have voiced opposition to this on many grounds, my opinion is it’s a good idea, and legislation that I’d be happy to take advantage of.
True re Cantor, aside from his monotonous droolings that paint Kind as mentally ill with different brain patterns, lower IQs and vertically challenged, he has offered some snippets of light regarding how consumption of various types of CP, namely virtual, would be beneficial to help us to ‘stay offense free’.
Unfortunately, he has advocated more for Virtuous child porn rather than the virtual kind…..
Oldfield is a great guy, I have had many chats with him on Twitter, before I got tired of their disregard for free speech. I even sent him and his girlfriend a photo of myself on holiday (though I did have my back to the camera, in case their account was infiltrated etc). His girlfriend has been on the TV but it is not for me to say who she is. Though I’m sure he wouldn’t mind Tom knowing about her; I don’t think she is that much of a secret though, when you consider how many times she’s defended Nigel on Twitter; she wouldn’t let anyone criticise him, Even other MAPs!
Libertine
>re nigel oldfield
i would like to meet him one day, i hope he is keeping well regardless of ppl like preditor exposure constantly hounding and harassing him (SCUM BAGS).
He has a thick skin to that sort of thing.
Tom if I wanted to put my face at the side of my name on this blog how to I do that?
Well, to start with, I’m going to advise you not to do that. If you are really determined to do it, though, you’ll figure out a way!
currently trying to
Daniel, please wait until we’ve talked next week. Then by all means do what you want to do….
Ed Chambers
>Daniel, please wait until we’ve talked next week. Then by all means do what you want to do….
ive given up cos I can’t figure it out
Showing your face Daniel is very risky, and it would sadden me to see you go through the same shit as omnipolitics and other pedophiles who have shown their face did. I don’t think it is a very good idea.
I agree with Ed, Give it a week, Don’t be rash. It is not just MAPs that visit this site.
Take an angle grinder to the hard drive, that’s after ‘secure wiping’ it. ??
http://www.ejhs.org/volume11/Newman.htm
In the next activity, titled Sexuality: When does it begin? (Appendix C), participants are asked to determine when various aspects of human sexual development can first happen. For example at what age can penile erection, vaginal lubrication and clitoral erection, toilet training, and possibility of orgasm first occur?
In almost all cases, participants who had baby boys reported that penile erection could first occur from birth-3 years, as they had already witnessed it. Yet, almost all participants (regardless of the gender of their child(ren)) guessed that vaginal lubrication and clitoral erection could not occur until 4-8 or even 9-12 years of age. For possibility of orgasm, five out of 17 participants answered from birth-3 years. For the other participants, answers ranged from age 4-8 up to 12-18 years of age.
When does it begin? also provides an opportunity to discuss infant’s exploration of their own body (including their genitals), curiosity about other’s bodies and how they are learning about love and trust through touching and holding. Most participants guessed that these aspects would first occur from birth-3 and from 4-8 years old. Almost all participants express surprise when told that all of the aspects of sexual development listed can first occur from birth-3 years and some even before, in utero. According to Parrot (1994), this is consistent with the literature.
When does it begin? gives parents a sense of what is normal behavior for their growing children. For some participants, finding out that what they have been observing is normal and healthy can be a relief. One of the couples who attended had a three year old who had exhibited masturbatory behavior from infancy. Both parents expressed that they wished they had known this information sooner, so as to save them the stress of worrying about their child and also not knowing how to respond.
Once the activity if finished, participants review a comprehensive definition of sexuality (Appendix D) that includes sexual anatomy, physiology, gender, sexual orientation, fantasies, life experiences and spirituality. This information helps parents understand that sexuality education is about more than anatomy and reproduction. It is about providing a foundation for the future. And it doesn’t only happen once with “the talk.” It is a lifelong process (Haffner, 1999)
Speaking about ethics and morality, I may characterise my own ethical position as an immersive meliorist personalistic constructivism (a long and pretty name, isn’t it? 😉 ). Well, in fact it is simpler than it sounds; let me explain it to you.
Such explanation may require several posts (well, at least a pair of them). What you see here is just my initial thoughts.
The basic root of my personalistic axiology lies in my immaterialistic ontology, yet the former is not reducible to the latter. The existence of the immaterial mind (or, at least, some immaterial aspects of it), in my strong opinion, is an objectively verifiable empirical fact, already successfully verified by highly culturally controversial and harshly socially marginalised, yet in fact fully methodologically valid, consciousness research like parapsychology, transpersonal psychology or near-death studies. What such research proves is the existence of the consciousness neither reducible to nor determined by (or, at least, not fully reducible to and not completely determined by) the neuro-somatic substance and function. What such research, as itself and in itself, does not prove, is the existence of the true self and free will; yet it does make such phenomena possible in principle, while the materialistic worldview totally excludes the very possibility of non-illusory selfhood and casually active volition.
So, let’s now turn to my axiology – to be more specific, my ethics. My ethics is based on a kind of trilemma. The basic postulates of it may be formulated as such:
1) Self is intrinsically independent and is able to act in an self-willed way, yet it does not exist in a void – it is acting within the actual world where it encounters different possibilities of action, provided by the phenomena of life, ideas of culture and the society filled with other selves beyond itself. It is this interaction with the world, and selective internalisation of its parts, which transforms the self into a person.
2) It is the person that chooses not only what to accept and what to reject, what possibility among the ones that are accessible in the world to enact, but also why and how to accept, to reject and enact. So, not only the specific course of action, but the reasons to prefer it and methods to perform it, is ultimately based on a willful individual act which finds its basis, and its justification, in itself, in its own self-willed nature.
3) Every such act has consequences not only for the person itself, but for the all other selves (and thus persons) in a society, for the phenomena of life, the ideas of culture. Speaking shortly, any such act invites a persistent change in the world and thus – along with all other acts – creates the world’s future.
These basic postulates have their own implications:
1) The root of morality is the fundamental existence and yet inevitable limitation of freedom. Self-will, as such, is capable of any act; yet in practice its potence of enactment is limited by the self-wills of the others and by the world which is constantly being produced by the combined efforts of everyone. So, the problem of reconciliation of the conflicting wills with each other and with the world they are producing is unavoidable; it is the ways to resolve this problem which we call “morality”.
2) The choice of a specific moral path is, ultimately, deeply individual, based on a personal act of will which can be justified only from within and never from without; it is the choice which is based on nothing but on itself, on an intrinsic freedom of self-manifesting-as-person. There is no external conditions, rules or demands which are obligatory in such a choice, since any such preexisting external rules, demands and conditions are always conflicting with each other – and the decision about which of them to accept and which to reject is exactly what is being performed.
3) By making such choice in accordance to its inner freedom, a person do not just prefer one preexisting demands, conditions and rules to the others – it changes them, and, most importantly, it actively creating its own ones.
There are further implications of these postulates… and someone may dislike them.
1) Since what to evaluate as “good” and what as “evil” is, ultimately, a matter of the free, personal choice and preference, there can be no “objective” (let alone “absolute”) moral condemnation or approval. Any condemnations and approvals are unavoidably subjective, since all values are dependent on specific conditions, rules and demands – and they, in turn, can be justified by nothing but one’s self-willed choice. Speaking shortly, a person can be condemned only for the violation of the values that the person itself accepts as valid; any condemnation of the person who the violation of the values that it rejects signifies a moral misunderstanding.
2) Thus, the prerequisite for any remotely meaningful and effective moral interaction is some areas of similarity between the freely-chosen evaluations of the different persons. Only as long as the conflicting persons affirm values that are common to them, there is some chance that a conflict can be resolved in a moral way. The smaller such an area of the commonly shared values is, the smaller is the chance of the moral resolution. If such area is effectively absent, no moral resolution can be found. So, the most important – yet also the most painful, as thus constantly ignored or denied – realisation of the differences of the value-systems is the fact that, in a moral conflict, we cannot appeal to the values which our opponent does not share.
3) If no moral resolution is available in a conflict, two other “amoral” options are available. The first is social separation and secession – the people whose value-systems are completely mutually incompatible and thus irreconcilable should go different ways, inhabit different places and so avoid the social interaction which are unbearable to them. The second is violent, adversarial conflict, where each of the sides aim at the destruction of the other. Such conflict has to last either until only one of its sides (well, the remnants of the one of its sides, since massive losses are inevitable) is left and the other is eliminated, or until one of the sides surrenders and, then, is violently forced by the victorious one to pretend that it rejects its previous value-choices and accepts the victor’s value-system. The latter situation, however, can hardly last for long without provoking a new violent conflict.
So, what do you think about these thoughts of mine? And, as long as you write your answers, I will compose the next text – the one about crucially important connection between our moral preferences and what we believe to be objectively true intellectually; and how intellectual assessment of the evidence, and facts we construct on the basis of such assessment of the evidence, may provide an additional chance to resolve conflicts in a moral way.
An important addition: there would be a third post as well, about connection of moral values and free volition to the perceptual experience and sensual-sexual contact.
An important addition #2: first I should provide you with some additional explanation concerning my first comment, which was, I have to confess, pretty badly formulated (and not very clear overall). The relationship between wilfulness, (supression of) freedom and (rejection of) violence needs to be described more clearly.
>So, what do you think about these thoughts of mine?
I wanted to dive in and say all sorts of things. However, I think I should hold off and let others have a go. I hope a few will. Explorer, I suggest you leave your follow up for a week or so. There’s quite a lot to digest here.
Well, Tom, it is indeed better to wait for the additional explanation I promised before replying! 🙂
Thus far am in basic agreement about most of what you say. But I would like, if you have it, a full explanation, preferably sent to my email?
If that’s not possible, I’ll just wait for your next comment, and se where I go from there.
It’s better to wait for my next comment, BJ… which will be quite long and detailed, since I decided to try to explain my position as fully and clearly as comment format would allow.
So, it may take a week or so. Yet, this post of Tom is quite new, so I think I have enough time to write a proper lengthy reply!
I want to come back to my usual long-text-writing. In fact, my previous not-so-well-thought post was motivated by my desire to write something more substantial than just small replies to that I have restricted myself for long, because of the sad absence of enough free time since the New Year.
I won’t pass anything through moderation until I have read it carefully. In the case of longer posts I may have to put them aside for a while until I can spare the time.
I understand it, Tom – so, when the comment is ready, you may take all the time you need before publishing it!
fair enough, I can wait. Look forward to reading it.
Very stimulating thoughts Explorer.
I’m going to attempt a brief unpicking by suggesting countervailing arguments. Please take this in the spirit of Socratic method, and not a trite dismissal!
I was going to address all three postulates, but I’ve run out of time and space, so I’m only addressing #1. If attempted #2 and #3, Tom would probably just delete the whole post without reading it! 😀
The nub of #1 would seem to be the claim that “a person can be condemned only for the violation of the values that the person itself accepts as valid”
I have no small sympathy with this claim, in the sense that moral responsibility is bound to freedom of action. To act in accord with one’s own values is promoted as an ideal in many theories of moral development, from Jungian psychoanalysis to Buddhism. I would also point out that some of the worst things we do are despite ourselves, precisely when we fail to act in accord with our values. Ask any alcoholic about this one.
But how far can we take the refutation of collectivist or even universalist moral schemas?
In his “After Virtue” (also mentioned on this page) Alasdair MacIntyre rejects ethical universalism, taking a somewhat Humean position that “what ought to be” cannot necessarily follow from “what is”. But, significantly, he also explicitly rejects individualism as a basis for ethical reasoning, aligning it with libertarian capitalism. I suppose you could say that what he is proposing instead is a kind of eusociality, as exhibited by social insects; a collective moral intuition rooted in cultural learning.
But mindless singing with the choir has it’s own problems (eg, see Reich’s “Mass psychology of fascism”).
I evoked the philosophy of science as a parallel to MacIntyre’s thoughts. Kuhn and Lakatos are pragmatists who recognize that scientific method operates according to universal principles and moves toward a single coherent body of knowledge, but that theories inevitably break down and a theory of everything is an unrealistic goal. Instead, scientific method must be able to adapt to these paradigm shifts by reevaluating established ‘facts’ in light of new understandings.
Science has achieved a huge amount by allowing the translation of knowledge across these paradigm shifts and uniting fields of inquiry horizontally across disciplines and vertcially over time. For example, biology can be understood superveniently as chemistry and chemistry as physics. Also, Darwin’s original theory of evolution was published before the discovery of genetic inheritance, but the ‘modern synthesis’ incorporated both. Things have moved on since then, but the fundamental idea remains intact.
Paradigm shifts in science are not necessarily large scale ‘Copernican revolutions’. Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey triggered a profound shift in the theory and practice of primatology by a) giving their study animals names rather than numbers and b) attributing emotional content to their behaviour. Also, arguably, by being women.
So, objective theories of ethics facilitate and clarify moral reasoning and communities can use these to evaluate their own ethical traditions and intuitions against those of other cultures and against certain universal standards such as the UDHR. This is more important with the increasing multiculturalism we are all struggling with.
But I think MacIntyre’s claim is that this integration needs to occur from within communities, and not be imposed from outside by hegemonic moral authorities. I also mentioned elsewhere on this page that morality needs to account for the ‘messiness, emotion and ad hoc compromising’ that inevitably occurs in life, as it is actually lived. This is an ever more microcosmic view, zooming in from the universal to the particular. Ethics may be universalised and codified in grand, global declarations, and these codes do have an impact on such things as public health policy, but, as Explorer points out, every moral stance has its roots in the minutiae of every day life.
We want to act according to our understanding of the good in our own heart, not an abstract ideal. But taking this solipsism to the extreme leads to unfettered license, so I think a theory of ethics needs to find a golden mean, to account for both objective and subjective accounts. Macrososm and microcosm. Individual and society.
Politically, the supervenient moral system, the social concensus, the normative, tends to be hegemonic, authoritarian and punitive. It functions by silencing individual moral intuitions and replacing them with compulsion (eg, see Reich’s “Invasion of Compulsory Sex Morality”). In order to establish the golden mean, this hegemony needs to be challenged and resisted by the traditions and values of communities first, and then by moral intuition motivated by emotionally significant transactions between individuals at the lowest level.
So my response to your individualism is the claim that a valid theory of ethics needs to allow a hierarchy from feeling to principle.
Fantastic post, Sean. My thinking is along similar lines, therefore yours must be brilliant! 🙂
>If attempted #2 and #3, Tom would probably just delete the whole post without reading it!
You put this in just to check that I am actually reading your stuff, didn’t you? 🙂
Thanks Tom!
Still not sure if I have a handle on virtue theory, but it’s always fun to sound like I know what I’m talking abut! 😀
>Still not sure if I have a handle on virtue theory
That makes two of us! 🙂
We have to remember that virtue ethics began with Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics, which, to be absurdly simplistic, proposed eudaimonia (“happiness”) as the goal of life, and the virtues as the means of attaining eudaimonia. After this proposal, Aristotle went on to discuss the moral virtues…
In our contemporary conception, ethics and morality have to do with how we treat others, with no real consideration of ourselves, and of how we may gain some benefit from virtuous (ethical/moral) behaviour.
Meh. Run out of energy to think and write.
no yeah write more! … where does the golden mean fit in. i was kinda applying that in my analysis. re happiness, i’m also into the oxygen mask principle (u know, put ur own on first).
As I have said already, Sean, I will write a new post in about a week, so to clarify what I said.
As for now, a quick remark:
“So my response to your individualism is the claim that a valid theory of ethics needs to allow a hierarchy from feeling to principle.”
In my view, feelings are not the starting point; the starting point is conscious self and its free volition. Feelings and sensations can only start on a communal level, and principles and ideals on a societal one.
More on that later.
“Feelings and sensations can only start on a communal level,”
Not sure why this should be so. I understand that emotions have much to do with social behaviour, but why can’t we exprience fear (say) of heights (say) outside of a social context?
I think it is my bad formulation that confused you a bit… it would be better formulated as such: contact and bonding via sensual-affective experience is what allow basic communality to arise. Yet selfhood precedes experience: it is one-that-experiences.
Yet, wait for a week or so, ok? I’ll write a more detailed explanation, making it as clear as possible. It just requires time.
addendum: To act in accord with one’s own values is also fundamental to the entire project of existentialism.
I’m going to take the liberty of paraphrasing postulate #2 as: the person chooses [what] why and how to accept, to reject and enact [a course of action], based on a willful individual act. … Meaningful and effective moral interaction is [situated in] similarity between the freely-chosen evaluations of the different persons.
To address this claim, I’ll introduce the reconciliation of ‘free will’ and determinism presented in Danial Dennett’s book “Freedom Evolves”.
Dennett points out that the twin phenomena of consciousness and intentionality (‘aboutness’) have evolved to allow behaviour to adapt in an open ended way to novel conditions. He also asserts that that this adaptation cannot occur in real time, on the cusp of the moment (an idea supported by Benjamin Libet, who found that unconscious brain activity preceded conscious decision making).
What Dennett proposes is that we exercise our ‘free will’ not ‘in the moment’ but in the accumulation of ideas, habits and associations that bias our unconscious decision making. What we think dictates what we decide, and what we think is not something that occurs in the split second of enacting or suppressing an impulse.
So, I’ve introduced this idea to support the proposition that what we ‘decide’ is not a function of our independent and isolated thought processes, but of influences and habits assimilated from our entire world of experiences, cognitions and social interactions. This is less a ‘willful individual act’ than the integration of diverse influences from a much wider context.
The question of moral resolution is repeated in #3, so I’ll leave it ’til I address that postulate.
As I will tell in more detail further, our moral ideals are very strongly connected with what we believe to be objectively true.
As I told quite clearly in my initial post, my position is plainly and explicitly immaterialistic: for me, free will is rooted in the non-physical freedom of spirit rather than in sequential biophysical (as well as social and cultural) evolution. The view of an eliminative materialist Dennett is simply not a counter-argument for me, since I start from fundamentally different ontological presuppositions.
More about it later.
Finally, #3.
First, your basic postulate (every act has consequences) doesn’t seem to be much more than a reprise of the causality principle. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth stating, just that I don’t have much to say about it. 😀
(Except this: judicial responses to child pornography offenses assert that observing an image that may be decades old can retroactively harm the subject of the image. I understand and to some extent sympathize with this argument, because the existence of any intimate recording can be embarrassing and traumatic for the subject, but it also implies a degree of reverse causality. The same goes for many historic sexual abuse charges.)
But.. the corollary you state is: “If no moral resolution is available in a conflict, two other “amoral” options are available. The first is social separation and secession [..]. The second is violent, adversarial conflict [..]”.
I’m sorry to say you’re mistaken here. By far the most common outcome of moral conflict is coercion and hegemonic occupation by a dominant ideology. The moral agency of the weaker party is neutralised and it’s compelled to internalize the dominant moral code. (again see Reich’s “Invasion of Compulsory Sex Morality”).
Nothing is so fundamentally amoral as a compulsive morality. We mistake it for an authentic value system because we confuse conformity with goodness.
Sean, you said:
“I’m sorry to say you’re mistaken here. By far the most common outcome of moral conflict is coercion and hegemonic occupation by a dominant ideology. The moral agency of the weaker party is neutralised and it’s compelled to internalize the dominant moral code. (again see Reich’s “Invasion of Compulsory Sex Morality”).”
Yet I wrote quite clearly about such possibility – which, BTW, I consider to be the ugliest (and, yet, the most common…) outcome of the conflict:
“Such conflict has to last either until only one of its sides (well, the remnants of the one of its sides, since massive losses are inevitable) is left and the other is eliminated, or until one of the sides surrenders and, then, is violently forced by the victorious one to pretend that it rejects its previous value-choices and accepts the victor’s value-system. The latter situation, however, can hardly last for long without provoking a new violent conflict.”
The important moment is that I think the same about the person and the community: the latter can easily force it mores on the unconsenting and unwilling former in the most forceful way.
More about that later.
Hi Explorer,
yes I was going to amend my post when I realised you’d made that point.
Otoh, I’m not sure hegemony is always the result of violent conflict.
What about proselytizing missionaries replacing traditional value systems with biblical ones? Or how about Japan abandoning it’s artistic liberties to outlaw loli- and shotacon?
I’d still claim these represent a 3rd option.
And speaking of religion, does syncretism imply a melding of values as well as religious iconography. Examples might be religions of the pre-Christian Roman empire, or maybe Catholic / native American traditions in Mexico. Both of these have conflict in their histories, but my not be the result of coercion themselves…
Needless to say, Tom, I’m very proud of you. I always knew you could–and someday, would–have something like this published. And I’m pleased to see that “someday” is now. I appreciate that big financial expenditure you made, and I will do my best to donate what I can to help. You might want to start a Patreon account if you can, since people helping fund the work and bills of authors they admire so they can keep writing rather than being forced to do something else for a living is quite common.
>I will do my best to donate what I can to help. You might want to start a Patreon account if you can
Many thanks for the thought, Dissy. The Donate button is ready when you are! 🙂 I will certainly look into Patreon but unfortunately I am not quite ready for that and cannot at the moment say whether I will feel that is the way to go.
Good article about free speech, Thousands marching but not much coverage on the telly!
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-day-for-freedom-was-not-a-far-right-rally/21377#.WvN9VC-ZPVo
An interesting blog post from Jerry Barnett (“Sex and Censorship” blog):
http://sexandcensorship.org/2018/05/incel-sexual-frustration-and-male-violence/
What do you think about it?
spot on
I mentioned a group that i go to (which do a radio show) and i asked them if i can discuss why our society discriminates against paedophiles and well ive just got a response back telling me that i can’t do because it would be inappropriate which doesn’t surprise me.
Hi Daniel,
following Tom’s publication, I was thinking about my own writing and the problems associated with participating in a public conversation as a self disclosed paedophile.
Tom has the ‘advantage’ of having his sexual orientation already in the public domain, which solves issues that I (for example) encounter in seeking to publish anonymously. All the same, I should note his use of a nom de plume in his Michael Jackson book.
That aside, what’s striking is that Tom’s article has a very narrow and specific scope: the flaws in arguments already published, by authors with a (perhaps undeserved?) reputation for scholarship.
This critical engagement with an existing academic publication, along with the quality of Tom’s refutation of its arguments, gives the journal a good reason to publish.
The important point is that Tom has been able to say some radical things, in a manner that defies the simplistic dismissal that typically greets the bare exposition of a child loving agenda.
In the context of your radio show, perhaps you could find an instance where society’s attitude to some specific aspect of paedophilia is so problematic that it has been questioned widely, not just by paedophiles.
Some examples might be the extrajudicial punishment and violation of the natural rights of convicted sex offenders, or what about the exodus of males from teaching, especially in primary schools.
Both of these are valid issues worthy of public discussion. Nevertheless, a careful examination of either would allow a critique of the irrationality and excess that infects society’s understanding of paedophilia and its responses to child sexual abuse.
Finally though, I would repeat the warning that publicly identifying as minor attracted or questioning the dogma around paedophilia can invite a devastating and vicious response, so be very cautious and choose your battles!
It’s far better to speak as a thoughtful skeptic than a paedophile advocate.
Basically, I agree with this. Just one point:
>Tom has the ‘advantage’ of having his sexual orientation already in the public domain, which solves issues that I (for example) encounter in seeking to publish anonymously. All the same, I should note his use of a nom de plume in his Michael Jackson book.
My use of the name “Carl Toms” for the Jackson book was a commercial decision not a security one. I wanted key newspapers at least to send it out to reviewers rather than just tossing it aside based on my name.
What I had not reckoned with, though, was pre-publication publicity and the brief but fatal appearance of the book in searchable form on Google Books three months ahead of publication. This meant angry Jackson fans were able (from information inside the book) to discover my real name and mount a fierce campaign against the publisher. Taking fright, the publisher dropped the title and I had no choice but to distribute the book through my own new company, Dangerous Books Ltd.
Thanks for th clarification Tom. I thought that was the gist of it, but decided it was still on topic.
Sean one way or another i am already in the public domain cos of corruption on my families part and the locals who turned a blind eye not to mention the council that i used to live under which means wer ever i go i am never going to fit into society anyway and i have mentioned b4 that heretic toc is the best social outlet i have tbh.
>i have mentioned b4 that heretic toc is the best social outlet i have
You certainly get us thinking, with some lively questions!
I guess these kind of things happen wen one has had a flamboyant life style some of which wer achieved through my own efforts others motivated via hate
Tom/Everyone
As you and other readers may have noticed that the square at the side of my name has changed so don’t worry ppl still the same person just come back from the repair shop with my laptop and the machine has had its memory erased so just to let u all know.
Some MAPs would probably throw their lap-tops in the canal when broken, before taking them to the repair shop. I read somewhere they have a duty to report anything illegal that they may come across.
>Some MAPs would probably throw their lap-tops in the canal when broken
Not environmentally sound. They should destroy any chips and recycle the rest.
It’s good that you have this place Daniel. I think with you as a contributor here the interest is two way.
In response to Explorer and bjmuirhead and extending my comments below on virtue theory …
I too was influenced by MacIntyre’s ideas on virtue ethics. Like him, I’m interested in a less positivist, more embedded epistemology in moral thinking. I was particularly encouraged by his being influenced by Kuhn and Lakatos.
Garner’s “Beyond Morality” looks fascinating! I’d hazard to guess that as MacIntyre is to Kuhn, Garner may be to the anarchism of Paul Feyerabend.
I’m scientist, but I rate Feyerabend. I’m a pragmatist and a ‘bottom up’ thinker, automatically skeptical of theories of everything. However, I have a massive respect for the power of science as a formalism and a tool for answering questions about the world.
Similarly, consequentialist and deontological ethics clarify the process of inquiry into questions of right and wrong. They also allow a degree of universalism that, like science, is fundamental to modern life. Despite the challenges of modernity, I’m not nostalgic for ancient times, and I think concepts like ‘human rights’ (for example) are valuable, not least for MAPs.
The trick in both science and ethics is to make room for accounts that preserve an understanding of the messiness, emotion and ad hoc compromising that constitute our thinking about life as we actually live it.
My interest is not so much what conduct should be allowed as in how ethical constraints can be articulated, accepted and policed in a manner that acknowledges that inevitable messiness, emotion and ad hoc compromising.
…. For example, an ‘articulation, acceptance and policing’ of an ethical injunction to “protect children” may be an arguable good.
But if it results in putting children on a sex offender registry, it may be condemned as a failure to account for the ‘messiness, emotion and ad hoc compromising’ of life.
It’s a challenge to the absolutism and categorical overdetermination of moral judgments, not on the basis of the principles that underlie them, but against the manner in which they are made.
Something like that…
I very much agree with your last two paras, Sean.
All readers
Is it common or uncommon for paedpohiles to naturally have child like qualities cos i find myself to enjoy wholesome like going to sweets shops and hugging teddies ect like children do and am wondering if many other paedophiles feel the same way.
If I wasn’t on a diet I would be eating lots of sweets. I do have a lot of child like qualities too, imo, good and bad. For now, at least, I don’t have a teddy 😉
Ed Chambers
>If I wasn’t on a diet I would be eating lots of sweets. I do have a lot of child like qualities too, imo, good and bad. For now, at least, I don’t have a teddy ??
i have a theory that the reason paedpohiles can relate to children so well is cos they have natural child like qualities that most adults don’t have and Tom has mentioned in the past that paedophiles brains have both a nurturing and sexual responses and curious to know if there is any evidence to show why paedophiles can relate to children and does it have anything to do with being childlike.
I have found this like that mentions what a paedophile is suppose to be like if you want a read https://www.thoughtco.com/profile-of-pedophile-and-common-characteristics-973203
Daniel, while I agree that article has some things correct, some things on there are just plain… retarded. You could of at least put a trigger warning before posting that, because that sure as hell gave me an aneurysm 😀
Stockholm syndrome being usual, or common since this author seems to be good with their bias, not to mention inaccurate, use of semantics & wording is one thing that is retarded. (Sexual situations without use of force or other objective threats are difficult to conclude as Stockholm syndrome.)
Another is again from the biased, not to mention inaccurate use of semantics & wording, like I mean really…
Not to mention the contradictory text laying inside that shit invested article. How the hell can you state that sexual predators are mostly people well known to he child, when you state that god forsaken registry is there to protect kids & parent’s distorted vision of sex?
I find it funny how they fit the stereotype of all people against pedophilia, a melodramatic individual who makes the pedophile seem sort of like an evil boss with sociopathic tendencies? Not to bring up the fact that they extremely exaggerate everything negative about sex and kids, and distort the image of their bullshit agenda by claiming ‘it’s protecting them?’
The stereotype they fit for pedophiles seems so adjacent to being nonsensical? It honestly makes no sense, but it does bring a comical view of how these numbnuts operate 😀
Just a warning if anyone comes across to read the article, it is offensive.
Purpledragon85 i apologies if wat ive posted is offensive but was the only thing i found linking my theory to Paedophiles having childlike qualties i admit that my search was lazy and i will try to make more of an effort in future
I can relate to that!
🙂
sean
>I can relate to that!
can u relate to teddies of sweeties?
Your “Profile of a Pedophile and Common Characteristics” page was pretty entertaining, btw. a richly revealing portrait of the paranoid imagination at work! 🙂
On a more serious note, such paedophile spotting checklists commonly include a clinically defined trait termed “emotional congruence” [with children].
I think this is fair enough. I have this emotional congruence, and I’ve been both criticised and (more often) praised for it.
It means I empathise very powerfully with children. When they’re upset, I really feel it, and I find it effortless to get wrapped up with them in imaginative play.
Sometimes I don’t understand the ‘adult’ perspective, and this is the avenue of criticism. In particular, sometimes I am just gobsmacked by the casual cruelty that adults(including parents) can ingorantly and unconsciously inflict on their kids.
Of course, if I point it out I get a flea in my ear, along th lines of “you can’t understand unless you are a parent!”. My response is YOU can’t understand unless you are a child. I’m usually right in these arguments. Kids are deeply scarred by this stuff, and I always try to help them if possible.
So yeah, emotional congruence.. I don’ have much of a sweet tooth and I don’t have any teddies, but I have hundreds of children’s books, which I love to read.
🙂
Sean i like watching things like Kenan and kel tracey beaker ect
Tracy Beaker’s a babe….when the series first started that is…
Ed Chambers
Tracy Beaker’s a babe….when the series first started that is…
I like jojo siwa but adele was nice in tracy beaker.
(I hope im not saying anything that our isp don’t like here)
> tracey beaker
Tracey Beaker!!
I didn’t know there was a tv adaptation!
Jacqueline Wilson is one of my all time favourite writer’s. She is a total genius and well worth a read. Her work is often quite gritty and sad. It can be a little sentimental but is always totally unaffected. The fact she’s read by so many girls gives me hope for the future. Most (all?) of her protagonists are girls and most boys would not be seen dead with one of her books, which is a real shame.
Her novel “Love Lessons” could even be considered on topic for this blog.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Lessons_(novel)
Amos Yee is going viral again after his YouTube account was shut down.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44039616
Yo, Amos! Go, man, go! This young guy is proving irrepressible. Take him down he just bounces back up. Great!
Tom
>go Amos
Well sed tom mate
I admire Amos for his balls and for addressing issues to do with freedom of speech. I also think that it’s commendable of him to speak up for child lovers as he has done, despite him not being a paedo, although arguably this has made it ever so slightly easier for him to do this. I just hope he has done all this for the right reasons. Maybe I should just give him the benefit of the doubt…..
Surprised the BBC were contacting Youtube on Yee’s behalf!
As if the BBC is somehow different lol.
Speaking about ethics, another good work which is highly recommended to read whether you agree with it or not is Richard Garner’s “Beyond Morality”. This philosopher is essentially an amoralist (or “error theorist”, as he may describe himself). However, his positions are not the ones that one would expect – no cheap anything-goes nihilism; rather, he tries to understand what human beings should do, ethically, if they agree with his insistence that is no objective (let alone absolute) “good” and “evil”.
Once almost the whole book (except a single chapter) was freely available as a PDF (apparently generously provided by Garner himself), but I cannot find it in a freely downloadable format any longer. Yet I have the-full-book-minus-one-chapter as a PDF myself, since I have downloaded it many years ago.
Tom, if you wish, I can send it to you via e-mail…
>Tom, if you wish, I can send it to you via e-mail…
Thanks, please do. However, if I find him interesting I might well end up buying the whole book just for the other chapter!
Ok, Tom, I’ll do it in a few hours!
I would like a copy of that myself, if ’tis possible.
I was about to contact Amos Yee but i have discovered that his youtube channel has been shut down (free speech my FUCKIN ASS) and was wondering if any 1 had any other form of communication for him.
https://www.patreon.com/amosyee
amosyee@gmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/amosyeebanana/
http://amosyeebanana.com/
Your forgot his new Twitter page:
https://twitter.com/TheAmosYee
Coincidence or not, Antipedophobe Aktion (AA) suddenly resurfaced exactly while Amos is being gagged – he has just opened his videos for everyone once again:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqpGPc4NSxMIJRPP9fmXm1Q/videos?disable_polymer=1
Be sure to watch his stuff until he hides it from the public once again (which he is very likely to do, unfortunately), if you haven’t done it before.
P.S. Is there a way to mirror, save etc. AA’s videos while they are publicly available? Or there are some technical difficulties and / or legal problems with doing so?
Thanks for this! I will aim to save them all….as for mirroring them, I guess we could always use a file share site…
The best active pro-MAP YouTube channel for now is probably the Youth Liberation. I (and others) have already mentioned it on Tom’s blog, but it won’t harm to remind everyone about its existence once more:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCPYKfzWYPjqFl1P-lIQ_-w
This channel is out there for more than two years already… Hope it won’t be blocked like so many others (One Life and Shaun TV have been blocked recently, along with Amos Yee – is this an “anti-MAP purge” of a kind?).
Antipedophobe Aktion have a VK account: https://vk.com/id423938104 which has a video section: https://vk.com/videos423938104
My experience is that VK is less censorious than FB or G+; the latter censored me for nude art, the former never made any problem about it.
>My experience is that VK is less censorious
Heretic TOC has to be censorious though, so readers are reminded not to send links to any material of questionable legality.
Tom can you be more specific re questionable legality and i hope u dont think i have posted anything bad
> i hope u dont think i have posted anything bad
No, I don’t. As for questionable legality, just imagine anything the police or a probation officer might disapprove of and you won’t go far wrong!
Lol i bet police and probation dont like blog
>i bet police and probation dont like blog
Er, true. I hadn’t thought of that! 🙂
Now they’re going after football coaches for racial abuse between 1979 and 1993. Well, I just thought it was the sexual stuff that was subject to trawling for scandal. I am a bit of a jag nut and these old cars can soak up cash, but I managed to send a reasonable amount. Your work IS important, and you have the skills so keep up the good work Tom.
>I managed to send a reasonable amount
Great stuff! Huge thanks, Libertine!
No problem.
Tom i am now donating to dangerous book liaisons ltd im afraid i can send a lot but i have found a space for a little bit of cash so i hope something good comes out of it.
ps i have the right cause don’t i? just want to make sure.
>i have the right cause don’t i? just want to make sure.
Yes, you do, Daniel, and thanks enormously for you donation. As I said earlier, my PayPal account was set up with the name Dangerous Books Ltd, but that is not the cause your donation will be going to. It will instead help me pay off the big Springer fee, and when that has been achieved I trust future donations will help keep me afloat so I can keep up with my various pro-Kind writing projects.
I suggest that you start accepting donations with cryptocurrencies as well.
Their major benefit is that no one can suspend your account.
Paypal is well known to suspend accounts of those who engage in Pro-MAP activism.
Thanks for the warning. I’ll have to mug up on crypto.
Good idea, for sure check this out :
https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/wallets/
I would recommend https://electrum.org/#home as an online wallet for ease of use.
Or use one of these for cold storage : https://www.ledgerwallet.com/
>check this out
Have just started. Thanks for info.
Tom
Thank you for letting me read PIEs re form one question i do have (i couldn’t find anything) and that is what PIEs policy on pregnancy was/yours and did the partie/organisation have an aoc on it, say hypothetically in the right society a would children be allowed to choose weather or not they want a child of their own ect
The age of consent policy was written before I had any policy input at PIE. PIE decided not to have a minimum AOC, feeling the existing criminal law was sufficient where there was any evidence, or reasonable presumption, that a child had not consented.
Most people, and certainly most courts, would certainly presume, for instance, that infants would not be capable of communicating consent before they have learned to talk.
Later on, when I wrote Paedophilia: The Radical Case, I suggested an AOC of 12 for penetrative sex; for others acts I recommended PIE’s proposals.
Regarding pregnancy, PIE emphasised good sex education and access to birth control. It was not felt extra teens or pre-teen pregnancy would result from the proposals. Remember that the Netherlands had the lowest teen pregnancy rate in Europe in the 1990s when the AOC was 12. They also had good sex education.
Tom
>Remember that the Netherlands had the lowest teen pregnancy rate in Europe in the 1990s when the AOC was 12. They also had good sex education.
Yes that is fine but what about if a child wanted to have a child, of their own (wanted to give birth) would there be some kind of arrangement in order to decide the best course of action.
ps im not say all children want to have kids just saying that its a possibility some might.
>what about if a child wanted to have a child
Might have worked for hunter-gatherers (where the whole community is often involved in child care through “alloparenting”, as mentioned in another post here by Sean) but not a good idea in the modern world.
Yes, in today’s world more alloparenting would be helpful, but more pregnant “children” would not, either for themselves in the long run or for society.
> Yes, in today’s world more alloparenting would be helpful, but more pregnant “children” would not, either for themselves in the long run or for society.
Agreed, however, as you know better than I this does not mean ‘children’ should be prevented from enjoying the benefits of sexual relationships and a pro sexual society.
>this does not mean ‘children’ should be prevented from enjoying the benefits of sexual relationships and a pro sexual society.
Quite so.
Regarding pregnancy, PIE emphasised good sex education and access to birth control. It was not felt extra teens or pre-teen pregnancy would result from the proposals.
Why would pedophiles take a de-facto negative view of sex, in which children are viewed as bugs to be ironed out of the process, rather than features?
Fewer children would not only be bad for society, in the long term, it’s also obviously bad for everyone loving children, including pedophiles.
> Why would pedophiles take a de-facto negative view of sex
I can’t see how the PIE quote to which you refer is sex negative Nada. I think there is considerable distance between sex positive society / sexual liberation for children and the wisdom of pregnancy at a relatively young age. I think that pregnancy is best at a minimum age of 18+, penetrative sex 12+, hence the need for good sex education and birth control.
Well done Tom on your article i have recently confessed my views to a group that i go to and i haven’t heard a reply from them and probably won’t i wish i could find reasonable ppl to have these kind of conversations with outside of the movement i guess u will have to give us guys some tips how to sell ourselves and also the right kind of ppl to do that with and also how to do it without going straight to the end result and it all going wrong which is something i have found in the past and just got myself frustrated and wound up with them.
> how to do it without going straight to the end result and it all going wrong which is something i have found in the past
Getting it right is extremely difficult when the topic is as explosive as this one. I wouldn’t advise anyone to try unless they are very confident communicators, and preferably without too much to lose.
Tom
>being a good communicator
how long did it take you to master it and when you started this quest from the beginning did you ever get it wrong and how bad was it?
LOL! I’m still learning, Daniel. I wouldn’t say I’ve mastered it. The spoken word is the hardest, in my view. I’m not as utterly crap at it as I used to be, so practice helps, but some lucky folks are gifted in this way – the “gift of the gab” as they say in Ireland. Comedians are probably the best: some really smart dudes in that tribe.
Tom
>I’m not as utterly crap at it as I used to be, so practice helps, but some lucky folks are gifted in this way – the “gift of the gab” as they say in Ireland. Comedians are probably the best: some really smart dudes in that tribe.
Don’t know if you have ever seen this but where you ever a politician and do you find any of the learned skills is documentary have ever helped you out?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lq7LHoAyNk
I’ve just had a look at the first few minutes of this fascinating doc on body language. The shoving contest between Middle Eastern former political leaders Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat is amazing!
But to answer your question, no I have never been a politician, although in the short time I was a member of the Labour Party I was invited to stand for election in local politics.
I have never studied body language but I have been aware that it is important for how you come across on TV, or in any form of public speaking.
> i have recently confessed my views to a group that i go to and i haven’t heard a reply from them and probably won’t i wish i could find reasonable ppl to have these kind of conversations with outside of the movement
You really need to tread a little more carefully Daniel. It needs to be common knowledge to all that on topic discussions are a blind spot in normally reasonable people’s rational thought processes. They have been programmed to believe ‘children’ can’t give informed consent and anyone who has a sexual interest in children is a murdering rapist. Probably best to stop digging any deeper and for now, at least, stay within safe circles.
Ed chambers
>You really need to tread a little more carefully Daniel. It needs to be common knowledge to all that on topic discussions are a blind spot in normally reasonable people’s rational thought processes. They have been programmed to believe ‘children’ can’t give informed consent and anyone who has a sexual interest in children is a murdering rapist. Probably best to stop digging any deeper and for now, at least, stay within safe circles.
What helped you make the decision to go on camera and how much hostility did you face afterwards.
It’s a long story Daniel, and various parts of it I now omit for the time being because people don’t believe me. This will change in time.
I was always ashamed of how I felt, I thought I was wrong / ill, until recently that is. I have reached out for help a number of times, firstly in my mid twenties. That was a disaster. The rest is history.
I wanted people to have what I had not had, proper help and support, so I decided to appear in these documentaries. It was folly. I have never found this from anyone. This includes the NHS, StopItNow, StopSo, and the Prevention Projekt Dunkelfeld in Germany. These organisations will not allow a paeophile to talk of what they want, you will be forced to see yourself as a problem society has to regrettably, reluctantly deal with, regardless of the many positives and truths to be had from inter generational relationships.
Stay away from these organisations. They will only make things worse for paedos who are unfortunate enough to confide in them.
It’s been a long road to where I am now. I am no longer ashamed. I still get a lot of grief from people, everyday, for who I am. But I am not afraid, and I will continue to speak against the misguided societal outlook that denegrates and demonises our demographic so.
For me its the way ppl look at me, wer i used to live ppl would c me but try to ignore me and on occasions random strangers would even attack me ie one time i was walking to the shop and these neighbors i used to live next to beebed their horn at me and drove passed and about 7 days later i was walking home from the shop and a young man about 20ish started asking me For money and i told him i didn’t have any and he started kicking off and giving me a hard time i carried on walking home and that was it and then less than a week later the same neighbors drove passed me in their car again and they didn’t live round the corner and i never saw them around For any other reason apart from ever someone wanted to give me a hard time
I experience similar kind of things Daniel. Don’t let it grind you down, no matter what people do to you. Keep smiling and keep your chin up. The truth about child love and paedophilia will no doubt be unveiled in time. Gotta keep chipping away at it.
Ed Chambers
>I experience similar kind of things Daniel. Don’t let it grind you down, no matter what people do to you. Keep smiling and keep your chin up. The truth about child love and paedophilia will no doubt be unveiled in time. Gotta keep chipping away at it.
Thanx Ed i have to admit that since being a part of this blog i have felt a lot better about things in general i still have downers about life but being here does help and my doctor has given me some medication which is also starting to help a bit as well re paedophillia being unveiled in time well i dont know if i will be able to look everyday ppl in society the same again tbh.
Also, on incest, the general pattern in the animal kingdom seems to be to breed with relatives, but not close relatives. Work supporting this is mostly focused on the major histocompatibility complex (MHC), a region of high variability on the genome that plays a role in the immune system.
the MHC is phenotypically expressed as tissue type (in us, the human leucocyte antigen or HLA). These systems play a crucial role in kin recogntion, and explain the maternal licking of infant anogenital regions by most mammalian mothers. For details, look for the famous t-shirt sniffing experiments.
Despite these mechanisms (which mainly seem to impact on maternal care) most non-primate mammals don’t instinctively avoid individual incestual matings, but instinctive social patterns tend to favour exogamy.
I suspect that human behaviour, being very flexible, has replaced innate mechanisms (eg, highly stereotyped social instincts) with a system of learned social preferences, by which I mean something more like the Westermarck effect.
I also suspect that alloparenting was common in early human evolution and that the MHC based kin recognition receded in importance, to be replaced by this learned familiarity based system.
I suspect that the complex of all of these factors discouraging incest, both learned and ‘pheromonal’ is experienced psychologically as a kind of ‘disgust’ at the idea of sex with ‘immediate’, but including unrelated, family,
Disgust is closely related to moral judgment an that, I believe, is the origin of the incest taboo.
Interestingly, anogenital licking of infant rats has been shown to be necessary to stimulate diaphragmic breathing (a fundamentally erotic response). It’s possible that the unusually high baseline anxiety exhibited by humans is not existential, as usually suggested, but is a consequence of a persistent thoracic breathing pattern.
So, maybe the tradition of masturbating infants and children wasn’t just a way to relax them, but was actually teaching them to breathe correctly.
>I also suspect that alloparenting was common in early human evolution
Yes, there is good reason to think so. Research in recent years has assembled a body of carefully quantified data on alloparenting (shared child care) in modern hunter-gatherer populations, along with lifestyle/environment analysis that distinguishes those populations with higher levels of alloparenting from those with lower, and what appears to be driving the differences between the two in terms of local environments. This info was brought together in a Hunter-Gatherer Childhoods, by Hewlett & Lamb.
Briefly, there are cultures in which they take seriously the idea that “it takes a village”, or an entire small nomad community, to raise a child, not just the mother or the two biological parents. These carers may include men and older children.
>I suspect that the complex of all of these factors discouraging incest, both learned and ‘pheromonal’ is experienced psychologically as a kind of ‘disgust’ at the idea of sex with ‘immediate’, but including unrelated, family
Arthur Wolf ended his decades-long investigations with a fantastically clear, simple and to my mind very persuasive theory, set out in his final book. This was the subject of my review, the one mentioned in the blog.
There are lots of interesting points in this post of yours, Sean. I may come back with a second response, probably with some questions.
Tom, my father was a medical practitioner in a series of heavy-industry areas from the 30s to the 60s. Two-up, two-down terraced houses were commonplace. Upstairs, the parents shared one room, the other room was shared by all of the children. Often, 6, 7, or 8 sleeping in one large bed. Or, one bed for the boys and one for the girls.
He died without making notes on birth-rates, or possible consanguinities, but serious remarks made to me before he passed away from overwork, revealed that there were very few problems stemming from these large sleeping ‘bundles’ —even though he knew for sure that consanguine events did sometimes take place.
For a start, pregnancies were extremely rare and the kids seemed to mostly grow up straight and healthy, though there was a higher attrition-rate from things like serious infections while they were still very young.
This latter factor was not surprising, when you realize that some of those houses still had no running water in them, even after World War 2.
Perhaps other doctors did collect their notes and publish them? A field to explore?
Finally, if I seem to denigrate those people, I do NOT. I asked my father why he went back to the Black Country to practice after serving in the war-time navy. He said that it was because he loved the people. Which was good enough for me…
M T-W.
> Often, 6, 7, or 8 sleeping in one large bed. Or, one bed for the boys and one for the girls.
Just like the hard-up Catholic family my dad came from, with 10 kids. My mum was from a small family: six kids!
This is a wonderful insight, thanks. My father, RIP, was born in 1930 and had 11 brothers and sisters. He rarely, if ever, spoke of his childhood, as he was from Sheffield and as you know things were tough enough there without the bombing raids etc. Tough people from tough times.
Dear Ed,
Yes, they mostly came through their hardships without even seeing them as such? Strong, resilient people, who don’t see themselves as victims?
M T-W.
> Yes, they mostly came through their hardships without even seeing them as such? Strong, resilient people, who don’t see themselves as victims?
Hi Mike, as you say, yes. My father certainly didn’t see himself as a victim. I think the main reason why he didn’t talk about it much was because he’d put it all behind him, didn’t dwell on it. It’s probably also fair to say in light of the luxuries we enjoy in today’s society, that he was perhaps a little too tough and resilient, which was very frustrating for me as a child who could’ve done with a little more open communication and affection…..but I don’t dwell on it….lol…
Ed, it is a life-long regret of mine that I only really knew my father for a couple of years before he died. My mother and he were divorced when I was young and there was a lot of bitterness – which I later found out was caused entirely by my mother. So I missed out on many years of knowing a sweet, wise old man, who ended up dying far too young…
What am I complaining about? The sun rises in the morning and I am lucky to have him to remember!
M T-W.
I don’t think I ever got to know my old man. He was too wrapped up in his own regrets and misgivings about his two marriages. He wasn’t a bad man, but he was difficult, but this is largely to do with the mistakes he’d made in his life, that he pretty much never admitted to. It’s a shame, but it is the way it is.
thanks Tom!
Aside from the clear advantage of having your argument articulated with such precision in the public domain, you have really condensed and supported a lot of my own thinking.
You may have noticed some of my own previous comments on “virtue theory”, and you probably disregarded them as seemingly aligned with those of Scruton and Malón. That has never been the case!
My interest has been in the de facto moral position of minor attracted people seeking to live within the law and in harmony with communities they care about, but with whom they disagree on how they may express their paedophilia.
I’ve never considered that tbe whole story, but I’ve been unsure how to progress in a rigorous way. Your flipping of the ideal wrt sexual conduct and human flourishing perfectly expresses the gambit I’ve struggled to implement, so thankyou!
I’m working on my own writing project that I also hope to publish. Your work has significantly reduced the groundwork I need to cover, as it precisely expresses what in my work have been largely unresolved and tangential issues.
My focus is not on child-adult sex, but on the welfare and self concept of minor attracted people. An issue I’ve struggled with, in my personal life and in tbeory, is the contrast between my well founded intuition and the dominant consensus. I understand the problem with virtue theory, being its inevitable reduction to moral relativism, but I note, empirically, that I don’t break laws prohibiting child-adult sex and I don’t betray the trust of friends who let me form attachments with their children.
I know that I’m not motivated (primarily) by fear of punishment, and that I feel good about being transparent in my intentions and conduct, so my deployment of virtue theory is more explanatory than conceptual. I don’t accept that friendly sex play with kids would harm them or conflict with my duty to them, but I don’t engage in it. Why? Because of the wider social context. Importantly, I consider this to be a *moral* choice.
I don’t think this idea is incompatible with your own presentation, since a broad shift toward a positive sexual ideal would obviate the entire motivation for my argument.
I’d be extremely interested in your own view on my characterization and conclusions.
Thanks again for the article. Excellent work!
>I’m working on my own writing project that I also hope to publish. Your work has significantly reduced the groundwork I need to cover
Very pleased to hear this. I hope any reviewers will be as constructive as mine were – they helped me correct a number of mistakes and infelicities. One of them alerted me to an important angle I had missed, leading to my composition of three extra paragraphs.
>I’d be extremely interested in your own view on my characterization and conclusions
Unsurprisingly, I am delighted by the characterisation, and also like the sound of the way you will be taking the issues forward. Good luck!
I don’t want to be a pain in the arse, but have you read MacIntyre?
More than worth a read.
https://www.bookdepository.com/After-Virtue-Alasdair-MacIntyre/9781780936253
I see the blurb says this:
>More than thirty years after its original publication, After Virtue remains a work that is impossible to ignore for anyone interested in our understanding of ethics and morality today.
It seems the writers to whose ethical ideas I was primarily responding, Malon and Scruton, did not find MacIntyre’s book impossible to ignore. They have totally ignored it. In their extensive references they do not cite this book at all. So you might like to have a go at persuading me they were missing something important. In particular, do you think my paper could have been better if I had been influenced by MacIntyre? In what way?
If this sounds a bit sceptical, I should admit that MacIntyre is a big name and that his subject area is right on target.
Maybe this theme could account for some of your enthusiasm:
>MacIntyre’s thought is revolutionary as it articulates a politics of self-defence for local communities that aspire to protect their practices and sustain their way of life from corrosive effects of the capitalist economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre#After_Virtue_(1981)
I very much like the sound of this, I must say:
>MacIntyre is concerned with reclaiming various forms of moral rationality and argumentation that claim neither ultimate finality nor incorrigible certainty (the mistaken project of the Enlightenment), but nevertheless do not simply bottom out into relativistic or emotivist denials of any moral rationality whatsoever..
It seems the writers to whose ethical ideas I was primarily responding, Malon and Scruton, did not find MacIntyre’s book impossible to ignore.
Yes, this is true. And in answer to your comment, I will quote a little bit from Kai Nielsen, another very good philosopher. Commenting on the way MacIntyre approaches moral philosophy, Nielsen says that MacIntyre has a way of viewing things, widely shared outside of moral philosophy but not shared by many moral philosophers.” Essentially this is the view, among other things, that we have to learn from history and other cultures the variety of conceptual schemes, moral practices and beliefs. Nielsen’s article is available here:
https://phil.ucalgary.ca/manageprofile/sites/phil.ucalgary.ca.manageprofile/files/unitis/publications/1-6708443/Alasdair_MacIntyre_and_After_Virtue.pdf
This says a lot about why Malon would ignore MacIntyre: he is not discussed in psychological circles, and he stands outside the work of the majority of moral philosophers, although they do take his ideas with seriousness.
Scruton, on the other hand, is just a boring uptight Ultra Right Catholic (an urc!) with a stick up his arse and an inability to seriously consider ideas that are too far out of his own moral bailiwick. If I sound dismissive of him, consider the fact that after purchasing his book on sexual desire, I threw it in the bin (literally) not even half read. The errors of logic and conceptualisation were more than I could accept. Now, to be serious again…
So you might like to have a go at persuading me they were missing something important. In particular, do you think my paper could have been better if I had been influenced by MacIntyre? In what way?
I cannot say whether your paper would be better or worse; all I can say is that it would have been a different paper. Moreover, I saw no reason to suggest that you take on a different approach. Your stalking horses were efficiently dealt with, in my opinion, and your paper already was submitted.
But: I do feel, and I think I have said it once or twice, that I don’t think you, or anyone else, attempting to challenge the negative views about paedophilia, can afford to take the moral issues on without challenging them in their entirety.
The third edition of After Virtue is available here:
https://ia601607.us.archive.org/35/items/4.Macintyre/4.%2BMacintyre.pdf
I do think anyone dealing with virtue ethics, necessarily must read MacIntyre. He truly is a master in this area of ethical and moral thought, well beyond Scruton, and Malon, the latter not even being well read in moral theory, as far as I can tell from his work and his bibliographies. Ok, I am being a bitch: forgive me Agustin!
Moreover, it was MacIntyre who discussed virtues as morally important, bringing the area of virtue ethics back into repute as a viable stance. Is this not reason enough to read him?
>I don’t think you, or anyone else, attempting to challenge the negative views about paedophilia, can afford to take the moral issues on without challenging them in their entirety.
This sounds as though it ought to be right, but what do you mean by ” in their entirety”? What have I been missing?
I might well make the effort to prioritise MacIntyre, (causing me to neglect at least one other possibly brilliant book out there that I will not, as a result, have time for!) if you can summarise why I should.
In pressing the point, I am not trying to make an excuse for being lazy nor am I trying to be awkward. It’s just that I slightly suspect I am going to agree with most of what MacIntyre says, in which case what will I learn? For instance, it is said he thinks this:
>Thus even though there is no definitive way for one tradition in moral philosophy to vanquish and exclude the possibility of another, nevertheless opposing views can call one another into question by various means including issues of internal coherence, imaginative reconstruction of dilemmas, epistemic crisis, and fruitfulness.
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_MacIntyre ]
Yes, I am thinking, sounds good stuff. So, to reiterate, what have I been missing?
Essentially, the book is an historical enquiry, aimed at understanding contemporary morality.
Whether or not you regard this type of approach worth the effort to read, and whether or not you should prioritize it is not something I can comment on.
It would deepen and broaden you knowledge of the tradition of virtue ethics. I think this is worthwhile.
>It would deepen and broaden you knowledge of the tradition of virtue ethics. I think this is worthwhile.
I can believe your first sentence, and thanks for saying so. But I am not yet persuaded of the second. A substantial part of my article, after all, was occupied with pointing out major weaknesses in virtue ethics, especially its culture-bound, relativistic nature. I see nothing in the summaries of MacIntyre’s work that suggests I need to reconsider this view.
It looks as though I might end up admiring MacIntyre but still distrusting virtue ethics. But I guess that depends upon the constraints it is placed under. And MacIntyre would be discussing those constraints. Umm. So, yes, maybe. You know, I think I am beginning to persuade myself here!
Having just finished my paper, though, I will probably leave virtue ethics on the back burner for a while. If I return to this meta-philosophical stuff, however, as I surely will eventually, I will bear MacIntyre in mind. So, thanks again.
As you know, I am an immoralist, or an amoralist, so there is much in MacIntyre that I do not agree with, but there also is much that is worth consideration—if you go back in that direction.
Thank you for allowing us to have it for free. At the moment I’m unemployed, tho. I will remember you when I have some cash flow. Then, I’ll donate. Hopefully, you will understand.
Sure, Yure, I totally understand. No problem. Good luck with getting a job and thanks for writing!
Forgive me this indiscretion, but I’m proud to donate Tom. If I can give more in the future, I will do.
> Heretics who are into philosophy might enjoy what I hope is a successful demolition job on his enthusiasm for denouncing “perversion” and “obscenity”.
Look forward to reading your paper, particularly bearing this ^ in mind.
As for John Woodcock, he obviously wasn’t aware of the finely nuanced meaning of the word ‘Karma’.
Very heartening to hear of the successful smuggling operation in the US. Surprised the other inmates were happy to help someone on the sex offender wing, but what do I know.
>…but I’m proud to donate Tom.
Many thanks, Ed, for your very generous contribution, which has been safely received. Well done in being the first to start the ball rolling!
>As for John Woodcock, he obviously wasn’t aware of the finely nuanced meaning of the word ‘Karma’.
LOL! You’re right on target there!
>Very heartening to hear of the successful smuggling operation in the US. Surprised the other inmates were happy to help someone on the sex offender wing…
Yes, that struck me too. In British prisons (it’s different in the U.S.) the system these days does at least allow sex offenders and certain other offenders to strike up friendships within the “vulnerable prisoner” units i.e. inmates are assigned to such a unit because they are likely to face hostility or attack in the rest of the prison.
For instance, when I was in one of these units I shared a cell with a guy who used to be a prosecuting barrister! He was a rising young star in the profession but left because he thought he could make more money in real estate. He did. He became a multi-millionaire but was eventually jailed for money-laundering. He was obviously vulnerable because there were guys on the main wings (armed robbers and the like) he had been personally responsible for sending to prison for many years. Another case of Karma, you might say!
However, he and I got on very well. He did a fantastic job helping me prepare my plea in mitigation when I was coming up for sentencing.
Congratulations! Nowadays, University libraries do not fill their shelves with printed serial journals, they rather pay for an electronic subscription, thus any member of staff has unlimited internet access to all articles, day and night.
>University libraries do not fill their shelves with printed serial journals
Oh, right, it seems I am out of date then. But printed volumes are still produced so I guess someone must buy them. Anyway, thanks for your congratulations!
My dear Tom,
FIrstly, my best congratulations on that magnificent article. It was complex enough to fox my empty head in parts, but in the main it was full of insights and brilliantly argued.
Secondly, that Woodcock man is a politician. You really are expecting too much of the poor fellow if you expect him to act with either courage or integrity?
Thirdly, the generosity of those American prisoners does surprise me! I would have expected ‘main-stream prisoners’ to have torn your MJ work into tatters before handing it on. I think that they certainly would have done so in an Oz jail. But good for them!
Best wishes! M T-W.
Glad you liked the article, Mike. There is of course the danger, when discussing ideals, as I do, of being unrealistically idealistic. But that was also the weakness of the conservative ideals I started out by questioning – or subjecting to intense “Scrutony”!
Dear Tom,
There’s nothing wrong with ideals! Keep yours and your courage intact.
Best possible wishes, Mike.
> that Woodcock man is a politician. You really are expecting too much of the poor fellow if you expect him to act with either courage or integrity
Lol, if only the rest of the population could see this with such clarity.
Ed Chambers
>Lol, if only the rest of the population could see this with such clarity.
I bet deep down most know how it is but too afraid to say so and can’t get passed it.
It’s not that libraries do not buy printed journals, it’s that they are very selective. This means that they may not purchase a journal they want in the library, if it depends on also purchasing a journal they do not want. (Happens all too often.) Exactly the same problem occurs with digital subscriptions, hence our Dear (and very attractive) Russian Friend.
“…hence our Dear (and very attractive) Russian Friend.”
Oh, BJ, did you mean me? Thanks… I’m indeed quite a handsome guy, BTW… yet I’m still interested how you have figured it without ever seeing me face-to-face (or even without watching the photos of me)… 😉
It’s the way your words curve gracefully from screen to meaning….