Towards the aetiology of paedophobia

Heretic TOC began an exploration of deep waters recently in Whither the punitive state?, which delved into some fundamental questions about the kind of society we are and how we might live better. A lively debate ensued. One contributor, Lensman, outlined a green vision of the future. As I requested, he now takes this further in the first of two guest blogs. He begins with an analysis of our present situation, especially the economic context of paedophobia*; his second piece will set us upon a Deep Green course.    
Lensman tells me he is a “psychogeographer” and artist, whose work is informed by such issues as stigma, alienation and longing. He is an avid reader, music-lover, an intrepid explorer of the shabby edges of cities, friend to fungi and an all-round culture vulture. He writes the occasional short story, essay, and poem. Growing up in a political family taught him early on the value of discussion, debate and critical thinking. At the same time, a childhood spent living in, playing in and exploring wild places has nurtured a life-long interest in natural history, science and ecology.
 
My first inkling that not all societies were paedophobic came in my mid-teens when I read Humbert Humbert’s observation of how “Lepcha old men of eighty copulate with girls of eight, and nobody minds”. Later, as a student, I read accounts of sex-positive societies in the writings of anthropologists such as Bronislaw Malinowski, Margaret Mead and Claude Levi-Strauss, and the observations of explorers such as Captain Cook’s in Tahiti. More recently I have discovered the “Growing Up Sexually” corpus: a compendious thesaurus of the sex-lives of children in a wide variety of cultures.
From which it seems clear that whilst there have been many societies that have accepted child sexuality and child-adult sexual relationships, none of these have been capitalist.
Working out why should be a priority for the heretical community, since how can we propose a cure without some understanding of the disease? Indeed, so long as we don’t address the aetiology of paedophobia we’re tacitly conceding that the problem lies in us, not in those who fear us.
I will argue that   paedophobia is an unintended consequence of a range of economic factors that occur under what, for brevity’s sake, I’ll call “Capitalism” (but which might include Industrialism, Urbanism, Consumerism, and even Industrial Communism).
However, saying that capitalism causes paedophobia is a bit like saying puberty causes pregnancy: the grain of truth in the statement is overwhelmed by the many contingencies which separate the cause from the effect. The challenge is to fill in the gaps: what exactly connects an abstraction like “capitalism” to the attitude of someone who refuses to let his daughter walk to school because of Stranger Danger?
“Attitudes” may be understood as attempts by individuals to make sense of the “givens” of their world, their culture and their personal circumstances. Living in harmony with these “givens” generally makes for an easier, more successful life. Consequently “attitudes” will tend to converge according to a population’s circumstances, culture and interests.
The following are some of the “givens” of capitalism that tend towards paedophobic attitudes.
The Nuclear Family
The nuclear family solves capitalism’s need for a mobile and flexible work force. Under consumer capitalism a wage earner may have to change job and move house three, four or five times during his working life, taking his family with him. A cheaper and easier task if that family is small.
Nuclear families tend to implant themselves into a “place” but not into a “community”. Neighbours are often barely on nodding acquaintance with each other and may change so often that efforts to socialise may seem hardly worth the trouble. The child has to adapt and form its personality in relation to only one or two people. Consequently, parents become as emotionally dependent on their children as the children are on their parents, creating very intense, exclusive relationships and a strong sense of possessiveness in the parents. The child has only “one basket” in which to put all its “emotional eggs”. A considerable burden is placed on very few relationships, especially in single-parent families, which are becoming all the more common as the nuclear family is put under more stress.
Children can’t opt out of the parent-child relationship as they can with non-familial relationships.
There is greater asymmetry in the child-parent relationship than with non-familial adults. Many paedophiles who are also parents will have experienced the different quality of relationship one shares with a child-friend and with one’s own children – the former, at its best, feels “equal”, the latter not.
A society’s predominant family structure will deeply entrench and perpetuate its conception of childhood since the family is where we learn our most fundamental concepts of kinship, love, intimacy, privacy, authority, etc.
Where have the children gone?
Over the past three or four decades children have disappeared from public spaces. Allowing one’s child to roam unsupervised is now considered to be a sign of bad parenting, and children who enjoy this freedom are demonised as “feral”. The growth of suburban housing means that children’s outdoor play now takes place in private gardens, fenced-off from the wider community.
This is understandable when one considers the extent to which cars have appropriated public space making it dangerous and unpleasant. This has led to many children only ever venturing into public space in a car, their parents trading their child’s security against an increased danger to others (the “school-run” paradox).
There are also major changes in the nature of Play: the explosion of screen-based home entertainment, and a children’s leisure industry that is usually indoors and highly supervised.
The nuclear family’s tendency to miniaturise and sequester resources has impacted on communal resources such as village water pumps, traditionally, and more recently libraries, markets, laundrettes, cinemas, concerts, playing fields, public transport, etc.
As children (and adults) have disappeared from public spaces so has the fear of public spaces increased – adults are now as afraid of interacting with unknown children as children are of unknown adults.
Probably the most significant factor is the exclusion of children from the workplace. Pre-industrial families expected children to contribute their labour to the family finances, and it was often necessary for children as young as six to work in the same factories as their parents to make ends meet. Child-labour has more or less disappeared from the West.
Education
Schools are a major factor in removing children from the community. School reflects wider society in that all its child-adult interactions are defined by the adult’s role, providing little opportunity for intense, free, emotional, engagement with the child, this now being the exclusive preserve of the nuclear family (it could be argued that teachers, when in loco parentis, are subject to the same incest taboo as applies to biological parents).
Capitalism’s demand for a highly educated workforce, based on rapid technological changes, the growing workplace requirement for interpersonal and communication skills and the reduced number of unskilled jobs (due to outsourcing to poorer countries), has led to a prolongation of education. The UK has seen a ten-fold increase in participation in higher education between 1950 and 2000.
Given that one of the criteria of “adulthood” is “entry into the world of work”, this contributes to a prolongation of the concept of childhood (could the current panic about “campus rape” and “enhanced consent” be a sign of the infantilisation of this age-group? That society feels, deep down, that the current age of consent is too low?)
Privacy
With increasing affluence there’s been both a steady increase in the size of homes and a decrease in the size of the family. This has largely put an end to communal sleeping. Till recently children would share a bedroom, and sometimes a bed, into late childhood. All but the wealthiest families would sleep communally. This was one of the causes of the moral panic surrounding slum housing in 19th century Britain: reformers realised that such sleeping arrangements carried with them a high risk of “premature sexualisation”.
The Innocent Child archetype
The above factors create a situation where the only intense relationships children can have with adults are with their parents (and other adults to whom the incest taboo applies, such as grandparents, uncles, older siblings etc).
The de-sexualisation of children is essential if the incest taboo is not to disrupt the nuclear family. The intimacy of parenthood combined with the authority, control and exclusivity parents hold over pre-adolescent children means that if children were to be understood as sexual it would create too many desires, conflicts, jealousies, anxieties, etc. for the family to function. The pressure cooker that is already the nuclear family would explode.
As there are no outlets for children’s sexuality other than with parents or siblings it is better that such sexuality be discouraged and repressed. Likewise, teenagers’ sexuality only becomes tolerated once they have the social skills and independence to take that sexuality outside the orbit of the home.
There are, of course, a child’s peers. Inter-child sexuality has been grudgingly tolerated in capitalist societies during periods of enlightenment, though usually defused by labelling it as “play” or “curiosity” rather than “desire” or “pleasure”. However consumer capitalism seems to be withdrawing even that tolerance.
The question is whether a paradigm which conceives of the child as actively sexual can work in the closed, emotionally intense context of the nuclear family, especially a child who, for the first six or seven years of its life, is not quite old enough to have entirely internalised sexual shame. The Innocent Child archetype protects the family, not the child.
It may also be that parents subconsciously fear their child’s reciprocal and exclusive love may be diverted towards someone who, not restricted by the incest taboo, is able to offer a kind of love forbidden the parents. A fear maybe that finds its most potent embodiment in “the paedophile”.
The Consumer Child
It’s no coincidence that virulent paedophobia emerged in the UK in the late 70s and 80s – a period when, under Thatcherism, a paradigm shift occurred in the way capitalism understood itself:  the UK became a “property-owning democracy” and “citizens” were replaced by “consumers”. Manufacturing industries were symbolically defeated and emasculated, having already lost a great deal of their importance through increased outsourcing of work to poorer countries and importation of manufactured goods.
In the previous decade capitalism had seemed in crisis: the essential needs of the family (food, clothing, housing) were being met by a smaller and smaller proportion of the family’s income and the necessity of the “work and spend” paradigm was increasingly called into question – most notably by the counter-cultural movements of the 60s.  (Statistics for the USA show that in 1901 80% of an average family’s income was spent on food, housing and clothing; by 2003 only 49%.)
Capitalism’s dependence on growth meant that it had to employ some motivation other than “necessity” for keeping us working and spending.  Consumerism achieves this by getting us to work as much for the satisfaction of fabricated “wants” as “needs”.
Children are first of all consumers through the intermediary of their parents. But children will also become the consumers of tomorrow and so must be educated into the right mind-set. This process starts early – and is probably most visible in how, early in the 19th century, Christmas changed from being a festival of communal feasting to one centred round the buying and giving of gifts. Can anyone who has witnessed the frenzied avidity of children in the run-up to Christmas doubt its effectiveness as a teacher of consumer values?
Our culture, dense with marketing, advertising, product placement and countless other strategies, creates a paradigm in which activities connected with consumption are labelled as “cool”, whilst low-consumption, community or nature-based activities (twitching, train-spotting, reading, nature study, scouting, etc.) are labelled as “nerdy”, “sad” or “uncool”. A child learns that fulfilment comes from what one owns, not from one’s relationships with others and the world.
And the most potent marketing tool is, of course, sex. Commercial popular culture, like the tobacco industry, whilst paying lip-service to age-limits in the targeting of its products, knows that the game is won by those who “catch them early”.
It may seem odd for a paedophile to appear to be criticising the sexualisation of children. Well, I’d argue that consumer sexualisation is a distortion of child sexuality: targeting especially little girls and teaching them that they are attractive in proportion to how much they spend on, or have done to, themselves.
The Toddlers-in-Tiaras child is a telling archetype of this – a child who has adopted the most extreme sexual paraphernalia of womanhood. This archetype is in conflict with the more established Innocent Child archetype outlined in the previous section, the conflict mitigated by it being a sexuality of display and disguise, which demands spectators rather than participants.
(Compare this to another archetype: the Wild Child – Huckleberry Finn, Pippi Longstocking, the children in Sally Mann’s Immediate Family – whose identities come from their relationships to others and to nature, whose nails are more likely to be broken than manicured, whose clothes, if worn at all, are torn and dirty from falling out of trees and playing in the mud.)
This conflict between the Innocent Child archetype and the need to access new markets and educate new consumers seems inherent within consumer capitalism and creates a perception amongst parents that their children are being “sexualised” against their (the parents’) will by forces beyond their control (popular culture, television, internet, fashion and pornography). Such fears, rather than being directed against something as nebulous as an “economic system” (an economic system that most adults are otherwise happy with and culturally embedded in) are perhaps more easily projected onto paedophiles.
Conclusion
At the start of this essay I suggested that, for the heretical community, working out why paedophilia is so feared and reviled must be the first step towards finding a stratagem which might lead to an improvement in our situation, and that of children.
My hypothesis has been that a society’s acceptance of child sexuality is a function of (1) how well integrated its children are within a wide-ranging communal life; and (2) what proportion of adult-child emotional relationships involve adults covered by the incest taboo. Paedophobia is a result of societies where children are effectively isolated in relationships that thrive only if those children are considered as asexual.
A non-systematic perusal of the Growing up Sexually corpus seems to confirm the general drift of this hypothesis, whilst supplying enough counter-examples to undermine any hopes of it being a complete explanation. Undoubtedly, culture has a part to play: have contemporary Tahitians preserved anything of the sex-positive attitudes that Captain Cook witnessed? If not, were they lost because of the imposition of Western values or because of the economic and structural changes colonisation brought with it? Such questions arise at every turn.
But I hope the explanation I have outlined represents a start, or at least indicates the kind of questions we should be asking.
If all the above factors do amount to an explanation for paedophobic attitudes in the West, if paedophobia is deeply embedded in the most fundamental structures of our society, then the question becomes “what next?” Does a fundamental restructuring of society have to take place before things improve?
I suspect that the solution already exists amongst the political options available in the West, (though, understandably, the pro-child-sexuality aspect of it is one that has been suppressed in recent decades). That solution is, I believe, to be found in the Deep Green vision of society and economics.
 
* Lensman and I are both uneasy about this term. It implies that those who have a problem with paedophilia are not right in the head. This may actually be true to the extent that fear of paedophilia is indeed irrational; but, like comparable forms of pathologising (“homophobia”, “Islamophobia”), it runs the risk of dismissing people’s views without addressing their arguments; it may amount merely to name-calling against those who disagree with us. The word is used here and in Lensman’s article really just as a convenient shorthand for “hyper-hostile anti-paedophilia”, an attitude fostered by a set of social and economic conditions rather than an individual’s mental illness.
 
 
 

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

120 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Ethics of Paradise

Reblogged this on Ethics of Paradise.

Cyril

[…] my blog-posts Towards the aetiology of paedophobia and The Consumer Child – Part 1 I outline the idea that the causes of paedophobia lie in deep […]

[…] família é uma necessidade social, […]

[…] A família deve ser abolida. Amém. […]

[…] into more immediate prominence, yoked into service as guest blogs in their own right. One of these, Towards the aetiology of paedophobia, turned out to be the first of a magnificent trio by Lensman (who now has his own excellent blog, […]

lensman

Reblogged this on Consenting Adults Humans and commented:
I was flattered when Tom O’Carroll invited me to write an essay elaborating on comments I’d made on his post (February 2015) “Whither the punitive state? Whither go we?”, comments which explored the idea that economic factors could be the real cause of paedophobia.
The resulting essay was far too long for a blog and Tom generously suggested that it be split and posted as two separate essays. What follows is the first part.
My thanks to Tom for all the encouragement, guidance and support he gave me in the writing of these essays. Tom’s book “Paedophilia: The Radical Case” had a huge impact on me when I was a lonely student, struggling to make sense of my love and desires – so writing for, and communicating with, Tom felt very special for me.

beyourselfunless

Reblogged this on beyourselfunless and commented:
Looking at the link between pedophobia and capitalism

[…] to question the wisdom of global market capitalism – Lensman’s recent articles here on the aetiology of paedophobia, and our Deep Green future have added to what is becoming a vast […]

justdamnbirds

I would just like to know why a sexual relationship with someone who is not sexually mature and whose brain is in a developing stage should be considered okay and natural. Shouldn’t there be an equality between partners? How can it be considered consent when it’s so easy for an adult to manipulate a child? These are not just gut-feeling objections.

justdamnbirds

H-TOC? Could you provide a link?

justdamnbirds

That is to say, I’ve read a couple of articles on H-TOC and haven’t seen an answer to my questions. Maybe you could help me.

Cyril

First, there is the phenomenon of pubertas precox, children may have pubic hair and moustaches at the age of six — sexual maturity means nothing. Second, the brain develops (i.e., changes) throughout life, but it does not mean that sex must be forbidden for adults too.
Adults can also be manipulated, aren’t they? There must be no democracy because citizens are manipulated by politicians. There must be no market because buyers are manipulated by ads. There must be no law because judges and jury are manipulated by lawyers. There must be no medicine because patients are manipulated by psychiatrists.
According to Everett Shostrom, adults can be manipulated by children too. But no manipulation can make the child eat vegetables, no manipulation could make the child drop onanism in Victorian times. That’s why consent is totally possible from the child’s side.

lordplatania

Thank You very much
This summer i will go to London

lordplatania

I love your posts and ideology. Congratulations, I’m a Magpie a PIE’s lover

[…] recent guest blog Towards the aetiology of paedophobia explored some fundamental aspects of society and where modern living has gone badly wrong, in […]

Lensman

reply to Josh ( https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2015/04/26/towards-the-aetiology-of-paedophobia/?replytocom=7874#comment-7874 )
But ‘attitudes’ only really start to explain anything when one asks the question “why do certain attitudes prosper at certain times and in certain contexts whereas others don’t”. After all there are a huge range of attitudes available to be thought and held, but only some prosper. When an attitude becomes a mass phenomena it is best addressed as such rather than getting too bogged down in the content of those attitudes.
It’s probably a bit condescending of me to say this, but in my experience most ‘antis’ really don’t have a particularly clear idea why they are ‘anti’ – if you engage in a discussion with (especially) the most virulent amongst them their ‘house of cards’ collapses shockingly quickly. Their attitudes are not about ‘content’ but about something deeper.
What antis do have is a very strong ‘gut feeling’ – they just know paedophilia is wrong – and any thinking or reasoning they do is a scramble to find reasons for justifying this gut feeling. This ‘gut feeling’ is interesting. I suspect that it represents an emotional manifestation of a quite rational process of intuition – the perception that, in the context of their society, paedophilia is like is like a square peg wanting to fit into a round hole. It doesn’t ‘fit’. It is ‘matter out of place’ in the ‘Mary Douglas’ sense ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_and_Danger ) – their conception of the world just doesn’t permit the slotting in of consensual child-adult sexuality without huge damage being done to their beliefs about childhood, sexuality, society, family and kinship.
Maybe humans, as intensely social animals, are very good at spotting such social dissonance. It could be argued that ‘radical’ moslems with their hatred of homosexuals and acceptance of child marriage and the hippies of the 60, who seemed generally accepting of child sexuality and intergenerational sex , are/were both dreaming (or should that be ‘nightmaring’ in the case of moslems?) of a new and different social structure and correctly perceived through this social ‘gut instinct’ what sex roles would and would not be congruent in their respective dream societies?

Jasmine

“What antis do have is a very strong ‘gut feeling’ – they just know paedophilia is wrong – and any thinking or reasoning they do is a scramble to find reasons for justifying this gut feeling.”
To be fair, that’s how most moral philosophy (and many other types of philosophy, too) works. People take their instincts and then try to build up rational frameworks that underpin and justify them.
The problems only start when you find that your intuitions are firing off conflicting signals. In this case, paedophilia=bad is conflicting with liberty=good. I think how most normal people resolve such a conflict is by deciding that one instinct is of superior importance and trumps the other. Most nons will have paedophilia=bad trump. Some libertarians have liberty=good trump.
Of course, it probably all looks silly/annoying to the paedophiles who have no paedophilia=bad instinct to begin with (though I suspect that the self-loathing types either start off with one or internalise it from the nons around them).
(As a Preference Utilitarian, for me, preference/desire-fulfillment trumps.)

mr pedo-man

paedophilia=bad is conflicting with liberty=good…Or the fear of too much Libertarianism= The Strong impose themselves onto the weak; That’s the impression I got from that video I uploaded above: Of course that’s flawed; It assumes the strong will always use intimidation or force, which is incorrect.
I could get myself a nice Filipino Girlfriend( barely legal) There would be a huge economic difference…Also I like Judo, and I like to go to my gym and Dead-lift (all body exercise, If your a Gym virgin) So huge physical difference.
Yet that’s legal, And as Sean Gabb said — Most people are altruistic ,so the paedophilia=Bad is a kind of Prima Facie

Cyril

›MOST ‘ANTIS’ REALLY DON’T HAVE A PARTICULARLY CLEAR IDEA WHY THEY ARE ‘ANTI’… WHAT ANTIS DO HAVE IS A VERY STRONG ‘GUT FEELING’‹
Here are possible historical parallels of modern paedophobia, especially the Satanic ritual abuse moral panic: http://files.ncas.org/condon/text/s6chap03.htm#s4 — eating disorders and decreased immunity in the “victims of CSA” may be similar to the June Bug mass hysteria.

mr pedo-man

This was quite an interesting discussion on victimless crimes on Radio four:
The moral maze…The P.I.E Gets mentioned at 32.00 In a conversation with Dr Sean Gabb, From the Libertarian Alliance, Good fellow, He was banned from speaking at a UKIP meeting, Because he defended peoples freedom to look at child porn: The argument he made was a valid one, If the image was created in say, Thailand, then that’s a problem for the Thai police, Of course that’s just one of many arguments for people to view WTF they like.
Though on here he didn’t defend ‘sex with kids’ using the usual ‘consenting adults’ argument. He mentions before 1914 there were very few laws governing society; And society didn’t slip into the abyss…But also most of the 1800s In the UK the AOC was 12 I believe, Raised by feminist puritanical-prudes.
Maybe next time on the Moral Maze, They should discuss freedom of expression and invite Tom himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-jhipISxo0

mr pedo-man

Has anybody seen the documentary: Reggie Yates Extreme Russia..Its a three part documentary — The first was about the far right, Second was homophobia Its a similar situation here in the UK with the pedo-hunters; Over there, Its the homos, But children are always used to justify the harsh treatment of homosexuals there…Recruiting kids, The same fears used here before 1967
But the main interest for people like us it the third documentary: Russia’s teenage models — Where it seems he suffers some cognitive dissonance; Yet he’s fast to pass judgement on the homophobes, yet, fails to recognise his own cultural bias — What got me thinking about that was the blog by dissident,about the Japanese idolising that cute English girl, Whose taken up singing — The third part of Reggie Yates Extreme Russia is repeated on BBC 3 at ten o’clock tonight.

Linca

OMG Lensman you have made this so complicated. When people make things complicated I get suspicious/turned off.
The God Damned Puritan Bankers have fu*ked us over preaching pure while robbing us blind for their benefit. They are getting paid interest on every dollar that exists. Imagine how much that is. It is pretty much that simple. Reject them, take their power to create money away from them then they will have no power over us. They won’t be able to buy legislators or congressmen any more.
It is pretty much that simple.
Love,
Linca

Jasmine

To be honest, I tend to have the opposite instinct. The world is made up of complicated, inter-locking systems. I tend to be suspicious of any large-scale solutions that seem too simple – like fixing a watch that’s an hour fast using a sledgehammer.
Of course, complication for the sake of complication is terrible and obfuscation hides idiocy. I’ve read enough continental & postmodernist philosophy and feminist & socialist theory to notice this. Luckily, Lensman doesn’t seem to be obfuscating anything. It’s complicated, but not because he’s trying to hide something.

Lensman

Oh, Linca! I wish you’d told me all this before I started work on this essay – it would have spared me hours of work!
Anyway, don’t worry – be assured that next time I meet a banker I’ll most definitely reject him!
love
Lensman

Dissident

Very awesome post, my fav intergalactic peacekeeper 🙂
Once again, a post here displays to me what an intellectual lightweight I am in company like this. And I learn a lot from those who have insights into important matters that I could never myself discern.
I do agree that the development of capitalism to the point where the Industrial Revolution occurred had much to do with the loss of rights for younger people and the creation of the paradigm of the Innocent Child (and, eventually the related paradigm of the Exploited Child) that began in the last few decades of the 19th century and continues into the present, the third decade of the 21st. The creation of the insular nuclear family unit, the near-complete removal of younger people (including even mid-aged adolescents) from both the labor force and the political arena, and the many benefits to adults in positions of power that the imposition of asexuality on children and young teens brings in a system that thrives on hierarchy rather than egalitarianism all make a lot of sense.
With that said, do I agree with a Deep Green economic vision of society? That depends exactly on what you mean by that. I will make this point so my own stance as a socialist is made clear: I do not believe it’s either possible, let alone desirable or necessary, to return to a simpler and more austere way of life, and a large abandonment of the technological comforts we enjoy today, in order to return to a form of communal living and harmony with the natural world. I believe it’s the economic framework of modern industry that creates the rampant, out-of-control consumerism and need for “growth” that is harming the world so badly today, not industrial society in and of itself.
For that reason, I do not support any ideology whose goal is to simply “tame” capitalism or attempt to rein it back into a previous, simpler version of itself, while basically leaving class divisions and production for profit intact. I’m for ending production for profit, money, and class divisions altogether, and replacing it with an egalitarian system of production simply to serve human wants and needs. This would effectively end the problem of producing huge amounts of junk that serve no purpose of any sort; completely put paid to the enormous waste that capitalism creates with its planned obsolescence of technology; and end the type of rivalry over private control of resources that leads to warfare, instead focusing on a generous sharing of the bounty modern production can currently produce; and rational use of it without bleeding the world’s resources dry via strip-mining, deforestation, etc. Going into this in any more depth would be really skirting off-topic, but know there is much more than can be said about this.
It should also be mentioned that the current platform of youth liberation will likely play a huge part in the future relevance of MAPs and pedophilia/hebephilia as a “social concern.” This will likely be the case regardless of the economic framework, since a growing number of anarcho-capitalists and conservatives are beginning to embrace the youth lib platform. Granted, the majority of each are not keen on intergenerational romance (to say the least!), but the burgeoning support for youth suffrage, right to work, right to choosing their own form of education, freedom of speech, and right to directly enter the political process is a factor that looks as if it’s likely to achieve support that spans the entire political spectrum in the future.
This, I’m sure you know, is not intended as a defense of capitalism (you know me better than that! LOL!). It’s simply to mention that the concept of youth rights and its future status as a likely force to be reckoned with is another consideration we need to take into account. It’s true many capitalist-supporters may only be embracing youth liberation for the same basic economic reasons that the factory-oriented North of the 19th century eventually came to oppose the chattel slavery of the plantation-oriented economy of the South. Nevertheless, this movement, despite being in its relatively early days (after beginning in the 1970s and being waylaid during the 1980s and early ’90s), will almost certainly be a decisive factor in how younger people will be conceptualized in the future, regardless of what the economic system may be.

Jasmine

“the present, the third decade of the 21st [century]”
Won’t the third decade of this century start on the 1st of January, 2021? Is this a typo, did I read wrong, or am I missing something?
“the many benefits to adults in positions of power that the imposition of asexuality on children and young teens”
I get that there are benefits to disenfranchisement but why to asexuality? For decades, White Americans believed African Americans were hyper-sexual but that didn’t make disenfranchisement any more difficult. Can you give examples of these benefits?
(My guess is that the current innocence culture has occurred without anyone specifically desiring or benefiting from it. That it’s simply the intersection of irrationality and social incentives like the ones mentioned in Lensman’s post. Quite willing to be disproven.)
“I do not believe it’s either possible, let alone desirable or necessary, to return to a simpler and more austere way of life, and a large abandonment of the technological comforts we enjoy today”
Huzzah! 🙂
“out-of-control consumerism and need for “growth” […] is harming the world so badly today”
Dammit! 🙁
“For that reason, I do not support any ideology whose goal is to simply “tame” capitalism or attempt to rein it back into a previous, simpler version of itself, while basically leaving class divisions and production for profit intact.”
I’m pretty sure that the Deep Green Resistance is more anarcho-primitivist than capitalist in nature, but I’m by no means an expert on their views so I’ll leave that to Lensman and his next post on the matter.
“the problem of producing huge amounts of junk that serve no purpose of any sort”
About a decade ago, I played with a wide variety of toys with flashing lights, spinning wheel, and coloured ribbons. They made whirring sounds that annoyed the hell out of my parents. These toys were pointless – they served no practical purpose. However, they were purchased because they were desired and I don’t think that’s regrettable. If anything, silly putty is the face of rampant consumerism and useless junk – and silly putty rocks!
“the concept of youth rights and its future status as a likely force to be reckoned with”
Speaking of which: do you know of any YR organisations that allow international participation?

Dissident

“the present, the third decade of the 21st [century]”
Won’t the third decade of this century start on the 1st of January, 2021? Is this a typo, did I read wrong, or am I missing something?

You caught a typo of mine! LOL!
“the many benefits to adults in positions of power that the imposition of asexuality on children and young teens”
I get that there are benefits to disenfranchisement but why to asexuality? For decades, White Americans believed African Americans were hyper-sexual but that didn’t make disenfranchisement any more difficult. Can you give examples of these benefits?

Black adults were controlled and “kept in their place” in a different way than children currently are. Their situation is more similar to how women were once treated: Coddled and pampered, and basically treated as glorified pets, as opposed to beasts of burden. In this type of situation, both women (then) and children (now) were used to project the Christian cultural conception of Innocence upon. This provided more impetus to control and disenfranchise them at the same time they were often coddled and pampered.
Authorities of every kind have long known that when you control people’s sexuality, you control them. The Roman Catholic Church has long recognized this, and its control over the sex lives of both its clergy and its parishioners has always been a major focus of its hierarchical control apparatus over society. This is based on the traditionally Christian (and Islamic) notion that sexuality is inherently tainted and “dirty.” This is why those who are forced to personify the concept of Innocence are expected to be kept asexual.
With women, it was tolerated within the stricture of church-sanctioned marriage, but only for the necessary purpose of perpetuating the human species, and there were heavy taboos against engaging in the act for recreational reasons (this was the basis for the Church’s anti-contraception stance). Since children cannot typically reproduce, and the status of childhood has been extended to young adolescents in more recent times, this type of grudging situational tolerance for sexuality doesn’t apply to youths today as it once had to be given to women within the realm of marriage.
“I do not believe it’s either possible, let alone desirable or necessary, to return to a simpler and more austere way of life, and a large abandonment of the technological comforts we enjoy today”
Huzzah! 🙂

Wow! 🙂
“For that reason, I do not support any ideology whose goal is to simply “tame” capitalism or attempt to rein it back into a previous, simpler version of itself, while basically leaving class divisions and production for profit intact.”
I’m pretty sure that the Deep Green Resistance is more anarcho-primitivist than capitalist in nature, but I’m by no means an expert on their views so I’ll leave that to Lensman and his next post on the matter.

Again for the record, whether that is so or not, I do not believe it’s necessary to go back to some type of quasi-primitive level of living, and give up the comforts and benefits of technology altogether in order to restore human harmony with nature and to cease raping the planet and damaging the biosphere. These are all aspects of industrial production under capitalist conditions, i.e., production for profit and all that entails.
“the problem of producing huge amounts of junk that serve no purpose of any sort”
About a decade ago, I played with a wide variety of toys with flashing lights, spinning wheel, and coloured ribbons. They made whirring sounds that annoyed the hell out of my parents. These toys were pointless – they served no practical purpose. However, they were purchased because they were desired and I don’t think that’s regrettable. If anything, silly putty is the face of rampant consumerism and useless junk – and silly putty rocks!

I also think silly putty and play-doh are cool, btw! And I used to love all the Star Wars action figures and ships with flashing lights and multiple sounds I used to collect!
The thing is, this stuff only becomes a problem when it’s designed with planned obsolescence in mind, so that it’s supposed to break and be replaced every year or two, and designed so that it cannot be upgraded. Or that we’re convinced that we need a thousand variations on a single action figure, all of which are designed to get us to part with our money and consume first and foremost. We have to balance the desire to have cool stuff with reasonable frugality, otherwise we risk polluting the environment with needless debris. We likely wouldn’t desire so much of these novelty items if we didn’t have an advertising industry that’s designed to convince us that it’s “cool” to have a ton of junk in the first place. And the advertising industry is crucial to a market, consumerist culture. We may not regret all of this stuff, but in the long run, both our bank accounts and nature itself might if we feel compelled to overproduce.
“the concept of youth rights and its future status as a likely force to be reckoned with”
Speaking of which: do you know of any YR organisations that allow international participation?

Not yet, but stay tuned! New youth rights orgs are popping up all the time, with many of them now appearing on social networking sites like Facebook.

Jasmine

“The thing is, this stuff only becomes a problem when it’s designed with planned obsolescence in mind, so that it’s supposed to break and be replaced every year or two, and designed so that it cannot be upgraded.”
In that case, what we need is modular, open hardware. Bits and pieces anyone can make/understand which snap together to create the actual products. It would make upgrading items easier and reduce wastage. I know of some small companies/cooperatives which produce things like this and there seem to be communities of hobbyists making and exchanging such modular parts in Europe and China.
I will concede that incentivising people to create products like this may be difficult under capitalism but it’s already happening on a small scale in a few places. Reforming the patent system would be a large step in this direction.
Or, you know, hoisting the red flag and cutting bankers….

Dissident

“The thing is, this stuff only becomes a problem when it’s designed with planned obsolescence in mind, so that it’s supposed to break and be replaced every year or two, and designed so that it cannot be upgraded.”
In that case, what we need is modular, open hardware. Bits and pieces anyone can make/understand which snap together to create the actual products. It would make upgrading items easier and reduce wastage. I know of some small companies/cooperatives which produce things like this and there seem to be communities of hobbyists making and exchanging such modular parts in Europe and China.

Indeed. Replication technology, which we currently call 3-D printing, is now fast becoming feasible. Imagine the boon that technology can be for humanity if it was free from the constraints of the profit motive. It would further decrease the need to travel simply to get simple items, and it would save more waste by removing the “need” to package products in paper or boxes, which are often done in stores simply as a further means of advertising the product. I’m not talking about safety packaging when it comes to items shipped via mail, but 3-D printing would diminish the the need for shipping items to a great extent too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXvIMRklWiM
You can also see how such incredible technology could be viewed as a “problem” for labor under capitalism due to the jobs it would take away. But if we had a system that did not require production for profit, or force people to live by paychecks and money, and guaranteed every able-bodied person a meaningful vocation so they could do their modest share of the useful work in society in exchange for full access to the social store, then technology that may be considered labor-displacing under capitalism would be seen as labor-saving under a moneyless, socialistic economy. It would remove the need for labor being wasted on dangerous and tedious work, freeing them to pursue vocations that were useful to society and which they had a natural interest and aptitude for. The “take anything you can get as long as it hopefully pays some of the bills” mentality of capitalism would be ended, and thus so would a huge amount of the mental health issues and stress revolving around the fact that numerous people are stuck spending at least 40 hours of their lives every week, for most of the year, working at jobs they hate or are unsuited for.
I will concede that incentivising people to create products like this may be difficult under capitalism but it’s already happening on a small scale in a few places. Reforming the patent system would be a large step in this direction.
Yes, but the main problem under capitalism is not incentivizing the average person, but rather incentivizing the tiny handful of people who own the factories and control all the production decisions. The production of a huge amount of wasteful material that is designed to break down after two years of use is essential to making maximizing profit, even though it does the vast majority and the planet’s ecosystem no favors.
Or, you know, hoisting the red flag and cutting bankers….
Sadly, the bankers have more control of the economy than most anyone else at the top of the capitalist ladder.

Jasmine

“a system that did not require production for profit, or force people to live by paychecks and money, and guaranteed every able-bodied person a meaningful vocation so they could do their modest share of the useful work in society in exchange for full access to the social store”
Have you ever read Looking Backward, by Edward Bellamy? It’s one of my favourite Socialist Sci-Fi novels. (When you read enough that you have favourites within such a tiny sub-genre, you can’t wonder why you don’t have friends 😛 ) It describes a similar society existing in the Distant Future. (ie: 2000. The book was written back in the 19th century.) It’s worth reading just for it’s analogy between a carriage and the industrial economy of the era in the prologue (too long to copy/paste). It’s out of copyright and available free at Project Gutenberg.
Anyway, I’m not sure I want a system where everyone works even when their labour isn’t necessary. It would certainly be better for everyone to have a meaningful vocation than the current system. However, if we live in a society where most labour is superfluous and a couple people just want to laze around reading and playing video games, I say let them. The whole Labour Improves The Soul, Protestant Work Ethic thing has always seemed shallow to me. If we need everyone’s labour then, by all means, incentivise everyone to work. Otherwise, you do you.

Lensman

Hi Dissy, my fave challenger of established doctrines, policies and/or institutions!
Things are quiet and peaceful in the spaces between the galaxies at the moment so I thought I’d take advantage of this lull to thank come to Earth and thank you for your comment.
>With that said, do I agree with a Deep Green economic vision of society? That depends exactly on what you mean by that.
I’m actually doing my best to resist saying too much about the Deep Green vision as I’m hoping to keep my tofu wet (and my powder dry) for part 2. But judging from your comments I think you will be pleasantly surprised – nay ‘tempted’ even! – by it. I may get you into sandals and weaving your own muesli round the campfire yet.
Ohh, got to go – Ming the Merciless is stirring up strife and discord in the Crab Nebula again – better go and sort that out…

Josh

Interesting and I agree with a lot of what you said but I’d like to hear more about what solution you think there might be. I don’t mean to sound dense but what exactly is the Deep Green vision of society and economics and how do you think that will help?
I think a problem with the pedophile community is that we tend to be very good at pointing out the problems but not very good when it comes to coming up with solutions and engaging in activism to bring about change. Ultimately we’re all left with a feeling of hopelessness and not much else.
I’d also like to hear your theories on the impact capitalism has on pedophiles and why it is that we are so incompetent. I don’t mean to insult anybody by that statement (I believe myself to be incompetent too, even more than average.) but I think one of the reasons pedophilia is losing in modern society is partly because we are not putting up a good enough fight. Why it is that we just sit here and take all this bullshit? I think we have to hold some responsibility for allowing things to get as bad as they are.

Dissident

Please do tell in a future blog of yours, Tom! I would really like to hear if your thoughts on this square to a great extent with my own 🙂

Jasmine

Seconded. Bumping for interest.

Lensman

Thanks for your comment Josh –
>I’d also like to hear your theories … why it is that we are so incompetent.
The obvious point of comparison is with the well-run and successful campaigns that have led to homosexuality being accepted. Why can’t paedophiles do the same?
Maybe rather predictably, my answer is ‘because we don’t have economics on our side’.
The same shift from industrial capitalism to consumer capitalism that has caused hyper-hysterical paedophobia is also responsible (I believe) for the the acceptance of homosexuality.
Essentially I believe that queer acceptance rode on the back of a change in attitudes towards gender roles that took place between the 1960s and 1990s. During this period we see a transition from a macho idea of masculinity – stoical, silent, hard, ready to fight (I remember frequently seeing men fighting outside our local factory) to an idea of masculinity that is much more supple and ambiguous – one where a man can be a nurse, a nursery teacher, a secretary, a mid-wife etc and likewise women can be directors, engineers, soldiers, boxers etc.
This transition took place because Britain went seeing itself as an industrial nation to one based on services and non-essential consumption (manufacturing, industry etc having either been automated or exported to poorer countries where costs and constraints were lower).
A consumerist and service economy doesn’t require so much of the traditional ‘hard man’ attitudes in its work force (heavy industry requiring endurance and strength) but rather ones of education, sensitivity, flexibility, serviceability and adaptability (not least because with the demise of industrialism went the presumption that ‘a job is for life’ ). This flexibility etc applies especially to gender roles. This may be why an extended education has become almost compulsory.
I saw this in action as a I grew up in a town then changed from being industrial to a ‘shopping and services’ one – as the factories closed down men had to adapt, retrain and were obliged to take up jobs that they at first felt were insulting to the masculine values they’d held when working in forges, mines and mills. Interestingly the men often felt they were being ‘feminised’ by the new jobs that were being offered them. Gradually these new attitudes towards masculinity became more and more accepted. Nowadays the old industrial attitudes towards masculinity feel as outdated as flares and Elvis Presley quiffs.
The gay liberation movements succeeded because it rode on these changes in consciousness and attitudes in the general population, attitudes brought about by changes in the economic structure of the country.
So re. paedophiles: I don’t think it’s down to us being incompetent – we’ve got to keep doing what we can, but also we need to recognise the political nature of our struggle – divided as we are in our political vision (libertarian, socialist, Ecologist etc) this seems unlikely. We need more discussions like the ones we’re having now – as we need to find a way to reconcile different political viewpoints and have a unified vision for the way forwards.

Josh

Interesting and maybe you are right. But wasn’t homophobia largely pedophobia as well? Homosexuals were largely demonized because they were thought to be pedophiles and pederast. If you watch the video from the 1950’s entitled “Boys Beware” it’s as much anti-pedophile as it is anti-homosexual. Even in Soviet Russia under Stalin male homosexuality was illegal but not lesbianism because it was largely believed through propaganda that gay men were pederast. Even in modern Russia homosexuality is still being attacked mainly through the idea that it harms children. So in order for homosexuals to be accepted they had to severe themselves from any association with pedophilia and pederasty which led to the exclusion of NAMBLA in homosexual parades and organizations. So is it all economics or is it largely propaganda too? What if the LGBT community had not thrown NAMBLA under the bus? Could they have survived? Could we have survived?

Lensman

>But wasn’t homophobia largely pedophobia as well?
You’re right – the two were, it seems, quite mixed up in the public imagination, and still are in Russia.
Russia’s an interesting test case for my hypothesis – but as I’m not at all knowledgeable about it I can only ask questions rather than suggest answers – but I’m wondering to what extent it could be characterised as still being ‘industrial capitalist’ or ‘consumer capitalist’? It would be interesting to compare people’s attitudes towards homosexuality in cosmopolitan big cities such as Moscow to those in smaller more old-fashioned towns and cities where industry and industrial farming are still dominant.
I agree that the gay movement had to jettison paedophilia. They understood that conditions were favourable for the acceptance of homosexuality but certainly not for paedophilia. And that supporting paedophilia would severely hamper them on the road to acceptance. That’s too cynical a way of putting it – I doubt they calculated it so coldly; but one’s practical interests have a way of rapidly floating to the surface and being translated into one’s emotions and attitudes – and I don’t doubt that the feelings of gays who reject paedophilia are genuine.
Possibly many feel a special disgust for paedophilia because they see in us that which, till recently, they were themselves – a stigmatised, reviled minority portrayed in the most unflattering terms – and, instead of empathy, are disgusted to see in us that which they once were themselves.
I suppose what I’m suggesting is that propaganda is one of the many ways the ‘deep causes’ will express themselves. The actual economic causes of paedophobia (or for that matter homophobia and the acceptance of homosexuality) don’t make themselves directly felt – they have to be translated into cultural phenomena – ‘propaganda’ being one of them.
Maybe it could be said that a direct effect of the economic roots of paedophobia could be that gut feeling or instinct people have that paedophilia is ‘wrong’ ? That feeling will be rationalised and will lead to the secondary phenomena of propaganda, mis-reporting in the media, neo-feminist and religious bandwagon-jumping, No-Debating strategies, suppression of counter-evidence, denial of child sexuality, recontextualisation of any positive child-adult sexual experiences as ‘abuse’…

Josh

You make good points and for the most part you are probably right, although you may be overstating the effect the economy has. Although I can’t actually know for sure since it’s hard to really pinpoint cause and effect because it’s so complicated. But I am, after all, not pedophobic and there are plenty of other people who are not pedophobic (although we are a very small minority) but we grew up in the same economy as everyone else. So what makes us different? Isn’t the very fact that there are some people who disagree with the dominant narrative evidence of a possible world where pedophilia could be accepted in this economy? I mean if it was all about the economy than you wouldn’t find anyone who was pro-pedophile, right? I guess you could say I’m not a pedophobe because I am a pedophile but I’m not self-hating and aren’t there some nons who support us, although rare? Basically what I’m asking is: How do you explain the existence of people like us in this economy? People who aren’t pedophobes?

Lensman

…you may be overstating the effect the economy has.
That is certainly possible. Writing this essay has thrown up many questions and problems. One comes from my as-yet random perusal of the Growing up Sexually Archive – I have found there are plenty of non-capitalist social systems that appear to be sex-negative and frown upon child sexuality. Unfortunately the GUS archive doesn’t give information about the nature of the societies it deals with. I don’t doubt that culture has a part to play – though societies are generally quite adept at assuming and discarding aspects of culture according to how they serve or don’t serve various interests. But I’m very open to there being other factors.
But what I really think the Heretical movement must get away from are shallow explanations based on the short-term interests and attitudes of certain groups of people – explaining paedophobia by referring to people’s attitudes is a bit like answering the question “why do you like chocolate?” with “because it’s nice,” – the answer adds no new information to that which the question implies (i.e. that you like chocolate). When people blame Feminists, the religious right, bankers etc for paedophobia they’re really answering the question ‘why do people dislike paedophiles’ with a slightly sophisticated version of “because there are people who don’t like them”. Such explanations are a bit like a game of pass-the parcel.
I would want to defend my economic obsession a little bit though. The economics really forms a bed-rock upon which a much more complex ‘ecosystem’ of ideas, interests, conflicts, narratives can grow. Just as only certain organisms can thrive in certain ecological conditions so only certain ideas can thrive in certain social conditions. Probably a more accurate statement of my position is not so much that ‘capitalism produces paedophobia’ but rather that ‘capitalism produces conditions that make the acceptance of paedophilic love impossible to accept’. It’s a fine difference, I know – but it kind of might explain why paedophilia managed to remain relatively ignored right up till consumer capitalism kicked in and society’s conception of children and childhood started to be disrupted.
But I am, after all, not pedophobic and there are plenty of other people who are not pedophobic (although we are a very small minority) but we grew up in the same economy as everyone else.
As my criminology tutor used to tell us, pointing to a Bell Curve: ‘deviance is normal’.
For every social phenomenon there will be the great majority who conform and then there will be outliers like ourselves – the extent of the curve is defined by its outliers and every Bell Curve must have its feet. Paedophiles will exist in every society – the explanations are about how society reacts to, defines and deals with the phenomenon rather than whether society generates paedophilia.
Nor is it surprising that paedophiles are the most skeptical about paedophobia – we know just how 180-degrees mistaken society’s view of us is.
Again the ‘deviance is normal’ idea explains even the non-paedophiles who support us – though I suspect that there are more of these out there than we could even hope for.
The under-visibility of Paedo-sympathetic ‘nons’ must be huge – they have nothing to gain by revealing themselves nor have they any desires or affections that could lead to them being ‘outed’ – whereas we paeds can be arrested, outed, be identified by our lingering looks at little lovelies, and are visible in fora like this one and others and are possibly being monitored by LEAs. The sympathetic non can be completely invisible. And despite this I have in my social circle several friends who, without knowing of my sexuality, have, revealed themselves as sympathetic to paedophiles and skeptical of the hysterical narrative. I suspect that they are the tip of a huge invisible iceberg.
They are the true outliers of the Bell Curve -they find themselves through intellectual and emotional honesty and courage where we can’t help being because of our love.

Josh

“When people blame Feminists, the religious right, bankers etc for paedophobia they’re really answering the question ‘why do people dislike paedophiles’ with a slightly sophisticated version of “because there are people who don’t like them”. Such explanations are a bit like a game of pass-the parcel.”
I don’t think so. What they are saying is that those belief systems are incompatible with or at least very resistant to the ideas of childlove. For instance if the bible had said nothing of homosexuals than Christians probably wouldn’t be as resistant as they are today to the idea of gay marriage. Feminism, especially third wave feminism, seems very resistant to the idea of childlove because it is so predicated on the victimhood of women and children by male patriarchy. Now Bankers is a job title, it’s not an ideology. So that’s different. I don’t see how being a banker would automatically make someone anti-pedophile (of course if you listen to the conspiracy theorist than bankers are pedophiles and they worship satan as well.)
Of course you can always argue that these ideologies arouse from the current capitalist system. But I don’t know, it’s hard to say. Right now we can’t really know. It’s good theory though. The problem is testing it. I look forward to reading more of your ideas.

Cyril

“IS IT ALL ECONOMICS OR IS IT LARGELY PROPAGANDA TOO?.. YOU MAY BE OVERSTATING THE EFFECT THE ECONOMY HAS.”
If you propagandize things which contradict economical success this propaganda will not be popular for long time.
“IF THE BIBLE HAD SAID NOTHING OF HOMOSEXUALS THAN CHRISTIANS PROBABLY WOULDN’T BE AS RESISTANT AS THEY ARE TODAY TO THE IDEA OF GAY MARRIAGE.”
That’s not true, Christians may interpret the Bible in any way they want for economical purposes. The Bible forbids divorcement (Mattew 19:3–6) but still it is legal. On the other hand, the Bible says nothing about cloning though Christians oppose it.
“FEMINISM, ESPECIALLY THIRD WAVE FEMINISM, SEEMS VERY RESISTANT TO THE IDEA OF CHILDLOVE BECAUSE IT IS SO PREDICATED ON THE VICTIMHOOD OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN BY MALE PATRIARCHY.”
Such a predication is not the reason for feminist anti-CL resistance, the idea of victimhood develops in accordance with the economical status of the woman. In the end of the 1960s women amounted to 51% of the US population and to 37% of the US employees but their salary was 42% lower than men’s one (the Big Soviet Encyclopedia). For the purpose of arms race and the Vietnam & Middle East wars the American society needed more workers and more career opportunities for Negroes, youth and women. Youth grown economically independent and started anti-family movement called “sex revolution”.
Second Wave Feminists were contending against the institute of family, not against childlove. It was trendy to blame husbands for violence and rape against wives, not against children (Howitt, 1995; the WikipediA: “Feminism”: “Mid-20th century”). Some Second Wave Feminists even supported extra-familiar childlove: Germain Greer was advocating woman-boy sex, in German the Kanalratten Commune was advocating woman-girl sex (Norlik, 2013).
In the 1970s American women were economically independent enough to legalize contraceptive pills, abortions and artificial impregnation (Masters, Johnson & Kolodny) which made it possible to destroy fatherhood and those sexual practices which were not pleasant enough for women. Susanne Brownmiller developed the theory that coitus and fellatio was always rape (Howitt, 1995).
Anyway, Second Wave Feminism was charging men with incest, not with childlove in general, and tolerated non-coital sex. Just later, in the 1980s, as “Howitt (1992) discusses… terms like ‘incest’ become redefined to include, for example, acts perpetrated by ‘social uncles’ with no legal or biological ties to the child.” On the other hand, the epidemic of AIDS in the end of the 1970s made demonization against extra-marital and non-coital sex easier, the anti-family movement stopped (Kolodny, Kolodny, 1987; Stevens, 1987; Winkelsteinet al., 1987).
The Third Wave Feminism starts from “Anita Hill’s televised testimony in 1991… that Clarence Thomas, nominated for the Supreme Court of the United States, had sexually harassed her” (the WikipediA: “Feminism”: “Third-Wave feminism”). According to the Cornell activists of 1975 even non-contact sex (i.e., sexual harassment) may be considered as rape (Brownmiller, 1999).
There are economical reasons for this too as lawyers let women earn indemnities from anything considered sexual. That’s why the economical status of women determines the idea of victimhood, not vice versa.

Jasmine

Even if the economy is having an effect, it’ll only shifts people in the direction of paedophobia; not make it inevitable. For example, we know germs cause the cold but not everyone who’s sneezed on will get sick. It’ll depend on how strongly affected an individual is by other factors which may confer something like “immunity”; or, at least, resistance.
BTW: I’m one of those nons! Hi! Nice to meet you.

Cyril

»ONE OF THE REASONS PEDOPHILIA IS LOSING IN MODERN SOCIETY IS PARTLY BECAUSE WE ARE NOT PUTTING UP A GOOD ENOUGH FIGHT… HOLD SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALLOWING THINGS TO GET AS BAD AS THEY ARE.«
What do you mean MAPs allow this?
• MAPs have always been participating in pro-pedophilic organizations like PIE, PAL, NAMbLA, CSC, NVSH, DSAP, GRED, CRIES, DPG, SAP, Gruppo-P, IPCE, the Enclave, Rene Guyon society etc., yet pedophilia is losing in modern society.
• Celebrities like Allen Guinsberg, Kirk Read, William Armstrong Percy III, Dan Savage used to support adult-child sex, but pedophilia is still losing in modern society.
• Scholars like Goroncy, Rasmussen, Bender & Blau, Menninger, Kinsey, Landis, Brunold, Lempp, McCaghy, Corstjens, Ingram, Schoenfelder, Mitscherlich, Wille, Hallermann, Burton, Groffman, Hanack, Zeegers, Pondelickova, Chalott, Schorsch, Goldstein, Kerscher, Potrykus & Woebcke, Killias, Graven, Hauptmann, Walters, Kjellin committee, Borneman, Haeberle, Geiser, Janus, Cox & Wilson, Moeller, Nelson, Constantine, Powell & Chalkley, Sandford, Kilpatrick, Wisniewski, Li, Laumann et al., Fromuth, Rind et al. demonstrated that harmless adult-child sex existed. On the other hand, scholars like Burton, Finch, Gagnon & Simon, Gebhard et al., Taylor, Geiser, Gibbens & Prince, Guttmacher, Henriques, Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg, Doering, Nichols, Peters, Rush, Mohr, Moody, Baurmann etc. shown that police interrogation into adult-child sex was harmful for the child. Some scholars like Helmut Kentler, Prof. Haeberle and Dr. Bernard even supported the legalization of adult-child sex. Nevertheless pedophilia is still losing in modern society.
• 1979 was the year of the child, in Germany the Indianernkommune gone on a hungerstrike, in France George Moustaki signed a pro-pedophilic petition for the Liberation Magazine. A year before there was a mass demonstration in Netherlands demanding adult-child sex legalization. In the 1970s “a large contingent of GLF had favoured the abolition of the age of consent; their youth group had even staged a march in support of this” in the UK. Nevertheless, pedophilia lost in that society.
• In 1985 the green party of Germany officially demanded the legalization of adult-child sex, there were discussions in Bundestag. In 2010 there was a pedophilic party in the Netherlands, Edward Brongersma tried to lobby BL through in parliament. “As a politician, Pim Fortuyn was a proponent of legalization of consensual ‘pedophile’ relationships” — but still pedophilia is losing in modern society.
I cannot even imagine what else MAPs can do for being not responsible for paedophobia. Charity campaings? Boycotting? Terrorism?

Christian

I answer here 3 comments on my comments.
Lensman: To me, “consumer capitalism” is a meaningless tautology. Capitalism is about making, transporting and selling goods to consumers, or lending them money for buying goods. People use their money to buy goods, except if they are investors, then their money is used to get more money. Even heavy industry like mining, oil drilling and steelworks, exists to produce material used in consumer goods or in machines producing them. In the 80’s, some old industries like clothing, mining and steelworks were closed in Western countries, the activity was transferred to Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa… and since these old industries often had powerful labour unions, it was also an opportunity to weaken the labour movement. Then there was a flight forward towards more financial speculation (including credit: speculating on money that consumers will earn in the future).
Edmund: I did not say that for me Andrew Calimach is “counted as an authority”. I only consider that his works are worth reading and commenting. Of course if you know works by experts who demolish his thesis, please give me the references. I don’t care about his reputation in Amazon and BoyChat (I never go there) or in Wikipedia (certainly not a source of reliable sexological knowledge). The question is: has Andrew been definitively rejected from scholarly journals and publishing houses? Do real experts consider him as a crackpot? I see here too often people using “ad hominem” attacks, disparaging opponents instead of criticizing their works. This is a sign of superficial knowledge.
Andrew Calimach: You say “But Christian, I hope you were not evoking the straights with the thought that their behavior is something that pederasts should emulate. I think that, with our education and our sensibilities, we can do much better than that!” I informed you of my (March the 1st) blog article commenting your work, and in it I said “However I understand his advise to young gays that they should not feel obliged to practice anal sex. Indeed, I hold the opinion that a different type of desire must be expressed in a different way, the practices corresponding to man-woman love are not necessarily suitable to other forms of love, which should not try to mimic it and become in this way subordinated to the heterosexual norm.” And I discussed further “unproductive” forms of love. I have always regretted that you did not comment that article on my blog.

Lensman

Hi Christian. Thanks for your thoughts.
I’d disagree with you regarding consumer capitalism being a tautology – it’s only a tautology if one doesn’t take into account the history of capitalism or the various forms of it still extant in the third world. Consumer capitalism and industrial capitalism are really quite distinct.
The difference between them is best embodied by the huge differences between a working class family living in, say, Manchester in the early 19th century and one living there in the 21st century.
In the former the father, mother and any children old enough would have all been working in the factory, 6 days a week, 12 to 14 hours a day and together bringing home barely enough money to pay for essentials (food, clothing, fuel, housing, health care) – that was, of course, industrial capitalism at its harshest – there was very little ‘consumerism’ amongst the working classes back then. Though industrial capitalism got going because of technological advances the factories, mines etc were still very dependent on a large labour force – and so there was a great deal of pressure on employers to keep wages as low as possible. Consumption was more for the middle and upper classes, and most manufacturing was concerned with the production of essentials anyway.
Now, in the 21st century, only between 25 and 50% of an average family’s income in the UK goes on those essentials (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2300017/More-money-going-basics-like-shelter-heating-transport.html ). This changes the whole dynamics of the economic system – one needs no added persuasion to spend money on essentials: hunger, cold, thirst, fear and illness are strong enough incentives. However getting someone to buy a new car each year in order to have the latest number plates, to drink bottled water when tap water is available, or to update their telephone each time a new model comes out, or getting a fake tan is an entirely different matter – depending much more on manipulating people’s desires and sense of self etc.

Jasmine

Tom to the rescue! Cutting straight through to the source of the confusion 🙂
To Lensman: I think it’s worth considering the fact that goods tend to fall on a continuum between wants and needs. You need food to live but the type of food you eat is discretionary. Where I live, the weather is such that you will not literally die without clothing or shelter but few of us would count those as ‘wants’. As such, I’m not sure what the proper method of calculating necessary and discretionary consumption even is.

Edmund

“Edmund: I did not say that for me Andrew Calimach is “counted as an authority”. I only consider that his works are worth reading and commenting. Of course if you know works by experts who demolish his thesis, please give me the references. I don’t care about his reputation in Amazon and BoyChat (I never go there) or in Wikipedia (certainly not a source of reliable sexological knowledge). The question is: has Andrew been definitively rejected from scholarly journals and publishing houses? Do real experts consider him as a crackpot?”
Fair enough to an extent. I certainly wouldn’t expect you to respect my credentials over his, since I’ve provided you no grounds at all to believe they are any greater. As should have been obvious though, I did not refer to Amazon, boychat or Wikipedia as “authorities”. I merely alluded to the first two as evidence of Andrew’s imbalanced monomania, and to the last as evidence of his lack of credibility in quasi-scholarly circles. As for genuine scholarly circles ,I won’t presume to speak for them as I’m sure you are very capable of finding out for yourself who they are and what they think. It’s not a question of them “rejecting” him. They naturally haven’t heard of him. Why should they? If you care for an inkling of the truth without becoming yourself a serious student of classical Greece, consulting them rather anybody off the street is, I suggest, your best option.
Edmund, author of Alexander’s Choice, a novel attempting to refute this sort of bigotry

Bloom

Interesting and important ideas Lensman, but they don’t address the dynamics underlying the related phenomena of paedophobia and homophobia as I understand them.
I begin with the assumption that same sex and minor attraction are innate and adaptive, and that genes coding for these traits are maintained in a population because, directly or indirectly, they confer some reproductive advantage on carriers or their relatives.
The important difference between minority sexual orientations and heterosexual teleiophilia is not that the latter is a ‘fertile’ strategy in the obvious sense, but that it focuses effort and specializes structure and function around the replication of genes through mating and bearing young.
This is in contrast with, say, contributing to future generations by contributing to the child raising effort within an extended family. The contrast is even starker when the role of cultural evolution is considered. The impact of same sex unions and of alloparenting on social structures and cultural transmission are significant. This is why these are such intense battlegrounds in the culture wars.
Alternative reproductive strategies distort, circumvent and subvert the assumptions under which more typical individuals compete to contribute to the genes and memes of future generations. While teliophilic heterosexual males might maximize gene transmission by dominating other males and controlling access to and impregnating to prime females, same sex or minor attracted individuals contribute their genotype much less directly, through strategies that are more likely to involve alliances of trust and affection.
From the perspective of a ‘sexual majority’, homosexuals and paedophiles are ‘cheating’ and this provokes a predictable response. What is forgotten when this is translated into ideology is that success in minority strategies confers real benefits on communities and enhances survival of offspring in a concrete way. The prejudice, hostility, contempt, disgust and so on is really just self rationalized sour grapes.
Minority strategies are always a threat to those wedded to the norm.

Lensman

Thanks for those interesting thoughts, Bloom.
I agree that paedophilia could (or should) serve a useful function in what I would consider a proper communal society – providing cohesion between generations – mentors, role models, teachers and especially friends and lovers who allow children to create a dense and complex web of relationships (in our societies children are very impoverished in this respect).
But I’m not sure to what extent this would be genetically inherited behaviour. Have genes for this been identified? Certainly it can be culturally inherited as must have happened in societies such as those of the Trobriand Islands Malinowski studied.
>While teliophilic heterosexual males might maximize gene transmission by dominating other males and controlling access to and impregnating to prime females, same sex or minor attracted individuals contribute their genotype much less directly, through strategies that are more likely to involve alliances of trust and affection.
I’m a bit confused by this – isn’t the ultimate end product of paedophilia and homosexuality essentially that one is less likely to pass on one’s genes? As such the paedo and the homo pose less of a threat to the hetero than do other heteros. If anything your hetero should welcome more paedos in his community as it makes more mature females available to him.
I kind of understand the ‘sour grapes’ aspect – though my take on it may differ from yours. I think we generally feel a special type of disgust when we see in others that which we most want to repress in ourselves. I suspect that paedophilic feelings are universal but very deeply repressed, and that the intense hatred of paedophiles is proportional to how suppressed society demands those feelings be.
I can imagine a father whose little daughter has been in a sensual relationship with a paedo must experience intense jealousy – that this man did with his daughter that which he (the father) had denied himself even the thought of – as well as a simpler jealousy in response to his daughter having shared a special intimacy and affection with someone not himself.
I know that I couldn’t have helped experiencing those emotions if my daughter had been in such a relationship – and I’m a radical, unapologetic paedophile! As a product of the nuclear family even I wouldn’t have quite been able to escape the emotions inherent to the ‘pressure cooker’!
That is maybe one of the factors that make consensual child-adult sexual relationships more harshly treated by society than non-consensual ones.

Christian

Lensman says: ” I think we generally feel a special type of disgust when we see in others that which we most want to repress in ourselves.”
Ian Dishart Suttie, in his book “The Origins of Love and Hate” (1935) said the same thing:
“It is what we have renounced through fear, repressed, but still long for and envy in others, that arouses our greatest reprobation of indulgence and even evokes genuine loathing and indignation.”
A great book against Freud…

Bloom

Thanks Lensman.

Have genes for this been identified?

It’s not so much a question of ‘identifying genes’ for a trait than understanding that an interplay of genes and environment support maintenance of certain genes at functional levels. If you consider the biology of the hormone oxytocin, you’ll see that it’s involved in childbirth, lactation, as well as sexual arousal and orgasm. Not surprisingly, it’s also been linked to bond formation and trust in both sexual and nurturing relationships.
All of this is genetically mediated and illustrates that reproductive and nurturing behaviours are interweaved and interdependent. You can find the same interdependence in Freud’s stages of erotic development: oral, anal, phallic and genital. We love one another physically first, and then give this love different names depending on our cultural understanding.

isn’t the ultimate end product of paedophilia and homosexuality essentially that one is less likely to pass on one’s genes?

No. If you contribute to the survival of a close relative, you increase the likelihood of your genes being passed on, even if you never reproduce yourself. Conversely, if you are hypermasculine and aggressive in mate competition that you are killed in a fight with another male, you pass on no genes. Evolution is much more subtle than most people realise, and when people recoil from the deployment of evolutionary arguments in psychology and sociology, it’s because the have a very simplistic understanding of natural selection.
When, as humans, we say we naturally love kids, people assume this love has evolved to elicit nurturing behaviour in parents, but why just parents? We know it takes a village to raise a child, and this is as much an aspect of human biology as the basics of mammalian reproduction.
That’s how I understand it anyway.

Jasmine

Additional hypothesis:
Homosexuality isn’t very strongly hereditary so chances are the majority of people with the relevant genes aren’t homosexual and only some of the genes carriers express this phenotype. As such, it’s possible that the genes are propagating by making their heterosexual carriers fitter in a way that balances out the effect on their homosexual carriers.
This would be similar to how carriers of one sickle-cell allele have increased protection against malaria without harmful side-effects while monozygous carriers are at a disadvantage because they develop actual sickle-cell disease. Sickle-cell is an example of Heterozygote Advantage but that isn’t the only mechanism by which a gene can propagate by having both (evolutionarily) positive* and negative* expressions.
It’s possible that this is the strategy by which genes which cause paedophilia spread. After all, given how widely distributed preferential/exclusive paedophilia** is between demographic groups but it’s relatively low frequency in each population, the genes involved have to be pretty common while rarely being expressed in this manner. If most carriers are teleophilic, these genes simply need to boost their fitness just enough to counterbalance the genetic losses caused by the few preferential/exclusive paedophiles.
Of course, it’s completely possible that paedophilia is an advantageous niche strategy. It’s simply worth noting that even if it weren’t it could still spread.
PS: If we’re going to be looking for genes which are active in males more often than in females, we should start by checking the X chromosome. It’s worked for colour blindness and male-pattern baldness.
*This is not a moral judgement.
**As distinct from the fact that many people experience some small amount of attraction to prepubescents.

Jasmine

Thanks for the links. Helps support the idea that there is a continuum of
Exclusive teleiophiles > preferential teleiophiles > neutrality > preferential MAPs > exclusive MAPs.

Bloom

Homosexuality isn’t very strongly hereditary so chances are the majority of people with the relevant genes aren’t homosexual and only some of the genes carriers express this phenotype. As such, it’s possible that the genes are propagating by making their heterosexual carriers fitter in a way that balances out the effect on their homosexual carriers.

Totally, yeah I should have reprised that possibility. In my view, the essential point is that genes that support a trait (or propensity or preference or orientation) will be represented in the population in proportion to the benefit they bring to the offspring of the carrier (and his or her relatives). Attraction to children seems to be a widespread trait, so we have to assume it has some benefits.
Without appealing to group selection theories, I’m convinced the population genetics of interactions between sexual selection and kinship will eventually shed light on alternative sexual strategies. One thing’s for sure, given the thousands of copulations most human adults engage in to produce a handful of offspring, there’s more to sex than fertilizing eggs!
🙂

Tony

Sometimes noting what comes before an effect may actually be the cause of the effect. Phobia about pedophiles appeared. Previously to that, there were news reports about child murders. Never mind the all the economic conditions. It’s about greed. Money. Power. Politicians love things they can use to rally people behind them and be elected/reelected to office.

Jasmine

….And sometimes post hoc ergo propter hoc identifies correlation rather than causation.
Anyway, what set up the political environment in such a manner that these views could gain traction and become beneficial to the greedy?

mr pedo-man

Indeed I agree: Its about control, Special interest groups who thrive on the propaganda — Sound-bites that were created by Joseph Goebbels!
Though they need some truth to thrive. This Is just a blip in time; Maybe Transhumanism will turn out to be as sinister as pedo-phobia!

Cyril

“PHOBIA ABOUT PEDOPHILES APPEARED. PREVIOUSLY TO THAT, THERE WERE NEWS REPORTS ABOUT CHILD MURDERS. NEVER MIND THE ALL THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS.”
In my country every day a child dies in a traffic accident, nevertheless I see no driverophobia. When the member of the Ukrainan parliament Oleh Liashko tried to come down hard on driving crimes Ukrainian people did not like it. Because economic conditions make it impossible to prohibit motor transport.
Last year a 13-years-old Sophia K. attempted a suicide in my city after a quarrel with her mother, nevertheless her mother, the police and the media blamed the Internet. On the other hand, this summer an 11-years-old Daria Lukianenko was raped and killed in the Odessa region, and this case was used to pass SOR & chemical castration laws in Ukraine. Why can’t politicians rally people behind them through anti-parental demonization, why can they do it only through anti-“pedophilic” demonization? Because economic conditions do not allow abolishing the institute of family.
Everyone knows about Abraham’s and Jephathah’s sacrifices to the Christian god but nobody believes in Christian ritual abuse, everyone believes in Satanic ritual abuse. Because economic conditions are favorable to Christians, not Satanists.

Cyril

Jesus have said about “that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols… I will kill her children with death”.

Cyril

Besides, Jesus said: “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”, “I and the Father are one.”

Linca

How are we going to ever end people struggling to make sure their beliefs are the ones that create the way to the most profit. Can we end profit as “The Motive”? Look at how many psychologists are profited by the Me Too Movement, i.e., all the people brought into court.

Filip

Global empirical study about the origins of pedophobia
Let´s imagine there would be a global empirical study about the origins of pedophobia. Let´s say there would be a measurement about how much 10.000 people from 50 countries are pedophobic. And 100 independent variables would be measured like economic system the people live in, if somebody has “pedophilic” friends and knows about their sexual orientation, the way the mass media report about “pedophilia”, amount of “pedophilic” and “hebephilic” tendencies somebody has, and so on. Let´s imagine the scientists would use the mulitple regression-method to find out which factors produce pedophobia in this study. I would guess the factor capitalism and related economic factors would only explain a small part of the variance. This would not be the real proof that the economy is not the most important factor. But anyway it would be interesting to see what really matters in such a study. The Rind-Study had surprising results that destroyed belief-systems about “sexual abuse” and I guess such a meta-analysis could suprrise lots of people too.
Giesela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg once wrote that the moral judgement of “pedophilia” is always learned. People now learn to hate “pedophilia” and people in the future can and will learn to respect “pedophilia” no matter what the economic system will be.
What is the real reason that homosexuals were stigmatized and mobbed and arrested and killed in the last 2.000 years? The evil. And the evil is the heart of pedophobia too. But at the end love will win.
PS: Ok you are right DSM should be thrown away. But pedophobia should be seen as madness that kills.

imyarainbowstar

I read that on the edge of my seat. You have tread over much of the same ground as my self in trying to get an insight into the anatomy of prejudice.
I wrote a note to my friend the otherday trying to sum up my views on this which I just parse down a bit and paste here as you might find some of the ideas interesting as they are near to your own:
“At first there was the ‘primal horde’. One or a few males dominated the group and herded the females. This was the earliest form of patriarchy and is similar to that practiced by other sociable mammals such as primates or lions. This system of competing for females and domination of the horde was not very efficient, or at least less efficient than the incest and capitalism system that was soon to out-compete it. It happened somewhere before 50,000 ya and after 200,000 ya, possibly at the dramatic improvement in tool making that is called the Mousterian/Acheulean divide. After the invention of the new political arrangement, instead of one male competing to control all the territory and all the females, henceforth, each male would have his own micro-territory (the household) and the women on it. These women were swapped in a very exact way: one’s man’s daughter was given to another man as his wife; this created networks of debt. The bride prices or dowries created a complex network of trade exchanges. This was the birth of capitalism and the family household unit in a single cultural technology: incest-taboo. It is a good guess that clothes wearing began at this time too. It began among the males with the purpose of covering the penis with a penis-gourd or loin-cloth because just as the size of a stag’s antlers determine his status, the size of a man’s penis determine his. Penis size is the result of testosterone levels in adolescence, it’s elevation is caused by sunlight, short burst physical exertion, high protein diet, occasional fasting, and minimal bad-stress: these were the environmental conditions under which the successful hunters were living. The penis was covered to conceal the automatic signal this natural scepter was sending and therefore interrupted the primal horde’s hierarchy. The result was a more efficient and cooperative sex-pol system based on incest and the trade and family-units it created. This “band of brothers” out-competed the older primal horde. Pedophilia-taboo is the universalization of the incest-taboo for modern societies in which the family-unit is defunct: the father is now the universal man of the adult generation who instead of being prohibited from having sex with his daughter only is now barred from sex with all girls who represent the universal daughter of the child generation. This is why pedophilia is so wildly hated, because psycho-socially it took over the entire recessionary force of incest proper as well as adultery and the other taboos that regulate the family-unit and capitalism sexual-state-form.
PS… A second rule-set from the earliest stage of hominids further grounds pedophilia-taboo. Unlike most animals who are indifferent or even hostile to the young of the species, human males protect and nurture their young. However, sexuality for humans is fundamentally a process of violence ever since the rise of patriarchy during which time the meaning of sex hovered somewhere between rape and prostitution. The rule-sets: 1.Sex is violence, and 2.Protect the innocent children, create a paradox in which therefore the innocent children must be protected from sex.
PSS… A further consideration in understanding pedophilia-taboo is the displacement of what I’ll call “Barbarian Pederasty” with state monetarism starting from the 6th-Century BC.
Before the last few decades or centuries, depending where you live, there were no schools and there were no houses. There were no teachers (or camp leaders) and there were no moms or dads either. There was also no punishment or threats, and there were no bribes or rewards too. In those ancient times, people didn’t love and take care of the young because it was their job (youth-worker) or because it was their social structural duty (dad) — we did it because we got increadible joy and meaning from it.
In 399 BC, Socrates was executed for “corrupting the youth”: Socrates never took money for educating, his reward was the intimacy he shared with the boys who were “unbearded”… That system of imitation based on role-modeling and care was how culture was transmitted for millions of years. It survived as the Apprenticeship system. In Ancient Greece, free people like Socrates who never took money, and cared for the youth as it’s own reward, were replaced by Sophists: paid educators. Sophists were viewed as having few deep values; their main motive was financial. In Rome, these teachers were known as pedagogues, and they were slaves. The Pedagogues replaced the Pederasts.
Pedagogy replaced Pederasty.
The barbarian system of enculturation that had existed for as long as four million years was displaced by monetarism. This famously happened in the West at the death of Socrates in 399 BC. That’s when free intimate education of youth ended, and the state/family-unit system based on discipline and sallary initiated.
Enculturation of the youth had been motivated for millions of years by the natural rewards of being intimate with young people. Capitalism has slowly eroded the original pederastic system of intimate and imitative culture transmission, and replaced it with a system of animal training based on discipline and punishment, where the reward for both student and also older figure are now token rewards: grades and sallary, rather than care and love.

Ethanic

I don’t know if anyone can clearly outline the reasons for the crackdown on paedophilia. For me, it always has had the feel of the inevitable.
Too good to be true.
Something so wonderful and inspiring like paedophilia has no chance in this world after the fall, it seems.
Get crucified while ye can people!

Andrew Calimach

A couple of quick thoughts, as I confess to not having read the entire article as my eyes are a bit tired tonight. On the unavailability of boys for emotional relationships with unrelated adults, I would agree with the author that one of the causes is the emotional monopolization of children by their parents. It is an unfortunate result of the fact that societies of neighbors are not as strong as they once were when families would be rooted for generations in one place. It is also the result of shrinking families. I would imagine that families with many children would be more likely to be glad to see a man take an interest in one of their many sons. He would be seen as a helper, not as a competitor.
I must also point to another factor in the current unavailability of boys for emotional relationships with strangers. The question here is “unavailability for what?” Until very recently in western society buggery was about as unthinkable as cannibalism. Thus a man’s interest in boys was likely seen with much greater indulgence than it might be today. As a matter of fact, until the early years of the twentieth century it was a compliment to say of someone that he is a “boy lover.” It was a phrase used admiringly of many society men who took an interest in the welfare of destitute boys. Try that today.
Finally, I must disagree with the author about the difference in equality between man-boy relations and father-son relations. In each case there is a play of equality and inequality.
Also, I do not think we see eye to eye on the “incest taboo” topic. I do not see it at all as a kind of protection against sexual tensions in the family. Those tensions exist, period. They are unavoidable, not only are one’s children desirable but they are also desirous. Only a fool or a liar would deny that. The reason the incest taboo exists, and must exist, is because a parent is charged to prepare his child for release into the greater world outside of the family. Entering into a sexual relationship with one’s own child would trap that child within the family as all its desires would be fulfilled without any need for that child to open its wings and fly from the nest. Thus the result would be a “flightless” child, trapped by his own feelings, unable to separate from his parents, resentful, and helpless. Therefore the parent must resist not only his feelings of attraction toward his own children, but also their naive sexual advances toward him.
I would imagine that a study of those societies that permitted child sexuality within certain bounds would show that the same incest taboo applies, at least to the father and the mother, irrelevant of the greater economic structuring of that society. Certainly we see that among the Greeks, who loved each others’ sons, within strict limits, but never their own.

Lensman

Thanks for your thoughts, Andrew Calimach – I hope your eyes will have had a good night’s sleep!
I’d like to address your comments on the incest taboo: I’ve taken it as read that the Incest Taboo exists and is, as far as anthropologists can tell, universal, though it can take different forms in different societies. The explanation you give is certainly plausible and interesting, but I feel it is subsumed by the nut-shell explanation that species-populations will strive to augment genetic diversity, whether through the forbidding of sexual relationships or through enforcement of mobility or other means. I, of course, agree that the incest taboo still exists in sex-positive societies and regardless of economic structure.
My essay doesn’t put forwards an explanation for the incest taboo (I’m not quite that ambitious!). The incest taboo obviously predates capitalism, and it wouldn’t surprise me that it predates humanity, since mammals and other animals and even plants make efforts to avoid breeding with close relations (after all couldn’t a plant’s adaptations to spread its seeds as widely as possible be considered as a way of reducing the risks of committing vegetal-incest?).
What the ‘Innocent Child’ section of my essay does do is ask what happens when a child is isolated in a situation where all its adult relationships are with people who are covered by the incest taboo. Each society must negotiate the incest taboo according to its kinship structures and that includes capitalism. The taboo entirely precedes the situation created by the nuclear family and is in no way created by it.

Christian

As a reader and commenter of Andrew’s academic papers (http://independent.academia.edu/AndrewCalimach), I can understand some ideas that are only implicit in his present comment. By “buggery”, he means anal sex. He has explained that the ancient Greeks at the same time extolled the love of boys and condemned utterly anal sex. He shares their views and thinks that the contemporary practice of anal sex among gays feeds homophobia.
Indeed, some current misconceptions about pedophilia is to present it as “to sodomize 6-year-old boys” (even some leftists “revolutionaries” think that crap). The book “The Child-Lovers” by Glenn D. Wilson & David N. Cox studied PIE members at the end of the 70’s; the majority of them were attracted to boys in the age range 11-14, and they did not sodomize boys; however some of them got sodomized by boys. Also Tom said in a recent post “no penetration before age 12”. So the revulsion at “buggery” is a bad excuse for anti-pedophile hatred. Anyway, ordinary straights are fascinated by anal sex, look at straight porn!
About incest, an interesting but hard to read (much in post-modernist language) article is by Janssen in Archives of Sexual Behavior, July 2013, Volume 42, Issue 5, pp 679-683, DOI 10.1007/s10508-013-0131-z. I just give a quote from it:
“The child is the last chance for a taboo in a world without any taboo.”

Edmund

“He has explained that the ancient Greeks at the same time extolled the love of boys and condemned utterly anal sex.”
He has “explained” nothing of the sort. He has given entirely bogus reasons for pretending the Greeks shared his personal prejudice about this. He has run away from every challenge to defend his position logically, including mine on this blog four months ago. The nearest he ever approaches to doing so is to indulge in special pleading so blatant that he was quite rightly banned for life from contributing to Wikipedia four years. If you doubt this, try asking him. And if you doubt that his obsession with the subject is less than monomaniacal, try reading his contributions to boychat or Amazon reviews.
Other considerations aside, I would truly rather not disparage anyone, but when someone like this gets away with gross misinformation and is counted as an authority without the feeblest justification (other than perhaps an even weaker grasp of classical Greek on the part of the admirer than Andrew himself) , I feel bound to say something or desist from all contributrion to debate.

Andrew Calimach

Christian, you sum up my views on this topic quite accurately, thank you. However, the harm done to the social fabric, and to relations between all males, by the “liberation” of the anus is not dependent on logic. Or, to put it another way, the fact that most men who love boys do not bugger those boys is lost on those (99.9% of the population) who are dead set on defending their sons precisely from that.
I will also question the notion that boy lovers are usually not boy buggers. I posted an announcement on a boy love board a while ago, about my article on the Greeks and buggery (“Pinning Anal Sex on the Greeks”), and I’ll be damned if the majority of the respondents did not practically tar and feather me for my views. Not that I minded the rejection. I rather like being rejected by the man in the street for my work on pederasty, and by modern pederasts for my revealing that the Greeks detested buggery. I must be doing something right if I have everyone against me.
As for the straights being into buggery, what else would expect of a society bent on consumption, thus a society in which the operant factor is a fundamental dis-satisfaction that must be fulfilled at all costs. Thus normal sex between a man and a woman is now not enough, we must push beyond for something tighter, filthier, more forbidden and more demeaning. This mentality of enslavement to materialism, fanned by commercial interests, has invaded every nook of our minds, even in our most intimate moments. But Christian, I hope you were not evoking the straights with the thought that their behavior is something that pederasts should emulate. I think that, with our education and our sensibilities, we can do much better than that!
Lensman, your discussion of taboos is interesting, because it is a path to unraveling the hate that bedevils men who love boys. My own view is that we are paying for the bad karma accumulated by unethical pederasts over the centuries. Or, to put it another way, the bad karma that has arisen from men flouting instinctive taboos in their relations with boys. As for your wondering what happens to a child who is exposed only to adults who are restrained by the incest taboo, that reminds me of a couple of “realities” about children growing up today. Conventional morality holds that children should play with others their own age. Of course, nothing could be more limiting and fruitless than that. It is not among women and children that a man is raised.

Christian

Interesting article (as writings of Lensman are in general). I think that the various factors for “pedophilophobia” interact. For example the extension of education and nuclear family: since students generally don’t earn money, they depend on their parents, who infantilize them. If students were at age 14 taken out of family and put into a campus paid by the whole society, they would not be so much infantilized. (I remind that in all preindustrial societies, adolescence did not exist: you were adult at around 14.)
I don’t believe in the turn to “consumer capitalism” at the end of the 70’s. In England and some parts of the US, it was rather “deindustrialization”. In the US, little ordinary people are not better off than 40 years ago, and with the crisis, many people in Europe fall into misery (cf. Greece).
For the present moral panic, one cannot avoid the fact that it started in the late 70’s together with the economic crisis and AIDS pandemy. And for me, contemporary barbarity (religious hatred and fundamentalism, xenophobia, closed borders and migrants drowning in the sea, “p-phobia”, etc) reminds of older barbarity, the witch-hunt hysteria and religious intolerance at the end of the Middle Ages: a decaying social system rots in the most horrible and murderous way. (Attn. Jack Summer: capitalism is rotten and stinking.)
I think that the myth of childhood innocence and asexuality is rooted in bourgeois culture since Rousseau, every bourgeois thinks of his family as a haven of peace and purity in a brutal and competitive world. Childhood becomes the last refuge for dreams of innocence.
And in recent times sexuality has been fetishized as an emblem of power, prestige and economic productivity. I give a quote attributed to Michael C. Baurmann:
“Criteria that we use to describe work — such as performance, competition, wages and benefits, dirt and sweat — are absentmindedly carried over into other aspects of life. It is therefore not surprising that the same terms are frequently used when discussing sexuality. This framework seldom has a positive impact on sexuality; sex becomes something that takes place quickly and single-mindedly, within narrow slots of time. Sexuality often becomes a lot like work, becoming just as dirty and results-oriented. By this same logic, sexuality is not for children and youth, the elderly, the sick, prisoners, the disabled, or any other group of people not actively involved in productive work. Apparently, they are unworthy.”
Attn. Filip: the DSM should be thrown away, it just pathologizes any problem in life and any non-conforming behaviour.

Jasmine

“the DSM should be thrown away, it just pathologizes any problem in life and any non-conforming behaviour.”
I’m not so sure about that. While I’m against pathologising difference, I do believe that people should be able to seek assistance in changing their mental patterns if they want to.
For example, I’d love to have some assistance dealing with my social anxiety (if the local mental health professionals were even slightly trustworthy). This doesn’t mean I consider social anxiety abnormal or bad – I’d just rather do without. Other socially anxious people can make their own decisions.
I generally support Ozy Frant’s view.

Dissident

Hi, Jasmine (glad you returned again!). I think the main point here is this: Is it right for the DSM to pathologize any type of behavior simply because there are a number of individuals who would prefer not to have that attribute, and would like help available to get past it if they so choose? Basically, shouldn’t help be available to such people without listing their behavior in a book on medical disorders?

Jasmine

1: The pathologisation is a problem. It shouldn’t be a book of ‘medical disorders’, it should be a book of ‘neurodivergence’. Also, even common variations that no one considers to be pathological should be included!
2: Having a book really is useful. The DSM allows you to map from ‘I observed these symptoms’ to ‘the patient’s brain is functioning in this manner’ (which will be a generalisation, of course – but a useful one). Once you can identify what’s going on – such as the difference between Major Depressive [drop ‘disorder’], Bipolar [why is everything ‘disorder’?], and simple anemia – you can figure out which interventions will be most helpful. SSRIs help if your depression is caused by MDD, but someone with anemia just needs an iron/folic acid supplement.

Lensman

I agree that there’s a complex interaction of factors.
The metaphor I use for thinking about this complexity is one based on ecology: there are those factors which form a ‘bedrock’ for a social system – those factors are large-scale and slow-changing (geography, history, climate, resources), the bedrock will determine the ‘soil’ which is faster-changing than the bedrock (institutions, economy, technology). The ‘soil’ gives rise to the ‘ecosystem’ which is a stable but fast-changing phenomena (social movements, religions). Finally there are the ‘individual organisms’ and their interactions – the most complex and fast-changing level.
The metaphor encapsulates the increasing speed, complexity and interactivity of phenomena as we move away from fundamental factors and towards the level of the individual agent. It’s useful to try to understand at what level various complicating factors are operating at. The factors I outline in the essay are very much ‘bed-rock’ and ‘soil’. How these factors manifest themselves is extremely culturally varied – including neo-feminist shrillness and religious puritanism – but those phenomena work on the ‘ecosystem’ and ‘individual’ levels.
I don’t believe in the turn to “consumer capitalism” at the end of the 70’s. In England and some parts of the US, it was rather “deindustrialization”.
Well, Consumer Capitalism has stepped in where Industrialism has disappeared. It didn’t happen suddenly but (I suspect) that during the 60s and 70s the phenomena of the rising curve of ‘consumerism’ and the falling curve of ‘industrialism’ resulted in a paradigm-shift that neither the population nor the capitalists could ignore. I suspect that a lot of the revolutionary and counter-cultural movements of the 60s occured because of a sense of the failing of the old form of capitalism – why work 40 hours a week if you can earn enough to live in 20 and anyway why work when ‘robots’ can do the work for you? Capitalism wouldn’t have survived such a withdrawal of labour and consumption, which is why industrial capitalism had to reinforce its promotions of ‘wants’ – since ‘needs’ were largely taken care of.
In the US, little ordinary people are not better off than 40 years ago, and with the crisis, many people in Europe fall into misery (cf. Greece).
There will always be poor people. But you mustn’t confuse relative poverty with absolute poverty. Someone may feel poor because they are struggling with their mortgage payments and are going to have their television repossessed but that is not the same level of poverty as a struggling subsistence farmer in Somalia.
Many people defined as ‘poor’ now have a car, television, access to clean water, food, health care. Relative poverty has gotten worse as the rich have got richer, but in any meaningful terms (cost of essentials, ownerships of material goods, access to services) people are better off. That, of course, doesn’t necessarily mean people are happier or feel better off – one of the cleverest tricks of consumerism is to keep people permanently dissatisfied with themselves and their lives.

Jasmine

On the whole, I like this post. Just one thing niggles me:
“Capitalism’s dependence on growth meant that it had to employ some motivation other than “necessity” for keeping us working and spending. Consumerism achieves this by getting us to work as much for the satisfaction of fabricated “wants” as “needs”.”
Which is bad because….?
As an aspiring economist, I have to side with the people who want frivolities. As a Preference Utilitarian, I have to support weird, inane preferences. If by “fabricated” you mean they muck with the brain (eg: narcotic addictions) or rely on misinformation (eg: preference for bottled vs tap water) then I agree that there’s a problem. If you mean “people want to have things they don’t need” or even “people want to have things I don’t think they should want”, I have to ask: so what?
The deficit of consumer goods was one of the many problems the Soviet economy had. Production was usually high and almost every necessity was supplied (food, water, clothing, housing, transportation, etc.) but not enough of the things people wanted (TVs, genre novels, jewlery, soda, etc.). This causes Monetary Overhang. If you want proof of people’s desire for things they don’t need, just look at the things people risked their livelihood (and paid through the nose) to smuggle behind the iron curtain: jeans, foreign music (especially rock), pornography, and liquor. My cousins in Cuba confirm that the situation is the same over there. Surly advertising campaigns weren’t selling capitalist mindsets to Soviet citizens? In fact, the opposite would have been true. Humans just like useless shit.
In the end, some things are useless but fun. People don’t die in the absence of chocolate and video games. However, right before coming to H-TOC to read this post, I was shooting at simulated soldiers. I have friends who just might shoot me for chocolate. We want these things because we enjoy using them – eating, playing, what have you. We don’t need them, but I’d be damned if I’d let a central planner stop me from having them.
~Jasmine; AKA the aspiring economist formerly known as James
“The smuggler … would have been, in every respect, an excellent citizen, had not the laws of the country made that a crime which nature never meant to be so.”
~ Adam Smith (1776)

Lensman

Which is bad because….?
I’ll ‘fess-up to having reasons for thinking that this is a bad thing. However it wasn’t the purpose of the essay to pass judgment on capitalism or consumerism but really to try to understand why it invariably produces paedophobia (and that, indeed, is one of my reasons for personally not being 100% keen on capitalism etc). Another reason is that one cannot have endless growth in a closed system – hence my ecological problems with any economic system that is dependent on growth. The third reason is that consumerism makes for unhappy, unhealthy societies (and, of course, paedophobia and the isolation of children are all a part of this).
The deficit of consumer goods was one of the many problems the Soviet economy had.
I would never defend the Soviet Union as a model for an economic or social system and would actually include the ‘industrial communism’ of the Soviet Union under the rubric of ‘capitalism’ – but your point is that it serves as an example that people want consumer goods regardless. Well, I think the Soviet peoples’ desire for consumer goods was a function of how dissatisfied they felt with their lives, and how little capacity they felt they had for changing their lives – which are factors for fueling consumerism in traditionally capitalist countries too.

Ethanic

Another factor, I think, was the result of the closed nature of the eastern bloc, and how most therein imagined that the west was a truly free world, and this ended up in an idealising of the west, i.e. “Radio Free Europe”.
It was a thirst for freedom that spawned this longing.
In light of recent events in the West, this idea of freedom now seems lugubrious. [TOC: ludicrous?]

Ethanic

perhaps a better choice of words, TOC!
-but I do mourn the demise of true freedom.
-an idea that has had its day, it seems.

Jasmine

1: Growth isn’t zero-sum. Trade and innovation create. In fact, a lot of the new wealth being created these days is in services and art. These things certainly aren’t constrained by a closed system.
2: I don’t see how it’s the things we buy that are making us unhappy. Long hours in soul-crushing jobs make people unhappy. So does economic insecurity. However, wanting things one lacks is pretty universally human. Many pre-agricultural cultures have been happier than hours but that’s because they hardly work – not because they lack chocolate and jeans.
As far as I can tell, the horrible work environment in the anglosphere is due to economic incentives and irrational decisions. That doesn’t mean the answer is never buying frivolties.

Lensman

I kind of agree with both of those statements (though I’m not wholly clear about what you mean by ‘Growth isn’t zero-sum), Jasmine: you point out some significant positives and negatives associated with (consumer) capitalism.
The good news is that there is an alternative economic system that will deliver innovation and creativity, but in the context of a steady state, no-growth economy, which will also radically change the structure of work and leisure – making work much more flexible and indeed even optional, as well as ‘de-nuclearising’ the nuclear family and restoring the role of the community in children’s lives.
It’s a system that is more ancient and more tried-and-tested than capitalism, though till now always on a small scale. I will touch on this economic system in the next part – so I’ll resist the temptation of writing about it here.

Jasmine

By “growth isn’t zero-sum”, I mean that economic production doesn’t necessarily require that we take resources from other people or out of the ground. Sometimes production causes harm to others or the environment, but harm isn’t a necessary part of economic growth.
I really hope that “zero growth” doesn’t mean to you what it would mean to an economist. In economic terms: “growth” means “the increase in total wealth” and “wealth” (distinct from “money”, “currency”, or “goods”) is “the sum of all material well-being”. Zero growth means that nothing desired by any human is newly produced (without an equivalent amount of an already-existing thing being destroyed). Anything one person gains can only be gained by ensuring someone else loses an equal amount to keep the total amount of wealth/well-being constant.
Naturally, public goods such as art cannot exist. If a song exists, then people will listen to it multiple times – deriving some amount of satisfaction each time. If the amount of satisfaction in the world is increasing then wealth is increasing – therefor, growth is occurring. Since we can’t have that, we can’t have art. Hello, Clockwork Orange.
I really, really, really hope that you mean something more along the lines of “no more natural resource extraction”, “no more pollution”, or “completely preserve all existing natural spaces”. Those ideas are a little scary too, to be honest, but at least they aren’t the Lovecraftian horrors “zero growth” would imply since, in fact, there would still be growth and wealth-creation. Conservation of matter/energy/etc should stay in physics. Ideas like Conservation of Wealth make economists piss themselves and run away screaming.

peterhoo

There have been some substantial posts put up regarding this post. My comment is intended to be brief.
First the move to a discussion of homophobia by the gay movement I read as a turning of the tables on those who saw homosexuality as deviancy and danger. Homophobia couched itself as a psychoanalytic and psychological flaw. A rather clever move, given what was being argued about homosexual men at the time.
Second, I find the discussion of the attitudes and social position of minor attracted persons being framed in terms that are external to the individual – economic, sociological, one might view the post as materialist based (what a traditional Marxist might put together) – again is refreshing. New language can offer new ways of seeing things. I don’t argue there are single explanations of how things are the way they are; I prefer multiple descriptions – both and, rather than either or.
Lastly I am doing some writing of my own on what may be a very similar to this post’s topic, if not the same one. I am struck by how hostility to the pedophile can be said to trump every other negative label that can be put on a person. I should have my thoughts up on the Internet in the coming week. I appreciate greatly what is offered in this discussion. (http://takearisknz.wordpress.com)

Lensman

Thanks for your comment peterhoo and I look forwards to reading your thoughts on this topic on your site.
>. I don’t argue there are single explanations of how things are the way they are; I prefer multiple descriptions – both and, rather than either or.
I daresay that historians of the future will be able to make more sense of the current hysterical paedophobia than we can. The victims of persecution too easily see the causes of their persecution in those doing the persecution. This makes sense – a pheasant on the first day of the hunting season is better off having a deep understanding of the psychology of the hunter than an understanding of the economics of the catering industry.
We’re blinded by the fog of battle. Historians, free of the fog of battle, can better evaluate the true reasons for witch-hunts and persecutions. To explain the persecution of the Jews under Third Reich by focusing on the anti-semitic sentiments of those doing the persecution – on the idea, essentially, that ‘people are bad’ – is a weak form of explanation. The strong explanations draw on large-scale factors – the first world war, the treaty of Versailles, the resulting collapse of the economy etc, factors that would not have been evident to those involved and caught up in the madness.
To switch metaphors I sometimes think that we’re like the three blind men encountering an elephant, feeling different parts of it and coming to the conclusion that they’re each touching a different kind of animal.
This is why I think we should be seeking a single, if not ‘explanation’, at least ‘narrative’, for what is going on. What can be mistaken for multiple causes, I suspect are really ‘multiple expressions’ of a single cause – I’m thinking especially of such factors as neo-feminism and religious puritanism often cited as the causes of paedophobia.

peterhoo

I can follow your thought and I can see we are agreeing on many things. One feature of how one generates explanations, as well as how one assesses them, is the philosophical view one takes.
A post-modernist outlook is averse to what looks like a grand narrative and I suspect, on the surface at least, that could be how your preferred single explanation might be framed as.
My feeling/inclination is to take what you offer as a deeper rendering of how things can be read. I certainly want to keep the conversation going.

Dissident

Well said, Lensman! You will note that individuals both on the Right and Left of the political spectrum too often like to blame either specific groups of people for being the major cause of all the problems (immigrants, homosexuals, ethnic minorities, Muslims, or anyone who isn’t religious, in the case of the former; anyone who is white, male, and heterosexual, or anyone who happens to be religious, in the case of the former); or the human species in general (despite the fact that a mere handful of the global population makes all the major decisions for everyone else!). I even had one progressive I know tell me, “No, it’s not capitalism that causes inequality for women; men cause the inequality!” Mmm-hmm. And you know what the right-wingers say about any given minority group refusing to accept their “proper place” in society.
Neither side focuses on the material factors in the world economic global order that are the prime source of most of the problems we face. It’s always much easier to simply blame either this or that group of people (“It would be better if Group X were at the top of the hierarchical totem pole than Group Y!”), or “human nature” in general (“the human race is inherently greedy, violent, competitive, and prone to bigotry; we can’t do any better than capitalism!”). By leaving the main cause of our problems unchallenged, and diverting our efforts into alleviating the symptoms instead of the disease itself, we nullify our chances of making lasting beneficial change. After these paltry reform efforts invariably fail to provide lasting change, the majority of the population then gives into despair and disillusionment, believing that “nothing” works (i.e., variations of the same methods that have been tried and failed numerous times in the past).

Jasmine

“a pheasant on the first day of the hunting season is better off having a deep understanding of the psychology of the hunter than an understanding of the economics of the catering industry.”
This analogy is glorious! Brilliant! Mind if I steal it and reuse it a billion times?

Lensman

Feel free to use it as you need and wish, Jasmine. And, what’s more, in an act of uncharacteristic generosity I’ll waive my usual exorbitant copyright fees.

Cyril

“I DON’T ARGUE THERE ARE SINGLE EXPLANATIONS OF HOW THINGS ARE THE WAY THEY ARE; I PREFER MULTIPLE DESCRIPTIONS”.
Occam Razor must cut off all the multiple “descriptions” and leave just a “single explanation”. That is how science works.

Filip

“Lensman and I are both uneasy about this term. It implies that those who have a problem with paedophilia are not right in the head.”
But this is at least very often the case. Imagine someone would put an adult into prison because the adult plays football with a child. We would agree that this person is mad and mentally ill because playing football with a child is totally normal and there is no reason to put someone into prison for that. The love between a child and an adult is totally normal too. Just because so many people have the mental disorder pedophobia doesn´t make this mental disorder and madness more normal or less problematic.
Some scientists see homophobia as a mental disorder which should be included into the DSM. (Guindon, Mary H., Alan G. Green and Fred J. Hanna (2003): Intolerance and Psychopathology: Toward a General Diagnosis for Racism, Sexism, and Homophobia. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 73 (2) pp. 167-176). Pedophobia should be included into the DSM too.
From my point of view this essay concentrates too much on economic reasons for pedophobia. In every country of the world today adult-child-love is forbidden and stigmatized so the main reason for pedophobia is not the economic system. The scientific literature about homophobia identified and explored lots of reasons for homophobia and pedophobia has lots of reasons too.
There is one interesting empirical study that explored how much different factors produced pedophobia (Jahnke, Sara; Roland Imhoff and Juergen Hoyer (2014): Stigmatization of People with Pedophilia: Two Comparative Surveys. Arch Sex Behav, 20.6.2014 Epub ahead of print). In this study right wing political views (r = .38), less education (r = .20), being younger (r = .17) and having kids (r = .09) were correlated with pedophobic opinions.
It was very interesting to read in this essay that there were already several societies where adult-child-love was legal. Michael C. Seto often wrote that pedophilia was never legal and uses this (wrong) thought as an “argument” that pedophilia would never be legal. Someday pedophilia will be legal and pedophobia will be stigmatized as homophobia.

Jasmine

“In every country of the world today adult-child-love is forbidden and stigmatized so the main reason for pedophobia is not the economic system.”
Every country today is at least partially affected by industrialisation (as far as consumer goods are concerned, all boarders are porous). As such, it’s disingenuous to imply that the present universality of paedophobic attitudes is evidence against an industrialisation -> paedophobia link. If we look backward through time, cultures tend to start stamping out paedophilic behaviour around the same time they start being economically influenced by industrial societies. On the other hand, they could have just been infected by western cultural memes which merely correlate with western economic influence. I’m no expert on what’s going on there….
“Some scientists see homophobia as a mental disorder which should be included into the DSM. (Guindon, Mary H., Alan G. Green and Fred J. Hanna (2003): Intolerance and Psychopathology: Toward a General Diagnosis for Racism, Sexism, and Homophobia.”
Aaaaaaaah!!! No! Bad idea! As a black, transgender woman; I have one hell of stake in opposing racism, sexism, and homophobia. That doesn’t change the fact that this is a terrible idea. Being able to officially say that someone’s beliefs are wrong, not because they don’t hold up to evidence/testing, but because the believer is mentally ill? Goodbye, rational debate….

Filip

Jasmine maybe you want to say sorry for the word “disingenuous”.
Things I write may be be wrong but they are not dishonest.
By the way I didn´t write that there is no “industrialisation -> paedophobia link”. Probably there is such a link. But I don´t believe economic aspects are the real reason for pedophobia.

Jasmine

I apologize if you were offended by my choice of words. I am exceptionally bad at predicting when I’m going to hurt people’s feelings.

Lensman

In every country of the world today adult-child-love is forbidden and stigmatized so the main reason for pedophobia is not the economic system.
Well, that’s not strictly true. There are countries like the Yemen and Afghanistan where there is no age of consent. Granted sex has to happen in the context of some kind of marriage.
One also has to look at the history of countries – and here I have to confess to patchy knowledge – but it seems that UK consent laws originally were to do with control of the exchange of girls and made no reference to the girls’ age. This would have been during (pre-capitalist) feudal times,
Also have a browse through the Growing up Sexually Archive (you’ll find several links to it on this page). It is absolutely packed full of examples of societies where child sexuality was (still is?) encouraged and where child-adult sexual interaction were licit. Again, all the societies with sex-positive attitudes are communistic (in the strict sense of living highly communal lives) and non-capitalist.
But I agree that generally modern nations forbid and control child-adult sexuality. But how many of those countries are not either capitalist in some form or other, or aspiring to be capitalist, or subject to capitalist powers?

Lensman

That certainly tests my hypothesis, Tom! I don’t think that 13th century England could by any stretch of the imagination be described as ‘Capitalist’ or ‘Industrial’.
I suppose a lot hangs on what the word ‘ravish’ means (I’ve read quotes where the word used is ‘ravage’). I’d assume that ‘rape’ would have already been illegal (unless the rapist were the woman’s husband) and would doubt that the law previous to the 1275 would have permitted the rape of girls under the age of 12 – so I’d be surprised if ‘ravage/ravish’ simply meant ‘rape’.
It would be interesting to know what wording was used in the laws forbidding rape of women who were of age?
Does ‘ravish/ravage’ mean ‘sexual intercourse’ or any sexual acts? The word ‘ravage’, to 21st century ears, has much more aggressive overtones.
There is the possible interpretation that a woman who was of age would have had to exhibit signs of struggle in order for the act to be interpreted as ‘rape’, whereas the word ‘ravish/ravage’ may have had a nuance that served to remove that stipulation.
Interestingly in 1576 there is a law that made “it a felony to ‘unlawfully and carnally know and abuse any woman child under the age of 10 years’ [which] was generally interpreted as creating more severe punishments when girls were under 10 years old while retaining the lesser punishment for acts with 10- and 11-year-old girls.” (http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/case-studies/230)
Again it would be interesting to know exactly what was meant by “unlawfully and carnally know”.
This whole field of the history of the age of consent and sexual attitudes towards children is one I’m very curious about but I haven’t been able to find any good book on the subject – I’d be very grateful for any recommendations.

Cyril

“FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THIS ESSAY CONCENTRATES TOO MUCH ON ECONOMIC REASONS FOR PEDOPHOBIA… SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE ABOUT HOMOPHOBIA IDENTIFIED AND EXPLORED LOTS OF REASONS FOR HOMOPHOBIA AND PEDOPHOBIA HAS LOTS OF REASONS TOO.”
Again. If that literature was really scientific it would look for one reason, not for lots of it — in accordance to Occam Razor Principle.

Jack Summer

State capitalism (which leads to corporatism)? Then I agree largely with your post.
Nuclear Family
Have you even been to the American south? Community is often much important and prevalent down there. The nuclear family as an island is a problem that occurs with urbanization. This makes sense, there are simply too many people to be communal with. Also, please note that in the early and mid 1900s children were much more free, as is often the story told by older people when a modern free range parent gets arrested because they allowed their child freedom. The emotional dependence being so extreme between parent/child was not there. The isolation of the nuclear families really took off in the late 70s and 80s.
Where have the children gone?
As for children in public places cars seem to be less of a problem, since children after the age of four or five can easily be taught safety around the streets, and more to do with the modern kidnapper/paedosexual panic. Again, once the 70s/80s panics started and child safety became a huge issue then children began staying home, having highly regimented activities, and staying inside to play video games became appealing because going outside was boring and restrictive.
Disappearance from the workforce was the result of anti-capitalist mentality. At least, anti-free market mentality. Though in more rural areas children still do work with the family, but the mentality of “kids have to attend school” has became so prevalent that it makes that happen even less. Schools will be addressed later.
Education
Later as in right now 😛
Schools are literally a socialist system. Especially in their forced nature as they are now. Their primary function is not to educate in the slightest, it is to indoctrinate and to create a compliant populace. Schools do not promote individualistic or free market ideas. They promote forced community (which is also different than what you advocate) and Keynesian economics.
Most free market capitalists/libertarians do not like forced public education because it is not conducive to promoting voluntarist thought. Here is a good video explaining what people like me actually think the point of schools are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyXGYM6XGA
Privacy
This just seems to be based moral systems. Many pre-industrial societies didn’t like sexuality either. Many families now still co-sleep.
The Innocent Child archetype
The innocent child archetype was a religious ideal that started hitting heavy in the late 1800s/early 1900s. Now that families are more locked together for reasons we may not agree on, the ideal becomes much easier to enforce. I fail to see how this has anything to do with any economic structure. Whether it be one I hate or one I like.
The Consumer Child
None of your criticisms are feasible without forced public education. So I fail to see how a free market is the problem but I do see how the state is a problem.
The sexualization of kids is bad, but it is just nature, since sexual children are natural. It is an example of how the market will find a way, regardless of state enforced restriction. Except, like with black markets, these expressions, this sexualization, is not good. There are many many money making opportunities in a society that openly accepts child sexuality and paedosexual relationships. So a free market is now going to avoid it unless most people involved in that market dislike it.
Anyway, as on Girl Chat, I seem to feel you dislike the state. All your criticisms, in my opinion, have their root in the state, religion, and extreme feminism. Not in free markets. Which is what capitalism to me and I think it prudent you distinguish that you mean to say State Capitalism.
Remember, if an entire society decides to live in a pre-industrial setting, that is still a free market. It is when a power class starts forcing people to be involved or to follow certain rules or restricting people. Then it is not a free market.

Lensman

Thanks for that Jack Summer, I was expecting a muscular response from you and you haven’t disappointed. You raise a lot of points and my impulse is to write a reply that I fear would be almost as long as the original essay. 🙁
But first let me assure you that my intention has not been to knock capitalism. But given that we live in a ‘capitalist’ society and that paedophobia appears ubiquitous in these societies my intention has only been to understand why this is the case.
Personally I’ve done well by capitalism – I’ve had an idyllic childhood in a very loving nuclear family, I’ve had an excellent and prolonged education and loved every moment of it, and I live a comfortable and secure life.
But this shouldn’t stop me asking ‘why does capitalism appear paedophobic?’ and seeking answers to that question any more than I may ask ‘why does my stomach ache when I eat too much curry and drink too much beer’ nor does asking such a question mean that I dislike my stomach, or, for that matter, curry and beer.
Honestly, I’ve really tried my best to be value-free and impartial (ok – I’ll admit some value judgments crept in to the ‘Consumer child’ section…) – I mean I could have tried to write about ‘Paedophobia in Reformation Germany’ – but that would hardly address the problems we are facing today.
To avoid hogging too much space I’ll just address a couple of points you make for the moment
Nuclear Family
I agree that there is a lot of overlap between the effects of urbanisation and the effects of capitalism so it’s not always easy to distinguish and separate out cause and effect.
Moreover a society doesn’t have to consist of only nuclear families for the nuclear family to determine that society’s perception of childhood, given that extended, and other non-nuclear, families will generally be accessing the dominant culture and assimilating its values. A household that includes uncles, aunts, grandparents, cousins, family friends and the brinded pig will still watch the Cosby Show, the News and the same movies as a resident of suburban Los Angeles – the family may be non-conventional but they still will generally be embedded in the majority culture.
I also agree that many children were more free in the early 1900s – though in earlier centuries the chances were that those children would have been less free, having to work long hours in order to help their family make ends meet. The impetus for the innocent child largely started amongst intellectuals in the late 18th century (Rousseau, Blake, Wordsworth, Goethe) and a growing middle classe, who, because their wealth and the leisure, didn’t need to send their kids out to work, nor were as dependent on the community as the proletariat.
Where have the children gone?
>
As for children in public places cars seem to be less of a problem, since children after the age of four or five can easily be taught safety around the streets,
Here I tend to agree with paranoid parents – the leading cause of death for children between the ages of 2 and 14 are motor cars ( http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809762.pdf ). I wouldn’t have let my 5 year old play on the same streets I played on 40 years ago when I was her age! Look at any photo of the suburbs from 30, 40, 60, 80 years ago – they look eerily empty.
The Consumer Child
>There are many many money making opportunities in a society that openly accepts child sexuality and paedosexual relationships. So a free market is now going to avoid it unless most people involved in that market dislike it.
But if that sexuality doesn’t involve or promote consumption then what advantage is there in it for the capitalists? Leave sexuality to the markets and you will always end up with a sexuality that is geared to consumption and consumer values.

Jasmine

Quibble #1:
“if an entire society decides to live in a pre-industrial setting, that is still a free market. It is when a power class starts forcing people to be involved or to follow certain rules or restricting people. Then it is not a free market.”
No. That is indeed a free something – “free society”, “free community” – but not a free market. To have a free market you need more than just the free – you need the market. A market necessitates trade/exchange. It’s certainly possible that the people you describe would operate based on principles of commodity-exchange, but that’s certainly not a given. Gift economies and pure subsistence economies are both free but neither have markets. (Of course, I’d take the freedom to trade over gift economies any day).
Quibble #2:
“[The] primary function [of schools] is not to educate in the slightest, it is to indoctrinate and to create a compliant populace. Schools do not promote individualistic or free market ideas.”
I doubt that they are actively trying to do this (so no on intent) and they probably aren’t actually doing this (so no on effect). As far as I can tell, schools barely do anything. I’m quite sceptical of their long-term ability to influence people’s thoughts and behaviour – as much as they try to. To me, schools just seem to be holding bins parents dump us in for a few hours a day while deceiving themselves into believing they’re having a positive effect (or any effect) on their kids.
On the other hand, the social environment of schools and the relationships it fosters do seem to be important in the long run.
Quibble #3:
“[Schools] promote […] Keynesian economics”
How do public schools cause Keynesianism???
BTW: What exactly are your objections to Keynesian Economics? What economic schools/traditions would you identify yourself with?

Jack Summer

How do public schools cause Keynesianism???
Keynesian economics requires the regulation and control of the market by the state. It makes sense that state run public schools will promote a view consistent with giving them more power.
I believe that regulation on the market causes more harm than good. That most of the problems we have had (like The Great Depression) were a result of the state meddling in the market (like the The Federal Reserve Act)
Note that I do not believe markets that are not regulated through centralized violence will create a utopia, only that it will bring about the best outcome for humanity. Most of the problems people have with industrial America in the late 1800s/early 1900s was caused by state intervention or businessmen buying off state officials as well as oppression of the lower class by the state etc.
I subscribe to the Austrian school of economics for the most part.

Jasmine

“It makes sense that state run public schools will promote a view consistent with giving them more power.”
But most public schools (excepting public universities) don’t give a nuanced enough view of economics for them to know their Keynes from their Friedman; much less passionately support interventionist economics. Universities that teach economics tend teach with enough nuance that, even if they may be biased, I doubt one could characterise it as indoctrination.
“I believe that regulation on the market causes more harm than good.”
Would this include using the instruments of the law to punish, say, fraud? Given how grey the definition of what constitutes fraud is, any amount of enforcement could be fairly characterised as regulating the economy. Yet, if fraud were completely decriminalised, trade would start breaking down.
“I subscribe to the Austrian school of economics for the most part.”
While I’m sympathetic to libertarian views in general and especially consequentialist & bleeding-heart libertarianism, I’m intensely sceptical of Austrianism. I tend to round it off to astrology and homeopathy due to their similar levels of emphasis on empirical evidence.

Jack Summer

Universities that teach economics tend teach with enough nuance that, even if they may be biased, I doubt one could characterise it as indoctrination.
You severely underestimate the indoctrination public schools partake in. All history classes show strong favor to government intervention. This promotes Keynesian style economics. No they do not specifically mention it, but understand that indoctrination does not need to be obvious, usually it isn’t.
Would this include using the instruments of the law to punish, say, fraud? Given how grey the definition of what constitutes fraud is, any amount of enforcement could be fairly characterised as regulating the economy. Yet, if fraud were completely decriminalised, trade would start breaking down.
One could sue for damages from fraud. Not to mention companies that partake in fraud won’t lat particularly long. Fraud, under a centralized or decentralized legal structure, would always be illegal and suing for damages from fraud is not a market regulation.
I tend to round it off to astrology and homeopathy due to their similar levels of emphasis on empirical evidence.
You don’t know much about it then and have done little research into it. If you have then you have blindly ignored any evidence shown. It sounds like you read the wikipedia page of criticisms. I can make the same exact claim about interventionist economic structures, honestly. That they take a lot of faith but not much empirical evidence, considering intervention has consistently made things worse such as in America where as in, say, China, where it is becoming more capitalist (or Hong Kong where it is very capitalist) the economy and standard of living are increasing.
I have no intention of continuing this by the way. If you are interested read some Rothbard. I only meant to post one response to Lensman’s post. I want people to see their philosophies rely on forcing people to do what they want and partake in involuntary interactions.

Jasmine

I don’t mean that the predictions made by Austrian economists tend to be false (it seems to be a mixed bag): I mean the methodology is philosophically rationalist. The Austrians spell out quite clearly that their models are based on logical derivation from axioms. There are many well reasoned defenses of philosophical rationalism – Plato himself was a rationalist! I simply disagree with this position and would need to be convinced of it’s validity before I could accept a system based upon it. I’m an empiricist I’d I’ll need a lot of convincing to bite the axiomatic bullet.
Frankly, if you’re going to claim that the Austrians are empiricists, I have to wonder how thoroughly you’ve studied your own theoretical traditions. The rationalism isn’t hidden. It isn’t denied. It isn’t an accusation leveled upon it by the evil, evil Classical Economists. Just checking out a couple publications by the damn Mises Institute reveals it. They’re proud of it. They are honest about their beliefs and those beliefs are rationalist. It’s like if a committed Platonist said that Plato loved democracy!
I agree that this thread has run it’s course. I think I’ve been ad hominem’d enough for one blog post. 🙂

120
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
Scroll to Top