Are we (or they) driving kids crazy?

A barrage of reports lately provides powerful evidence that young people, including teenagers and children, are suffering an epidemic of mental illness.
A large-scale study of 30,000 pupils by the Department for Education for England, with thousands of teenagers aged 14 and 15 interviewed in-depth, showed a 10% rise in poor mental health over the last decade; depression or anxiety afflicted one in three teenage girls. The number of under-16s being admitted to hospital for self-harm shot up by an astonishing 52%. A recent survey in England found that one in four women between 16 and 24 had self-harmed, and one in eight now suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. Anxiety, depression, phobias or obsessive compulsive disorder were found to affect 26% of women in this age group.
The focus of media attention has been on teenage girls, especially as regards pressures attributed to problems of self-esteem. But in the pre-teen years more than twice as many boys as girls under 11 were in contact with NHS mental health services in England at the end of June 2016, according to a survey of NHS trusts.
So what is going on? As heretics, we are not short of ideas as to why children and teenagers are less happy and thriving than they might be, but we also need our intuitions to be as well informed as possible. With that in mind I took myself off to London for a discussion forum at the Barbican Centre called “Young people and mental illness: a growing problem?”, part of a two-day Battle of Ideas debating event last month run by the Institute of Ideas.
The question mark in the title hints at scepticism – no surprise, really, as the forum was initiated by Social Policy Forum, whose About page says “social policy…is rarely discussed in its own terms. This is a problem because instead of policy makers trying to find ways to better meet people’s needs, they are more likely to be found promoting behavioural change or advocating intrusive interventions into people’s lives.” Ah, yes, intrusive interventions! Some of us here know a thing or two about those and have good reasons to suspect the hyped-up horror stories, moral panics and hidden agendas used to justify them.
In line with this insight, the event description said “Influential voices claim that children today face more pressures from social media than previous generations, adding up to a ‘toxic’ childhood. Critics are wary of drawing more children into a therapeutic relationship with the caring professions, arguing that this would undermine rather than foster resilience.”
Part of this scepticism expresses itself through a disinclination to accept that there really is a mental health crisis among the young. I heard it pointed out, for instance, that school bullying, often cited as a cause of anxiety, depression and suicidal feelings, is nothing new and is an inevitable part of growing up. Kids just have to learn to live with it, the non-interventionists say: it’s part of their social education, it’ll toughen them up and stand them in good stead for the slings and arrows of life’s later fortunes. What we have these days, it is suggested, is the Snowflake Generation: over-protected kids who turn up at university demanding Safe Places where they won’t have to face intellectual “bullies” who will make them feel “uncomfortable” by challenging the politically correct dogmas they have been spoon-fed for as long as they can remember.
Those of us who value free speech will of course warm to its robust defence. We will thus welcome an important distinction implicitly made above between being made merely uncomfortable or anxious on the one hand, and bullying that entails actual or seriously threatened physical violence on the other. They are connected phenomena but radically different in degree. Likewise, there is a big difference in mental health terms between clinically diagnosed conditions such a schizophrenia and severe autism, at the genuinely serious end of the scale, and milder conditions at the other, especially when they are self-diagnosed or only discovered as answers solicited in unscientific surveys of the cheap and cheerful (or gloomy!) sort. Lots of people these days, for instance, claim to be autistic because, unlike some forms of mental illness, it carries no stigma now and has even become quite fashionable. To be “on the spectrum”, with a hint of Asperger’s, is to imply that you or your child might be socially a bit awkward but probably it’s because you are a high-flying geek, or even a genius.
How, then, are we supposed to sort the wheat from the chaff? What mental health issues do young people really face and are they truly getting worse? We have moved on a lot since David Cooper coined the term anti-psychiatry half a century ago, as part of a radical challenge to the whole idea of mental illness that involved such big names as Jacques Lacan, Thomas Szasz and R. D. Laing. These days most experts accept that mental illness is a reality but there is still a huge area of debate as to where individual pathology ends and social issues begin, and how they interact. Even the word “experts” is problematic in any area of investigation where supposedly knowledgeable people cannot agree among themselves.
But at least the forum I attended was privileged to have on its speaker panel someone whose expertise in the field of mental health surveys is indisputable. This was Sir Simon Wessely, president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. A specialist in epidemiological psychiatry, he was a leading contributor to the very large and prestigious Mental health and wellbeing in England: Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey, published last month by NHS Digital.
An expert’s exert, so to say. A witty one, too, especially in a self-deprecating way. But it was in boastful mode that he started, joking that for those who might not know what an epidemiological psychiatrist does, it means that “I don’t get out of bed for less than a thousand people.” The serious point, of course, is that his big-league number-crunching is the only way to get at meaningful trends.
Summarising those trends, he said the general level of mental illness, contrary to what had caught the headlines, was much the same as 30-40 years ago. But the level of anxiety conditions in young women aged 16-24, had gone up from 19% in about 1990 to 26% in 2014, when the new survey was conducted. He was in no doubt that this was a real and significant change. The survey had not published data on those younger than 16, but he said he was aware a similar pattern pertained in girls below this age too. Young males, by contrast, had not become more anxious. Keep in mind the gender disparity; we will return to it.
For now, though, let’s stay with the big picture, and pan out to make it even bigger. Much bigger, sweeping across the whole of our history as a species, and across the entire planet, this time taking the perspective offered by psychologist Steven Pinker, himself an expert’s expert and also one of the world’s leading public intellectuals. Sir Simon may not get out of bed for under a thousand people, but Pinker’s datasets run to the millions and even billions, and his monumental 1026-page tome The Better Angels of Our Nature has a very relevant 38-page section on children and, in recent times, the emergence of the concept of children’s rights. It includes a lot of statistical data and discussion on what the experience of childhood and growing up has been like through history and across cultures, and, in the light of this big picture, how current cultural changes in the developed countries are affecting the young, including their psychological well being.
My worry when reading Pinker was that he seemed to be painting himself into a corner, interpreting his admittedly impressive data in a naïve way, leading to the fallacy of presentism, characterised by our present culture uncritically congratulating itself on having progressed beyond the barbarities of the past towards a near-perfect now, in which present trends merely need to be pushed forward a bit further in order to achieve a society as just and flourishing as possible. I suspected I would have to write him off as another Lloyd deMause (whose work he cites), whose historical work on childhood presents a bleak picture in which children have typically suffered ghastly cruelty and every kind of abuse, including sexual coercion and rape, for millennia and only now are things getting better.
But no, Pinker avoids the trap. So what is he saying? His Better Angels book is subtitled A History of Violence and Humanity, his mission being to explore the nature of conflict and violence and the means by which we might be able to achieve a more peaceful, cooperative and, by implication, saner future which will be better for everyone’s wellbeing, including their mental health. Exploring the recently-developed concept of children’s rights, alongside other “rights revolutions” (ethnic, women, gay, animal), Pinker begins by painting a largely deMausian scene, albeit viewed through the lens of evolutionary psychology rather than deMause’s Freudian approach. In particular, he invokes the insights of evolutionary biologist Robert Trivers into parent-offspring conflict to explain the tough time often given to children throughout history.
We have come a long way, he says, from the “little devil” theory of childhood, when it was felt that kids needed to be thrashed to beat out their innate depravity – colourfully portrayed by a German preacher of the 1520s who sermonised that children harboured wishes for “adultery, fornication, impure desires, lewdness, idol worship, belief in magic, hostility, quarrelling, passion, anger, strife, dissension, facetiousness, hatred, murder, drunkenness, gluttony” and, as Pinker joked, he was just getting started! Like deMause, Pinker sees the Enlightenment’s later invention of childhood “innocence” as mainly a good thing, because it ushered in several centuries in which kids have gradually been treated more kindly, with a much greater concern for their well-being and even, latterly, their rights, albeit largely in terms of the right to be protected against ill-treatment rather than a right to self-determination.
Now, here is where Pinker gets really interesting, because – backed by extensive data, remember, he doesn’t just speculate or make stuff up – he comes to recent times and draws two startling conclusions that go in different directions.
First the good news, which will certainly seem strange in view of the reports of mental health crisis I started off with. Pinker writes:

…over the past two decades the lives or children and adolescents improved in just about every way you can measure. They were less likely to run away, to get pregnant, to get into trouble with the law, and to kill themselves. England and Wales have also enjoyed a decline in violence against children…

And now the bad. The effort to protect children has begun to overshoot its target “and is veering into the realms of sacrament and taboo”. We can see where he is going, can’t we? Kids wrapped in cotton wool by anxious, risk-averse parents and  kept prisoner in their homes. As he puts it: “Children are not allowed to be outside in the middle of the day (skin cancer), to play in the grass (deer ticks), to buy lemonade from a stand (bacteria on lemon peel), or to lick batter off spoons (salmonella from uncooked eggs).” Most of all, they cannot explore on their own or with pals thanks to Stranger Danger. Interestingly, Sir Simon Wessely also singled this out as a persistent source of anxiety in our times, which it is also reasonable to suspect as a major cause not just of anxiety but also of depression and conduct problems for cooped-up kids.
Now, back to the more detailed local picture we started with: How might the specific findings of the various mental health surveys in the UK be best explained? What do they suggest in terms of how  a mentally healthier society might be achieved, especially from childhood through to the early adult years? It will have to be a two-parter this time, I’m afraid. There is no way I can cram a worthwhile response to these big questions into a sensibly-sized single blog.
What I can do, though, is give a brief taster of what is to come next time. I said above that I would return to the marked gender disparity in the figures: boys seem to have a tougher time in the pre-teen years, but after that it is the girls who are in trouble. I have a theory about that, and a fair bit of evidence to support it. I will also be drawing on some of the wisdom I encountered at various sessions in the Battle of Ideas, including not just the mental health one already touched upon but also discussions entitled “Are young people scared of sex?”, “Can neuroparenting save the family?” and “Feminism: in conversation with Camille Paglia”. I trust this leaves you feeling there is something to look forward to!
***
ABUSE INQUIRY GETS A LIFT
The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) definitely needed a substantial lift after being dogged by one farcical disaster after another since its inception.
But someone took the message too literally, it seems, for now they have put an actual lift at the centre of the narrative: you know, one of those chunky, boxy things that takes people up and down in big buildings – a lift at the inquiry’s London headquarters, to be precise. It was named as a crime scene when the inquiry’s most senior lawyer was alleged to have sexually assaulted an inquiry worker within its confines.
The BBC’s Newsnight TV programme broke the story and the corporation’s online news reported that “Ben Emmerson QC was suspended in September over concerns about his conduct, but the suspension was lifted the next day when he resigned, allowing him to keep working for the inquiry for two months.” Nothing appears to have been reported to the police and, unsurprisingly, Emmerson insists nothing happened.
You know what? I don’t believe the “victim’s” story. It simply beggars belief that a guy of Emmerson’s standing, at the centre of an inquiry into sexual abuse of all things, would do anything so stupid, especially to such a person in such a place. This reeks of the victim-lobby’s non-stop manoeuvring to get their way. Publicly, they praised him when he was first suspended, but I wouldn’t put it past one or two of them – or more – to stab him in the back by concocting a yarn intended to make his position untenable but without necessarily having to make an allegation sworn on oath in court.
The “victims” would not have forgotten that Emmerson had the courage to face down at least one of their number. As Heretic TOC reported last year, he said that Sharon Evans, one of the victims’ lobby representatives on the enquiry panel, could not tell the difference between truth and error.
 

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

110 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments

[…] mental health in a three-part blog under the “driving kids crazy” heading three years ago. See here, here and here. Key themes from that trilogy will be touched on below but first let’s take a look […]

[…] The conference was the excellent annual Battle of Ideas chat-fest on topical controversies, from #MeToo to Brexit to climate change, organised by the Institute of Ideas, whose director, Claire Fox, will be known to many heretics as a regular panellist on BBC Radio 4’s The Moral Maze. Those with an elephantine memory will recall that I wrote about this gathering a couple of years ago in “Are we (or they) driving kids crazy?” […]

[…] and arrest young perverts. Oh yes, the inquisition wages a vicious war against youth sexuality too. Heretic TOC highlighted a sad fact that around one in three registered sex offenders in both the UK and the US […]

A.

Haven’t time at the moment for a long comment on these fascinating pieces, but, though I’m far from a qualified neonatologist, I do wonder whether the large number of premature babies who now survive is making any kind of contribution to the (apparently) increasing prevalence of conditions like ADHD, Asperger’s etc., which can in turn lead to problems with depression and anxiety. As I understand it, care for premature babies has come on by leaps and bounds and many, many more of them live than used to in, say, the 70s, but there’s still a low limit on what we can do to keep them from the resultant disabilities, which can range from severe cerebral palsy and mental retardation to a need for glasses and subtle but significant trouble with organisation, concentration and impulse control. At the milder end of the scale, these difficulties may well not be noted in follow-up studies on former preemies, which often follow them only up until the age of about three, or else until they catch up with their peers — not accounting for the fact that the child who catches up at three or four may be falling behind again at seven or eight as the social and academic demands of school become more complex. I’ve read pieces by mothers of former preemies who were quite exercised by the relative lack of research into the area.
A Norwegian study I found in a hurry: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0706475#t=articleResults
And, touching on the gender difference you mentioned, boys seem to be harder hit by the effects of prematurity: http://www.child-psych.org/2009/07/long-term-effects-of-prematurity.html

A.

I’m sure it is only a small proportion, yes. This WHO fact sheet http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs363/en/ does put the US sixth for absolute numbers of babies born preterm, and combined with the eagerness to medicalise normal distress or disruptiveness and to drug kids that we see in much of the US, that could be having enough of an effect to move the needle a bit.
Funnily enough the research I can find on the effects of prematurity seems to be coming out of the Nordic countries: there’s that Norwegian study, these Swedish studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21502231/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19117846 and this Finnish study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677565/ . For that matter the Swedes and Danes are the only people to recognise a syndrome called DAMP, for Deficits in Attention, Motor control and Perception, which is supposedly like a cross between ADHD and dyspraxia, and borders on the autism spectrum. There’s a lot of overlap among all these syndromes, I’m told.
The Finnish study does specify that preterm birth is associated with classic autism, but not with Asperger’s syndrome. My guess about the Asperger’s is that a lot of square pegs who well within living memory would have been happy finding a niche in a manufacturing economy and being emotionally supported by family now struggle badly with service-economy demands for schmoozing, flexibility and thinking on one’s feet, and don’t get as much emotional support as they need because extended family ties have been weakened. And they’re suffering a lot, it seems: this Swedish study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283523527_Premature_mortality_in_autism_spectrum_disorder , which was widely reported on last spring, found a ninefold increase in the suicide rate of autistic adults with no intellectual disability as compared to that in the general population.

eqfoundation

Isn’t it tragically sad, how we commonly have to turn to the religious nuts who are most hostile towards human nature, just to get any kind of honest acknowledgement that certain things actually do exist in children?
…It’s much like how we have to look at zealots, for outside citations of Harry Hay’s connection with us.
Looking forward to your ideas on transgendered kids, Tom.
…I’ve been loosely exploring this topic for a while.

Work-shyAnarchistsOnCampus!

Yawn! Harry Hay was an irrelevant figure by his death, and a few phrases he threw in our direction is misleading: LGBTism is built upon the genocidal heaps of ruined boylovers. It is FOREVER the ENEMY!

Well…I think, things like denied history are amongst the many faults which are coming back around to haunt the LGBT.
And what I was getting at, I believe…was that the LGBT is so bad, you cannot even get an accurate historical perspective out of them…But we can got some type of acknowledgement out of the zealots…slanted as it usually is.
I just think that’s a pathetic state of affairs…LGBT should own [and respect] it’s history.

Lukas

If the LGBT Community should own its history it would no longer exist. That would be fine by me. We must leave ignorance behind.

eqfoundation

My outlook is a little bit different.
Leave ignorance behind, yes…But unless someone is poised to lead a movement that overshadows LGBT…then LGBT is what’s here for the foreseeable future. I’ve known enough gay and lesbian people in my lifetime, to where I support some type of political entity, fighting on behalf of their rights.
The bad blood, while understandable, is doubtful to produce any good outcome for people like us.
Expose their own bad behavior and hold them accountable?…absolutely!
Try to destroy the advances my gay and lesbian friends have realized?…No.

Lukas

Yes eqfoundation we must know and expose their history, their history of lies supported by bad psychology not based on empirical evidence but based on theories, grafts and charts not based on reality. That is the way forward.
We are doing the same thing in the field of economics to battle the neo-liberals who we know have left us, “We The People” in the lurch. God it would be fun to find some young, brave & skilled boylove researcher to get into our history with. Maybe we need to do a film much like “Paragraph 175” but focus on boylovers. There was one in that film: Heinz Dormer the unrepentant and joyful old scoutmaster.
Lukas

SickToDeathofMisandristLeftists!

THE LGBTers are genocidal scum.
THEY ARE BUILT ON OUR DESTRUCTION.
YOu are filth for supporting them!

Lukas

SickToDeathofMisandristLeftists!
Yes, they have built themselves upon our genocide. I get as angry as you. 🙁
Love,
Lukas

If I were Tom, I’d just delete your replies…You don’t behave like someone who deserves to be able to participate here.

eqfoundation

Thanks Tom…
Believe me, I have no desire for a sanitized internet, nor do I shy away from hard issues…
…I just think when it devolves to personal attacks, it’s time for whoevers being a disruptive presence to leave…until they stop acting like something that belongs in an exhibit at the zoo.
…I’ll never try to tell anyone how to run their blog…I just don’t have a high tolerance for foul behavior, myself.
I expect that kind of abuse out of non-MAPs…But it absolutely steps on my last nerve, when MAPs do this to other MAPs…especially in such an unreasonable manner.
Any actual MAP knows from first hand experience, why this kind of behavior is so destructive…There is something wrong, when empathy for other MAPs is missing.
…Plus, it should never be ignored…lots and lots of trolls have passed themselves off as MAPs, just so they could hang around and cause trouble amongst MAPs.
They are not a healthy thing to tolerate, long term.
…You, however, have a healthy group of level headed commentators…This helps to counterbalance the lesser civil ones.

Dissident

Tom, based on the subject of whether or not Clinton was the “less evil” choice than Trump, I figured you and my fellow followers of your blog would like to check out the following very scathing but extremely insightful rant from British political satirist Jonathan Pie (I’m betting you’ve heard of him!), as he expounds in a no holds barred fashion exactly why the Democrats are largely to blame for the likes of Trump obtaining a victory, and how foolish they were to promote someone like Clinton instead of supporting Sanders in the primaries instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs

Dissident

I look at these two particular slogans, Tom: “If you vote for the lesser of two evils, you’re still perpetuating evil.” Or, “Voting for the lesser evil prevents you from choosing the greater good.” It was very arguable as to which of these two were the greater or lesser evils, and in my estimation they were rather comparable. The thing is, we weren’t forced to choose between the greater or lesser of two evils. The Americans could have supported Sanders en masse, or better yet, supported Jill Stein. But instead, they allow themselves to be continuously duped or extorted into sticking with one of the two major parties, both of whom will always present a candidate who is fully loyal to Wall Street and their global imperialist agenda.
Voting for Trump was a desperate bid by many Americans to pick “change,” any type of change, over what Hillary was offering, which was no change whatsoever from the terrible things Obama had done around the world. For the past several decades, “change” has always been narrowly defined by Americans as voting in a candidate of the other of the two major parties. Then, when they end up getting more of the same from that candidate and their affiliated party for four to eight years, they yearn for “change” again and vote for the candidate of the other of the two parties. And so on and so on…

gordonk

Do keep in mind that in fact, more people DID vote for Hillary. It was the electoral college that gave the win to Trump. Most polls had her with a small lead and that’s what she won with. It is a stupid system, and there are some changes possible.
One is a constitutional change, which would take years but the other is a state by state vote that says they will give their electors to whoever wins the popular vote. There are several states working on that now and once you get the states to total over 270, it automatically works.

stephen6000

Wow! I think he’s got a point!

stephen6000

Oh dear, WordPress has done it again! When I said ‘He’s got a point!’ I meant Jonathan Pie in the video, not, as the position of my comment might suggest, Dissident – though he too, as always, has many points:-)

eqfoundation

I largely agree with this. The only caveat, is that people are now starting to discuss how Trump’s words [poorly thought out and expressed, as they usually are], were taken out of context and spun.
Claiming that being rich and powerful makes many women open towards letting you “grab their pussy” may be somewhat creepy…but does it make you a “sexual predator”?…It also seems that the “raped thirteen year old girl” dropped her charges against Trump.
Much of his “racism” amounted to promising to enforce existing immigration laws…and stupid, Jeb Bush-esq wording [IE: “all sex offenders in prison are pedophiles”?]…If Trump is such a racist, then why is he married to a person of a different race? Let’s be real…He was talking about the Mexicans who slip across the boarder, rape and assault people [in the context of a discussion on immigration policy]…He wasn’t talking about the entirety of Mexico…The guy engages his mouth, before he fully engages his brain.
I predict Trump is going to be like a second coming of George W., for comedians…and social commentators…And yes, even a blind man can see this coming.
Neither Trump nor Clinton had any path to my own vote, mind you.
With all of Hillary’s serious baggage that got fluffed off by the media…I just find it incredulous that they latched onto the dumbest things to spin about Trump…The brazen slant was just sickening…and insulting.
All we had in this freak show, was a pig in pearls versus a pig in a mud puddle…I’ll leave it up to you, to decide which candidate was which.
…My apologies for insulting the species of pigs…They are nowhere near that corrupt.

Libertine

I, for one, hope that youth will again revolt and again demoralize the dead weight of conformity that now lies upon us.~Howard Mumford Jones!

EU-EvenUber BetterNews

U tell ’em Libertine old buddy ole PAL (PIE, IPCE, NAMBLA, Vunderland, BoyChat, GirlLuv, et al.)
The Future’s BRIGHT – The Future’s ADULTOPHILE !
AAM/AdultAttractedMinors (don’t ferget yer HARDhead-hats minors down them lurvely dirty mines, mass mining so called ‘Adult’ minds – Open Cast!)
AAM o-fficial mantra, “My Mind My Body My Choice My Pedo – Mind Yer Own!”
Tee-hee shirts, base-bawl caps, dutch caps optional, “Consent Matters Age Doesn’t” “Safe Sport For All – Safe SeX For All – All Fun – All FREE Ya’ll !”
Licensed by licentious Ed LEER/TomLewis O’Carroll-ites et al, “U Know It Makes NonceSense – 3 Boat Boyz In A Man, Where The Hairless Pussy Tree Grows?!”
Miskwote lil Loli Alice to the BIG BAD Red Kween o’ Farts & Tarts, “Ur just a pack o’ crap!”
Mad Hats, Doormice, Tweedle Dee Dumbed Down Twins ‘n’ all, sail away fer a year ‘n’ a day to the land where BONKING Adultophiles grow…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsense_verse
Ya’ll CUM bak now real soon…

stephen6000

I have to say, after all this time, that I think your style is rather good. It is like an experimental novel. One is not always keen to read it, but one suspects that the defect may be in oneself rather than in the thing one is reluctant to engage with. So may you prosper! (Of course, it also helps that your sentiments are exactly mine!)

EU-EvenUber BetterNews

Ye chronically semi-unstable pre-PLANET PED PANIC-NicK-nick nnnnnervous AngloVile Goode Olde Days?
Child protection was not a priority at Scotland Yard during the early 1990s, according to Mike Hames, who was head of the MET police paedophilia unit from 1989-1994. The police watchdog is to investigate whether officers failed to pursue allegations of child abuse made against former Prime Minister Sir Edward Heath. Mr Hames said he had only 16 officers to deal with paedophile activity. However, if investigations got near a prominent figure, “nobody at any time put pressure on me or my colleagues to stop.” Bent-BritBrainCrap Flagshit R4Skin, 4 August 2015.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02yrzff

EvenBetterNews

1) Why is it now OK/’cool’ for chronically confused/MASS ABUSED phoney Anglophone kids to come out as transgender, but not as ADULTOPHILE?
Answer the question, answer the Goddamn question!!
2) R U now, or have U ever been, a member of the phoney Anglophone Populist Mass Confusers Repugnant Party/PMCRP?
Answer the question, answer the Goddamn question!!

Peace

I’ll attempt to address the first point.
First off, kids can definitely come out as adultophiles! You’ve never seen girls and boys drooling over the hottest adult actors and actresses and how much they’d love them as their boyfriend or girlfriend? If you’re saying why can’t kids engage in sexual activities with adults, well, that’s the law.
Kids can come out as trans because it’s their own body and identity and it does not affect anybody else. I don’t know why you think it’s “cool” to come out as trans because trans kids are still at a huge risk to get a whole lot of crap from their peers and family, to the point where they may run away from home. In addition, suicide and assault rates are higher for transpeople.
If you’re worried that kids are being pumped full of hormones, then don’t be because hormone replacement therapy is rare before the age of about 16 or 17. Young kids may take puberty blockers to stop secondary sex characteristics from developing, but it’s unlikely they will be taking testosterone or estrogen. Even trans adults often have difficulties acquiring hormones due to gate-keeping techniques used by doctors and as such the process is long, arduous, and not glamorous at all.

Nada

There’s a vast difference between being perceived to have a crush on an older adult actor or musician and declaring one’s love for a more ordinary adult one knows personally.
Even much older girls, fully legal teenagers, are vary of coming out as preferring older men. Unlike coming out as GBLT, positive press about this preference is nearly non-existent, while neutral press is rare. See this recent BC post, regarding the difficulties of a German teen: http://r2j4xiyckibnyd45.onion/messages/1488296.htm
From a risk perspective, is a kid better off coming out as attracted to pedophiles or as a pedophile than he or she is coming out as trans?

Peace

Your link doesn’t work, but from a risk perspective alone, coming out as trans is much more dangerous than coming out as attracted to adults. As for youth who are pedophiles, that’s hard to say because 1) people might say “it’s just a phase” or not believe the person in question, and 2) we have no data to look at.
A quick look at GLADD’s Understanding Issues Facing Transgender Americans from 2015 (http://www.glaad.org/sites/default/files/understanding-issues-facing-transgender-americans.pdf) shows an alarming amount of various forms of discrimination and violence against transpeople, including trans youth. Since transpeople may not always pass as their gender, there’s a risk of strangers noticing and harassing them, unlike pedophilia which is usually a secret and not likely to come to light. People can often “pretend” to be straight or teliophiles, but transpeople in the process of transitioning aren’t likely to have that kind of option. If you’ve never had the chance to, I recommend finding accounts by trans youth and reading about their experiences straight from the source because it says more than I ever could.

Peace

The problem I have with using accounts of those on the SO registry as data about pedophilia is that being on the SO registry is not the same thing as coming out as a pedophile, which is what I believe the original poster was talking about. If we’re discussing being on the SO registry, there is definitely a huge risk (and often inevitability) of harassment and violence.
I’m glad to hear that you’ve gotten a chance to learn about trans issues straight from the mouth of those who are affected by them. I’ll dig through my bookshelf and computer to find some good stuff and I’ll e-mail you some recommendations.

Nada

@Peace Nov 11, 2016 @ 02:05:19
The link should work (if you use the Tor browser). Alternatively, you could try substituting boychat.org for the onion domain when/if BC’s other version works – it currently doesn’t.
But from a risk perspective alone, coming out as trans is much more dangerous than coming out as attracted to adults.
Dubious. I’m under the impression trans people enjoy vastly more legal protection and social acceptance than Adult Attracted Minors or MAPs.
The German teen, in the link above, ended up in a mental hospital. After being outed, an AAM and former GC contributor, Fayla, was forced into therapy and dating boys her own age. To you, are those indications of less danger?
People can often “pretend” to be straight or teliophiles
Leaving aside the trivial reply that not everyone can – transpeople can also “pretend” and have a choice regarding their transition. The consequences of failure, however, are not equivalent. Even at worst, violence to trans people is a hatecrime, not so violence against pedophiles!
I am familiar with accounts of trans youths, thank you. Are you familiar with the Fayla incident mentioned above, as well as out, or even suspected, pedophiles (to say nothing of SO) being subjected to violence or state harassment? Or even the accounts, found on our boards, of young pedophiles suffering?
I get the impression you don’t consider either the treatment or the suffering of MAPs or AAM to be problem when compared against issues such as those faced, according to GLAAD, by GBLTs in the US.

Peace

Please note that much of the discrimination and unfair treatment of AAMs and pedophiles (NOT sex offenders) is social. For trans individuals, this discrimination is very much systematic in nature – you can see this with the recent surge of bathroom bills. A large swath of the US still does not have state-level protection for trans individuals, and most states have not banned conversion therapy for minors. In addition, transgender people are still not protected under hate crime laws in 33 states. They often have to jump through hundreds of hoops in order to have their gender identity verified by the government and society at large. Trans youth get sent to therapy and psychiatric hospitals all the time in order to “fix them,” most likely at a rate that’s higher than AAMs.
For transpeople, getting permission from doctors and surgeons to start hormones or complete sex-reassignment surgery more often than not requires letters from therapists or physicians stating that the person in question has lived life as their preferred gender for a set amount of time. This means that transpeople who wish to fully transition must go out in public while presenting as their preferred gender. Yes, they could lie, but so could AAMs and pedophiles.
Me saying that transpeople have a more difficult time in life than AAMs is not saying that AAMs do not also have a difficult time in life. I’m a MAP who’s suffered because of society’s reaction to my attractions, and I don’t “ignore” the pain of those in my community or of a child who was forced to enter a mental health facility due to their sexual orientation alone.

stephen6000

Can’t we just agree that both groups suffer and stop arguing about which suffers most? Surely that debate is rather futile and distracts attention from the need to achieve justice for both groups.

Peace

Agreed, this is exhausting. I apologize for entering debate mode in the first place, I’m just way too used to people telling me that trans people are “selfish” and experience absolutely no hardship.

Nada

Please note that much of the discrimination and unfair treatment of AAMs and pedophiles (NOT sex offenders) is social.
Social discrimination prosper, due to legal discrimination. By not allowing SO, you place arbitrary restrictions on the group, when no such restrictions are put on the control group.
Trans people not being covered by hate crime laws in some states was news to me. On the other hand, I am aware of no US state granting pedophiles and AAMs such legal protection!
Regarding “systematic” discrimination, is having to use the “wrong” bathroom necessarily worse than having to chose between a lifetime of celibacy or a decent probability of a significant legal penalty for both you and your partner?
I doubt the “conversion” therapy can hold a candle to what law-abiding pedophiles can be subjected to, by medical doctors, in Sweden, Germany or even the US, in addition to the “liberal” sex education considering them, essentially, to be scum of the Earth.
http://acsh.org/news/2016/05/11/swedens-publicly-funded-chemical-castration-project
As gender dysphoria is a disease, would you prefer suffering youths not being treated by doctors? The accounts, from doctors and trans people, I’ve read differ significantly from those given regarding the treatment of pedophilia.
In short, while there might be red tape remaining, trans people are treated humanly by the doctors, and by the larger society, while pedophiles are treated little better than rabid dogs.
Me saying that transpeople have a more difficult time in life than AAMs
Have you considered the ethical implications of your claims?
Assuming you want to reduce suffering, and believe trans-people suffer more than AAMs or pedophiles, will you let a trans-person suffer rather than an AAM or a pedophile?

Peace

I’m done with this conversation and would’ve been more than happy to come back to it when Tom posts his transyouth blog. However, the way you talk about conversion therapy and dismiss its effects since it doesn’t reach the heights of chemical castration is downright disrespectful. Time and time again and study after study has found that any kind of attempt to “fix” or change sexual orientation or gender identity is emotionally and mentally damaging. Actually helpful therapy for transpeople will not attempt to change their gender, and the most effective treatment for gender dysphoria is transitioning.
If you’re that concerned about how the world treats SOs and pedophiles then perhaps you should focus your energy on changing that and working to fight damaging laws and programs rather than talking about how good transpeople have it.
Feel free to say something back, but I will not be making anymore replies to you.

Nada

Regarding disrespect, I was under the impression most people here were MAPs, not special snowflakes. That we, so to speak, had been to the war already and carried our own scars from it, from the relatively trivial, attempts at conversion therapy and the like, to losing employment or even freedom.
When evidence suggests transpeople have it relatively good, compared to pedophiles, it’s disrespectful to both groups, not to mention unethical, to misrepresent that. That is not to say that all transpeople are necessarily selfish or that no transperson suffer. I spell this out explicitly, to counter the SJW hyperbole.

Libertine
Dissident

Hi, Peace!
First off, kids can definitely come out as adultophiles!
Did you know that we now have an “official” academic term for younger people who have a sexual preference for significantly older but not elderly adults thanks to researcher Michael Seto? 🙂 It’s called a “mesophile”; on GC, poster Theo surmised the prefix “meso” roughly translates into the English language as “middle,” as in “middle-aged,” in case you were curious about the etymology. The term “gerontophile” is now used exclusively for younger people with a preference for specifically elderly adults. Of course, I’m guessing underage mesophiles could be given the acronym AAM’s (Adult Attracted Minors) to distinguish them from mesophiles were not legally underage.
Seto’s article where he introduced the term was discussed by Tom in a recent blog.
You’ve never seen girls and boys drooling over the hottest adult actors and actresses and how much they’d love them as their boyfriend or girlfriend? If you’re saying why can’t kids engage in sexual activities with adults, well, that’s the law.
Agreed. Of course, our culture doesn’t consider it “weird” or “inappropriate” for underagers to crush on adult celebrities, or even adults who are not celebrities. However, it’s most definitely considered those things for an adult to crush back on them.
Kids can come out as trans because it’s their own body and identity and it does not affect anybody else. I don’t know why you think it’s “cool” to come out as trans because trans kids are still at a huge risk to get a whole lot of crap from their peers and family, to the point where they may run away from home. In addition, suicide and assault rates are higher for transpeople.
I’m guessing what he meant by it being considered “cool” to come out as trans is because these days, despite the very real difficulties you mentioned above, trans people–like individuals who are gay or lesbian–nevertheless receive widespread support among mainstream liberal institutions, organizations, and political parties. They are no longer pilloried in the mainstream media, including the entertainment industry, and have even been added to the LGBT acronym, thus being officially accepted by the gay/lesbian/bisexual community as a legitimate “queer” tendency. This is most assuredly not so for MAPs/Kind people by comparison.
For example, you will currently see many positive and even heroic examples of LGBT characters on popular TV shows (check out MTV sometime!) and films, as well as outright sympathetic portrayals. In contrast, you will be hard pressed to see comparable positive or sympathetic examples of MAPs on popular TV shows or films at this time. Instead, Kind people are still most often relegated to roles as demonically evil, two-dimensional villains on popular police procedural shows or other crime dramas, and all positive and heroic characters in any show or movie are portrayed as never being MAPs, and very rarely ever displaying attractions even to much younger people of legal age.

Peace

I will concede that popular media has been much kinder to trans people than to MAPs, since I myself have complained about lack of positive representation before. I’m glad to see that more transkids will have a positive role model to look up to, since most older films that had trans characters relegated them to being a joke character. Perhaps one day we’ll be able to look back at old films and laugh at how they used to portray us.
As for being a “legitimate queer identity,” I believe I’ve spoken about this before but there’s still some animosity and tension between the LGB and T part of the acronym. Gay people may feel that trans people are “dragging their progress down” or say that straight transpeople aren’t really queer, and may be more than happy to throw transpeople under the bus if it suits their needs. There’s been a rash of gay white cismen who now vote against queer progress because what they wanted (marriage equality) has been gained and they no longer need to worry about other queer people. Every movement has their internal strife, I guess.

Christian

Reciprocally, trans people may sometimes complain that most LGB are marginalising them, do not take into account their grievances, and are in fact behaving as cis-chauvinists.

Dissident

There’s been a rash of gay white cismen who now vote against queer progress because what they wanted (marriage equality) has been gained and they no longer need to worry about other queer people. Every movement has their internal strife, I guess.
The important point to take from that, I believe, is this: no group of people is inherently more noble or less inclined towards petty ignorance or opportunistic behavior simply for being a member of whichever minority group. That includes all LGBT people, and that includes MAPs as well (as you can see when the same petty divisions arise between BLer’s and GLer’s, for example).
Nevertheless, I do maintain that nowadays being “out” as transgendered in the West isn’t nearly as controversial or marginalizing as being “out” or “outed” as being Kind. I will contend that for every LGB person you see voting against acceptance of the T part of the acronym, you will find at least one who is defending unity. How often, though, do you see any LGBT activists or orgs defending MAPs, or arguing for them being included as part of the “queer” acronym? In contrast, how often do you see LGBT activists and orgs actually joining in on the demonization of Kind people, doing everything they can to distance themselves from us both personally and politically for the perceived benefit of their continued progress in assimilating into the hetero-normative institutions of monogamous marriage, cozy nuclear family units, and corporation-serving ways of living?
As for it being perfectly fine for underagers in this day and age to “come out” as mesophiles? I would argue such is the case only if they are willing to risk having what few freedoms they are allowed–including regular access to computers–taken from them, being forced into pre-emptive counseling, and being monitored even more closely by their parents than kids typically are already. This won’t likely happen if they simply declare they have a crush on this or that celebrity or teacher, but if they come out declaring mesophilia as an actual identity, and openly argue for acceptance of having a preference for significantly older adults, they are looking for trouble. Coming “out” as trans, however, is quite the same thing, as they are not declaring an identity that can potentially put them at odds with the geronto-centric power hegemony and extreme age segregation that are currently major foundations of Western society.
I think being both trans and Kind makes you a very important part of our community, Peace, because you are able to see things from a perspective that both the typical LGBT and typical MAP cannot. A sort of “hybrid” perspective that can bridge the gap between us, so I’m always interested in what you have to say 🙂

Libertine

” trans people–like individuals who are gay or lesbian–nevertheless receive widespread support among mainstream liberal institutions, organizations, and political parties”
Hi…Maybe that will change soon, At least in the US if you get my drift!
I had a chat in my gym today with a bloke that works with ex-offenders, and comes into contact with ‘sex-offenders’ sometimes, He seems an open minded person, we’ve talked about ‘moral panics’ by Stan Cohen etc, But like many, anything remotely involving sex with kids is a red line; He said ‘sometimes I just want to take them out, Maybe say they attacked me, I try to remain professional as much as I can’….But this is not a conversation you can exploit in any depth, Unless you are ‘outed’…Though, If I was, I wouldn’t ask him to spot me on the decline bench. When I asked him to spot me, I said, ‘don’t drop it on me now’..A private joke to myself, and to the readers on here.
If the conversation was safe to pursue, I could’ve asked; Were they the Ian Huntley types or Michael Jackson types, does he know the difference?

SickTODEATHoftheANTI-MALEAGENDA!

Nobody on ANY site has ever answered my questions: Is there ANY evidence that boys and girls do less well and are more unhappy on account of there being no interaction between adults and children? Or is it just “in my day” reminiscences?
As for children liking adults, they PREFER their own age, and ONLY VERY RARELY are they more attracted to adults than teenagers their own age. Otherwise we would see MASSIVE breaking of the rules and schoolchildren running off with adults. It DOESN’T HAPPEN because of the SEXUAL REVOLUTION, fool!
Boys and Girls are ALWAYS breaking rules, so as SOON as they start to demand the right to love adults I will of course defend them, but they DON’T.
And STOP trying to attach modern identity politics to minor attracted activism: it DOESN’T WORK and NEVER WILL.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to be a leftist and a “lover of children”. Unless you believe in adults guiding children and teaching them things, and that inequality doesn’t matter, you CAN’T be a leftist and a childlover. IT’S a POWER IMBALANCE: is that SO HARD for you to understand?

bjmuirhead

As for children liking adults, they PREFER their own age, and ONLY VERY RARELY are they more attracted to adults than teenagers their own age.
I have to agree with you, but with a caveat.
In the majority of contemporary western cultures, children, and post-pubescent young adults, rarely are treated with respect (I am thinking of the most basic supposition of respect for persons.) The result is that the majority of adult’s “talk down” to children and young adults. I have seen this in respect of my own children where the eldest, now 17, is spoken to by both teachers and his mother as though he is 9 or 10.
Why would any child or young adult be attracted to an older person if they are not treated with respect by that adult? Sexual attraction and desire is much more than mere physicality, after all. Of course, if a child is treated with respect by an adult, the danger is one of being charged with “grooming”.
Just a thought, something for you to think about, because it seems to me that there are reasons, in our culture, why children and young adults would not be attracted to and/or express attraction for adults.

eqfoundation

I have to agree with Peace.
It’s the unspoken default, for kids to embrace the culturally normal ideas of “sexy”. At a certain age, it’s common for them to become attracted to adults…though, generally of a specific kind of body style.
…”Fat Uncle Stevie” doesn’t get posters made of him, that get hung on the walls of girls and gay boys, after all.
It’s always been normal for kids to look at adults in a sexual way…at least when they hit a certain age, where they start recognizing it.
The issue is suppression of these thoughts, or the ability to openly talk about it.
I’m reminded of a few years ago, where this boy of about ten years old was making YouTube videos…To make a short story shorter, he essentially mimicked performing oral sex [in a comical way], while talking about how hot a grown woman model was…And his channel got shut down, fast.
Every now and then, maybe a sex expert with integrity will acknowledge this natural attraction in kids, towards adults…But normally, the only people really talking about anything like this, is people like us…
…Which leads me to my perplexity with the question posed…
Is there actually a trend amongst MAPs, to deny the existence of this attraction in kids?

Lukas

You bet: We are driving our kids crazy. Repeal all vice laws. Decriminalize pleasure. Send the Puritan/Pilgrims back to Manning’s Pub in Ipswich UK where they gathered before boarding the Mayflower. My pal in Ipswich said ‘no’ to that. He said we sent them off we do not want them back.
Horace Mann advocated for the US entry into WW1 because he thought the discipline would be good for young men. We are nuts — totally bonkers..
Lukas

TheNewEraOfSoft-ShoedTotalitarianismIsUponUs!

HE, John Paul Jones, was a paedophile, though this is CAREFULLY suppressed in the classroom:
In April 1789 Jones was arrested and accused of raping a 12-year-old girl named Katerina Goltzwart.[25] But the Count de Segur, the French representative at the Russian court (and also Jones’ last friend in the capital), conducted his own personal investigation into the matter and was able to convince Potëmkin that the girl had not been raped and that Jones had been accused by Prince de Nassau-Siegen for his own purposes;[26] Jones, however, admitted to prosecutors that he had “often frolicked” with the girl “for a small cash payment,” only denying that he had deprived her of her virginity.[27] Even so, in that period he was able to author his Narrative of the Campaign of the Liman.

Lukas

Tom, My Periscope friend in Ipswich corrected what he said. It was most of the members of the crew of the Mayflower that gathered at Manning’s in Ipswich. He said they were Leary because of the weather. Interesting because it brings what seems so long ago right down to today: A Pub We Could Walk Into and Have a Pint.
Lukas

Work-shyAnarchistsOnCampus!

Who can walk into a British pub these days? Without being “ideed” like in East Germany.
I personally don’t bother. British culture is dead and I feel an outsider. Rather get drunk by myself over the internet. Also, BOYS are not allowed in pubs. It’s just another example of the apartheid culture that is HELL.

Work-shyAnarchistProtesters!

I was just saying how MOST people have NO IDEA how in the past boys and men and even men and girls were FAR MORE integrated. And for someone like me it is just uninteresting most of the time sitting with conventional old wankers in some pub.
I was simply raising the flag for while we are constantly looking down on Saudi Arabia and to an extent Iran for their separation of the sexes, we NEVER question the FAR WORSE purdah between adults and young people in the West? This is FAR MORE unhealthy.

Work-shyAnarchistProtesters!

I WASN’T DEFENDING SAUDI ARABIA I WAS POINTING OUT THE HYPOCRISY WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THERE IS AN UNMENTIONED PURDAH FAR WORSE
AND I REALLY HAD IN MIND COUNTRIES LIKE SYRIA AND IRAQ AND THAT REGION IN GENERAL
DO YOU KNOW THESE COUNTRIES. I DO SO FUCK OFF!

Christian

LSM did a good post on the topic: https://consentinghumans.wordpress.com/2016/04/06/where-have-all-the-children-gone/
The laundry detergent brand Skip (France) / Persil (UK) is making a clever publicity campaign on the rights of kids to play outdooors and get dirty. See their web adverts (UK: https://www.persil.co.uk/free-the-kids/ and France: https://www.skip.fr/liberez-les-enfants/) and their video:
https://youtu.be/8Q2WnCkBTw0
It shows prison inmates in the US, who have just two hours a day going outdoors, and who say that it is the best moment in their day, without it they would get mad; then the interviewer tells them that kids get even less time outdoors, and the prisoners are flabbergasted. Indeed, the brand claims that kids spend only half that time outdoors: one hour a day.

Dissident

Yet as a child, my friends and I would routinely be out of the house many hours a day, even on school days. Things have definitely changed since the Great Moral Panic of the 1980s-Onwards started. Lensman has written many important things about this on his blog.

gordonk

I think that there are a lot of factors impacting kids today that we didn’t have. School is now a grind to make sure you pass those damn tests and what they teach is almost totally aimed at that goal. A lot of schools have cut things like art class, recess and gym. We have some young twenty somethings working in the office with us and we are shocked at their lack of understanding, knowledge and curiosity about the world. The books that we read aren’t being read by them. Heck, they don’t even know about television shows from before they were born. They have no historical perspective, I guess.
Throw in over protective parents and the fact that these kids never planned out a day of free time in their lives and they feel overwhelmed by the world. They can’t even j walk since they never dealt with crossing the street by themselves. I watch college kids nervously stare down the road at a green light with not a car in sight and they cannot cross until the light changes.
When I was a kid, my parents didn’t want me hanging around all day. They’d throw me outside on a nice day and tell me to go play with friends. (That rarely happened, since I was probably already out and about.) Now, the kids see a world filled with danger. LIving in a perpetual war zone has to take a toll and then school without creativity must be soul sucking. I can see why childhood is less fun than it used to be.

gordonk

One advantage we had growing up was a lack of cable television. As a kid, we only had ten channels or so and on weekends, your viewing options were limited. That meant a lot of old, black and white movies from the thirties on up into the sixties. Old westerns, gangster, war and romantic comedies. They gave you a bit of a sense of history. Now, thanks to the interweb, kids only watch new, current content. Try and get one to sit and watch an old movie sometime. Hard to do. We learned a lot out of school thanks to these old flicks.
I also think that culture has changed. A lot of those old movies, (and books) dealt with moral issues. Courage, ambition, good vs. evil, and the like. Now, most are about action with less motive and more special effects. I can remember being so terribly moved by television and movies back when I was a kid and I don’t get that feeling as often now.
Toss in the movement to make sure every kid has “self esteem” and you get uneducated little snowflakes. Parents that make sure their kids don’t get into trouble are not doing their kids any favors. It’s making those mistakes and correcting them, or dodging the bullet that help us grow and kids today aren’t getting those chances.
I was reading that today’s youth do less drugs, drink less alcohol and have less sex. I do not think that this is a good thing. It might be good for creating a society of obedient followers, but it won’t make it a creative, risk taking one.

Peace

Excuse me for my hippy-dippy liberalism, but in what world should we be encouraging youth to engage in criminal activities that will have a lasting impact on their health, emotional well-being, and professional life? Youth can take risks and be creative without involving themselves in criminal behavior that could negatively affect their prospects later in life. This is especially true for minority youth, who are both arrested at a higher frequency than non-minority youth and often have a more difficult time acquiring jobs even without a criminal record.
Heightened drug and alcohol use and abuse are usually linked with emotional problems and can affect the development of a teenager’s brain – we want to encourage alternate ways of solving problems and working through emotional issues that will serve them in their adult life. The youth of today are perhaps more well-informed than the youth of yesterday, and I applaud them for that.

Peace

I’m fine with the idea that youth should not be too conformist and that change comes about from disagreement between generations – we’ve already seen this a lot on this blog before, and I’ve experienced it a lot in real life. It wasn’t that idea in particular that I’m protesting against. It’s just the idea that sex, drugs, and alcohol are the ONLY way to go against conformity and obedience, and Gordon’s statement that it’s a BAD thing that drug and alcohol use among youth is diminishing, that rather offends me. I’ve seen kids and teens and adults who abuse drugs and alcohol, and it’s never pretty. There’s plenty of ways to explore your identity and your opinions without resorting to substance use, including plenty of ways to do so that will become a positive force for your peers and your society.

Dissident

I don’t disagree with you here, Peace, but one of the reasons youths so often express rebellion against conformity in anti-social and excessive ways is because, as non-citizens, they are stripped of political influence and have little voice in the media (though this is slowly changing thanks to the information age of today). They are more or less entirely dependent on biased adult agencies to “advocate” for them, which often results in rules and enforcement of behavior that goes in the opposite extreme of what you protested here. Thankfully, the re-remergence of youth rights organizations since the late 1990s are giving youths a means of achieving a voice on their own terms, challenging ageist laws that restrict or deprive them of basic citizenship, and mostly importantly provides them means of rebellion that are positive and entirely legal.

Soft-ShoedBloodStainedBlairiteTotalitarianBabes

“[T]hat change comes about from disagreement between generations… ”
MORE leftist TRASH, surely? CHANGE comes about through relationships between the generations, like for example in Renaissance Italy where BOYLOVE thrived?
What is this feminist trash about conflict between generations?
Unless you mean PROGRESSIVE CHANGE, like the destruction both of the family and relationships generally between adults and young people, and the social-workerifemininazification of society?
The BEST way to ensure LIBERTY and INDIVIDUALITY is through the instrument of the Family. ALL anarchist experiments in schooling have FAILED. SO the same can be said of school systems. WHY have they destroyed same-sex schooling with masters who actually cared about instilling an understanding of the humanities and an appreciation of art and culture. WHY did they DESTROY attainment, for example, in the CLASSICAL LANGUAGES? WHY? BECAUSE they wanted to destroy true LIBERAL culture and introduce the SOFT-SHOED TOTALITARIAN bloodshed.
WHY are FEMINIST MURDERERS still at large? Yes, THIS is the question. This is the question.

Peace

My main beef with kids using drugs isn’t that they will necessarily become addicted, though the chance is higher in children than in adults. My main problem is that the War on Drugs has criminalized drug use and possession to the point that kids caught with drugs are in jeopardy of losing education opportunities and of creating a permanent criminal record that will lead to difficulty in obtaining a job later in life (I’d suggest checking out Blumenson’s study on this: http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/4cs/files/2008/11/blumenson-and-nilsenlawrev.pdf). This is especially true of minority youth who are more likely to not have great educational opportunities presented to them in the first place. Luckily there have been efforts in the past decade to fight against the war.
In addition, I’m concerned with kids using drugs as a self-destructive coping method and am less concerned with kids using drugs recreationally.

SickTODEATHoftheANTI-MALEAGENDA!

There was a truly disgusting story on the darknet concerning this boy who was one of those selected for the famous ColorClimax series of then legal pornography involving boys and girls published in Denmark, but who were actually American boys. He was introduced to drugs and by fifteen couldn’t even star in these films he was such an addict. Stories like this MAKE ME SICK and realise how the beauty and truth of boylove is INCOMPATIBLE with this modern, feminist SICK LGBT-run society! I also witnessed a boy who at fifteen was beautiful and had curly hair, the leader of a skater-gang, become a complete mess because of the paranoiac consequences of smoking marijuana.
Scientist James Watson has stated that one in ten will go mad after smoking the drug, and I quite agree.

Idem

Yes, you are probably right, and I was simply being hysterical, hating as I do ALL humanity but having a love for boys, by reacting that way. I can’t imagine there is any academic writing of any kind on the now down-the-memory-hole two decades of legal child pornography. Reports are that the overwhelming majority is loving, tasteful and in STRIKING CONTRAST to the hate-filled adult pornography of this our witless, cruel and nihilistic culture, itself a reaction to the disease of misandrist femiscum. DISGUSTINGLY it is only the femiscum-funded SICKENING rapists of children known as child protection who have access to this material, and that includes all this “sexting” output.

Dissident

I think you’re dead right, but history is still on the syllabus for many kids so I’m not quite sure why today’s youngsters lack a historical perspective more than older generations did at a similar age.
I think the reason for that is how history is taught in the authoritarian schooling system of today. No perspective on how events of the past, like the rise of Hitler, the political intricacies of the Vietnam War, moral panics throughout history, etc., are discussed. Rather, students are encouraged to simply read and memorize raw facts, names, and dates. Pop culture from every era, which has always provided a major reflection on what people in any given era were thinking and reacting to, is pretty much entirely ignored as irrelevant to the subject of history (i.e., it’s not considered “academic” enough). As in all other subjects taught in the schooling system, students are discouraged about thinking critically, and instead expected to focus on perspectives that are pre-chosen by the instructor. Add to that the boring drudge of the oppressive environment in which these lessons are provided, and where you’re only allowed to cover the facts and opinions provided by the instructor, and I think it can become quite clear why history taught in the contemporary schooling system provides nowhere near the full range of insights on the present that this fascinating subject can offer.

Dissident

Yes, the system was very much top-down, ultimately with the view that the grown-ups knew best and were definitely in charge of the curriculum and ethos of the school. There is plenty to be said for that, by the way, as long as there is mutual respect between young and old.
This I do not agree with, since wisdom does not necessarily come with age, something the older people in power have proven numerous times repeatedly. This also supports a conception of hierarchy, which in practice has rarely resulted in those at the top sharing mutual respect with those “beneath” them. Power tends to result in power trips, which causes the majority of those at the top to look upon those “beneath” them with contempt. Speaking for American schools alone, the teachers are among the most fervent bullies there, and even the minority of those who do show their students respect are doing so by choice, as it’s certainly not expected of them. The contrary isn’t true, however; students have to feign respect for teachers in almost all cases.
Since then, I gather, though I haven’t been in a school for decades and can only go by what I have read and heard, there is much more emphasis on independent learning these days, not less. Kids these days are encouraged to compare different primary historical source material, to look for bias in these sources, ask themselves why or why not they might be reliable and so on. That sounds good to me.
Just to clarify, what I meant by critical thinking is the skill or ability to think outside the proverbial box, and to question the “wisdom” of anything that does not sound right to you based on your own empirical observations, and above that, objective research. That type of thinking is most certainly not encouraged or taught in American schools. You are expected to respect the system, all authority figures, to consider all prevailing institutions as good, and to consider all teachers to be right or correct by default. If you believe otherwise, you are considered “weird” and told to “shut up” by both peers and teachers alike.
I am talking about the UK but pedagogic theory has no national boundaries and I would be surprised if the US was utterly different.
I cannot speak for the U.K. educational system, as I have not been through it. However, I do have many British friends who have. Based on my observations of them, and discussions with them, the parameters of debate are much less restricted there than in America, but I do not know many people in Europe who question the system on a truly deep level, or who argue for truly fundamental change, even if they are dirt poor and really being oppressed by the system.
What about you? Do you really know what is going on in US schools now, or are you simply judging by the kind of people the educational system is producing?
I’m quite active as a youth liberationist, and education is one of the most important aspects of my concern. I have heard numerous contemporary students speak on the subject, and have spoken to several myself on a political basis. These conversations and research has made it clear that critical and independent thinking is still greatly discouraged in the American schooling system, and in fact, the liberal arts in general are given short shrift in favor of math and topics that do not encourage those to think too critically or objectively on the system in which we live. For instance, writers, artists, and those who study the social sciences are considerably less respected and rewarded by the teaching staff than students who excel at mathematics and the physical sciences.
Admittedly, the results do not seem that great judging by the mendacious bullshit millions of people seem to be falling for in the present election campaign.
That was actually my point exactly 🙂

Christian

These conversations and research has made it clear that critical and independent thinking is still greatly discouraged in the American schooling system, and in fact, the liberal arts in general are given short shrift in favor of math and topics that do not encourage those to think too critically or objectively on the system in which we live. For instance, writers, artists, and those who study the social sciences are considerably less respected and rewarded by the teaching staff than students who excel at mathematics and the physical sciences.
Quite to the contrary, mathematics and science are fundamental in shaping a critical mind, since by definition they require a proof (logical in maths, empirical in science) of any assertion. They are also helpful in debunking pseudo-science and fake statistics that are daily fed to the uneducated masses in order to fool them. They help me all the time.

stephen6000

I think a lot depends on how the maths and science is taught. If it is just a matter of ‘Here the facts – learn them’, then there is not much critical thinking involved. I can imagine that this might be the case in the American scenario. In Britain also, there is a need for more teaching of critical thinking skills, including the understanding of mathematical – especially statistical – techniques and avoidance of common fallacies.

Dissident

Stephen basically expounded what I was trying to say. The manner in which math and science are taught in American schools is not done in a way that encourages critical thinking about the ethical aspects of the world we live in, and why we think and live the way we do. The type of critical thinking I was referring to is that which encourages people to think in such a way that enables them to ask questions about the system they live in, the ideology they are typically spoon fed, and the validity of the “conventional wisdom” they hear daily. These types of things are better taught by the liberal arts, as opposed to that which is simply designed to decipher mechanistic facts about the distance of the Sun from the Earth, or calculating how much rolling of the dice you must do with chromosomes for a certain likelihood of getting a hybrid or causing a recessive gene sequence to become active.
This is why, I believe, emotion and belief based on conformity tends to trump empirical observations, and why the majority of people do not question the way we live our lives and the system they are loyal anywhere near as much as they should. I further believe the education system is designed to stifle that type of thinking, so that every advance we do make thanks to math and science is put in the service of the existing world order and its handful of main beneficiaries.

TheEraOfSoft-ShoedTotalitarianism

TRUMP HAS WON! Was it a strike against the new soft-shoed totalitarianism of the identity politics left?
The beautiful Barron Trump by his father’s side, looking older than his ten years. Now they are attacking the “uneducated” voters. Actually, they were people with ACTUAL skills, who could possibly even create things, and not trained in the pseudoscience of pscyhology and sociology! Ha!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Christian

I think that the problem is not with the way history is taught at school, but rather with the present “youth culture” purely oriented towards “the latest”, fashion and modern technology. When I was 17, me and my friends were interested in surrealists and dadaists of the 1920’s, and even older authors like Alfred Jarry, and classical music, in particular Bach and Beethoven. When my sons were teenagers, they listened only to the latest pop music, they watched contemporary films, played with the latest arcade console, and did not show interest in “oldies”.

Libertine

I was also into Beethoven and also some Mozart and others (American that I can’t remember)! But before that, around nine of ten was into the modern pop of the day. Bananarama Venus was my first record, We also visited Sweden and Norway when my jailbait sister (14) was obsessed with AHA’s Morten Harket. I was about ten then, Remember staying in these cabins, and groups of kids would battle with sticks etc — That’s proper ‘free-range-kids!
As for music, these days I only enjoy mainly black metal, Like ‘Venom’, (resurrection), or the more mainstream Metallica — If its not Metal, its shit, Nobody has argued with me yet lol

Peace

As someone who was in high school less than five years ago and who routinely tutors kids, I have a bit of insight into this (in the US, at least).
For history, there tends to be a problem in that a lot of emphasis is placed on early history (either world, US, or state), and the teachers can’t catch up to modern times by the end of the school year – sometimes we were lucky to get to the end of WW2. This isn’t always due to the teacher, but maybe due to the school or state curriculum. Schools cutting creative programs and classes depends on region and school district, and especially depends on a school’s budget. If you’re especially concerned, perhaps you’d consider donating funds or items or volunteering at schools or after-school programs and care?
I personally don’t see anything wrong with a bunch of twenty-something years olds not being entirely aware of culture before they were born – either they’re perfectly content with the culture they have now or their parents and peers never discuss older culture and so they just don’t care about it. The people you work with may also be aware of and enjoy older culture, just not the culture you personally find significant.
In terms of how kids are “restricted” to their houses, this also depends on various factors including parents, location, etc. For example, if a kid lives on a busy and dangerous road, then there’s more imperative to make sure they play in a location that’s safer and in which they’re less likely to get hit by a car, leading to mom and dad watching over them while they play. Kids who live in neighborhoods with less traffic are then more likely to get the “go out and play with your friends” treatment – I personally remember going out for hours on end by myself or staying at my friend’s house until midnight before walking back to my house even during the “stranger danger” 2000s.

jim hunter

“Childhood innocence” can mean two quite different things: 1. Not under the influence of original sin and 2. asexual. The first notion of innocence was certainly in their interest. (They didn’t have to have their evil natures beaten out of them.) The second, not. So the statement that viewing children as “innocent” is a good thing for them can be a bit misleading.

Soft-shoedIdentityPoliticsTotalitarianismIsTheNewHitler

But the current view is that children ARE in a state of original sin: their NATURAL sexuality!
I think the idiot Pinker ( who has NEVER contributed to actual science, but is a public ‘intellectual’ : perhaps you were unaware of that, TOC? ) doesn’t understand the history of the notion of “innocence” in relation to children.

Soft-shoedIdentityPoliticsTotalitarianismIsTheNewHitler

Have you read or even heard of Edward S. Hermann’s absolutely DEVASTATING yet SUPPRESSED review of Pinker’s TRASH BOOK BAOON? Despite the FACT that he– Herman — is a HIGHLY respected intellectual who is ( quite oddly, I would have thought ) EMERITUS professor at the highly famous Wharton business school ( so not some guy on the left nobody knows ), who has written two EXTREMELY famous books with NOAM CHOMSKY, PINKER has not bothered to reply to it. Yet he’s replied to ciphers.
I guarantee you should read it, as it will not be a waste of YOUR time.
Sir, HIS conclusion is devastating:
“Steven Pinker’s The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined is a terrible book, both as a technical work of scholarship and as a moral tract and guide. But it is extremely well-attuned to the demands of U.S. and Western elites at the start of the 21st century, with its optimistic message that the “better angels” of their nature are taking charge, and its lament over the other peoples of the world, whose “inner demons” and cultural backwardness have prevented them from keeping-up.”
https://zcomm.org/zmagazine/stephen-pinker-on-the-triumph-of-angels-by-edward-herman/

Soft-shoedIdentityPoliticsTotalitarianismIsTheNewHitler
Libertine

Question is..Is this predominantly a ‘western’ problem, When people are on the breadline, There is no time for retrospective self-reflection.

feinmann0

Surely a poor diet must have a negative effect on the health and well-being of kids, this caused by consumption of fast-food meals served up in family households run by single mums who have neither the time nor the energy nor, maybe, even the skills to prepare healthy meals for their offspring. The total absence of a male adult in the majority of family homes must also take its toll on the mental health of a child.

110
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
Scroll to Top