Clearing up the conceptual confusion

INTRODUCTION

Part 1 of this two-part blog looked at how woke identity politics, especially on trans issues, may have cost Kamala Harris the US presidential election. Protestations to the contrary have since appeared in the comments, notably along the lines “It was the economy, stupid” (albeit phrased far more politely!). However, even if these claims were true (which is debatable), my main point – that trans extremists have been their own worst enemies – appears to have won broad acceptance here, based on a range of evidence. From this starting point, Part 2 will examine the conceptual muddle that enabled so many activist “transgressions” to go unchecked before the bubble burst. To the limited but significant extent that our influence from a MAP perspective allows, the intention is to strengthen the trans cause, not to trash it. The aim today will be to bring some clarity to a tangle of convoluted issues, with a special focus on the language and concepts involved. The extent to which any newfound clarity will help us sharpen our focus on future possibilities, such as the potential for a youth-MAP-trans alliance, will hopefully emerge in subsequent debate.

Please be aware that in order to untangle these exceptionally confusing issues clearly, I have found it necessary to spell out my thinking rather fully, so this blog has ended up much longer than usual and it requires careful reading. Accordingly, it will be best if you make yourself comfortable and take your time. No need to rush through it all in one go.  

GENDER IS NON-BINARY

Part 1 included a provocative assertion that the queer strategy of challenging entrenched normative language might have a major downside. The disruption of dubious binary concepts including gender, which is about much more than just male and female, has its uses, I wrote, “but it is also capable of marooning us in a meaningless verbal morass, leaving us vulnerable to stupid policy making that harms kids.”

The steep rise in use of the word “gender” after being taken up by feminists, especially since the 1970s, is well captured in this graph generated by Google’s Ngram tool, which shows the increasing use of the word in books from 1900 to 2020.

Let’s explore how this happens, starting with the relatively coherent, intellectually sustainable idea that gender is a spectrum, with male and female at its extremities and many different possibilities of gender identity and expression in between. Even though 99% of the world’s population identify as male or female, rather than non-binary, the spectrum (or perhaps bi-modal distribution) concept is valid – and becoming increasingly important given that those identifying as non-binary (including transgender, gender-fluid, etc.) shoots up from 1% to 4% among Gen Z respondents to the LGBT+ Pride Global Survey of gender ID and sexual orientation.

So far, so good. Gender, as understood in this context, is a concept that refers to the immensely rich variety of ways in which we humans behave and think about ourselves. Following the usefully disruptive work of earlier generations of queer theorists, it has become possible to think outside the two big gender boxes. That is how, after a lifetime of self-declared confusion, the writer Quentin Crisp found himself finally liberated from being pigeon-holed in his own mind as a “homosexual” male when he discovered in his eighties that he was non-binary, and transgender. Gender, in other words, is a social concept of flexible application, not a fixed category or “natural kind”.

SEX IS BINARY

The trouble starts when queer theory is misapplied to undermine non-social concepts that do constitute natural kinds, of which the prime example we need to examine is the binary, fixed, naturally unalterable distinction between male and female. Messing about with these terms can get us into deep water, as happened a few years ago to influential feminist biologist Anne Fausto-Sterling. She got a bit carried away when she distinguished no fewer than five different sexes (male, female, merm, ferm, and herm). After being put on the spot by numerous scholars, she later recanted, saying her earlier work had been a provocation, offered “tongue in cheek”.

If we delve into the relevant biology, we can easily see why Fausto-Sterling had failed to curb her enthusiasm for nature’s queerness, because there is no shortage of it. As I noted in a blog on “the intersex brain” some years ago:

There are even mosaic situations in which the same individual possesses both XX (female) and XY (male) cell types. Bizarrely, as reproduction expert Milton Diamond puts it “a person might have an arm considered male because its cells are all XY while the same person’s leg might be considered female because its cells are all XX”.

More familiar, albeit rare, are so-called “intersex” conditions that result in genital ambiguity at birth. These cases can make it difficult to tell at first glance whether a baby is male or female, but that does not mean they are somewhere in between. They are always either one sex or the other.

In all anisogametic sexually reproducing species reproduction occurs by combining a large gamete (the ovum, or female egg) with a small gamete (male sperm). In mammals, each individual produces only one kind of gamete. Whether a mammal embryo develops into a male or a female is determined by a pair of sex chromosomes: XX for females, XY for males. Sex in all animals is defined by gamete size; sex in all mammals is determined by sex chromosomes; and there are two and only two sexes: male and female. This applies even when there are “intersex” chromosomal variations, such as Klinefelter syndrome, where a male has an extra X chromosome (XXY).

Now, it might seem arcane and unnecessary to dwell on microscopic stuff when our real concern is what decisions kids can make about their bodies as they are growing up, by which time all sorts of truly queer, non-binary differences in individual development will have affected us, possibly including unusual hormonal goings on in the womb before we were born, which may make us more masculine or less so. Everything we experience in childhood, from the influence of our parents and peers to what we eat, plays a part in our individuality, including our experiences and understandings of gender and sex. These things make us all rather quirky. As the old saying goes, “There’s nowt so queer as folk”.

But please understand that the point of dwelling on gametes is that the language of male and female is the issue right now; not, for the moment, our personal development and choices. The language we use is fundamental to our ability to think clearly, and without clarity we will run into disaster, as we shall see below.

ONE BECOMES A WOMAN

Note that the terms male and female apply to all the sexually reproducing species, be they reptiles, birds, fish, whatever, from the tiny wasp Dicopomorpha echmepterygis to the gigantic blue whale. They represent natural kinds, which hold good throughout nature. In order to think clearly about sex, we need to hold onto these terms and their clear meaning. The terms man and woman, however, apply only to our own species. To the extent that we see them as matched in lock step with male and female, as per the traditional dictionary definitions (man: adult human male; woman: adult human female) we might think these also represent natural kinds.

But this is not the case. The terms man and woman reflect the highly individual lives we have experienced when growing up, including our genderings. As Simone de Beauvoir famously said, “One is not born, but becomes a woman”. What is meant by womanhood, what is expected of a woman, what she thinks it would be feminine to wear, whether she thinks it appropriate to be ambitious in a career, or better to devote herself to home and family, are aspects of this womanly “becoming”. Nevertheless, although the word woman has a strong social element and is not a natural kind, it also has a fundamental natural component. All women are born female.

The question “What is a woman?” featured strongly in a fascinating debate between philosophy podcaster Stephen Woodford and biologist Colin Wright. This screenshot from the podcast shows their sharply contrasting definitions of “man” and “woman”. Wright’s definitions are conventional. Strikingly, Woodford has exactly the same definition for both “man” and “woman”, based on a social construction approach. Notice that he did not even feel it necessary to say “An adult person”, rather than “Someone”.

J.K. Rowling has decided we need to be reminded of this. On Mother’s Day last year, she tweeted: “Happy Birthing Parent Day to all whose large gametes were fertilised resulting in small humans whose sex was assigned by doctors making mostly lucky guesses.”

Unambiguously, this is a mocking attack on inclusive transgender language, as is her most famous earlier tweet: “‘People who menstruate’,” she wrote in 2020. “I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?”

Witty, but cruel and transphobic, some would say. On the contrary, in this case we really do need to be cruel – or at least blunt – to be kind, and it is not transphobic to do so given that we all benefit (including transgender people) from sticking to clear language. Without it there can be no clear policy grounded in clear evidence and its clear interpretation. Am I making myself clear?

SEX ASSIGNED AT BIRTH

Still with me? Still clear? Then it is time to start identifying the harm to which the misguided use of inclusive language can lead, beginning with “sex assigned at birth”. As philosopher Alex Byrne and biologist Carole K. Hooven have pointed out, women (biological ones, not trans ones) are nearly twice as likely as men to experience harmful side effects from drugs, a problem that may be ameliorated by reducing drug doses for females. Males, on the other hand, are more likely to die from Covid-19 and cancer, and they too may need sex-specific treatment. For this reason, public health policy messages are best directed clearly at men and women (or boys and girls), without using language likely to confuse ordinary people outside the woke elites who obsess over these things.

You think they don’t get confused? Think again. Consider what another philosopher, Elizabeth Barnes, has said on the matter, not because of her day job but because she has Parkinson’s, although men are much more likely to get it than women, and they need different advice because, for them, the condition has differences in prevalence, symptoms, and disease trajectory. She writes:

The use of language like “assigned male at birth” is, in this context, at best misleading. If you’re male, you’re not more likely to get Parkinson’s because of a decision a doctor made after looking at your genitalia. You’re more likely to get Parkinson’s because of differences between male and female biology – differences we don’t yet fully understand, and which crucially need more (not less) attention.

She readily admits that as a philosophy professor she has no difficulty with gender inclusive terms, or their abbreviations, such as “AMAB” and “AFAB”. However, she realised that it was a very different matter when she was consulted by a less well-educated family member seeking her advice after he contracted Parkinson’s. She continued:

My family member… is among the group most likely to get Parkinson’s – an older white man without a college education from the rural south or Midwest (an area of prevalence sometimes called “the Parkinson’s belt”) who has a background working in and around agriculture. This group is also, of course, a group that has seen a sharp increase in distrust of institutions, especially healthcare institutions. And it’s a group especially likely to be unfamiliar with – and very skeptical about – something like describing Parkinson’s disease as more common “in people assigned male at birth (AMAB)”.

This old white guy, in other words, is exactly in the demographic who have been getting mightily pissed off with wokery and voting for Trump as a result. Such people are not the enemy. They are not “the Right”. Like trans kids, they are simply folks with health care needs that need to be addressed with careful clarity.

TRAPPED IN THE WRONG BODY

Speaking of which, let’s get back to those kids and their needs. They too are better served by clear language than by gobbledygook. We know that trans kids have a deep feeling that their minds and souls are of the opposite sex to that of their bodies. But that would mean nothing unless there really were two sexes, one the opposite of the other. It is far more honest to tell them so, and far more conducive to them working out their best health choices, if they are given clear, accurate information rather than indulged in fantasies such as the feminine essence narrative.

There can be no “essence” of femininity. It is literally impossible. Why? Because gender norms greatly vary from one culture to another, from dress codes to career choices. Because gender is a social construction, there is nothing in it that cannot potentially be changed. Therefore, no element of gender expression is indispensable, or – same thing – essential.

This is not to deny that “trapped in the wrong body” feelings can be very real and important. But it makes sense to look for an explanation in reproductive and developmental biology i.e. in factors such as in utero masculinisation or feminisation of the foetus (including the foetal brain), comparable with those that have been implicated in the development of homosexuality and paedophilia. Indeed, neurological research of transwomen has detected (albeit controversially) a degree of brain feminisation. This has nothing to do with gender as that word is understood these days i.e. the social construction interpretation of the term.

GENDER, A CLOSER LOOK

It may be helpful to distinguish four ways in which the word gender is now used: 1. As a synonym: another word for sex; 2. In grammar; 3. As an element of identity; 4. As a performance.

Before the rise of second wave feminism in the later part of the 20th century, which Simone de Beauvoir pioneered with her 1949 book The Second Sex, the words sex and gender were often used synonymously. One major use not directly tied to human biology, though, is the fascinating role it plays in grammar, where in many non-English languages it is assigned to inanimate things, with apparently arbitrary and uber-queer results. In French, for instance, not only are “table”, “chair” etc., designated as feminine, but there are also slang words for the genitals that are the reverse of what might be expected. So, for cunt we have the masculine definite article “le con” and “le barbue”, and for cock we have the feminine article “la queue” and “la pine”. Male nouns for female sex organs, and vice versa! Would you Adam and Eve it!

This grammatical aspect makes an entertaining diversion, but of course the main focus of current public concern is gender identity, which is expressed through performanceJudith Butler’s fancy term for enacting gender roles through our dress and behaviour. Mercifully, having already attended to “trapped in the wrong body” as a conceptual issue, we will not need to dwell any further on either identity or performance in the abstract. We already have a good enough working understanding of the terms.

WHAT IS A WOMAN?

There is one further linguistic abstraction I should touch upon, though, at least briefly: polysemy, the ability of words to have several valid meanings. I had a long email debate last year with a philosopher friend who holds the view (which is orthodox in itself but susceptible to being taken too far) that words mean whatever a significant number of their users intend them to mean, or even a single user, such as a famous podcaster, if their newly coined meaning of a word goes viral. Dictionaries reflect this. The definitions they give do not come from an academic ivory tower. They are based on actual usage by speakers and writers of the language in question.

My friend professed himself comfortable with trans activists’ insistence that “A trans woman is a woman”. He felt that, because they were using the word “woman” in a new(ish) sense that had clearly gained quite widespread currency, it should be accepted. The main standard definition of woman (“adult human female”) should remain in the dictionaries, he averred, because that is the sense in which most people still use it, but a further definition could be added to accommodate those who identify as women and choose to live in accordance with accepted female gender roles and performance criteria (dress codes, etc.).

There is certainly a case to be made for this; and, as I have indicated before, I have no problem with using a transwoman’s preferred pronouns and, as a courtesy, behaving in her company as though she is indeed a woman. But this cannot be any more than a courtesy. Why not? Because, as we have seen above, there are medical issues (among other comparable social concerns: see Gribble et al.) that make it necessary for the primary definition of woman to trump the courtesy one. As the philosopher (sorry, yet another one!) Alex Byrne has argued, the fact that a word may have many legitimate different meanings does not mean that language cannot be harmfully misused, and his opinion is that misuse (through, in effect, denying the primacy of the primary meaning) has been a feature of the great “What is a woman?” debate.

A TAXONOMY OF GENDER DYSPHORIA

Having thus addressed the conceptual framework and unpacked its confusions and conundrums, it is time to take a final and more detailed look at the wisdom or otherwise of pursuing a policy of “gender affirming care” for all children who self-identify as transgender.

Like adult transgender people, gender dysphoric children are individuals, who need to be treated as such. It will help, though, to consider a basic taxonomy of four different transgender types, to which distinct treatment pathways are applicable. As identified in an HTOC blog some years ago, these are:

  1. child-onset gender dysphoria (GD) associated with marked gender nonconformity (both natal sexes)
  2. adolescent-to-adult onset GD associated with autogynephilia (AGP) (natal males only)
  3. late-onset female-to-male GD associated with unusual sexual and gender fantasies (natal females who want to have sex with/as gay men…); broadly, gay transmen.
  4. adolescent-onset GD in natal females that has a strong social/iatrogenic component, specified as Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD).

The opinions on treatment I will now briefly set out are merely personal rather than expert, but they are based on a much closer acquaintance with the evidence than will be found in most public discourse. In general, social transition for children is fine. I have no problem with it. But many kids regret being fast-tracked towards risky hormonal treatments and, far worse, disastrously mutilating and irreversible surgical procedures. Fast-tracking can and should be avoided. Every case needs extremely careful consideration.

GENDER AFFIRMING CARE

The watchword among cautious practitioners has been that medical interventions should only be considered when kids have shown they are sure they know their own minds by being “Consistent, Insistent, and Persistent” (CIP) in their GD and their pursuit of transition. This strikes me as a good criterion for category 1, those who since early childhood have manifestly been girlish boys or boyish girls. But it is not the last word. Many of these youngsters are quite simply gay; they might well be happier growing up to be gay adults living in their natal sex than changing. Only in homophobic societies is there any need to change. Accordingly, a better outcome than changing the kids to fit society, is to work for social change that accommodates us all.

A huge rise in adolescent girls referred to the British GIDS clinic is captured in this graphic, adapted from an academic paper for the Cass Review. Other clinics internationally saw a similar steep rise. This is the phenomenon on which Lisa Littman focused in her ROGD paper.

The CIP approach works less well for the later-onset dysphoria seen in categories 2-4. When adolescents present with these types of GD there is less time in which “watchful waiting” (another professional rule of thumb) can be usefully applied. Puberty itself does not wait, so puberty-blocking hormones must be applied in timely fashion to be effective. It could well be the case, though, that it is in these categories that many young people might be best served by physical change, because it would appear impossible to meet their sexual, romantic, and other life-style needs in any other way. See transwoman Natalie Wynn’s marvellous ContraPoints podcast and you will understand why. Wynn denies that she is AGP, and she has a witty, slickly presented blast against the psychologists who have championed AGP as a category, in part because she sees them as wrongly pathologising trans people. I think she has a point; but she also honestly ends up by admitting to some common ground with the experts in question.

As for category 4, ROGD, the theory it puts forward is based on the observation that in recent years there has been a sudden, very large increase in adolescent girls identifying as trans, and that in this group the impulse to transition has been driven by social factors such as peer group dynamics, social media use, and prior mental health issues. Lisa Littman, whose research published in 2018 gave ROGD its name, speculated that rapid onset of gender dysphoria could be a social coping mechanism for other disorders, such as depression and anxiety. Her hypothesis sparked outrage and accusations of transphobia. But it is a hypothesis with strong explanatory value in relation to a striking social development that otherwise lacks any convincing explanation; and now, following further research the deniers are in retreat. If you read nothing else from all the links in this blog read what Amy Tishelman, former research director of Boston Children’s transgender clinic, said in a recent interview. She has become a critic of the field she helped to create and is now clearly paying serious attention to ROGD. The implication is that the mental health history and social influences on every child need to be explored thoroughly, without rushing headlong towards the conclusion that “gender affirming care” is the right option.

THE TERFS AND J.K. ROWLING

I should point out that in none of the extensive analysis above have I even touched upon any of the objections to transgender rights that have been put forward by the TERFs. The case for caution in relation to adolescent physical transition has nothing to do with their claims, which often do seem to be grounded in transphobia – definitely so in the case of the hateful harridans of Reduxx, who are also (more than coincidentally) virulently anti-MAP, and whose co-founder Anna Slatz has flirted with the neo-Nazi Far Right.

Which brings me back to J.K. Rowling, who has been strongly identified with the TERF camp thanks to her belief that transwomen who have a penis should be excluded from women’s spaces (such as rape crisis centres, women’s prisons, female designated public conveniences, and competitive women’s sport) but who insists that she is not against trans people. I think the TERF case is strong on all the above issues; but I suspect that unlike the truly transphobic hard-liners, Rowling would be among those who would be interested in potential compromise solutions that would keep all reasonable parties happy:  such as working towards more unisex public conveniences.

I come back to Rowling because something needs to be said to fellow heretics here who expressed their “disappointment” at Part 1 of this blog, and who may now be even more upset to see me double down in Part 2. I urge them to consider carefully the arguments and evidence I have presented, rather than reacting in knee-jerk fashion.

The front cover of the 388-page Cass Review. A baseless attempt was made to discredit the report because it had allegedly left out important evidence. These claims, apparently originating with British journalist Owen Jones, have been refuted in a piece by specialist writer Jesse Singal in conjunction with Gordon Guyatt, a leading academic expert in evidence-based medicine.  See also Cheung et al.

Rarely is it easy to take a stance against strong opinion within one’s own “tribe” and friendship circle. But sometimes it is necessary to tell hard truths and “do the right thing”. In her first book Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, Rowling emphasised this very point. Soon after that book appeared in 1997 and became a global sensation, followed by the associated film in 2001, I wondered why the kids were being blown away by it, and decided to read the book myself, to find out.

I was impressed, and one incident in the story stood out for me. Do you remember a character called Neville Longbottom? He is presented as someone of no great distinction, just a modest boy with not much confidence, the sort who manages to “get by with a little help from his friends”. So, he really needed these friends. But there comes a time when he must risk losing their friendship by telling them they are in the wrong. This is his big moment. He finds his courage, sticks to his guns, and wins the day.

Rowling has said in an interview that “there’s a lot of Neville in me – this feeling of just never being quite good enough… I felt that a lot when I was younger”. For that reason, she wanted Neville to do something brave, in which Neville “finds true moral courage in standing up to his closest friends – the people who are on his side” towards the climax of the novel.

There is much less at stake for me than for Neville, or even than there was for Rowling when she was a young unknown. By contrast, I have no lack of self-confidence these days (different when I was younger), and I am not that bothered over making myself unpopular. After all, I’ve had a lifetime of experience at it! 🙂

 

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New video by Lefty video essayist Inneundo Studios, in support of Trans Healthcare. Narrated by Abigail Thorn of Philosophy Tube fame, who identifies as a Trans woman. May provide some counter / food for thought.

https://youtu.be/IqeFeqInoXc?si=FuVaOa71jkQAwVnO

“In effect, she is doing exactly what she asks us all to guard against.”

This is something I noticed is very common practice nowadays, even among those who position themselves as “independent thinkers”, and of course both people on the right and left. It is especially frustrating when you hear people doing that you otherwise like or sympathize with or consider smart :(.

In such cases, I often have a tendency to reach out and remind them… before I realize, that as a paedophile, I have no right to speak up.

Last edited 23 hours ago by David

Just not fair. i know a trans person who goes round the pubs and doesnt get harassed as its a hate crime. But i talk to people 18-21 i get called names. i even get threats, where is the protection here even though thye are very legal?? there was a guy in his 60s with someone in their early 20s but they are a nutter so noone will say anything. Guess i need to build myself up. Talk to 15 year olds? suicide. yeh try to stay legal and you still cant do anything!! map topic? similar ball game

Why would a Trans person get harassed? No one should be getting harassed XD Maybe that Trans person is super relaxed and comfortable in their own skin, or hot, or both!

Comparison is the theft of joy…

Think about yourself. What do you bring to the table? Why would a young woman want to date or have sex with you? If the answer is “nothing,” “no particular reason,” or “because I’m a nice person,” *buzzz,* wrong! Start again! Have a rethink!

Good for the guy in his 60s with the young lady! Hope he’s not too “crazy” and they’re happy together and treat each other well!

And yes, maybe you do need to “build yourself up.” Be the best version of yourself and you’ll be happier for it anyways.

There’s a reason people flocked to Andrew Tate, who famously said “if you’re depressed, go get a 6-pack.” By the time you’ve got in shape and got a body that most women will find appealing, you’ll probably feel better about yourself and your situation. And if not, at least you’ll look good!

The book I linked you in the previous blog post should be useful here…

Also, life isn’t fair…

Doc Stock with deft piece.of analysis on which i fervently hope our Prue will.comment after reading..
https://unherd.com/2025/01/neil-gaiman-and-the-perils-of-bdsm/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups%5B0%5D=18743&tl_period_type=3&utm_source=UnHerd+Today&utm_campaign=bbb34843d9-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2025_01_17_10_20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_79fd0df946-bbb34843d9-34894166
Stock is a smart cookie, and one highly stimulating writer. Strange then that only a few.months ago she felt compelled to wrire the word “hideous” not just once but twice when considering so much as the thought of children and sexual activity together

Haha, nice to be thought of :p

I’m never that impressed by Stock, though I do feel sorry for her being canceled, even if Brighton in the UK was the worst place for her to work as a “gender critical” feminist. It’s basically the LGBTQ capital of the UK. I’m amazed she lasted there as long as she did…

I think me and Stock have pretty irreconcilable values. I want people to be having sex and relationships, and for that we need a much more relaxed environment around sex. Advising people against having sex, or calling men, or progressive, feminist identifying BDSM enthusiasts like Neil “creeps” or a “manbaby,” isn’t helping to end the sex wars. Her article is an attempt to further the stigmatization of legal but non-normative sexual behavior, the exact thing I want to see more of, preferably in public where I can see it :p

She’s right on some things, not on others.

She’s right that the sadist (or dominant) is in a riskier position. As feminists have argued convincingly imo, men are expected to be the active agents or instigators of sexual contact, whilst girls and women are the passive recipients.

Generally, that reflects reality. And with the active role of initator left to men, it’s not surprising that they can easily “get it wrong.” They overpercieve sexual interest that was not there, or interest that quickly dissipates once imagation meets reality, or she realizes the social significance of what she’s doing (say kissing her partner’s best friend and risking her marriage).

The fact Stock uses the phrase “coercive control” tells me she’s likely listened to the podcast – good research and journalistic practice on her part – as the creator of this term speaks briefly on the podcast. (He is now dead, and from what he said on the podcast, he’s someone I won’t be missing as his lasting contribution appears to have been poisoning gender relations further, expanding the scope of the “abuse” discourse and policing other people’s consenting relationships he finds “inappropriate”).

Stock taking the piss out of “aftercare” is funny to me, and she’s not wrong that for some it could seem odd and confusing that someone who’s just whipped you within an inch of your life, is now being loving and affectionate.

But here, she’s appealing to the intuitions of people who don’t engage in such practices. The reality is that most people are big softies, their “BDSM” will extend to being tied to a bed or spanked with a paddle. (Ooo the fluffy handcuffs – so edgy! :p ). They won’t be using vac bags, needles, nose hooks, eating shit, etc.

Even if two people are into activity that draws blood or leaves massive bruises (many women in the latter camp), these practices are usually done in the context of a loving, affectionate relationship. Certainly, that’s been my experience. And I’ve had no trouble switching from sadistic to romantic and affectionate. I dare say that sadism itself can even be romantic!

I wonder if her profession (professional academic), her orientation (lesbian and radical feminist), and her age and social position at time of writing, make the dominant/submissive heterosexual matrix difficult for her to understand?

She brings up many points I agree with: about regret or changing your mind later, coming to see your past in a different light. I’ve harped on these points many times. But whilst caution is reasonable, and more reasonable the more famous you are (if you’re male), my first principles are clearly very different to Stock’s.

Whilst she argues “against getting involved in sadomasochism in general,” that it’s too risky and “tends” to put the submissive in a non-agentic state of mind, I would argue that:

1.) That’s the point! It’s called “subspace”!
2). Being deathbound creatures, instead of banking on an afterlife, it falls on us to engage in as many consensual, mutually pleasurable (legal!) experiences as we can before we die.
3.) That some people like it that way.

Stock’s undermining of women’s agency is incredible, especially the last line:

hoping that those with whom you had degrading sex in the past never properly get to know their own minds.

Implying that women who engage in BDSM or kinky sex don’t know their own minds. Cringe.

I know she has to find something to write to earn money, all the while appealing to Unheard’s generally conservative backers, but as an educated woman she’ll be aware of psychoanalysis and theories which argue that there is no “true self” (to use her phrase). That we’re always divided or “split subjects.” The gap between the ID, the Ego and the Super-ego, etc. There is always an omnipresent, niggling doubt or questioning in our minds; if we didn’t have this capacity we wouldn’t be able to change our minds. Even things we thought we were *so* sure of, can be questioned.

And since knowledge can never be complete, how can you come to know yourself or “your own mind” (whatever that is!), when you’re constantly in flux? It’s not possible. There isn’t a “true self” to begin with, just your ever changing thoughts as you go through life, interpolated by information and visual stimuli.

The reality is that women tend to care more about how they’re perceived socially, and the social significance of the sex they engage in. Men tend to look on sex with women as an achievement, since you had to put in effort to get it, do the asking, the courting, etc. For women, there’s a tendency to feel robbed, violated, like you’ve given up “something.” Men are more visually oriented and tend to care about looks or visual cues first, hoping she’s not crazy after the fact. With women, as is sometimes mocked as unrealistic online, we often see the desire for a whole host of things on top of looks that have to do with social standing or status. Does he have money, job, car, house, etc., not just “does he have a nice ass?”

Many of these women regret their time with Neil Gaiman because they’re horrified they had sex that they now see as taboo and transgressive / risky. If it were the 60’s and 70’s, it’d be empowering, but it’s the 2020’s post MeToo, post-AIDS world, where sex is invested with a huge level of risk and seriousness which is out of proportion to reality. Social media and the melting pot of so many people being able to tear down others at little consequence or risk to themselves, exacerbates this dynamic.

In the pre-internet world, it’d be so much harder to criticize a stranger’s relationship in any meaningful way, or even know about it! Unless you knew someone in the flesh by working with them or living together; that’s a small amount of people you could just brush off and move on. But now, angry Tweeters who’ve never even met you or your ex-partners, can exact extralegal mob justice based on their worst imaginings, scrutinizing everything a celebrity has ever said, and pressuring their employer and associates to drop them.

For women in their 20s like Neil engaged in, they’ll have more sexual opportunity than most men, meaning that they’re less likely to appreciate the sex they do have. With less appreciation, past experiences become more fallable to reconceptualization, especially if the man’s social standing lessens. Neil is now being widely criticized as an “abuser,” “manipulator,” and even “groomer,” which will lead many women by osmosis, to question and doubt their experience if other’s are seen to be doing so. As Julie Bindel titled her Unheard piece, “Bad Omens for Neil Gaiman.”

And that right there is precisely the reason i tend so strongly to believing that that verv constellation of things we call childhood innocence’ literally sets a girl right up for her eventual capitulation to the demands (= imperatives) of self-congealant victimary logic.

The fact that we consign plainly lusty little lads to the very same sphere-of-innocence as well makes the entire situation doublv confounding and unresolvable..

Response to Prue’s lengthy one coming asap!

Last edited 16 hours ago by warbling j turpitude

Before the rise of second wave feminism in the later part of the 20th century, which Simone de Beauvoir pioneered with her 1949 book The Second Sex, the words sex and gender were often used synonymously. One major use not directly tied to human biology, though, is the fascinating role it plays in grammar, where in many non-English languages it is assigned to inanimate things, with apparently arbitrary and uber-queer results. In French, for instance, not only are “table”, “chair” etc., designated as feminine, but there are also slang words for the genitals that are the reverse of what might be expected. So, for cunt we have the masculine definite article “le con” and “le barbue”, and for cock we have the feminine article “la queue” and “la pine”. Male nouns for female sex organs, and vice versa! Would you Adam and Eve it!

Beauvoir generated controversy when she briefly lost her teaching job after being accused of sexually abusing some of her students. She and her long-time lover, Jean-Paul Sartre, along with numerous other French intellectuals, campaigned for the release of people convicted of child sex offenses and signed a petition which advocated the abolition of age of consent laws in France. [12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_de_Beauvoir

Omg the plot thickens. For anyone interested in hearing the “victim’s” voice, in this case literally, you can listen to the podcast with the Nanny speaking 3 months ago. The oldest / first vid here:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWRFPjEFODJEtObcQNUsAZ6DXR81T_SRx&si=GFcerjPC5egaY-A7

It details her contradictory messages, saying she felt one way and then doing and even texting the other (“thank you for a lovely, lovely night x”; or at 32:40 “I’ve had a crazy weekend. […] Ridiculously crazy and rough and kind of amazing sex”). This was rough anal sex she now sees as rape…

This is just one person. Can’t speak for the others atm.

I am very certain however, that you could make funny and impactful edits / memes with this audio. And that YouTubers like Chud Logic or even Destiny, would have a field day listening to this podcast episode. They’d go wild and drive a ton of support for Neil who undoubtedly needs it at this time. Just putting it out there, for anyone who might want to do some outreach / activism.

As Chud says, “A man’s life hangs in the balance.”

Now that I’ve had a chance to listen to the podcast episodes, it’s clear to me that the progressive, Left/liberal feminist identifying Neil, made some big mistakes.

I agree with commentators who say this shouldn’t have been made public and should have been dealt with privately or through litigation in court.

The problem is that Neil has already paid money to some of these women. To the online world, this makes him look guilty, no matter the reality down on the ground and his real motivations for paying any of them. He thus broke rule no.1, the cardinal rule, of being a celebrity in the internet age. Say it with me class:

1). Never apologize.

Unless you genuinely feel you’ve done something wrong, never, ever apologize. If you must, you do it quickly and move on straight away. Never pay money to anyone who claims you wronged them, unless ordered by a court. You may feel guilty, they might have been your friend or lover who you still feel affection for, but in the public’s eyes it makes you look guilty.

In Neil’s case, he was still on friendly terms with the hot tub/bath woman, and gave her money out of compassion, to “pay for her therapy.” This line has been used disingenuously by media, implying that he accepted that he’d been the sole reason for her distress, as opposed to the fact that he knew well that she’d come from a broken home, was very poor, and had been forcibly institutionalized for being at immediate risk to herself and others (high suicide risk). Remember kids, “never stick your dick in crazy.” If she says “BPD, multiple personality, I have anger issues and used fist fight my old boyfriend, ” etc., you turn and walk away.

The podcast makes clear that this woman researched “MeToo Neil Gaiman,” looking for accusations against him and finding none, before going on to meet “abuse experts” who re-framed her sex with Neil as “grooming” and “coercive control.” Despite this, the bath woman maintained a distanced friendship with Neil, even reassuring him that people are “blowing this out of proportion,” that she’s never used the word “rape,” and that she’d never try to “MeToo him,” the fear of which we’re told made Neil suicidal…

A cyncic could interpret this as a woman lulling her rich, older victim into a false sense of security, being friendly to collect evidence over time. I don’t entirely think so, I just think she was really disturbed by the uncertainty and insecurity of her life circumstances. She seems better now, though, after a £60k “gift” from Neil which would have stabilized her life considerably. She’s now a literature student, and I await her capitalizing on her time with Neil in a surely best selling future book. We’re told that she now lives with a stable partner, and 2 cats… No more butter-as-lube rough “amazing” anal sex for her, I presume…
‐————
The worst case IMO, is an older woman who lived on a property on his estate, as part of a word of mouth agreement that she could buy the land / property for cheap from the Gaiman’s as a bonus for working there.

The woman, her husband, and her 3 kids lived there rent free for 6 years. But, the marriage broke down. The husband and his income are gone, and the older woman in distressed and turns to Neil. They grow closer and the relationship becomes sexual. This is the one case I agree was completely stupid to engage in, as this woman was in a ridiculously bad situation.

Really, she should have left, but who could blame her for sticking to what she’s used to, after living rent free on a rich man’s estate for 6 years? What is one divorced, older woman supposed to do, to keep a household of 4 people going? [Though, bear in mind, the age of her “children” is never revealed: can they work / find income?]

The problem is, as with the rest, that there’s not much “no” saying, and a lot of “I felt” X or Y way but didn’t communicate it. I’m with MrGirl (Max Karson) on this one: you should say no as if I was asking to have sex with your cat. “Saving my feelings” is avoiding telling me the part that I really need to hear, the “no.” Not “I’m tired,” not “ugh… okay.” Either way, she’ll be fine as she recieved nearly $300,000 in a settlement.

Neil does not accept criminal wrongdoing or intent to inflict psychic harm in any of these cases. But he does accept, as a MeToo supporting feminist, that he did have great power over some of these women, as he employed them and paid their wages. He appears to accept that he did, unintentionally, cause some of these women distress.

I completely understand why he paid some of these women. He very likely felt sorry as he’d had intense personal and affectional relationships with them, with the added bonus of hoping to save his career / public image. He didn’t want to be a public scandal. But, now these women have been paid and distanced themselves, what reason do they have to not speak to the media? For the ones who are afraid of backlash, the media will hide their names anyway, so they can never be held accountable for the claims they make…

The controversy over Neil’s relaxed attitude towards sex and sexuality hasn’t gone away, it’s intensified. His now ex-wife Amanda Palmer, a feminist activist singer who apparently likes to live naked at home, has been widely accused of complicity in “the abuse.” You can find people likening Neil to Harvey Weinstejn or Jeffrey Epstein, where Palmer is seen as “procuring young girls” (women) for her husband to have sex with.

What a sad state of affairs…

———-

Some questions arise:

“Can you ethically have sex with a fan?”

“Can you ethically have sex with someone you employ?”

Tom you mentioned once that we were in a crisis when it come to gender relations and it now seems to be getting noticed by quite a few women out there

Men REFUSE To Attend Singles Events—It Was 90% Women And Women Are Furious | Men Only

This news might be of interest to several readers of this forum:

https://tass.com/society/1899803

People on Reddit – https://www.reddit.com/r/neilgaiman/comments/1i1u35w/guardian_coverage_of_the_allegations_is_disgusting/ – are really pissed about the Guardian’s coverage of Neil Gaiman (see my comment below), so I think we’d all better go ahead and see what’s got them so upset:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/jan/15/neil-gaiman-denies-sexual-assault-allegations-new-york-magazine-ntwnfb

Neil Gaiman accusations relate to MAPs btw, insofar as a former babysitter / Nanny, quote:

alleged the 64-year-old assaulted her under the blankets on a hotel room bed while his son played with an iPad in the same room.

(From: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/neil-gaiman-author-raped-his-childs-babysitter-in-outdoor-pool-report-7468459 ).

Many online are saying this is “Child Sexual Abuse.”

As usual, the terms slip easily from “rape” and “sexual assault,” meaning that I wrongly thought Neil had been shagging in front of his son, whose age at the time is not specified. (How strange!)

Now it’s even less of a big deal, if they weren’t even having sex. He presumably just touched her body… somewhere? “Under the covers” at that. Maybe he tried to initiate sexual contact and was rebuffed? That’s what it’s sounding like to me…

Oddly, we’re not even told how the son is supposed to have felt or reacted, or if he even noticed or cared! I dread to think what these puritanical busybodies would say if they heard about pre-industrial / tribal cultures where children regularly see sex growing up, or where whole families live and sleep in the same space and have sex near to each other.

The negative assumption here is called the “primal scene.” It’s Freud’s assumption that children are upset if they see parents having sex, assuming daddy is hurting mommy, and it has been debunked. We know there’s no inherent psychological maladjustment from someone under 18 merely seeing sex or sexual activity. Otherwise, every teen or young kid – so basically everyone and certainly most male children – who watch porn would been in deep trouble!

Based psychologist Paul Okami gave us what is, to my knowledge, the biggest longitudinal study even done! And it found “no harmful main effects”. That doesn’t mean the study is perfect, but it does mean that philosophy and empirically, the haters are wrong. They’re just participating in what’s popular, falling in line for easy clicks and views…

Okami: https://sci-hub.se/10.1023/a%3A1018736109563

Last edited 2 days ago by Prue

The negative assumption here is called the “primal scene.” It’s Freud’s assumption that children are upset if they see parents having sex, assuming daddy is hurting mommy, and it has been debunked. We know there’s no inherent psychological maladjustment from someone under 18 merely seeing sex or sexual activity. Otherwise, every teen or young kid – so basically everyone and certainly most male children – who watch porn would been in deep trouble!

Exactly. If the psyche were so unstable, then all minors would suffer from circumcision (which I consider barbaric), medical examinations, visits to beaches and water parks not to mention nudist camps and watching porn. But none of this happens and cannot happen, because it is natural, only the phobias of society are unnatural, because they are based on irrational and ignorant prejudices. If we follow these prejudices, we can go even further, then it turns out that parents bathing their children and soaping their genitals should also be considered molestation and should be prohibited LoL.

If children, instead of being content to see, were allowed to participate in the “primal scene”, they would immediately realize that it’s anything but “daddy hurting mommy”…

It’s popular author Neil Gaiman’s turn for the chop. Many media articles currently discussing, hot off the press as we speak.

Claims emerged 3 months ago with little impact, but now a new article in New York Magazine has just dropped which features much more serious claims, including rape and “he made me lick vomit off his lap,” the media and internet are incensed and now kicking into high gear.

Neil was open about having a long term “open relationship,” and being into BDSM and various edgy sex practices. Horseshoe theory seems to be coming true and the regressive Libs are taking a pop at him for these practices, since they’re easy to scandalize as “weird,” “creepy,” and to construe as assault or torture when whippings, spankings, needles, petplay, or any number of BDSM practices are involved.

To famous men: find one woman or if you can’t help yourself, a loyal and dedicated small harem – and stick to them! Living the bachelor lifestyle in our modern “liberated” era of mob rule by jealous cunts on social media, will not bode well for you! The victim industry needs “predators” to keep going, and if they can’t find real dangers they’ll expand the scope and make some up!

A reddit forum space dedicated to Gaiman is littered with virtue signaling “ex-fans”. A thread about Neil’s public response received over 900 comments!!!

Here’s Neil’s response: https://journal.neilgaiman.com/

The new hit piece from NY Mag: https://www.vulture.com/article/neil-gaiman-allegations-controversy-amanda-palmer-sandman-madoc.html

NYT write up: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/14/books/neil-gaiman-responds-sexual-assault-allegations.html

‐————-

Coda on “consent”:

HuffPost: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/author-neil-gaiman-sexual-misconduct-assault-accusations_n_67864462e4b09287938b8a81

[This one has the strange line: “Then he asked if he could come on my face, and I said ‘no’ but he did anyway.”

> How?! How is that even possible? How, after you’ve repeatedly said no to his advances, after getting naked with him in a bath, did he manage to cum on your face?!]

A lesson to anyone: if you don’t want sexy time, you should communicate that (which she did, good), and then extract yourself from the situation so that no one thinks you’re being coy and just playfully saying “no” (a very common behavior in straight women…)

Psychologists and evo-psych people will argue, I believe accurately, that men overpercieve sexual interest. Whoever told you that there are no differences between men and women is wrong.

Men are not mind readers, and your “regret” later on isn’t what makes something non-consensual, so you must learn to communicate with any sex partner. That is why “consent and relationships” education is important early on, in the simple sense that asking first is a good best practice; that communication is key.

I agree with famous Youtuber Destiny here: if you can’t communicate your consent or assent, you shouldnt be having sex. If you are having sex with a man you suspect may turn violent on you “if you say no,” you should get far away from that man and should not be having sex with him in the first place or probably ever.

BDSM, even very extreme: fine. But that’s discussed and agreed on beforehand, safe words included. Unless you’re gagged or blackout drunk, if you don’t communicate your displeasure, that’s on you. Provocatively, it’s your fault. A partner can “check in” often and you can still come to regret an experience. Regret is part of life…

I was so disappointed by the once great Lefty debate streamer Vaush’s response: https://youtu.be/4WW9JvjYuDs?si=eOirmrXBJZFE3EI0

Vaush used to be so based and reasonable: https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Vaush

His positive and critically minded comments on MAPs and age-gap sex are well-known, and he has since done everything to try to escape his past and sanitize his image…

He’s been unironically pussywhipped, now he’s got a new, super secret girlfriend and is approaching 30, wanting to keep his streaming career secure after spending years outside the job market. And perhaps thinking forward, wanting to have kids and be seen, quite understandably, as “safe” and a “safe bet” for a prospective female partner.

In this segment on Gaiman, in less than a minute we hear the terms “groomed” and “predated.” Gaiman and his wife are pilloried for their progressive sexual politics, which is now reinterpreted as fake and disingenuous.

The craziest thing is that these “allegations” all involve young women, most of them in their 20s. The infantilization is off the charts!!!

Regarding the second episode of the In Dark Corners… I just love how when paedophiles are friendly and nice, it is grooming, control, and self-protection. Should I be more rude to people around me to be a better person?

It starts with the default assumption that MAPs are sadists who dedicate their lives to inflicting harm on children. Through this lens, any good that a MAP does is part of a ploy to inflict harm on a child, no matter the actual intentions.

Renton’s team clearly hold the same bias toward the alleged involvement of PIE members in gay youth groups. Now, I don’t doubt that BLs back in the day used the gay youth groups as a way to hook up consensually, but I doubt that hooking up was the only purpose. Getting young people onboard is important for any cause, and young gay people would have been a natural ally when the heterosexual AoC was 16 and the gay AoC was 21.

Renton’s whole approach is horribly cynical, despite all the reading he’s obviously done.

The idea that MAPs are cruel sadists is rooted in Satan.

In truth, many moral MAPs feel tender and loving thoughts and emotions towards children and young children; and even very young children.

I only ever want to improve the life experiences and happiness of children.

I have no technical problem with MAPs who wish to give oral sex to even a very young child.

Or to penetrate a child of at least nine years of age.

I do have a problem with MAPs who, whether intentionally or unintentionally, inflict physical or psychological pain upon a child.

This makes my blood boil; and gives me horrifically murderous thoughts; even thoughts of cruelly torturing that individual, with the very worst tortures known to Man.

That is how strongly I feel, about children enjoying sex.

However, this is all rooted in pure hypothesis, and a lower age of consent is, in my view, highly unlikely to become enshrined in United States Law (especially), United Kingdom Law (almost especially), or European Law (perhaps – French Law? German Law? Dutch Law?) any time soon.

This is all I have to say, by way of my response to your comment, Brian Ribbon.

Feel free to reply, if You would like.

Witness My Hands, this seventeenth of January, in the Year of Our Lord Twenty Hundred and Twenty Five.

One final thing, by way of addendum: I believe in the Geneva Convention; except in cases of child cruelty; especially gross, explicit, or extreme child cruelty.

Do you agree, Brian Ribbon.

What is Your Philosophy of Child-Adult Sex.

My philosophy on consensual AMSC is that, in a perfect world, the same case-by-case judgment would be applied as to consensual relations between adults. That would mean that only non-consensual relationships would be prosecuted.

Unfortunately, we inhabit a world that is a long way from perfect, and we should be advocating mild adjustments if we are to have even the slightest chance of being listened to.

I have written extensively as a guest author on Newgon and co-founder of Mu. These two articles best ‘summarize’ my cautious proposals at this point:

https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Essay:Pro-Reform:_The_Rational_Middle_Ground
https://www.map-union.org/perspectives/16-12-pro-reforms-position-on-amsc

Thank you Brian. I agree with your vision about the ideal scenario of consensual AMSC being enshrined in Law; however, in my personal view, I do not see it happening any time soon. As I said, I agree with it in Principle.

Would you like a more extended response, once I have had chance to read the two articles?

I can reply tonight if you like; forgive me, I have a busy day 🙂

Hi Brian,

My brain gets tired easily; I could only manage the first essay tonight. I will address the second tomorrow.

Tom appreciates brevity, so let me be concise.

  1. I agree with NOMAP >>> Pro-Reform; I support this.
  2. “Religious nonsense” is a horrible slur – I am a fervent Roman Catholic.
  3. AMSC is not inherently harmful. “Terrible acts of abuse” are RARE.
  4. MAPs are NOT ticking time bombs. Harsh social structures encourage dangerous behaviour.
  5. Ethan Edwards is a legend.
  6. A high AoC increases risk of harm. 12 with protections: 100% agree in principle.
  7. PIM is a contentious area, in my opinion.
  8. MAPs driven to suicide: MASSIVE PROBLEM.
  9. Simple possession of PIM: very dicey legal ground to insist on blanket legalisation.
  10. Combating social stigma of MAPs: MOST CRUCIAL POINT!

I will address the second essay at some point tomorrow.

Ok Brian, here are my notes on Your second essay:

  1. In any hypothetical situation, adults need to take extra care when engaging sexually with a minor. INCEST WOULD REMAIN PROHIBITED.
  2. Not all sexual contact with adults is harmful or perceived as negative by the minor; rather, it is considered a problem for puritanical, rather than empirical reasons. However, social attitudes and intense pressure from the child protection industrial complex lead children to eventually believe that they are victims of abuse in ANY sexual encounter. 
  3. AMERICAN PURITANS TURNED A TEMPORARY FIX INTO A PERMANENT STATE OF AFFAIRS, cementing a high AoC. High AoC a consequence of 19th century laws intended to combat the awful abuse of women and young girls in the sex trade. Very first one globally: UK. Response to child prostitution.
  4. In theory, Spermarche / Menarche are natural points in time for AoC. Also, age of criminal responsibility can be 10. Also, according to research on the ethics of medical consent, children of 11.2 years and above can generally be considered decision-making competent. Also Rhode Island in the US has an age of consent for 12 year olds conditional on their partner being close in age (also Alabama and Delaware).
  5. While adolescents have a degree of sexual capacity, it is indeed not as developed in all senses as adults.
  6. HOWEVER, there is no essential difference between a Child and an adolescent. A Child of six can still be sexually aggressive. In my humble opinion, Children and teens ARE in exactly the same league with regard to power imbalances. A 7yo can be as aggressive or naive as a 12yo.
  7. Masturbation was once considered as self-abuse, but now it is broadly accepted that even babies can masturbate. Therefore, can a child of ANY age, properly speaking, be considered asexual? Sexual fantasies can happen extremely young. Do hormonal changes shift behavior from sexual curiosity to adult-like sexual attraction? No, children can be highly sexual even at six.
  8. This muddies the waters. While there is a logical argument for setting AoC to Menarche, the psycho-physical reality is that Children of any age can experience sexual feelings. Therefore, why would we stop at Menarche and not progressively move AoC lower until it is eliminated altogether? Yet this presents a societal, even civilisational danger, DUE TO ESPECIALLY: POPULATION COLLAPSE.
  9. Therefore I would not support any lowering of AoC. Also, I would not support ANY legalisation of PIM.
  10. HOWEVER, the risk of harm to children and the wider public is severely amplified by the overwhelming stigma of fancying Children, and the danger of confiding in friends and family about it. Therefore, it is crucial to manage the tension between prevention of harm & respect for autonomy. In other words, don’t shame adults and Children for having natural feelings for each other.

im struggling to find sympathy for one of the most hateful plaes on earth for us (LA) . if thit makes me bad well you can blame the years of abuse… i dont know how tom keeps his cool

Oh… well if i dont mellow out il probably die quickly. but surely we more mellow than politicians in america who apparently are going to execute certain folk… i didnt read the article but caught the headline…

Matt

With time comes patience plus when one gets older they can’t be assed with people who say stuff that used to bother them cos they find themselves with better things to do and think about.

Hey Tom, sorry to be a pain, but I just wanted to express how truly grateful I am for everything you do for MAPs and MAP rights.

Although I do not necessarily agree with the principle of Child-Adult Sex (Child first), nevertheless I believe what You are doing has extraordinary potential for changing the world for the better.

Therefore You have my profoundest thanks.

Witness My Hands 🙂

Yes

To clarify, when I say Child-Adult Sex (Child First), I mean that were this to ever be legalised (you or I have no power, and probably very little influence over this decision making process), it would be imperative that the Child’s wants, needs and pleasures were put entirely and absolutely above the adult’s wants, needs and pleasures.

Do you agree? Others feel free to chip in also.

The journalist / reporter Andrew Gold, probably most known for his interviews with (largely and increasingly) anti-Trans and grooming / ‘elite pedo cover-up’ talking heads, has recently released a video from years ago with “children can consent” in the thumbnail image.

He’d learnt German and ‘infiltrated’ pedophile sympathetic spaces over a period of two years, finally gaining the trust of a pedophilic man who’d agree to be interviewed.

The man himself is pretty chill, but has multiple past offences under his belt. Andrew’s private perspective is anything but sympathetic…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPMeA-2rKyU

Since Andrew has been willing to be divisive and, in his own words, lose friends, over his Trans content, his channel will be of interest to many. For both its content on Trans issues, and its occasional content on MAP issues. Of course, with “grooming gangs” and “drag queens,” these two issues are sometimes seen as intersecting.

He has done some genuinely important interviews IMO, including debating Peter Tatchell on Trans issues, and more recently interviewing Keira Bell, Charlie Bentley Astor, and Rosie Kay.

In fact, Tom, Gold’s intellect is not so formidable, in my opinion. Spending enough time listening to him – which isn’t all that long – could lead only to that conclusion. He plays fast-and-loose with the truth, is poorly informed on most any topic he takes on and will probably do well in showbiz, given his ostentation, which is undoubtedly the direction where he is headed.

As you have undoubtedly noticed, many of the people with important perspectives on the trans issue are no fans of “pedos,” either. It’s uncomfortable for me to listen intently, nodding along in full agreement, to Helen Joyce speaking to the trans phenomenon, only for her to suddenly break into a full-on blast of “manipulative, evil pedophiles,” as if the two were related.

So, if this is problematic for me, who is as jaded and inured to assholery as one could possibly be, with the benefit of a half-century of it, then it’s got to be troubling for the young MAP (there’s that term; I’ll use it while in the MAP House, like taking off my shoes in a Japanese micro-apartment) who hasn’t yet developed the armor necessary to fight back.

Nevertheless, these two issues – “intergen,” I like to shorten my preferred term for gender-indifferent minor attraction to, and “trans” – are two separate issues with only some “minor,” complicating relationships between them. Some people are going to be right about trans but, like almost everyone else today, wrong about “intergen.”

So, as much as I dislike people like Helen Joyce for their stances on pedo’ism (that’s a new one, even for me), I find myself agreeing with her, almost entirely, about the trans issue.

The more I find out about trans radicalism, the more I think it is inimical to the health and lifetime well-being of kids.

Living in San Francisco for the last forty years, I’ve known many trans people and almost all of them (though not quite) were lovely, gentle people whom I didn’t hesitate in addressing by their preferred pronouns (provided they weren’t “They, Them” or “Zer.” Sorry, but that’s where I hop off the bus). I will still address them by those same pronouns but I won’t be compelled to believe that they are actually the sex or gender (and I say those are precisely the same thing) opposite those they were “assigned at birth” (also, a complete absurdity, utterly bereft of any understanding of basic biology!)

But this new lot are very different from my next door neighbor who I met in 1984, Alexa, (I can’t say that name out loud anymore or my devices will spring to life and I’ll have to tell them repeatedly to shut up like a pack of chihuahuas) who never placed demands on anyone, let alone telling them what they were allowed to think.

Lastly, and here’s the connection between trans & pedos: society has conducted a very long and very disastrous experiment upon children. They’ve completely removed US from their lives, for starters and then stripped kids of all agency or independence they ever once enjoyed and locked-them away for safekeeping in walled gardens, separated from any adults who were not directly related or authorized by the state. They even separated them from other kids who were not within a couple of years of them – a complete perversity!

So, out of that comes the trans movement. Is it a coincidence?

I don’t think so. I think it has everything to do with everything that has happened to kids since the late-1970’s, their lives having been blighted by paranoia and mistrust.

It’s shocking but not a surprise.

Good to talk with you, again, Tom!

Oh, I forgot! It has touched me, too: my former bookkeeper’s two, now-grown, children, a boy and a girl, kids I’ve known since they were born, have both “transitioned” having been on hormones for years and are now getting “top-surgery!”

I can’t help but think that their mother’s emotional lability and general instability, which led to a very chaotic home, had something to do with this.

Last edited 4 days ago by David Kennerly

“There is an element of “protests too much” about it.”

Genius. This is the undoing of all these people, we should directly pull on this string whenever possible. They give themselves away with their illogical, emotional protests, that they are hiding the truth, either because they are attracted themselves to taboo things or they are profiting from the hysteria.

I follow his work for few years, too. What brought him to my attention was probably a podcast interview he did with James Cantor “How sexuality comes about (controversial)” and couple of others, including “We need to talk about Silas”, where he interviewed a paedophile. Initially, I thought he was open minded and brave enough to tackle the issue, but quite soon I realized he is just desperately looking for a controversial topic to cover, using his psychopathic skills to gain trust of people he talks to. He did an interview with one of the “predator hunters”, too, and the enjoyment he described experiencing when watching a person “to lose everything in a second”, since his childhood, was quite eye opening.

Last edited 7 days ago by David

The vast majority of the time, you’ll find self-described “predator pedophile hunters” are simply closet homosexual masochists, who enjoy projecting their personal trauma onto others. It’s hard to be against the pharmaceutical industry’s efforts to addict the world to zombie pills when these cretins exist.

Do you have a link to the interview, David? I would like to write an article about ‘predator hunters’.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

It may not be a problem for you Tom but I think its also worth pointing out that this guy was a famous singer in the 90s but he lost it all (maybe because he upset the wrong people) and now lives on benefits.

Brian Harvey – Wikipedia

When it comes to diet I don’t have the best (I am trying to correct this by having smaller but more regular potions its a work in progress) and sometimes if I do fancy Jacket proving I haven’t eaten all day I will make two Jacket Potatos with vegan cheese beans.

I can’t see me ever trying to eat more than one jacket potato at a time.

btw you say you don’t drive anymore is that because you want to live a more eco friendly lifestyle cos if so then veganism is a good way of doing so

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/05/us/assumption-university-students-catch-a-predator-tiktok.html?smid=url-share

Students Charged in ‘To Catch a Predator’ Social Media Scheme (2025)

A group of students, inspired by a TikTok fad, confronted a man after he was invited to the Assumption University campus by an 18-year-old woman on a dating app.

Completely. Insane. One of the craziest things I have ever read, and one for the history books. I can’t believe I live on the same planet as people who’d do something like this. Multiple people, not one lone crazy person who kills a kid. A planned, orchestrated attack of over 20 people versus one 1 man. A military man at that…

These dangerous creeps will face sentencing in court soon. There is some justice in this world.

i was right it is getting worse. this many be a map blog, but we must stand up gainst the hatred of age gap relationships of all types! it will only be justice if they get 25 years at least

Cultivated sexual frustration and the complete misunderstanding of women’s bad behavior. Wasted generations from feminism.

In my view, this question isn’t really about language at all (though admitedly the confusion of terms like ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ in much of the twittering polemic definitely doesn’t help matters). I don’t think the problem can be made to go away, as analytic philosophers are always tempted to think, if we can only create better and clearer and more fool-proof definitions. Superior lexicography is not going to get us out of this bind.

The real problem is one of ontology – or, in the language of the moment, ‘social ontology’ – which I think is far more recalcitrant. The question is not really something as trivial as “how should we define categories of sex difference?” but the much more tricky question “do such categories really exist in the first place?”

This is difficult, because instead of quibbling over questions of language we instead have one party claiming that (not necessarily binary) sex difference exists in a natural and essential sense, and another party denying that it exists in this way. And when the argument comes down to ‘yes this thing exists’ against ‘no it doesn’t,’ it can be very hard to move anywhere beyond this. And a lot of the so-called debate over trans issues really seems to drill down to exactly this bedrock division.

For myself, I’d say I’m a fairly robust constructivist when it comes to sex: I don’t think that ‘sex’ is any more real or essential or immutable than ‘gender’ is. And the medical evidence you cite is not necessarily a clincher: yes, it might well be true that Parkinson’s Disease is more common in men than in women. But this doesn’t mean that ‘men’ and ‘women’ are more than labels of convenience. After all, sickle-cell anaemia is a lot more common in black people than in white people, but it doesn’t neecssarily follow from this that blackness’ is an essential category in any sort of Platonic sense. It may be a mere label of convenience (as, to be frank, all language tends to be).

Such annihilatory scepticism is no doubt infuriating to the sex-essentialist, just as the obdurate realism of the essentialist looks bafflingly obtuse to the constructivist. I’m not sure there’s any way to mediate between these two positions, because they rest on radically incompatible (though perhaps equally coherent) conceptions of the world. And even if most people who express an opinion on trans issues do not clearly articulate a ‘realist’ or a ‘nominalist’ ontology, I do think that this core philosophical division lies at the heart of almost all of this debate.

Whether it is possible to create a liberatory approach to trans politics that side-steps this neuralgic split remains to be seen. (Whether the outcome of the recent US election is really all that relevant to the cultural and political trajectory of trans rights is however a separate issue – I remember pundits conflidently predicting that Mrs Clinton’s defeat in 2016 marked the death of American feminism – just a few months before the MeToo movement blew up.)

As far as perverts go, I suspect we are – like everyone else – divided between sex -constructivists and sex-essentialists, between common-sense realists and radical-sceptical nominalists. I would suggest, though, that the debate does have more direct relevance for us, especially as far as one particular set of constructions is concerned.

Like paedophilia and other paraphilias, ‘gender disphoria’ is a construct of the psychiatric guild. Like paedophilia and other perversions, I would suggest that it lacks any essential ‘reality’ – it’s a label that has been stuck on people because it is convenient. But of course not everyone will agree.

Some perverts will believe that paraphilias are in some sense ‘real’ things and that the labels the psychiatric profession devises carve nature at its joints. And others of us will think that such labels are purely contingent – mere flags of convenience – though such ensigns are convenient mainly for people other than the ones who are required to fly them.

I’m not going to claim that one social ontology is clearly better or truer than the other, but the one you favour is definitely going to have implications for the kind of pervert-politics you favour – just as it will map onto the kind of trans politics or flavour of feminism you prefer.

also Tom and I am sure you have already thought of this but in order the improve your blog would it be a good idea to allow users like myself to edit any future post just in case we make a mistake whilst typing that way we can correct it if we notice it?

Hi Tom

I am currently in the process of reading your latest blog and wasn’t going to post anything until after I have done so but I would like to make you aware Tom that the guy in this video is making some comments about you that may be slanderous.

BHTV is BACK!!!

The video is about 2hrs and 30mins long and between 35 to 40 minutes into the video he is talking about P.I.E and then claims all sorts of things ie that you have been involved in snuff videos that involve children being tortured

Two MPs murdered? In the UK? Who were they, and when and why were they murdered?

RIP

I remember the Jo Cox murder like it was yesterday. Unbelievable, given how boring and noncontroversial she was. Absolutely crazy.

Poor woman, poor guy.

Would an MP be murdered i wonder if they called for age of consent reduction? There has been discussions…

Not necessarily. BUT, they would for sure be relentlessly attacked in media. And probably impeached / de-selected, in a vote of no confidence by the wider party to which they’re affiliated.

It all depends how and why they called for said reduction, how it’s framed by them and subsequent media. More importantly, in today’s world it depends on how ravenous and loyal your supporters are. How much of an influence you can garner and maintain on social media.

As Trump once said, he could shoot someone in the street, and it’d make no difference to his popularity. People would still support him. He has just been found guilty on over 30 federal criminal charges, at least one of which is for illegal age-gap sex (“child sexual abuse”). But, he cannot be jailed because of presidential immunity. It will literally do nothing to make him less popular.

By contrast, if Trump were a Leftist politician, the next Bernie Sanders, he’d already have been relentlessy attacked by both sides of popular media, dropped by the party when news about potential criminality emerged, with his supporters divided and bickering amongst themselves…

Right now it appears that MAPs, “groomers”, “predators,” are a hot topic, if not the topic. People are absolutely obsessed. Many seem to be on the lookout for any hint of dissident thought; anything they can rage about for social media clout.

It’s a very weird world…

if Trump were a Leftist politician, the next Bernie Sanders, he’d already have been relentlessy attacked by both sides of popular media, dropped by the party when news about potential criminality emerged, with his supporters divided and bickering amongst themselves…

The Left attacked Trump for 4 years, banned him from social media, portrayed him as a Nazi and the spawn of hell, tried to impeach him twice. I am not his fan, but even for me it looked crazy.

At the same time, when the Right tried to bring Biden to trial, the Dems started saying he was too old for this crap. Hypocrites on both sides. The battle between Scylla and Charybdis.

Now that the pendulum has swung in the other direction, all the hypocritical corporations have began to report on the curtailment of the “inclusive” agenda, Zach Censorberg started talking about bringing back “free speech” on social media. LOL. But, we know that this is all just another hypocrisy, only with a different flag, and they will still not have any real freedom of speech.

Yeah, I think it might finally be the right time for Tom to call our dear Donald and ask him for some help here. You know, just to avoid publishing that evidence that he was our only American PIE member, back in the days. 🙂

Ok I just thought it was worth letting you know, and like you I did notice that it was freeman but I thought the other guy was called David Joy so I guess it just go’s to show how misinformation can spread which is probably why we have so many conspiracy theories going around which hopefully the Map community along with the rest of the world will be able to properly deal with some day but the only way to do that is to allow people the truthful answers that they crave which I can’t see happening anytime soon due to the amount of corruption in the world.

Really weird. The interviewee says he “went in with” Jimmy Saville, Max Clifford, and others. Not sure who the guy being interviewed is but this does sound wild.

Can’t stand the audio on this one. Especially the old skanky dude who’s watching the video. He keeps chopping with his lips, like some ASMR shit. And sorry but I am classist, he sounds poor and dumb as shit. They are mutually exclusive, but in this case he strikes me as not far off the worst of both worlds. Painful to listen to.

Nearly 10,000 views in 11 hours isn’t bad, but it’s hardly earth shaking and seems more like cringy, generic niose slop, just taking up the airwaves and preaching to the choir. The kinds of people who are convinced by this are so gullible as to be too far gone; remember, you can’t convince everyone. In fact, you don’t need to.

Never heard of this channel and hopefully never will again.

Looking over him, he’s clearly one of those right-wing grifters who’s content is “too hot to handle,” complaining about the BBC supposedly getting his content removed from Youtube.

Good!
————————–
The most interesting part is a website he scrolls through: https://labour25.com/

It purports to document ‘paedophiles’ within the UK’s Labour Party, though it also features Germaine Greer and her book The Beautiful Boy. The constant, uncritical reproducing of UK legal jargon which is by its nature opaque and often dishonest – ‘making an indecent image’ – which can simply mean downloading / saving a photo, since it’s considered that you’ve then ‘made’ a copy. ‘Making’ sounds like you set up a camera or took a photo yourself, it’s confusing to the public and makes any offense sound far worse and more involved than it may actually be.

I also struggle to believe that many of these people were actually looking at real ‘children’; I worry and strongly suspect that their crimes involve artwork / cartoons. It is also clear that many of these cases involve conversations with fake profiles on dating apps, that turn out to be undercover cops. This doesn’t tell you if these people are preferentially attracted to prepubescent children, or if any of their crimes relate to pre-pubescent children.

In all likelihood, many were just horny dudes looking it porn they didn’t realize was illegal in the UK, or just horny dudes who were bored and didn’t pay much thought to the sexual conversations they had online.

It all seems a little bit crazy to me…

Further to my comment, it appears that under “extreme pornography” laws, in Scotland it’s an offense to posses any porn depicting rape, which basically criminalizes most hentai comics. From what I hear, tropes like hypnosis, as well as outright non-consensual sex, are extremely common.

Bestiality too, I believe is common in hentai porn, and that’s illegal under UK and Scottish law.

What a joke of a country…

every country is a joke banning mild pictures of teens. yet they happy to chuck them in jail

Let’s add to the joke – the most popular female porn is rape porn and completely legal and celebrated in Scotland!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/life_style/arts_ents/13087791.created-scotlands-answer-fifty-shades-grey/

But if it gets a man off, you can trust male and female sex negative feminists will be adamantly against it.

First. Is the gender “spectrum” one-dimensional like Kinsey’s homosexuality scale, a line segment with man and woman as extremities, and only intermediates between? Or can there be genders that are not intermediate between man and woman?
Second. In addition to biological sex (role in sexual reproduction) and psychosocial gender, there is also a third aspect, erotic attractiveness, or masculinity and femininity, what one calls sometimes sex-appeal. Being an heterosexual male, in my gaze trans-women generally appear as “not real women” but as imitations, they don’t appeal to me.
A related question is: For humans, despite an underdeveloped sense of smell, pheromones are known to play a subliminal role in sexual attraction. Does the hormonal treatment of transgender people change their pheromones?

I find the attractiveness aspect also puzzling and interesting, as I do not remember any sexologist I follow talking about it. But many people find trans partners very attractive and actually prefer them. Isn’t it great how diverse the sexuality can be (and is)? Everyone can find a partner and live a happy life :).

First. Is the gender “spectrum” one-dimensional like Kinsey’s homosexuality scale, a line segment with man and woman as extremities, and only intermediates between?

IMO Yes. It’s a similar scale with degree of gender expression. Unfortunately I’m not a scientist, but according to my (amateur) hypothesis, there are three scales and together it form the “sexual Ego”.

1) Sexuality scale (Kinsey’s)
Heterosexual — Bisexual — Homosexual

2) Gender scale
Cisgender — Bigender — Transgender

3) Chronophilia scale
Cis-age — Pan-age — Inter-age

Second. In addition to biological sex (role in sexual reproduction) and psychosocial gender, there is also a third aspect, erotic attractiveness, or masculinity and femininity, what one calls sometimes sex-appeal. Being an heterosexual male, in my gaze trans-women generally appear as “not real women” but as imitations, they don’t appeal to me.

It is necessary to conduct a survey of bisexuals’ opinions and collect statistics. If they are attracted to both men and women, then they should not care whether they are biological or not.

Tom you are mentioned in some BBC podcast….’In Dark Alleys’….They were talking about it today on Five live with the condescending Naga woman. I did try and message you before but can’t see it there.

i tried looking for it but found something called in dark corners which is probably it. (it mentions shutting down pie) episode not available !!

Just thought I’d mention that on the radio this morning BBC4 I heard them talking about PIE, Dark Alleys was the title I recall. Are you aware of this Tom?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00272c5

Wow. Listening to episode 1, although there’s not much depth overall, there’s interesting info amongst the negative discourse and creepy music.

Charles Napier apparently hit on one Francis Wheen, who went on to become a highly successful writer, journalist and broadcaster. More accurately, Charles allegedly made an unsuccessful pass on Wheen (went to start masturbating him), which a now much older Wheen says he rebuffed.

Charles was apparently upset, though not aggressive. He is painted as somewhat juvenile in his reaction to rejection. He was, after all, a schoolteacher in his 20s. Relatively young.

(I wonder if Napier felt strong “emotional congruence with children,” or “age dysphoria”? His own thoughts would be interesting to hear about)…

Francis Wheen himself says he didn’t perceive that attempt at initiating masturbation, as abuse or molestation at the time. Charles was reported to the headmaster and dismissed from his position, so there wasn’t some big “cover-up” going on…

At 24:30, a “shocking” letter is discussed, apparently intended for Richard Alston, who we are told was Charles’ long term partner. There are letters from boys, saying how nice a man he is, with one even calling him a “sugar daddy”!

I wonder if the journalists involved here will be able to track down and speak to these former boys; I’m doubtful, but it’d be at least somewhat interesting.

As Pat says, the podcast talks about you a lot too. Not overly harshly I guess, not entirely inaccurate either. Renton does acknowledge how articulate you are, but also sees this as why you’re so “dangerous.” Seems similar to Julie Bindel. They’re quietly horrified once they meet a reasonable, mild mannered MAP who’s educated and articulate, who’s heard every argument under the sun and can argue the case (reportedly for 3 hours, in your call with Renton some years ago)…

Interesting podcast. Though, since there’s more to come, I guess we’ll have to wait and see if any new info comes to light – perhaps things you’ve forgotten or didn’t know about. I’m doubtful so far, that much novel info or analysis will come out, but I could be wrong!

Let’s see and find out, on the next episode!!!

Well apparently the MET police already have the PIE member list, so many will’ve got a knock at the door by now anyways, you’d think. Many will also be elderly or, as the article states, dead. Some were open-minded academics like Ken Plummer, who’s also dead.

What it may lead to, as you mention, is a new string of investigations / knocks.

Also, Renton’s reporting comes at a time when the political Right are obsessing over grooming gangs and alleged paedophilic cover ups, so it could add more fuel to the fire. It could easily be used to bang on about the police “not doing enough,” “protecting paedophiles” (even if they’re mostly elderly or dead already), and so on.

Though, unless it’s framed as an attack on “the Left” and “Labour,” I’m not sure there’s any former members with dark enough skin or muslim-sounding names, for them to care. No “Kalid Masoods” or “Al Jafar something something Mohammed,” so it might all remain in relative obscurity and confined to mainstream press.

We’ll have to wait and see…

Great scan btw. Extremely readable.

How could he even find anyone’s names if PIE members didn’t use real names ?

Well, wouldn’t it be needed in order to receive the magazine by the post? In the podcast, Alex is shocked that so many people on the list put there their workplace postal adress. That makes sense to me, as people might not want their partner to know about their PIE membership. Second, since when the registration to receive a magazine with perfectly legal content is considered disgusting? I am subscribed to many podcasters today I don’t agree with or like, only to hear different point of views on various topics. It is this sensational presentation I don’t like about the podcast, and deliberate emotional blackmailing to provoke disgust.

Couple of related articles, the last one actually on topic:

  • BBC Men on secret 1970s pro-paedophile list could still work with children today
  • The Telegraph Britain has an institutional addiction to cover-ups’: the scandal of the Paedophile Information Exchange
  • The Times Parasitic paedophiles are lesson in trans debate

https://fstube.net/w/3bbhebVZHgk2scZxqU8Vdw

The men they interviewed made the alleged sex sound very banal and transactional, even under conditions most of us would condemn nowadays. I have an active interest in this subject, but turned off because I was bored.

One of the effects of #MeToo has been to replace the myth of the sadistic sex fiend by democratizing “awkwardness” and “inappropriateness”.

This podcast was #MeToo for posh boys.

Exactly my thoughts. Dramatic music, “shocking list”, “government cover-up”… It feels like an attempt to make a story out of nothing, with a flavor of good old #metoo to spice it up. I feel like people are getting bored of this stuff. They’d need to find someone still publicly active to grab people’s attention, I think. But in the last episode they’ll talk about the two former BBC employees on the list… at least that might be a bit funny.

How would you have preferred these 1970s men to discuss it? I’ve seen the video and heard the audio: they seem pretty defensive to me. “Under duress” barely begins to describe it, since they would’ve been well-aware of the risk of being investigated by police, socially ostracized and so on, that would come with doing such an interview.

Do you expect them to admit to what would be considered and investigated as crimes? Or to rattle off grand tales of child love throughout the ages, of children and adults coming together to form a perfect union the likes of which mankind has only hitherto dreamed of? Should they talk about how the young ones actually introduced them into BDSM, in the 1970s, before the internet was even a thing, when everyone’s access to porn and information was limited to films and print media?

The best they could do in the circumstances would have been to passionately quote, do a dramatic reading, from a historical case or research study.

I am not sure, under the circumstances, they could’ve made it much more interesting. If it was a recording of a speech, it could’ve been far more grandiose, passionate, and rousing. But since it’s an interview and they’re clearly timid and on the backfoot, they’d be wary about appearing aggressive or domineering.

It is an interview from a long time ago, you can’t expect dynamic shots, action packed storylines, to have narrated to you the inner thoughts of the character so we, the audience, understand him better. It’s not a movie, an anime, or a hentai, it’s real life.

I’d be interested to know quite what you think they could’ve done to make it more interesting? Perhaps they could’ve dressed as adult babies and “coo’d” at the screen? They could’ve started the 1970s version of “uWu” long before it was cool. That would surely be entertaining and lead to no negative press at all?…

I am responding to that episode.

Just to be clear. It was1970s boys who were interviewed. One thing that emerged was that the 1970s men in these 1970s encounters are almost all now deceased.

As for the police now having the list, it came from the police. All the names on it were fully investigated in the 1980s and early 1990s. One of the detectives then took it home in his briefcase when he retired. To put it more directly, the thieving thief stole it. Whether because he had some moralistic bee in his bonnet, or hoped to make some money from it, or just as a souvenir There are also some bags of other material.

It strikes me that all of this material is almost certainly evidence seized during the raids that led up to the 1980 trial. This whole series really is raking over long-dead cold ashes, trying to find some slightest spark of news value or relevance.

What I would like to know is whether this is a proper use of court evidence, seized by the state by force, already fully investigated, apparently stolen by bad faith employees, and now received by the BBC? Or bought by them? They do not say whether any money changed hands.

Are you going to issue a press release in relation to this? You are the main authority on the topic of PIE.

Commenting on a story that is already getting attention gives you a greater chance of being published, especially if the media are looking for relevant comments. Mu did this with MAP Camp, leading to us being quoted by syndicated national US media. Of course, most of the time we are simply ignored.

I suggest writing your thoughts succinctly, without too much literary flair, and publishing them as a press release on your blog. If you don’t want to post a press release on your own blog, we can publish it on Mu. After you’ve published your article, send e-mails to the major UK commentators and newspapers with an easily quotable summary of your thoughts and a link to your press release.

I thought about writing a response to the BBC story myself. Unfortunately, the PIE stuff happened way before my time. Renton and friends ignored Mu’s e-mail offering to talk with them as representatives of a modern pro-pedophile organization, but I’m sure they’d be much more interested in what you have to say.

If you want to keep the issue relevant in the news cycle, it would be better to publish an initial press release ASAP, and then another when the final podcast episodes are released. You could even post multiple articles over a period of time to keep the story fresh. It might garner some attention given the weight your name carries, and that would give us greater control over the narrative. This of course depends on how much you want to amplify the story.

I do suggest being moderate in your coverage. The discussion about Napier didn’t show him in the best light, if the claims can be taken at face value. We can admit this, criticizing the parts that were clearly morally questionable, while also pointing out that the man was only in his 20s and boys were ultimately able to say no if they wanted.

However frequently you post on this issue, I recommend being short and sweet, and keeping the reading level accessible and quotable. A lot of pro-c MAP arguments go over most people’s heads. We really dial down the complexity in our own press releases.

Feel free to contact me by e-mail if you were hinting that you would like to continue this discussion privately.

Last edited 7 days ago by Brian Ribbon

I agree with Brian’s proposal for a response press release. Even though they will ignore it, it is necessary to document your objection and criticism, not only as a representative of the MAP community, but also as a participant in those events.

Last edited 7 days ago by Harlan

Definitions should be set in a way that they reflect our surrounding reality more accurately, and that help us understand it more clearly. In the end, all definitions are just conventions. Let’s see how we can apply that, in here.

women (biological ones, not trans ones) are nearly twice as likely as men to experience harmful side effects from drugs, a problem that may be ameliorated by reducing drug doses for females

This doesn’t make the case that “we should not call trans women as women”. In the quoted sentence, you are using females as a synonym of women, but you have not justified why you made that choice in the first place (or whoever wrote that sentence has not made such justification). It would make more sense to me to use male/female for the biological sex, and man/woman for the social/mental gender, rather than using those terms as synomnyms. If we use those terms as synonyms we lose the oportunity to distinguish between different realities, and that’s a shame. So, in that sentence, you replace “women” with “females” (or, “human females”, if you want), and you replace “men” with “males”, et voila. Problem solved.

After all, you mentioned that you would call a trans woman as woman from courtesy. I can think of other reasons: If you see a name like Amanda, you will want to assume she’s a woman, rather than having to ask every time, since it’s more convenient. But back to the courtesy stuff. If you are courteous, I assume you’ll want other people to be courteous too. So, from the habit, more and more people will call trans women as women. You see, in the end we will inevitably all end up doing that. As a matter of habit, convenience, empathy, inertia, naturality, courtesy, socialisation, etc.

I hope I clarified my position. Having said that, I think you are very brave and intellectually-curious to delve into such a complex topic such as gender. I like that in your blog you cover a broad range of topics that directly or indirectly affect children, and you cover them with a lot of thought and sensitivity.

If we use those terms as synonyms we lose the oportunity to distinguish between different realities, and that’s a shame

The same problem is with the word “children”, which is abused, portraying young people as stupid and obedient dogs.

The post speaks about the biological sex and the social construct of gender. Fine. But what distinguishes a trans male who does not want to undergo surgery or hormones, and a cis man who likes dressing as a woman? That’s why I miss a concept: sex identity (the mental biological configuration for male/female sex, i.e., your brain being permanently configured to believe that your body has opposite sex traits). Without that concept, I don’t think we can explain the transgender phenomenon with clarity. Interestingly, the post gives an implicit definition of “transgender”: “a deep feeling that their minds and souls are of the opposite sex to that of their bodies“. This implies that there exist a sex identity in the mind, that differs from both gender and sex.

Isn’t it always only the masculinisation of the fetus or lack-of? I (know nothing about this but) thought all fetuses “start” as females (or at least femine) and then the masculinisation kicks in… and it is exactly during this process when all the sexuality or gender related shit happens. 🙂

… I have no problem with using a transwoman’s preferred pronouns and, as a courtesy, behaving in her company as though she is indeed a woman.

I also have no problems with pronouns, except for one case where, for some reason, people want to be addressed as “They/Them”. Probably, porn with a non-binary person should then be in the “threesome” category, lol (sarcasm).

Bisexuals may also have a fluid or dominant preference, but they do not call themselves “non-binary sexual”, “demisexual”, or “sexualfluid”. All of these forms of bisexuality are contained within one single term “Bisexual”. Based on this, I believe that the term “Bigender” already includes this entire “non-binary” vocabulary in the same way and there is no point in using the pronouns “They/Them”.

Unfortunately, many transgender people see this proposal as an attack on their acceptance rather than a simple streamlining of terminology.

Last edited 12 days ago by Harlan

our pronouns are Pedo/chomo /n****. nope, we dont want to be called that. just call me hebe/ephebo. i long for the day hate crimes include calling people names for having younger partners!!

Great post summarizing it all, Tom.

Not reading anything from Rowling myself, and not interested much about her public statements, I really enjoyed the podcast serie with her called The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling from The Free Press. I felt it was very well done, and so easy to listen to. Highly recommended for anyone who would like to try understand Rowling a bit:

https://www.thefp.com/s/the-witch-trials-of-jk-rowling

In the wrong trouser leg here Tom. Stop mentioning trans, focus on MAP. What we all really care about is greater rights for MAPs. In chasing extreme left wing hot button issues, you only damage the case for MAPs.

However, I really liked “nature’s queerness”. I think this is profound. I think in many ways nature is incredibly queer, and things happen that we could never have suspected nor imagined possible. Also, people in general are incredibly queer as well. There’s obviously a queer spectrum, a bit like the autistic spectrum. We’re all on it somewhere.

Think of it this way – anyone seeking evidence that all trans are actually groomers and pedos will be dissapointed if they find this article… so, Tom is actually helping the trans case :).

Oh ok, yeah I understand 🙂

At a certain point such “rights” talk swiftly sounds just strident and awful..When i behold a.small being in all its terrible, bewildered glory the very last thing i ever think of is my “rights”

So, simple Lensman was half-right all along, paraphrased, “Consenting Creatures’?

E.G. Taffy-shagging Lambs/Hoggets are ‘WHAAL/Welsh Human Attracted Adolescent Lambs either F or M. Hogget is a term for a sheep of either sex having no more than two permanent incisors in wear, or its meat. In the UK, it means animals that are 11 to 24 months old, while Australian butchers use the term for animals that are 13 to 24 months old. Still common in farming usage and among specialty butchers, it is now a rare term in British, Australian and New Zealand supermarkets, where meat of all sheep less than two years old tends to be called “lamb”.

Finally free of defunct Anglo Victorian sacred so called ‘Sex-Laws’, Human AAMs can now choose any which way up,down, in or out, shake it all about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_and_mutton

Last edited 12 days ago by HappyHumpingPup

It’s interesting to see a well-evidenced article in support of a case I disagree with. In the end, though, I wasn’t convinced, and remain very much on the “room for both definitions in the dictionary” side. Working out what the evidence actually means, and whether the path from there to the conclusion is sound, can still leave plenty of room for argument! In several places, you mention the case against your thesis, but without, I feel, fully factoring it into the conclusion, while placing more weight on evidence presented for your case than it will really bear.

For instance, the point about clarity is supported by the evidence that “women (biological ones, not trans ones) are nearly twice as likely as men to experience harmful side effects from drugs”. But what is the support for the parenthesis? It’s an empirical question. Both women and men (in your biological sense) will have a wide and overlapping range of body builds and of susceptibilities. It is at least a plausible hypothesis that trans women will tend toward the male end of the scale on that. Has the research been done? Also, the connection with ‘biology’ is not as clear and simple as you imply, with considerable recent dispute about the extent to which social factors contribute. For instance, part of the effect may be due to differences in usage of medications.

One point on which the research seems not to have been done is the ‘risk’ from puberty blockers. At least that was what I gleaned from summaries of Cass. The word ‘risky’, like ‘woman’, may hide a range of meanings. That’s just what language is like. As far as I could see, Cass found little or no evidence that puberty blockers are actually dangerous, as some commentators with axes to grind have sought to imply, just insufficient evidence for today’s very cautious standards that they are not.

On the other hand, as you pointed out, but maybe didn’t really draw out, they do have the substantial benefit of buying time to choose. I very much regret the increasing tendency for policy makers during my lifetime to regard people as medical subjects ruled by statistics, rather than individuals free to make mistakes, especially reversible mistakes. Including children: the Gillick judgement shows the way here, and should apply in cases of gender dysphoria as much as in any others.

Not that disagreeing with the statistics necessarily is a mistake. People may well be right about themselves, and the statistics about some average person over-simplified and rigidly misapplied. In another context (geriatric care), I’ve been dealing with this a lot recently.

Very nice, though, to see the virtuoso range of knowledge on display above, from De Beauvoir to Diamond. Bravo!

So OldFogeyNose (cool handle) has drawn attention to something that yrs truly, in his enthusiasm, managed somehow to largely bypass – that concern addressed in TO’C’s following paragraph:

WHAT IS A WOMAN?
There is one further linguistic abstraction I should touch upon, though, at least briefly: polysemy, the ability of words to have several valid meanings. I had a long email debate last year with a philosopher friend who holds the view (which is orthodox in itself but susceptible to being taken too far) that words mean whatever a significant number of their users intend them to mean, or even a single user, such as a famous podcaster, if their newly coined meaning of a word goes viral. Dictionaries reflect this. The definitions they give do not come from an academic ivory tower. They are based on actual usage by speakers and writers of the language in question”

I would zero in on “…but susceptible to being taken too far” Who or what could, or would, deternine as much, given that “too far” presumes something effectively measurable? And what would be not taken far enough?

Presumably, if even two speakers concur that such and such a sign/gesture defers further conflict over the significance (= sacrality) of whichever thing is being pointed to, we have a meaning established, for do we not?

What does this ‘new sign” then have to do with the ‘old sign” from which it takes its leave? Has the thing to which it originally referred changed in some way? What can it really mean to “consider (something) in the abstract”? Does the referent/thing then conveniently disappear while our deliberations proceed? Or what?

Philosophy cannot begin to deal with such, helplessly believing as philosophy does that ideas exist independently somehow of the signs with which we express them

Take the word “paedophile” as an example. I think a significant number of their users have taken the meaning of this word “too far”. One would almost be afraid to publicly declare it about oneself, these days 🙂

A perfect example has just been let through by Unherd, where, midstream, this ex-police officer author let’s loose with “organised paedophile networks operating in plain sight” I waded staright in and demanded to know what any of the rape gang activity had to do with paedophilia, per se, but my comment will doubtless be spurlos verschwunden before the sun even crosses the yardarm. Once again, why aren’t you all there, setting things to rights?

https://unherd.com/2025/01/why-the-police-ignored-the-rape-gangs/

…Cass found little or no evidence that puberty blockers are actually dangerous

On the other hand… they do have the substantial benefit of buying time to choose.

Using puberty blockers will not make the penis disappear, it will still need to be hidden under clothing. Breasts can also be hidden with special compression clothing. IMO there is no need to delay the appearance of secondary sexual characteristics. Maintaining a masculine/feminine style in accordance with gender identity is enough to decide whether it is necessary to undertake something more radical.

Hmmm… I don’t think that keeping both definitions is a good option, since they are not compatible. A transwoman is a woman according to one definition, and a man according to the other definition. It brings even more confusion to the scene.

As I suggested in another comment, I think that man/woman should refer to the menal identity of sex, and male/female should refer to the biological sex. In my opinion, this is the option that better reflects our reality and that better helps understand it.

On definition of ‘woman’
>I am puzzled that you think I disagree.

I take the whole ‘clarity’ argument to be disagreement. I think it is a red herring. Loads of words have a range of meanings. Where it matters, for instance when taking a medical history, we can use additional words to clarify. Where it doesn’t, for instance deciding which ‘bathroom’ to use, we don’t need to. ‘In every respect’ is irrelevant. Words are not mathematical symbols, and just don’t work that way.

If a trans woman refuses to clarify when giving a medical history, then they are an idiot, but the situation is hardly unique. There are plenty of ways of giving a misleading impression, by accident or through squeamishness or whatever, and regarding other aspects of the same history, it would be equally misleading for them to simply say they were a man.

Meanings of words aren’t chosen as a matter of policy. They simply record usage. If one uses a word in a new sense, and is understood, then it has that meaning, even if what one said is that one wishes it didn’t!

On ‘women (biological not trans) are twice as likely to experience side effects’, you say “health messaging needs to reflect this clearly.” But I just can’t see the problem. Trans women know their own history. Anyway this whole idea of ‘clear messaging’ strongly tends into the sort of rigid misapplication of statistics I mentioned earlier.

On puberty blockers and harm, I think you and Cass are taking account of largely speculative harms, like not having a ‘normal’ childhood, or the possibility there might be some unknown physical effects in later life if the person changes their mind and discontinues treatment, while ignoring quite well established harms from not taking them, such as increased depression and suicidality — quite apart from the general benefits of delaying puberty, which alone might be enough to counterbalance any later side effects even if there turn out to be any. The reason it has become an issue is political, not medical, and the choice of which harms are to be hyper-cautiously avoided or studiously ignored is based on the promotion of a particular, social conservative idea of normality.

Wow and triple wow..i am awed by what you have composed and achieved there. Tom, what you have delivered us with such dazzlingly sustained precision. Gigantic, Godzillian salute from Turrrp.

And j can see the Guardian headline already:

IN SURPRISE MOVE, FORMER PAEDOPHILE INFORMATION EXCHANGE (PIE) MAN TOM O’CARROLL RETIRNS TO CLEAR UP THE CONCEPTUAL CONFUSION

I will link every soul on earth with this one who has not yet excommunicated me

Thankyou Tom

Last edited 13 days ago by Warbling J Turpitude
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