Stifling but stimulating in sunny Cambridge

Summer is here at last in England after a long, cold Spring so where better to enjoy the belated sunshine than in the, err, stifling atmosphere of a conference centre with no air conditioning?
Well, call me a masochist but I had a great time last week at Classifying Sex: Debating DSM-5, a two-day conference at Cambridge University. DSM, for the uninitiated, is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders published by the American Psychiatric Association, routinely dubbed the bible of psychiatry, a description often criticised but one which captures the intensity of the religious warfare its various versions and interpretations provoke worldwide, not just in the United States. A quasi-religious aspect is evident, too, not just in the ferocity of debate but also in its labyrinthine theology: grasping what is at stake in all the rhetorical cut and thrust demands close attention to decades of scriptural exegesis since the first edition in 1952 up until the fifth edition launched in May this year. Hence the conference: nothing less than days of lectures from experts will suffice to get one’s head around it.
Speaking of mental disorders, the sanest response might be, why bother? Don’t the shrinks give minor-attracted people a tough enough time as it is, without breaking our heads trying to unravel their precise modes of oppression? Possibly, but that would be to miss an important point: psychiatry is not monolithic; not every oppressive initiative succeeds. A clear example of this is the defeat of the DSM-5 Paraphilias Subworkgroup’s proposal to include hebephilia as a mental disorder, an outcome with potentially huge implications for the lives of sex offenders in the U.S. diagnosed with hebephilia[i]. It could mean the difference between being released at the end of a sentence on the one hand and being confined in a “civil commitment” gulag on the other, with little prospect of ever being freed. The latter fate has increasingly been the desperate lot of those offenders designated paedophiles in recent times: they are supposed to stay behind bars until treatment renders them “safe”, with the Catch 22 that no current treatment can guarantee they will not reoffend, so they cannot get out.
A separate diagnosis along similar lines for hebephiles i.e. those preferentially attracted to early adolescents, as opposed to paedophiles with a pre-pubertal preference, would have drawn in a substantial proportion of the adult population and would have had the strange effect in the case of man-girl and woman-boy love of calling it a mental disorder to be preferentially attracted to a reproductively viable (after menarche or semenarche) early adolescent partner of the opposite sex. It is one thing to criminalise behaviours deemed socially undesirable, but quite another to say a person whose sexual desires are consistent with nature’s imperative to go forth and multiply is mentally disordered. Surely only an idiot would make such a proposal?
Wrong! Try genius instead. Ray Blanchard, perhaps best known for his brilliant and well supported theory that male sexual orientation is affected by fraternal birth order, was described at the conference by another DSM big cheese as “the smartest guy I know”. And one of Blanchard’s smart answers is that it may be true that a high proportion of men (OK, let’s say nearly all of them) find freshly nubile girls a turn-on (and the remainder get hot for young boys!) but the preference, for most, is a more fully mature physique: the truly curvaceous adult female form, with big breasts and butts, is what really does it for them, or the filled-out, muscular frame of a grown man. By contrast, those men whose preference is for pubescent girls (typically aged 11-14) are unlikely to have much reproductive success compared to those whose preference includes women in their twenties and beyond. Therefore, so the reasoning goes, the hebophile’s preference for 11-14 year olds is not what nature intended and accordingly in biological terms it points to a mental disorder.
Coming from Blanchard, of all people, the audacity of this argument is staggering. He is gay! And he has the nerve to pass judgment on people’s mental health based not only on whether their sexual preferences are reproductively viable but whether they are reproductively maximal! On that basis homosexuality should never have ceased to be classified as a mental disorder, but I haven’t seen him campaigning to have gayness restored to the DSM as a psychiatric condition! Nor should this happen: with overpopulation a huge threat these days, not extinction, it makes little sense to define sexual health in crudely reproductive terms, as several speakers at Cambridge noted.
To many minor-attracted people it seems as though all of Blanchard’s research on minor-attraction is hell-bent on dehumanising  paedophiles and hebephiles, making us seem an inferior sub-species: according to his work we are less intelligent, shorter, and are more likely to have suffered head injuries than others.  His research could in theory be used to argue for social policies aimed at helping the minor-attracted overcome any such difficulties if they really exist. But as philosopher of science Patrick Singy eloquently argued in a presentation at Cambridge titled Danger and difference: the stakes of hebephilia, the strategy may be rather less worthy.
Not Blanchard’s personal strategy that is. His motives may be entirely benign as an individual. No, what Singy had discerned is, rather, an unconscious strategy adopted by modern society.  In the liberal democracies that have developed from the 19th century onwards, Singy points out, there is a tension between security and liberty: creating a safe society for the majority can only be achieved by restricting the rights and freedoms of those who present a threat. This cannot be done without a bad conscience by liberally-minded policy makers unless they can first dehumanize offenders, emphasizing their supposedly radical difference from normal people in every possible way: they must be called inferior, or monsters or predators (as in America’s “sexually violent predator” laws), which then enables them (us) to be treated like animals. It is a strategy which preserves as much liberty as possible for the majority by according a radically different, much lower, status, to just a few – with the language of mental disorder coming in very handy for the purpose.
[Added 19 July: The significance in a liberal democracy of claiming supposedly animalistic “predators” are mentally ill is that the individuals thus labelled can be oppressed in ways which superficially appear to be humane: in theory, they are held in civil confinement not as punishment but so they may be treated. The Nazis rhetorically dehumanized their victims before committing acts of genocide, but mass exterminations would obviously be inconsistent with liberal democracy. Such democracies pride themselves on being tolerant and respectful of diversity as far as possible; when there are exceptions, as with “predators” who supposedly must be caged like animals to protect society, the conscience and ethos of liberalism are salved thanks to the availability of medical rather than penal language.]      
Blanchard, bless him, may not be in love with hebephiles but he does appear to adore hebephilia as a theoretical construct and has done elegant work on the relationship (in terms of preferential and lesser levels of attraction) between paedophilia, hebephilia and teleiophilia (attraction to adults). Perhaps that is why, as chair of the Paraphilias Subworkgroup, he fought a long, bitter, and ultimately losing battle for hebephilia to take its place in DSM: victory would have given hebephilia a higher profile and provided DSM with a diagnosis underpinned by a significant element of scientific research.
Indeed, it is precisely the lack of good research behind most of the DSM’s diagnoses that has been a major and growing cause of embarrassment to the APA and the profession of psychiatry in recent years: the latest edition runs to around a thousand pages, but like earlier efforts it has been criticized as just a rag-bag of symptoms to which labels of often highly dubious medical validity have been attached, with too little attention paid to the underlying nature and causes of the conditions described. As several conference speakers pointed out, what gets labeled as sexually pathological is pretty much all down to politics of one sort or another: if it is not the moralists (who traditionally valorize reproductive sex and pathologize everything else) who are calling the tune, it is insurance companies who need diagnoses in support of legal claims, or big pharma, whose pill-peddling also needs a range of named, medically approved,  dysfunctions, diseases and disorders which they can claim their drugs address, thereby justifying an artificially generated market among  “the worried well”.
The radical psychiatrist Thomas Szasz, who died last year, looms large behind all this. His books The Myth of Mental Illness (1960) and The Manufacture of Madness (1970) argued that mental illnesses are not real in the sense that cancers are real: there are no objective methods for detecting the presence or absence of mental disease. That may change, as medicine becomes more sophisticated. A straw in the wind to this effect came in April, just before the launch of DSM-5, when the American National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) announced that in future it would be re-orienting its research away from DSM categories. The institute’s director, Thomas Insel, issued a statement titled Transforming Diagnosis. NIMH, he said, “has launched the Research Domain Criteria (RDoC) project to transform diagnosis by incorporating genetics, imaging, cognitive science, and other levels of information to lay the foundation for a new classification system.”
Remarkably, unless I was nodding off in the sweltering heat and missed it, not a single word was said in Cambridge about this landmark development. Not that the switched-on, hi-tech new approach by NIMH will take the politics out of sexual psychiatry: it might even give our oppressors more opportunities to blind us with science; but this futuristic ambition to ground mental health diagnosis more deeply in biology (without, one hopes, harking back to reproductive fitness) should at least offer scope for the rational interrogation of any assertions that may be made.
Back to Singy. He contended in his platform speech that whether hebephilia is a mental disorder or not is completely irrelevant to society’s concern about it. What really matters is whether it is dangerous and, if so, how such danger can be assessed reliably. I think he is right, and the same applies to paedophilia. Several speakers from the floor, asking questions, appeared to conflate the harm/danger issue, which at least in theory could be measured objectively, with consent i.e. non-consensual sex is ipso facto harmful. Again, I agree, but the issue of harm is then prejudged by the legalistic fiction that those below a certain age cannot consent. After I pointed out this confusing conflation in a question of my own, Singy approached me in the lunch break for further discussion. I found it an interesting exchange, so I might come back to that and further Cambridge stuff in another post.


[i] It has been claimed that a diagnosis of hebephilia would not in practice necessarily have led to more sex offenders being snared in civil commitment, because it has long been possible to diagnose “Paraphilia NOS” (Not Otherwise Specified), a catch-all category, as an alternative. The NOS diagnosis, which also covers necrophilia and zoophilia, has been used to help label an offender as a “sexual violent predator” in the U.S., thereby providing the legal justification for civil commitment. However, this has only ever been applicable in certain cases, at least in theory, because “the essential features of a paraphilia are recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors generally involving nonhuman objects, the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one’s partner, or children or other nonconsenting persons…” (Kafka, 2010). Absent any evidence that the paraphilic (or “perverted”, as would once have been said) offender had any desire to hurt or humiliate a young partner, such a diagnosis would appear to be unjustified. In other words the NOS diagnosis should not ensnare the hebephile who has sex with a willing young partner (statutory rape) but a diagnosis of hebephilia would. However (I warned you this stuff gets complicated!), a simple but bogus (i.e. purely legalistic) diagnosis of “paraphilia nonconsent” has been used frequently in the American courts in support of civil commitment (Frances, 2011).
Frances A, First MB, Paraphilia NOS, nonconsent: not ready for the courtroom, J Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 39(4):555-61 (2011)
Kafka MP, The DSM diagnostic criteria for paraphilia not otherwise specified, Arch Sex Behav. 39(2):373-6 (2010)
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Cyril

“Psychiatric diagnosis and treatment in the 21st century: paradigm shifts or power shifts?”:

Cyril

Vaughan Bell, “Is normality an illusion?”, The Lancet, Volume 400, Issue 10354, 2022, Pages 723-724, ISSN 0140-6736, https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(22)01646-4.(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673622016464)

Dianna

Nature is designed very specifically for very basic reasons. The family unit is completely natural, while what you contend as natural is not. When you lose sight of a child’s innocence, you lose sight for humanity. Parents who protect their children, find the reason to have dreams and hopes for them in the future. The future you design is service to self without consideration of the children. Prepubesent girls who become pregnant generally die giving birth as their bodies are not matured. This is nature speaking. So prepubescent attraction is unnatural as it destroys a vital component of the natural state. Live by example, lest you reap the consequence. Cause and effect.Take a child’s innocence and reap their wrath, for indeed they will return on you. Seek destruction in the young, and you define your own fate. Sickness unchecked devours the whole. Control is the factor here. Control and honor for the children of this world, for they Are your future leaders. Service to others, not blind service to self. Think of the children, and “Then” return to the debate, consider the other side, family members and children involved in your absorptions, include them in your debate. For a one-sided debate on a two-sided equation will bring you more harm than good. The family unit is the core of our humanity.
I can speak from experience.

common sense

Wow.. what a load of crap. Sex play is also part of nature, bonobos do that all the time, and we are very similar to them. Not all sexual interaction is aimed at reproduction. Besides that, strong sexual attraction can refer not only to present fertility but also to potential fertility in the future. So, it’s not “unnatural” to want to reproduce with a young attractive girl, even if she is not at peak fertility.
There is also the sociological aspect of it. How you think that someone can develop their own sexual sense if they don’t play with their friends, and don’t share experience with their community. This process is natural and desirable. This is nature speaking.
If you want to prevent risk outcomes such as prepubescent pregnancy, the best way is to ensure that everyone, no matter the age, receive information about contraceptives and can have easy access to them. This can also be made about DST prevention with vaccines and access to information. But the problem is that conservatives like you are constantly pushing against this type of actions, and this actually increases the chances of underage pregnancy and bad outcomes.
We could afford to make that but instead we choose fear and draconian punishments. A lot of cheap rhetoric in your post, but very little brain power.

[…] O’Farrell, a child sex offender and campaigner for the legalisation of sex with children, who wrote on his blog that the conference had been “Wonderful”. “It was a rare few days […]

A.

Thanks. I hadn’t read the Blanchard study (I found the full version here: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-010-9675-3/fulltext.html). It is indeed very persuasive. I remember somebody on BoyChat suggesting that 12 is a favourite age in surveys not so much for itself as because it represents the intersection of those who like mainly prepubescents with those who like pubescents. Because of the massive popularity of the 10-14 age range among boy-lovers, I still think there is probably a large group who like late prepubescence and early pubescence about equally. Based on the Blanchard, though, I’d also have to agree that many of those 10-14 likers can be split into one of two subgroups: those who lean strongly towards 10-12 and those who lean strongly towards 12-14.
Blanchard explains in the full article where he got all these men for the study:
“The sources of the clinical referrals included parole and probation officers, prisons, defense lawyers, various institutions (ranging from group homes for mentally retarded persons to regulatory bodies for health or educational professionals), and physicians in private practice. As would be expected from the preponderance of criminal justice sources, the majority of patients had one or more sexual offenses against children, adults, or both. Men who had no involvement with the criminal justice system and who initiated referrals through their physicians included patients who were unsure about their sexual orientation, patients concerned about hypersexuality or ‘sex addiction’, patients experiencing difficulties because of their excessive use of telephone sex lines or massage parlors, clinically obsessional patients with intrusive thoughts about unacceptable sexual behavior, and patients with paraphilic behaviors like masochism, fetishism, and transvestism.”
I tend to be (perhaps over-) sceptical of studies relying heavily on data from criminal and clinically referred groups, but the data which doesn’t come from such studies tends to come from, well, surveys on paedophile message boards, which may of course not be all that reliable. Still, in this case I don’t see any particular way in which the source of the study subjects could have have biased the results too much. Maybe it could have, though.
Comparing phallometric data with paedophile-message-board data, or Frits Bernard’s survey data, may also be comparing apples and oranges. Rind and Yuill note in the study I linked above,
“In Blanchard et al.’s (2009) own data, even while heterosexual hebephiles showed weak penile response to fully mature women, they did verbally report a sizable degree of attraction to them.
“In Blanchard et al.’s (2009) Fig.1, heterosexual hebephiles’ (level 2) verbal attraction reports were about 5 to girls aged 12-14 and 4 to females aged 17+ on a scale from 1 to 5, which translates as a response to fully mature women at 75% strength of response to pubertal girls, which is non-trivial.”
So, it’s possible that many people will say, truthfully, that they are attracted to a wide age-range, but have strong penile responses only to photos of a particular small sub-group of that age range. Perhaps sexual attraction to people in static images tends to be much ‘pickier’ than sexual attraction to people in real life, who move, speak, laugh and all the rest of it.
As to whether or not this helps us think more clearly about sexual desire: I would say yes, if we’re careful. If the idea of hebephilia becomes more widely accepted, if the word becomes more commonly used, we may find people using puberty as an absolute cut-off point, and arguing that if you are attracted to people above a certain fairly arbitrary age-line, it’s adaptive and so OK (though maybe not OK to act on), whereas if you like prepubescents, well, it’s not adaptive, you’re sick. Trying to make moral arguments or mental health arguments from data like these is in my view a complete non-starter.
A side-note: I’m not sure about Rind and Yuill’s argument that choosing a wife just before she begins to ovulate is adaptive because it means you get the most reproductive years out of her. Thinking in this field does, well, evolve rather rapidly, so I may be behind the times, but I had understood that the current received wisdom is that romantic love is usually intense but fleeting because we evolved for ‘serial monogamy’: we evolved to pair-bond with a series of people, more or less freely and for only a few years at a time, which is long enough to conceive, carry and bear a child and then raise the child to relative independence. Of course, child number two might be conceived while child number one was being raised to relative independence, which might have given Dad an incentive to stick around some more, but in a small hunter-gatherer band the nuclear family is not your only source of support: takes a village, and all that. Also, there are still plenty of societies in which descent is matrilineal and the most important males in children’s lives are not their fathers but their maternal uncles. Anyway, my understanding had been that marriage in which a young girl was signed over to a husband as his lifelong property was a rather later development, late enough that picking out a just-pubescent wife is eminently practical in some societies, but not especially adaptive, not ingrained into human nature. I’d be interested to read arguments about the adaptiveness of serial monogamy versus life-long monogamy or, more likely, life-long polygyny.

A.

I’m not convinced that dividing paedophiles from hebephiles makes all that much sense. Sure, there are clear cases of one or the other: Lewis Carroll, who immortalised his Alice at “seven and a half exactly”, vs Elvis Presley, who had a series of playful and cuddly, but apparently not genitally sexual, friendships with girls aged around fourteen. Sure, a lot of paedophiles find the appearance of body hair a complete turn-off. But for others it only marks the beginning of the end, not the end itself: merely the start of a gradual tailing-off of attraction. Others still may not be fazed by it at all. But Frits Bernard found years ago in Paedophilia: A Factual Report that for a minority of paedophiles the start of puberty ends the sexual attractiveness of the child, and for another minority the start of puberty kicks off the sexual attractiveness of the child, but for most, their interest begins before puberty and extends well into it. Contrary to some other studies, Bernard’s found that this was true of girl-lovers as well as boy-lovers.
So, most people currently called paedophiles or hebephiles would better be called paedohebephiles. You could decide to plump for one label or the other depending on the centre-point of the interest, but this too can be hard to categorise. When polled on BoyChat, very many boy-lovers, at least a plurality if not an outright small majority, say that their favourite age for a boy is twelve. Girl-lovers’ “AOAs” are more all over the map, but eleven is definitely a favourite age: “Eleven is heaven” goes a popular GL saying. For the average twelve-year-old boy and eleven-year-old girl, puberty is getting underway but has not yet caused major changes to the physique. Furthermore, when studies were done on the subject forty or so years ago, boy-lovers, such as the ones surveyed for The Child-Lovers tended to plump for thirteen as their favourite age. The recent drop to twelve mirrors the recent drop in the age of onset of puberty. It really is that “just on the cusp” point that attracts a lot of paedophiles. So, are they paedophiles, or are they hebephiles?
On the reproductive viability of hebephilia: it appears that peak fertility for women occurs surprisingly late, in the early and middle twenties. [TOC adds: Well, I guess it could vary from one population to another but one authoritative source goes for early twenties: “A woman’s peak fertility occurs in her early 20s. After age 35 (and especially 40), the chance that a woman can get pregnant drops considerably. The age when fertility starts to decline is different from woman to woman.” – U.S. National Library of Medicine.] This is surprising, given the great majority of men’s undeniable liking for teenagers. In How the Mind Works, Steven Pinker mentions a tribe, the name of which escapes me, whose men consider girls “perfectly ripe” when they are aged fifteen through seventeen. It’s probably fair to say that for the average heterosexual guy, peak female beauty starts at roughly fifteen and begins to decline after roughly twenty-three – just approximate numbers there, but approximately right, I think. Why, then, is peak female fertility so late? Maybe to compensate for all the other things that historically accompanied greater age, back in the Pleistocene when lifespans were much shorter – greater chances of disease, weakness, disablement, death. Maybe a liking for teenage girls is adaptive because despite their slightly lower fertility even in the later teens, they were, historically, likely to be in better shape overall than twentysomethings. If the mother’s a teenager, there is an increased chance of perinatal death of the baby, low birth weight, etc., but perhaps that is only really apparent in our, by comparison, robustly healthy epoch: perhaps all of that was outweighed in the Pleistocene by the then-greater risks facing a mother in her twenties and her baby.
Bruce Rind and Richard Yuill suggest that liking teenage girls may have more to do with snagging a wife while she has a lot of reproductive years left in her:
“The foregoing considerations suggest a range of female ages, which most typically are capable of producing adaptive attraction responses in mature males with respect to reproduction. This range extends from puberty, when reproductive value is maximal, into the 20s, when fertility is greatest, and beyond while fertility lasts. Within this range, male preferences may typically peak, for example, at female ages of 17 or 18, a compromise of highest reproductive value (ages 12 or 13) and fertility (ages 22 or 23) (cf. Williams, 1975). Depending on local social and cultural conditions, this peak may be shifted (i.e., recalibrated) to younger or older female ages (Buss, 1989).
“Moreover, among individual males, given natural variation in biological traits, this peak will also vary within any population, such that some males will be inclined toward females at the lower end of the adaptive age range. That is, hebephilic preference (i.e., hebephilia) is an expectable distributional variant.”

Kate

Thanks for these interesting posts about Cambridge. I hope you’ll share more details.
Have you seen Bruce Rind’s response to Blanchard’s claim that hebephilia is maladaptive? Apparently, Blanchard and others completely fudged the anthropological data.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-013-0132-y

Kit Marlowe

I can’t really even pretend that I followed half of that. But should you feel tempted to get outside into the sunshine, there’s plenty to do in Cambridge: a city with a fine boylove heritage (Houseman, Byron, and my own namesake of course) among other things. It’s out of term now I imagine, but I recommend evensong at the Trinity College chapel, where Lord Byron fell in love with the choirboy John Edleston, to whom he wrote the lines:
There be none of Beauty’s daughters
With a magic like thee;
And like music on the waters
Is thy sweet voice to me:
When, as if its sound were causing
The charmed ocean’s pausing,
The waves lie still and gleaming,
And the lull’d winds seem dreaming:
And the midnight moon is weaving
Her bright chain o’er the deep,
Whose breast is gently heaving
As an infant’s asleep:
So the spirit bows before thee
To listen and adore thee;
With a full but soft emotion,
Like the swell of summer’s ocean.

jim hunter

Tom
You actually read what I write, think about it, and respond with rational thoughts. I’m not used to this. It’s not fair. I should be warned. To an extent, you are right. I was careless in my use of terms. My excuse is that it is hard to be exact in complex matters when one has to speak in sound bites. And yet we don’t want people to ramble on endlessly, so mostly I agree with your emphasis on brevity.
My basic philosophical position is not materialism but panpsychism. I am in a minority here, so I leave that alone. But that does influence my take on things.
How can I briefly, but accurately, state what I am trying to say? It has to do with a certain dishonest use of words which enables researchers to pretend to be speaking within the boundaries of science when in fact they are talking politics. I see six categories of words that are at issue. First, we have words that speak of what is biologically “adaptive” or “maladaptive.” What, in short, enables a species to survive. Secondly we have words that speak of what is “healthy” or “unhealthy.” Here we have medical terminology. Third, we have words that speak of what is “normal” or “abnormal.” These words are perhaps the most problematic of all, unless we simply mean what this or that culture establishes as “normative” in which case it is a sociological term – not either a biological one nor an ethical one. Forth we have words that define what is ethical or unethical. Fifth, we have psychological terms which have to do with what people desire, and how they adjust their desires to the requirements of specific cultures. Sixth we have legal terms – which simply refer to what is against the law (which may or may not have anything to do with either ethics or what is adaptive for the species). In practice certain words can cut across these categories, leading to a lot of murky thinking. The three terms that I know of that are the most notorious for this kind of murkiness are “normal” “abuse” and “consent.”
I believe, in effect, that people like Blanchard depend on the ambiguity of terms to move in an unacceptable manner from biological frames of reference to sociological, medical and ethical ones. The most egregious example of this in social research is the notion of “child sexual abuse.” That is clearly a political and ethical term that is trying to pass as a scientific one. Also we have the feminist assertion that “children cannot consent” which deliberately confuses legal, ethical and psychological frames of reference. The suggestion by Singy that we simply talk about what is “harmful” or “not harmful” is a breath of fresh air. If we can agree on what we mean by “harm” a coherent discussion becomes possible.

willistina556
willistina556

3 BIG words lost*.
By decades ongoing all Anglo Insular Little Psycho-lonial Fascists. Seeking WORLD Rule by endless Walls Of Waffle. Producing heat-not-light in their dark woods poison playpen; obscured by er, mere trees ?
*W-O-R-L-D HEALTH ORGANISATION..
Abandon Hope All Ye Goodly Anglos Including Academoidz. Leave on a jet plane, or just plain leave. 
Then P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L-L-Y Stand Up and FIGHT For The Nuclear Option, From Which Anglo Fascists Can Never Recover! 
________________________________

jedson303

What nature intended?!? I didn’t think that nature intended anything. Unless I am misreading it, all current forms of Darwinian theory see evolution as a mechanical outcome of chance (random mutation) and natural selection. To build any ethics out of this is absurd. When one begins with a materialism of this sort, ethics must be tacked on as an afterthought. It must come from somewhere else. Of course sociobiologist tend to speak out of both sides of their mouths. Sometimes they seem to be saying that genes are trying to do replicate themselves, but strictly speaking ?selfish genes? aren’t selfish at all. They just are. Nor do they ?try? to do anything. They are just what happened. Clearly, the sort of ethics Blanchard talks of doesn’t come from science. It is absurd in the extreme to contend that only behaviors that increase the chances of my genes being passed on are ?normal? or ethical. His ethics and notions of what is ?normal? are smuggled in from society ? and are obviously popular because they conform to the tenets of the dictators of discourse ? those who say what can and cannot be said or even discussed.
Singy’s take on the matter was sensible and interesting ? and probably accurate.
Here is the final word on all DSM versions
*Ode to DSM *
The DSM is a kind of analysis
Which closely resembles renal dialysis:
If your kidneys don’t work to clean your being
Then here is a machine to do your peeing;
If your reason has lost its internal linking,
Then here is a book that will do your thinking.
We wonder if we should mechanically sort
When some are tall and others are short,
But if you don’t fit our Procrustean bed,
Our doctors can lop off part your head.
With the DSM book they’ll implant a new brain —
And never again will you be insane.
*******
But all that said, yes it does make a difference and is worth struggling with.
jim

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