Whatever we may think of Trump and the MAGA fans, the voters of America gave a startling wake-up call against woke politics earlier this month. It wasn’t just the economy or immigration that won it for “the Donald”. There is clear evidence that what tipped the balance of an election forecast to be finely balanced was the identity politics with which Kamala Harris was so strongly associated. In the first of two related blogs, today I will examine the implications for future MAP strategy, not that I will be saying much about that today. Instead, I will focus on how the wheels have come off the transgender political bandwagon, with particular reference to the damage done by activist extremism.
Trans women are men. Get over it.
Not my words, but those of trans woman Debbie Hayton.
Blunt language.
So, she must be a self-hating transphobe, right? Wrong! What science teacher Hayton hates after years of being subjected to the bogus “transphobia” slur, which wrecked her opportunity to lead the teachers’ union NASUWT after she had been elected president, is the untold harm done to trans kids by unhinged activists who have lost all touch with reality.
Truths about transness have been swept under the carpet for years now, the inevitable outcome being that “woke” ideology on the topic has been utterly discredited – so much so that it could well have been the tipping factor that has given Trump another term. A single campaign ad on this theme shifted viewer opinion 2.7 percentage points towards him according to data gathered for Kamala Harris’s side.
Prodigious HTOC commentator “Prue” gave us a hefty steer on the idiocy of the ideologues by posting a link the other day to a YouTube video by Sophia Narwitz – another trans woman with her head screwed on properly, unlike the swivel-headed ranters. We learn that, according to the sort of activists who are “their own worst enemy”, straight guys are transphobic if they prefer to date actual women rather than trans ones, who may well still have a penis. These woke whingers seem to have forgotten that for relationships to work they need to be based on mutual attraction and consent. You can’t just demand that someone else should find you sexy. With the best will in the world, that’s not how sexual attraction works.
What the extremists have managed to get away with very successfully, though, is their argumentum ad baculum. In plain English, “Agree with me, or there will be… consequences” – a word freighted with all the understated menace of a gentle word in your ear from the mafia. These are no empty threats. The “consequences” might include anything from getting someone fired from their job for alleged transphobic speech, to making hostile moves involving their children, as happened to psychology professor Mike Bailey, to launching police investigations over so-called “hate incidents”.
We have been under a tsunami of the latter lately, haven’t we? As The Times reported recently, “13,200 hate incidents had been logged in the past year, including against schoolchildren, vicars and doctors”. Some look superficially quite amusing, too bonkers to be taken seriously, such as a front-page lead story in The Sun a couple of days ago, about a hate complaint based on someone being given “a dodgy haircut”. Another complaint was literally batty: someone was reported for asking whether a Chinese meal came “with bats”. Another was a Welsh so-called victim upset over being called a “sheep shagger”, which everyone knows is something all rural Welsh males get up to, starting from about age five, as soon as they are strong enough to hold the sheep steady, with its back legs down their cute little wellies.
Sticking with the trans-themed ones, ex-police officer Harry Miller won a legal challenge at the Court of Appeal after Humberside police logged alleged transphobic tweets from him as “non-crime hate incidents” (NCHIs). His posts on X included, “l was assigned mammal at birth, but my orientation is fish. Don’t mis-species me.” A NCHI was logged in Cumbria after a victim complained they had been misgendered, and in Northumbria a caller reported “incorrect pronouns” were used when addressing them. These, bear in mind, were complaints to the police – in other words, complaints which would inevitably have consequences, tying up Miller and so many others in lengthy legal procedures aimed at the difficult but vitally needed task of clearing their names of any wrong-doing.
To appreciate exactly why even a clearly tough and combative ex-cop like Miller should not be subjected to the chilling effect of such possible consequences, it will help if we come back to Debbie Hayton, with whom we might feel a lot more in common and who plainly knows what she is talking about – unlike Miller, whose forte is the law and free speech rights rather than trans issues, although he has made clear he is not anti-trans. “Don’t mis-species me” is a clever line, but if he’d totally mastered his satirical brief he’d have said “but I identify as fish”. We can perfectly well identify as fish, after all, but have an orientation towards mammals.
Pedantic? Trust me, in the confusing world of sex/gender semantics it is impossible to be too pedantic. There are times when conceptual exactitude is imperative. The deliberately disruptive queer strategy of challenging hegemonic, heteronormative concepts through such means as contesting established binaries has its uses, but it is also capable of marooning us in a meaningless verbal morass, leaving us vulnerable to stupid policy making that harms kids.
So, back to Hayton. I described her as a trans woman, but that is a term we need to unpack if we are to understand why she is so utterly at odds with all those other trans women who insist that “Trans women are women” and there should be no debate about it. In particular, we need to get our heads around the clunky term “autogynephilia”. It’s a safe bet that few of the many celebrities from showbiz, sport, etc., who have been quick to jump aboard the fashionable trans bandwagon, lecturing us on how we just need to be kind and understanding, have even heard the word. They may be genuinely kind. But understanding? Not so much.
The trouble is that the public at large, including the celebs, have a poor understanding of what it means to be transgender. Even worse, they mistakenly believe they do know plenty, especially on the liberal side. Which is why the gung ho libs and radicals cannot see any reason for discussing trans rights when, as they think, all that is needed is to uphold them. Specifically, they appear to be largely unaware that there are significantly different types of trans psychology, which have major (and differing) political implications.
One of these types is autogynephilia. Psychologist Ray Blanchard worked out back in the 1980s that trans women fall into one of two very different psychologies. First were “homosexual transsexuals”: gay men whose boyhood effeminacy can make living as a woman seem an almost “natural” next step. The second are “autogynephiles”: heterosexual men who mainly transition later, often after fathering children. Not only are they sexually attracted to women, just like regular straight guys, they often have very masculine interests and jobs. As a young newspaper reporter back in the 1970s, I encountered Roberta Cowell, who had been a Spitfire pilot in WW2 and later became a racing driver. These males (Roberta had started life as Robert and will not mind me “deadnaming” her now she has been actually dead for many years) are sexually turned on not only by cross-dressing but by the idea of being a woman.
Blanchard’s theory was adapted by doctor and psychologist Anne Lawrence, to whom I was introduced at a conference in Paris many years ago. Anne is herself an autogynephilic trans woman, who argues autogynephilia is both a sexual and romantic attraction. She and I had what I felt was an interesting, pleasant, mutually respectful encounter, discussing both transgender and paedophilia.
One reason we hear so little about autogynephilia, apart from the less than catchy name, is sheer fear. There are militant activists who hate this now well substantiated concept, are in denial about its reality, and who do their damnedest to make sure there are serious “consequences” for those who publicly give it credence – the most prominent among them, perhaps, being Mike Bailey, author of The Man Who Would Be Queen, which goes into the evidence for autogynephilia. He is a leading professor who has courageously championed my pro-MAP writing. They call him a transphobe. I know he is not. But why the controversy? Why the denial?
“First”, said Hayton in a recent Times story, “what man wants to admit fancying himself? Second, the ‘the wrong body’ theory posits being trans as a terrible misfortune, so everybody needs to be kind to us and give us rights. Whereas if you’re having an affair with yourself you’re obliged to take responsibility for your own actions and the damage you cause.” Damage? What damage? She continues:
Moreover, it’s harder to demand access to intimate female spaces if that need is erotically motivated. For decades, transsexual women have relied upon female goodwill to use their bathrooms and changing rooms, but self-ID destroyed that precious trust. Women were happy to take in the odd refugee from masculinity. But in the past five years it’s become a wave of colonisers, and that is very different.
As her interlocutor in The Times says:
These days, Hayton’s classic “persistent, consistent and insistent” childhood [gender] dysphoria may have led to doctors prescribing puberty blockers and hormones. Does she wish she’d transitioned earlier? Hayton points to a photograph of her adult children on the wall. “There’s three people who wouldn’t be here if I had – and not being able to have your own kids is huge. … Second, try finding a life partner as a post-operative 22-year-old trans woman attracted to females. Your dating pool is tiny. Basically, you’re looking at bisexual women and many of them end up with men.”
What we are hearing from Hayton, I suggest, is a perfectly reasonable plea for caution over early surgical transition, from someone with unimpeachable personal experience. She has her own recent book Transsexual Apostate: My Journey Back to Reality. Of course, her story is not the whole story of transness. Social transition is much more common and much less drastic than the full-on physical kind, which relatively few trans kids will undergo. But the numbers are not trivial. More than 14,000 American children had gender-related medical interventions between 2019 and 2023, of which 5,747 minors received gender-transition surgeries. That is boys having their dicks cut off and girls losing their tits. Serious, heavy stuff. Not something to be chosen on a whim like getting your ears pierced or having a tattoo done.
And don’t be deceived by the counter-argument that trans kids are at even greater risk, from suicide, if they are denied the puberty blockers that could start them happily on their way towards cross-sex hormones and full surgical transition. You know the activist slogan, “Better a live daughter than a dead son”. It’s bullshit. The figures do not stack up. Trans kids often have mental health problems that sadly means they have a higher level of suicidal feelings than average; but the balance of research evidence does not point to an elevated suicide rate in the absence of gender-confirming treatment. The loony militants are also deep in denial of de-transitioning, falsely claiming hardly anyone ever regrets undergoing trans medical procedures. They have to keep up this pretence because the truth would prick their propaganda bubble.
Prue rightly pointed out in the comments space here recently that there is no conspiracy of “trans groomers coming for your kids”. That expression implies a sexual motive for which there is no evidence. Some militant trans activists are shamelessly devious, but there is no reason to suppose they are “deviant” in the implied way. In this respect, the “groomer” allegation is the sort of baseless fearmongering one might often see in the right-wing social media.
But Prue has also shrewdly drawn attention to the role of capitalism in our affairs. What’s that got to do with it? Plenty. Just follow the money. It is no accident that it is in the US, where medicine is a business like any other, that the bad stuff has been most rife. Not grooming for sex but pushing for profit. Much like the Big Pharma drug pushers behind the American opiate epidemic, hormone treatments and cosmetic surgery (that’s what trans operations are, medically unnecessary just like nose jobs and butt lifts but far more drastic) have been pushed on kids in the US just because there is profit in them.
It is also no accident that it is in Europe, where medicine is largely a not-for-profit public service, that patient’s interests come first, and where the transgender treatment scam has been most effectively exposed and demolished. Remember the UK’s landmark Cass Review earlier this year? It has been widely hailed for its calm, careful, thorough, trawl through the issues and the research evidence, along with smaller reviews from other European countries that have come to similar conclusions. America, by contrast, has seen high-profile attempts to trash its findings, with a series of feeble, distorted, false “rebuttals” emanating from outfits that have fallen to profit-driven regulatory capture (in the guise of championing trans rights) including the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), and the staggeringly super woke magazine Scientific American – which long ago sacrificed science to liberal politics.
Let’s support adults in their choices, and also minors, but only once we can be sure they truly know what they are doing. This must be not only after proving themselves “persistent, consistent and insistent” but also after being properly counselled on the downside of any choices as well as the benefits.
Trans treatment options are not the main point of this two-part blog, though, just a necessary step on the way. The even bigger issue I want to get across next time concerns how we need to get back to reality in progressive political activism, whether it be of the trans variety, or MAP, or whatever. The big question is how we can generate credible, truthful messages rather than peddling fantasies such as “trans women are women” when plainly they are not, in anything but a courtesy sense. I have no problem with using someone’s preferred pronouns, respecting trans people’s legitimate employment rights, etc., but there are compelling reasons why we should not allow our language to be hijacked.
It is a deep subject, taking us into the philosophy of language and the different ways in which culture and biology influence our thinking on gender, sex, and the often confusing relationship between them. While the massive legal implications of all this will not be my primary concern, it is worth just briefly noting that the UK Supreme Court has spent the last two days pondering the “What is a woman?” question, in a case brought by For Women Scotland. With any luck, by the time the second part of this blog comes out the ruling in this case will have been given and I’ll be able to say a few words about it, including any policy implications.
IT’S NOT THE SEX, IT’S THE VIOLENCE
They say it is unprecedented. No Archbishop of Canterbury has ever been forced to resign over a “sin of omission”, or possibly anything else (although a couple have been martyred), in more than one and a half thousand years since the top church job in England was created by Pope Gregory the Great in 597. Until now.
So, even after decades of decline in active membership of the country’s “established” church, the resignation of Archbishop Justin Welby this month following a child abuse scandal is a big deal.
And no wonder he had to go, because this time there can be no dispute as to the abuse in question really being grotesquely abusive, with very little excuse for Welby being unaware of it or for failing to act more decisively against the abuser.
As readers in Britain will probably be aware, I am referring to John Smyth, a barrister whose sadistic beatings of teenage boys and young men over a period of decades in a context of church-related activities was documented in the recent Makin Review. He ran the influential conservative evangelical Iwerne camps, and had acted as a lawyer for Mary Whitehouse, a notoriously censorious Christian morality campaigner in her day. The Iwerne Trust organised Christian holiday camps to instruct boys from public school in “muscular Christianity” and, with a conservative evangelical theology, to become future Christian leaders, especially within the Church of England.
A book documenting Smyth’s dark deeds came out in 2021. Bleeding for Jesus: John Smyth and the Cult of the Iwerne Camps was written by Andrew Graystone, a journalist and theologian who had been involved in Smyth’s exposure. Graystone described how Smyth involved himself with boys in the Christian Forum at Winchester College, one of Britain’s most prestigious fee-paying schools.
He would regularly drive two or three boys from this group to his home just outside Winchester, to share Sunday lunch with him and his family. “Those boys whom he had successfully groomed”, as his Wikipedia entry puts it, would individually be taken to a shed in his garden and subjected to canings, “initially equating to the severity of their supposed spiritual infringement” or specific “sin”. Knowing teenage boys, masturbation was doubtless the top “sin” on the list: Smyth often preached against it.
These canings were so prolonged and ferocious that the boys were given adult nappies to prevent them from bleeding on the Smyth family furniture. Smyth had a special garden shed designed, soundproofed and equipped with a variety of canes. When he was carrying out a beating a white yachting pennant would be planted on the lawn so that his wife Anne and members of his family knew that he should not be disturbed.
Hideous, or what?
But the most disturbing thing is that no one at the time appears to have been disturbed. The church hierarchy, as well as Smyth’s family, must have known what was going on, according to a number of investigations; but all of them, including Welby, decided for far too long that Smyth “should not be disturbed”.
The Makin Review describes a focus on personal sinfulness in the church, “a default sense of guilt, defectiveness, submission”, often focused on young men’s masturbation. But as high-profile vicar Giles Fraser noted, “Christ died for our sins, he was whipped for our transgressions”. So, it is not very surprising that earnest Christian young men could easily be persuaded that their religion required their own, Christ-like personal suffering.
Did I say the church’s silence was the most disturbing thing? Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that these young males appeared to have submitted to the beatings of their own free will. These were not little kids. They were committed Christians who had long enjoyed the benefits of a sophisticated, expensive education. They included those who were well over the age of consent and might be thought to have known their own minds and had the right to decide such matters for themselves. After all, few now dispute the right of adults to take part in BDSM practices.
Well, I don’t know about you, but I am not at all comfortable with that thought. It complicates the question of consent, doesn’t it?
THE PENNY DROPS AT LAST
Would you Adam and Eve it, just as I dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s of my main article above, into my inbox drops news from America that supports my case against trans activist extremism more convincingly than anything I could possibly write myself.
It’s a cough. A confession. Trans activists in America have started to admit that their tactics have backfired, with electoral consequences. A report in The New York Times sets it out all very clearly, so I hardly need add a thing. The following is taken, unadorned, from the first few paragraphs of a substantial report:
After a Democratic congressman defended parents who expressed concern about transgender athletes competing against their young daughters, a local party official and ally compared him to a Nazi “cooperator” and a group called “Neighbors Against Hate” organized a protest outside his office.
When J.K. Rowling said that denying any relationship between sex and biology was “deeply misogynistic and regressive,” a prominent L.G.B.T.Q. group accused her of betraying “real feminism.” A few angry critics posted videos of themselves burning her books.
When the Biden administration convened a call with L.G.B.T.Q. allies last year to discuss new limits on the participation of transgender student athletes, one activist fumed on the call that the administration would be complicit in “genocide” of transgender youth, according to two people with knowledge of the incident.
Now, some activists say it is time to rethink and recalibrate their confrontational ways, and are pushing back against the more all-or-nothing voices in their coalition.
“We have to make it OK for someone to change their minds,” said Rodrigo Heng-Lehtinen, executive director of Advocates for Transgender Equality. “We cannot vilify them for not being on our side. No one wants to join that team.”
Precisely, Rodrigo! Just such a shame it took y’all so long for the penny to drop.
Below, there was discussion of the Consenting Humans blog, a great blog btw. In following the link to his site, I noticed posts about a French book on the history of support for intergen sex, children’s rights, etc.
So, I made a page for the author, and learnt some interesting things in the process. If anyone speaks / reads French and wants to work on translating Retour en enfance: La question pédophile (Back to childhood: The pedophile question – Collection Revue L’Infini (no.59), Gallimard: Autumn, 1997), that would be a cool contribution.
See https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Pierre_Verdrager
Um, well, happy new year everyone. 25 years ago was a different time. 16 year olds could still pose topless in papers. and own a photo of their own body. being with legal teens wasnt as taboo as now.
16 year olds could pop in the pub for a pint, if they looked 18. sigh. last year was grim, i got called a child rapist on blue sky, i get called
creepy
andweird
for talking to 18 year olds. and someone talked about people being stabbed when i tried to talk to him and his bird. is there any reason to be positive about this next year??Lots to look forward to, or to at least have a go at. If you meet an 18-year-old who’s not interested in you, move on to the next one asap. It’s not personal.
I saw people recommending this book, from a bestselling self-help author.
For any non-straights out there, it really cuts to the hetero/homo divide and explains by proxxy a lot of straight male behavior. I think you, Matt, might resonate with much of it and find it helpful…
thing is even if they were interested in me , a much older person , i would be bullied. hm ok, but being autistic it makes things even more difficult. ive really been cursed… is the author an anti though?
attracting women, hm, but i want girls? i mean i call people unde 30 girls generally, as it makes them sound younger 🙂
In the comments below, someone mentioned and quoted composer Tchaikovsky’s apparent pederasty, so I did some digging and produced a page on it. “Queer” Tchaikovsky for everyone :p
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Tchaikovsky
Well done, Prue.
Not totally off topic Tom, the “Grooming” Gangs back in the News. Now Elon Musk is talking about it. I hate the catch-all word grooming, I call it a seduction pejorative. There are some horrific stories that were obviously not consensual and what seems to be the pimping of white girls by Pakistani men. To a normie someone pro-MAP would seem unlikely to have sympathy but that is what decades of media indoctrination brings. Not to mention that most were teens therefore not in the category of paedophilia but any clear definition would just baffle the public as some BBC journalist said and mentioned on this site once. It was actually the BNP that first talked about this but probably wont get much credit, not that the BNP wasn’t full of some nasty characters but a broken clock is right twice per day. What do you make of it all Tom?
>Not totally off topic Tom
Not at all off topic, Pat. This is clearly a MAP concern. I have blogged about it before, notably here:
https://heretictoc.com/2013/06/17/street-grooming-a-nut-to-be-cracked/
I had no idea you had been on here since 2013! If only i knew. i was on Youtube, and thats it. but you could talk a lot more on there back then !
They probably use this term because they consider minors to be their obedient dogs.
>Not totally off topic Tom, the “Grooming” Gangs back in the News.
Totally on-topic the ‘grooming gangs’ ARE the Anglo fake media EVIL Mafia.
Grooming their kept dumb masses to falsely believe that MAPs and Muslims are EVIL.
“Here is the News. This is what we want you to think.”
Initially straight-cops didn’t prosecute but rightly reported that underage girls AAMs were ‘lifestyle choice’ proactively seeking older guys MAPs with smart cars & bling. Until Anglo SeX-Filled ‘Family’ fake media whined, “Their brains between their ears ain’t developed enuff to know wot’s between their legs!”
And, untold by Anglo Fake Media bent-cops began their own GANGS GROOMING (criminal tampering with) WITNESSES by pro-active TRAWLING to every likely ‘victim’ and then (untaped) LYING that the defendant had already been variously accused ‘fake corroboration-by-volume’. So that ANYONE can join the BIG Compo Bandwagon as a fake VICTIM-SURVIVOR for MeToo MoreDough – DOH!
E.G. Defenseless dead MAP wealthy Savile, no evidence, much gossip, no trial in 21st Century Totalitarian Tabloid Phoney Anglophonia. But ‘GUILTY’ in the court of Anglo Coward King Murdoch/BBC BiasedByCommission (& omission) and Co COWARDS.
https://www.apersonalhistory.com/Bill_D%27Arcy/Pages2015/Trawling.html
>Initially straight-cops didn’t prosecute but rightly reported that underage girls AAMs were ‘lifestyle choice’ proactively seeking older guys MAPs with smart cars & bling.
Flipped script: Underage girls AAMs WERE/ARE ‘Grooming Gangs’ proactively seeking older guys MAPs.
“case files show staff concluding that vulnerable children were ‘engaging in consensual sexual activity’ and ‘making their own choices’.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/sep/27/rochdale-police-sex-abuse-girls
Everything that comes out of Musks mouth is lies.
Cringe, overplayed, barely veiled racist bullshit to me. Not impunging you, Pat, but I’m not stupid enough to believe that all the talk of “ship ’em back to their own country!”, “there’s too many of ’em here!”, “nobody cares about British (i.e. white) people!”, is motivated by purely altruistic concerns. Poverty, wealth inequality, the housing crisis – in a word, “austerity” as the best PM Britain never had Jeremy Corbyn used to bang on about – this can be solved without a hint of racism. Race doesn’t even come into it!
Getting the browns out mass deportation style, perhaps black bagging them in unmarked cars, or putting them on prison boats: as much as it makes for great TV, it won’t suddenly lead to more funding for the NHS, more available council housing, or better wages to cost of living for us all. It does nothing to affect working people’s taxes, or the super rich not paying their taxes. In fact, it really does nothing at all other than lead to marginally less brown people in the country. For some people that’s reason enough to care, but I quite like the browns personally; i just dislike signs of poverty; cities where gangs of poor black men are stood around all day doing nothing: it’s intimidating and unnerving even if they don’t intend to be…
The fact that people now care so much, is a testament to the power of media. It’s incredible that people have come to believe it’ll benefit them in any meaningful way. But, it effectively plays of half truths and popular prejudice, as well as fears around men and male sexuality. People get duped into believing that all browns are secret terrorists in the making, or chomping at the bit to risk everything just for the chance to date rape a woman. Or, dare we say, “groom” a young girl.
There have been some good debunks of the grooming gang narrative, but of course our great, rich elite future Overlord Prime Minister Nigel Farage (“hail ze glorious leader! Seig heil!”), wouldn’t tell you that… See, e.g. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QSH_Gs19uz8
The majority of the UK are white, so the majority of sex crime is committed by white people. “Grooming gangs” are already considered one of the most serious crimes and dealt with accordingly by the authorities. How anyone believes the police would “shield” men they see as rapists, simply because they are brown, is beyond me.
The issue has been relentlessly played up by racist ideologues hiding their power level. To Tommy Robinson, Islam is pedophilic in nature thanks to Aisha, Mohammed’s 9YO bride, even though it’s irrelevant as we don’t see Muslims mass marrying 9-year-olds. The same way we don’t see Christians crucifying themselves; you don’t have to copy everything in your holy text. But… who am I kidding, these people are so biased they’ll take anything that makes Muslims / browns look bad. For him, “these fuckers are raping their way through our towns.” Utterly ridiculous, but he has to say it. He’s destroyed his entire life to die on this hill, he can’t stop now or he’s truly lost everything…
There’s a very clear obsession with brown-coded “muslim / pakistani / grooming gangs”, when if they really cared, they’d be banging on about white people being “groomers” and “predators.” The issue provides a convenient scapegoat to veil one’s racial biases behind sensitive issues with mass appeal, and ignore the real issues facing the majority of people: wealth inequality, housing, social mobility, supporting a family, etc.
It’s called “false consciousness” in Marxist terms. It’s what the political Right always do: blame whichever group is considered different enough to be scary and contemptible. Never capitalists making record profits from hiking up your electricity and gas costs, always minorities. No wonder big business finances their campaigns, no wonder they get prominent media spots…
Pedophiles, brown people, trans people – all tarnished with the brush of rapist and groomer. It’s a tactic to stigmatize minority populations more broadly, and distract from the elite class pillaging more and more profit from the labour of working people.
Also, people can lie about serious things, especially when there is clout and attention to be gained:
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Eleanor_Williams
And of course, there are horribly abusive relationships between people of different faiths, ages, skin colors, etc. There is no debate when a man beats a young lady into submission and fucks her. The debates are around situations that are hard to believe or involve an “I consented, but…”
As ever, the problem is when mutual relationships between young girls and older guys – in this cases interracial ones – are treated legally and social as rape when they involve no force or coercion. Socially, this is perhaps because the family are upset at the male being brown, Muslim, older, or all of the above. The age component can be focused on to obscure the racial component…
I have no doubt in calling the grooming gangs issue a far-right moral panic. “Gang” sexual activity is rare, full stop. The focus on it is political, to bolster anti-immigrant sentiment. Even if the people involved aren’t migrants and are just Brown, it helps their cause.
I also have no doubt that the foreseeable future belongs to the Right. They have successfully exploited the shit out of social media, where anyone can make ludicrous claims and deal with the factual accuracy later… The rich have bankrolled conservative media pundits into stardom and made sure they’re handsomely compensated, effective and relentless propaganda machines.
Brett Cooper, for example, had a studio made up to look like a girl’s bedroom, so people would think she’s just a “normal,” pretty, conservative girl. Many would see her content and not realize she’s worked as an actor her whole life and the Daily Wire was her big break. The same is true of Amala Ekpunobi, who with over 2 million subscribers, just looks like an ordinary well-spoken brown woman. But she’s actually an employee of Prager University, a conservative non university that’s made hilarious biased propaganda for years now.
“They’re eating cats and dogs,” those Haitian immigrants – remember that one? What kind of retard believes that to be true? That’s right, no one. It isn’t about truth or reality, it’s about allegiance and loyalty. It’s about owning the libs and laughing as they scramble to “fact-check” you. It’s all memes, all fun and games, until someone gets hurt… Until the Capitol building is stormed by rioters seeking to “hang Mike Pence,” until the Club Q shooter goes and kills a bunch of queers in response to an “all ages” drag event. Until Roe vs Wade is overturned.
They Right don’t yet have academia because academia relies on facts and evidence, but they’ve been threatening and gearing up to defund academic departments that criticize the ruling order. It’s no coincidence that “queer theory,” “critical theory,” and “post-colonial theory” courses are the chief target: they teach young people the skills to be critical of how their societies function. I’d also bet that most people mocking these courses, unlike me, have never taken even one of them, and likely have litte familiarity with what is actually studied.
I do agree that much of academia appears as wishy washy bullshit, but if we care about academic freedom then it’s their bullshit to study. I find the use of breath in poetry boring and ridiculous, but it’s a thing that’s seriously studied, taught, and written about. No, I’m not kidding!
Calls to “decolonize the curriculum” always sounded annoying and pissed me off, but as long as we’re not getting rid of all classic courses and just making room for more diverse authors, that’s fine by me. The sloganeering provides an easy avenue for attack though, as most people won’t look past it to see what initiative or thought is behind the slogan.
The hyper sensitive liberals will continue to ruin things for everyone and make academia unpleasant. The economic Left will remain marginal until another figure like Corbyn or Sanders enters the spotlight, who people can organize around. The Right has clear key figures, whereas the Left really doesn’t…
I am about 98% sure that if he’s still alive, Nigel Farage will be the UK’s Prime Minister at the latest 8 years from now. Everything is going according to plan, as the red tory Labour party are becoming so unpopular that Reform will be looked to as the only viable alternative unless things seriously improve in that time.
This could have been worked into a great guest blog. But I’ll settle for it just being a great comment! 🙂
Indeed. And I would note that social media has also exploited the heck out of the right. For example, look at Musk showing his true colors, after pretending to be a member of the right and turning his social media platform into a vehicle for Trump support, he now gets Trump’s support for eliminating regulations on Tesla and foreign work visas to lower wages.
I disagree with this. No off topic dispute. Just let people know that there are different points of view among MAPs 🙂
Yes, it is possible. The risk of scandal of “cancelling” and accusations of racism, under the influence “woke” culture it can lead to leniency towards national and racial minorities who break the law.
George Floyd’s death was calculated to be a result of racism, not a coincidence, which led to mass riots. After this, the number of thefts increased. Or imagine if Rowling had objected to the casting of a black actress as the white Hermione, she would have been called racist even before she was called transphobic.
correction*
George Floyd’s death was wrongly perceived as a result of racism, but not a coincidence of circumstances…
In response to mass riots (BLM protests), “the number of thefts increased.”
> Theft is common in protests and riots, it’s not surprising. In moments of chaos surrounded by people, it’s the ideal time for the poor to steal. Deal with the poverty, low social mobility, and people won’t steal so much. You won’t see Rishi Sunak stealing – he has no reason to – he’s one of the richest people in the UK…
I’ve stolen before, and I did it when I was poor AF. You don’t typically find rich people stealing from shops…
On the race in Harry Potter. If Hermione were black from the start, so be it. It’s when popular franchises change the race of their characters – the classic case being the non-white little mermaid – that people get upset.
Fair enough, Harlan, if you disagree with my prescriptions on capitalism and the drive for profit. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. There are indeed a huge diversity of views among MAPs, though I should point out that despite what people may assume, I am not myself an MAP… Anyway, we all have different life experiences, education, etc., and live typically in pluralist societies. It’s not surprising there’d be disagreements.
Thanks for your comment, all the same.
For an interesting take on what happened in Rotherham, watch this interview with a victim. She says that even before she and her friends got sexually involved with Asian males, they already had sexual experience with white British men. She says that the Asian gangs took advantage of the fact that many young girls in lower class areas of the UK are sexually experienced and open to dating older men.
I’ve read the Alexis Jay Report, hoping to find out what percentage of the ~1400 Rotherham victims had been subjected to violence, threats, or rape, but unfortunately there are no such statistics in the report. We know for a fact that some of the victims were violently abused and raped, and their horrific accounts have been widely circulated, but we don’t know what percentage of them were.
The report repeatedly claims that children cannot consent to sex, and on page 136, it states that child prostitution is defined as child sexual exploitation. These are ideological rather than scientific claims. Studies like this one and this one have found that some minors voluntarily engage in prostitution, so it’s dishonest to claim that child prostitution is necessarily equivalent to exploitation. On page 37, the report laments that “some of the victims were never able to accept that they had been groomed and abused by one or more sexual predators.” This makes me suspect that there was an effort on the part of the authorities to brainwash/gaslight the children who didn’t feel victimized into believing that they were abused, and that not all of them fell for it.
Thank you for your comment, Vaslan. If you have any quotes you’d like to highlight from the report, I could produce an encyclopedia page based on them.
I was asked, but haven’t read any official reports myself. So, if you have any breakdown or summary of the report, or the report or various ‘victim’ testimonies, please post it and I can enshrine it in a Newgon page for future posterity.
The important part is to get the info out there…
Just wondered Tom, Is the guy who had the Website Consenting Humans still around. I know he discontinued that website but wondering if people have any archives from there because he did some good stuff……Like misconceptions of paedophilia?
Pat, you are referring to “Leonard Sisyphus Mann” a one-time highly regarded guest blogger and frequent commenter at Heretic TOC, who had earlier written as “Lensman”.
Sadly, LSM left the MAP scene five or six years ago after a change of heart. I have no idea what has become of him, so I will throw your question open to others here.
He was an intelligent contributor who researched his articles in depth. Towards the end, though, I felt he was becoming obsessively and unreasonably fixated on opposing radical Islamism. I have no problem with seeing the likes of al-Qaeda and Isis as a serious threat to secular progressive values. Where I parted company from him was his pessimistic view that Islam would never mellow, as most of Christianity has done in recent centuries, especially in the developed post-Enlightenment West.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190618052812/https://consentinghumans.wordpress.com/
>Where I parted company from him was his pessimistic view that Islam would never mellow, as most of Christianity has done in recent centuries, especially in the developed post-Enlightenment West.
Yet, all Islamists still revere their MAP Prophet & AAM Bride. While supposedly ‘enlightened’ Christians, not least hypocrite Anglos still causing more wars & deaths Worldwide than any so called ‘terrorists’, are more anti-MAP than ever since their own prophet was born to an AAM & TWO MAPS!! Anglo Christian Global terrorists and perverse sense-offenders or what-the-fuck!?
Quote pro-social Scot, George Galloway during the Anglo Christian ‘terrorists’ illegal invasion and criminal destruction of Islamic Afghanistan and Iraq, “George Bush is no kind of good Christian that I know of. He doesn’t follow the Prophet peace be upon him, only the profit and how to get a piece of it.”
The noble prophet Maphammad (pbuh) is a great example to MAPs. He chose a nine year old wife which must be pleasing to the MAP concept. Plus, she was AAM as correctly pointed out, but then many little girls appear to be AAM, and have secret desires for the attentions of adult men, even at remarkably young ages.
’Anglo Christian Global terrorists’, good concept. Crusader terrorist Bush launched that illegal invasion in the Middle East. I’m sure many children suffered.
Now this be interestin’, Tom..Not only do we return to that weird point at which Lensman’s reasoning ‘lens’ appeared to fog over (his departing statement regarding that “change of heart” was the weakest thing he ever wrote, given the superb standard he’d maintained), but also the point at which it is (loaded word alert) arbitrarily decreed what might be “on” or “off” topic!
Your choice here of “mellow” to describe the massive business of secularization has got me going for sure. I would ask this much for now then: can Islam, Islam being the core, scripturally-bound heart of the thing, ever secularize so long as there exist Jews? And can it fully secularize so long as the “moderate” Muslim world at large remains in the appallingly passive relational state it ‘enjoys’ vis-à-vis the active endeavours of its, shall we say, more vividly rooted members?
>arbitrarily decreed what might be “on” or “off” topic
The blurred boundaries between what falls in scope and what does not are tricky for many types of moderated or chaired discussion, including in courtrooms, where the decisions are called “rulings” and are made by actual judges.
Formal legal systems try to maintain consistency of rulings from one court to another by referring to written precedents and rule books (legal codes). Mere blogs lack the resources for such a formal exercise, and neither do they have a court of appeal. So, some decisions are bound to be inconsistent and perhaps unfair.
I seem to remember that LSMs reason for rejecting the pro-MAP position was more to do with consumer capitalism. Shame he is not blogging (hope he is alive and healthy) because ‘they’ being the surer wealthy Globalists who reside in Think tanks and organisations like the Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, EU, WEF etc. Well they want to bring in Stakeholder Capitalism or a Great Reset, to Build Back Better as we heard every Western leader quote from a script. So maybe a different system could change his views, though many see parallels with Stakeholder Capitalism and Fascism.
Getting off topic here, Pat. No more of this, please. As a leading member of the Bilderberg Group, I am not going to have this site turned into a conspiracy theory playground. 🙂 Plenty of other sites for that.
Ok Tom it is your Website and I have to respect your decision as a free speech absolutist.
Elon Musk calls himself a free speech absolutist, but does he allow free speech to MAPs? I don’t think so, in fact he appears to be rabidly paedophobic.
My advice? Don’t trust those who claim to be free speech absolutists. What it usually means is absolute freedom for themselves, but not necessarily everyone else.
In my view, practical freedom of expression is maximised when some flexible and informal rules of debate are applied (i.e., restrictions on debate), notably that contributions should be courteous. Debate will not be well served if, for instance, some posters are so abusive as to deter others from joining the debate or staying in it. Being concise, coherent and on-topic are also desirable if readers are to get maximum benefit from the discussion. If people are deterred from reading because posts are allowed to become routinely incoherent, repetitious rants (believe me, if would happen if I let it), sensible, intelligent contributors would lose interest, and the quality of debate would suffer.
If that is true about Elon then he is not a free speech absolutist — First principle is allowing free speech for those that you despise. Not guilty regarding myself, I have always championed free speech, even for the ‘Hate Preachers’. I look at it like this….By handing over more and more powers to the state, regarding speech restrictions and various other totalitarian edicts, you are constructing a powerful metaphorical Tank that could end up in the hands of your enemy. Therefore, careful what you wish for.
> I have always championed free speech, even for the ‘Hate Preachers’.
Good for you, Pat. We don’t get many of those here, but I have published such comments as long as at least a minimally coherent opinion is expressed, rather than just abuse hurled.
What LSM actually claimed was that the standard of living we enjoy, and indeed have come to expect, could not possibly be sustained if “adult/child” sexual relations became permissible in some way. He attempted to tie this claim in to the incest taboo, in a way that was not at all satisfactory to this reader. I have the entire blog (courtesy of WaybackMachine) but inexplicably the final ‘renunciatory’ post itself does not appear for me there anymore. If anyone can find it, please don’t hesitate to post. Discussion is of the essence!
Yes I remember he was Lensman before that, I first come across him on a Sp!ked article by Frank Furedi discussing the PIE & NSPCC and what they allegedly had in common. him and I were attacked for talking positively about paedophilia and being attacked like that was a first for me and gave me an actual adrenaline rush. Regarding Islam, I think he was on the right side of history in that discussion. I also agree with the writer Mark Steyn in that diversity is where a Nation goes to die.
>Regarding Islam, I think he was on the right side of history in that discussion.
Irrational myopic ‘Lensman’ and US/UK fake media, overwhelmingly on the wrong side of History’s body-count including dead AAMs & MAPs, Islam are AMATEURS compared to industrialized War Mongering mass-murdering so called ‘Christians’ over 4-centuries ongoing on five continents where they don’t belong.
“It will be important for those competent in world history to carefully examine this body count. But even if we slash the numbers on the Christian side and add some to the Muslim side, the scale of violence committed by Christians throughout history is mind-numbing.”
https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2010-04/body-counts
May i ask Mr Pup what he believes his exact purpose is in linking to a sub-only article, whose overall content is obviously a whole lot more detailed, nuanced and exploratory than the convenient ‘cream.off the top’ he has so eagerly slapped down here?
From Gayle Rubin, to Kathryn Bond Stockton, queer theorists have been pretty based on intergen issues. I am fairly confident that if someone were to skim through myriad queer scholarship, you’d find lots of piecemeal quotes questioning the categories of childhood, adolescence, and adult.
There’s a book coming out soon that sounds like it’ll go into this:
Minor Troubles Racial Figurations of Youth Sexuality and Childhood’s Queerness, by prof. Erin J. Rand (expected Jan 2025).
This author’s interesting in that her public pages seem to proudly front her 2019 article, “PROTECTing the Figure of Innocence: Child Pornography Legislation and the Queerness of Childhood“.
Sounds edgy to me!!!
Then there’s Gabrielle Owen, A Queer History of Adolescence (2020). https://ugapress.org/book/9780820357461/a-queer-history-of-adolescence/
It seems there’s scholarship for pretty much everything! There’s even a recent, lengthy retrospective / analysis of the Netflix Cuties controversy.
Ho ho ho hope Santa brought some nice MAP friendly presents for everyone, and we were all on the Good List! 🙂
It leaves me to say, have an awesome New Year’s Eve celebration, whether just sat watching TV like me, or going on a hot restaurant date with a 9 year old! 🙂
Haha in all seriousness, all the best to everyone for 2025.
>all the best to everyone for 2025.
And to you, Zen!
Un-woke overlooked early out HOT Gay Saint Trans Pratt-Crisp nativity Xmas Day 1908.
Denis Charles Pratt was born in Sutton, Surrey, on 25 December 1908, the fourth child of solicitor Spencer Charles Pratt (1871–1931) and former governess Frances Marion Pratt (née Phillips; 1873–1960). His elder siblings were Katherine (1901–1976), Gerald (1902–1983) and Lewis (1907–1968). He changed his name to Quentin Crisp in his twenties after leaving home, and expressed a feminine appearance to a degree that shocked contemporary Londoners and provoked “gay-bashing” assaults. By his own account, Crisp was “effeminate” from an early age, resulting in his being teased while at Kingswood House School in Epsom, Surrey, from which he won a scholarship to Denstone College, Uttoxeter, Staffordshire, in 1922. After leaving school in 1926, Crisp studied journalism at King’s College London, but failed to graduate in 1928, going on to take art classes at the Regent Street Polytechnic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_Crisp
Crisp, whose long life spanned nine tenths of the 20th century, was and remains a very interesting character, not least because he was a fine writer. Many years ago, I read his autobiography, The Naked Civil Servant, published when he was about 60. My recollection is that he described himself as “homosexual” and “a queen”, saying he had had transvestite tendencies and always been effeminate, from childhood onwards.
But it was only after this, perhaps much later, that he decided he was transgender. He lived to the grand old age of 90, and in his book The Last Word, written in the last couple of years of his life, he said he had concluded he was transgender. Of course, this would have been somewhat too late for him to have been prescribed puberty blockers!
He wrote:
Interesting. I am pretty sure his book The Naked Civil Servant, mentions childhood sexuality a lot.
Like, a lot.
Don’t think Quentin would’ve given it a second thought, talking about fancying sailors and men in uniform as a child. Wouldn’t have been even remotely controversial, on the contrary probably affirming, for him to reminisce about…
Hi Tom, I’m an admirer of the work you’ve done on our cause and enjoy reading your blog occasionally, but as a resident yankee I have to chime in here and say I don’t think the woke was the primary factor at play in this election. I think the main thing was, and almost always is, the economy. The cost of living is just substantially higher now than it was four years ago. There was a study showing home ownership costs are up almost 30%. High interest rates make the prospect of buying a home simply impossible for millions of people. Consider that Biden was on track to lose the election well before Harris took his place on the ticket.
If we’re looking for an explanation for the failure of progressive politics in recent decades we don’t have to look much further than the difference between what’s generally on offer now and the genuine alternative that was possible when Labour was under Corbyn’s leadership, compelling you to become a member of the party for the first time in presumably many years.
As for the New York Times’ reporting on the trans issue: I would keep in mind that that newspaper’s writers were not even allowed to use the word “gay” until 1987. Their scapegoating of queer activists for the Democrats’ loss is not entirely surprising to me and comes across as another attempt by elites to shift the blame from their own unappealing politics. The New York Times is not a friend of sexual/gender minorities or the working class, and they certainly aren’t our friend.
The Trump ad you refer to–the only one on the trans issue that I’m aware has ever been demonstrably shown to move the needle in terms of public opinion–was one that argued Democrats are preoccupied with transgender people *to the exclusion of* bread and butter issues. That modern liberal elites are more concerned with social causes than basic economic concerns is not a particularly outrageous argument; in fact, it’s one I agree with. But the trans issue is only incidental to that.
I think there are real debates to be had within the trans movement over strategy, messaging, and occasionally overzealous activists, but they are primarily debates to be had within that community among people with skin in the game. I think a lot of the alleged concern over this issue from elsewhere comes off as bullying and mean spirited; there’s a reason JK Rowling is radioactive for so many young people now.
Concerning social issues and politics more broadly, I believe legacy media stokes these kinds of debates precisely because they are highly contentious and serve little purpose other than to divide people while sidestepping contemplation of the actual material and structural concerns that shape our world. I would guess that neither pro- or anti- “woke” people make up a majority. We have to remind ourselves sometimes that Twitter is not real life and the discussions that preoccupy so much of people’s energy online are not representative of the real world.
Strategically I would say it doesn’t make sense for the MAP movement to necessarily align ourselves with either “side” on many issues or any political force at the moment when things are in such disarray (beyond attempting to build links with the broader LGBTQ+ movement where possible, which I think is naturally advantageous). During the twentieth century social change came from the left (it’s possible it could come from other quarters, I’m just not aware of an historical proof of concept of that). But that was a left that had a track record of materially improving people’s lives in recent memory.
No such mainstream force like that exists now. Ultimately I think the trends are in place for our issue to eventually be adopted by the cultural left, but first the left needs to become more functional and that starts at actually improving people’s lives again.
It may also be that the best chances for the MAP movement lay outside the US and Western Europe for now. It’s not a given that Western cultural hegemony is set to last anyway. Some would say it’s already on the way out. We may do well to consider a future where the West isn’t the center of the universe, and reflect on what that means for us.
Many good points here, Matthew. Good to hear from you!
Thanks Tom, it’s good to see you writing here and to know you still rub shoulders with academics in support of our cause.
I hope my comment didn’t come off as too pessimistic. We have one major thing going for us now which is that the religious right is positively obsessed with our issue, which at least provides an opening for it to be discussed. A certain Voltaire quote comes to mind: “I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it.”
Political polarization alone carries the potential to do a lot of the work for us as many people naturally oppose social conservatives, but I think emerging from our place in the wilderness requires winning a few allies in the mainstream, or at least not needlessly making enemies. This doesn’t mean co-signing everything expressed by every trans activist, but I like to think we can at least oppose the trend towards their scapegoating.
There is also probably some overlap between transgenderism and pedophilia, with anecdotal and even I believe some empirical evidence suggesting such. There is at least overlap in the public imagination. At any rate, defending trans people against the charge they are out to groom children provides some opportunity to challenge the concept more broadly.
I see some opportunity to further our cause in the next few years but half the battle may relate not simply to what we say, but how we say it. We have to begin to dispel the idea we are selfish, uncaring, exploitative or otherwise inherently bad people. It’s something I try to remind myself because there’s a big temptation to just lash out in frustration online over our plight.
It is interesting that comments from the US tend to emphasise the threat from the religious Right, which is nothing like as strong here in the UK. Whether religion-based or not, there appears to be a very distinct Red state/Blue state divide over trans issues, with the GOP coming down hard against trans rights.
That is the perception at least. To many trans people these legislative crusades will be seen as analogous with previous resistance to gay rights. Back in the day, they used to “pray away the gay”. Now “conversion therapy” is more often associated with attempts to deal with trans kids by denying them “gender affirming care”.
Unfortunately, the visible strength of conservative politics, especially in the US, whether religious or just vaguely traditionalist, makes it very difficult for progressives, including the LGBT+ movement, to take an objective view on the merits or otherwise of “gender affirming care”.
It is also difficult in the UK, but less so. The governing Labour party is relatively progressive (i.e. relative to right-wing alternatives such as Reform and the Conservatives), but for better or worse it is not overburdened with ideological commitment. That is why Health Secretary, Wes Streeting, was able to give the cautious Cass Review due consideration rather than dismissing it out of hand – which a Kamala Harris administration would surely have done.
Matthew, you say political polarisation carries the potential “to do a lot of the work for us”. Perhaps so, but we should be careful not to put the cart before the horse. Sound, evidence-based policy should come first. Without it, bad decisions will be made, with poor health and welfare outcomes for trans kids. That said, I agree we certainly do not want to see them scapegoated.
I don’t think as MAPs that it’s necessary to concern ourselves with the particulars of what kind of medical intervention is advisable at what age so much as it’s in our interest to defend the salience of young peoples’ agency more broadly, and to make clear we oppose bigotry against people who are different.
Whether it’s explicitly religious or not it’s clear to me that a lot of opposition to transgender people comes from a very visceral, unthinking place. It’s a knee-jerk reaction to people who may seem strange or perverse, to people who are often dismissed as freaks. It’s the same kind of sentiment we often face as MAPs and it should be opposed.
I would go as far as to say that public discussion of trans youth is one of the most positive broader societal developments for MAPs in decades, because it carries the potential to finally discredit victimological, self-styled “radical feminists” who are so vocally opposed to both transgender people and pedophilia. For a very loud group of figures like Anna Slatz and Genevieve Gluck it’s not an exaggeration to say that these two issues are their primary concerns.
The common thread is that these people see both transgenderism and pedophilia as (primarily male) efforts to victimize vulnerable women and children by invading their spaces, subjecting them to abuse, etc. The role of such lesbian activists in divorcing the gay liberation movement from advocacy on behalf of pederasts is well known. For the first time in many years we now have the potential to replace this deeply conservative, sex-negative strain of feminism on the left with a more liberatory, traditional feminism that acknowledges human sexuality as an enriching and broadly positive part of life.
The fact that most young people now reject the “radfems” is a remarkably positive development, because it makes room for a return to the feminism of people like de Beauvoir, Kate Millett and others who drew parallels between the situations of children and women and acknowledged youth sexual agency.
Detractors slammed Andrea Long Chu’s recent article on transgender issues in New York Magazine as resembling the rhetoric of NAMBLA activists, and not without reason. The contemplation of young people’s capacity to choose their gender expression naturally opens the door to discussion of their sexual expression (I think most people at least implicitly understand this). That is the radical and positive potential of the current social debate over all this. We shouldn’t lose sight of that in contemplation of some of the details. I agree that evidence-based policy is vital. Let the scientific consensus form while we defend the broader concepts of youth agency and self-expression, because those concepts are at the heart of any movement with the potential to actually succeed and thus improve our own situation.
Matthew, you land a powerful double whammy here, leading with principles (agency, diversity) and following up with strategy (youth/trans/feminist freedom alliance).
This is so on-point and articulate that I wish I could agree with you. However, having read Andrea Long Chu’s piece for NYM a while ago, I should tell you I have reservations, to put it mildly, over her stance. She is not a biology denier, which is good; it is where she is running with her bio radicalism that bothers me.
But more of all this when my next blog comes out.
I’ll look forward to your next post! You’re very kind in your praise and it means a lot to me coming from someone like you.
I don’t entirely agree with Chu either and I think some of the skeptics of trans medical intervention occasionally raise objections that are worth considering. I would just caution that some of the seemingly good faith, empirical opposition to the trans movement very often is a cover for prejudice. Anti-trans bigots naturally look for ostensibly scientific and ethical arguments for their opposition. But you don’t have to look far to see that the people boosting many of these arguments are a familiar group of bigots: religious fanatics, social reactionaries, and conservative feminists who appear to absurdly dismiss transgenderism as some kind of anti-woman conspiracy.
These forces must be opposed. If the trans debate becomes polarized in the public imagination into pro- and anti- camps, as these things often do, I don’t want to be associated with the side full of bigots. I think it’s possible to appreciate some nuance on this issue while still maintaining support for a stigmatized minority, although overall I think our primary objective if we engage on this issue should be to oppose the reactionaries, who in any case hate us as much as they hate trans people.
Again I’m just happy that for once there is discussion about the thoughts and desires of young people, and that the whole conversation leaves room for respecting their will instead of merely “protecting” them from some imagined threat as is usually the case. This is a positive development.
As I told someone once, people care about children about a million times more than they care about pedophiles. If we can center young people, encourage respect for their agency and point out that the current approach to intergenerational contacts is actually harming them, I think we stand a good chance of beginning to roll back the moral panic. If we merely center ourselves I imagine we’ll only see the continuation of the current trend towards our patholigization and “anti-contact,” “harm reduction” strategies.
I respect that you’ve done a lot of thinking about this issue and that there may be salient objections to some of the more radical trans activists. I would just caution strongly against boosting or appearing to support the anti-trans camp. Many of these people will just go back to making things difficult for us after they are done with trans people. Let’s not strengthen the forces of hate and bigotry. Whatever our disagreements on certain matters, we need to protect a minority that’s under assault and thwart the conservatives’ social agenda.
Matthew, what I personally dislike about the trans movement, or some of its vocal activists, is the relentless ideological coloring along the lines of “anyone who doesn’t agree with us 100% is a conservative cis bigot.” And I can read hints of that even between your lines.
This attitude discredits the trans movement. As a pedophile, I certainly have sympathy for other sexual minorities and deviants of all kinds, yet I take the liberty of disagreeing with some of their positions. The truth is more important to me, and I would argue to most people, than any ideology.
Yeah, the truth can hurt, and it may not help the ideology promotion. For example, if it turns out it would be better for 60% of gender non-conforming kids long-term physical and mental health NOT to transition, we ought to focus on how to differentiate them from the other half.
Likewise, if it turns out that for 90% of children, even a loving sexual relationship with an adult would be harmful, I want to know – and should behave accordingly. I can either try to find a way to recognize the 10% of sex-positive children, or I can try to increase that number in one way or another by cultural changes, or I can simply resign and live with the knowledge that although those cute 10% of kids are out there, there is just no way to recognize them.
In the end, the truth will eventually surface and prevail. A movement based on half-truths and suppression of dissent cannot be successful in the long term.
I agree that it’s a shame how contentious and occasionally reductive this debate has become. I see it as a function of just how polarized online discourse is in 2024 and the presence of some truly far-right people on social media now.
I think we can say not every person who takes issue with some aspect of trans rhetoric is a bigot, but every bigot rails against trans rhetoric. It’s the animating cause du jour for the right. I just hesitate to encourage or strengthen people like that who are using this issue to build influence now.
Maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse but I tend to think about what my line would be if I ran some prominent pro-MAP org or something. I think in some of the most important ways the battles MAPs and trans people are fighting are the same battle.
As for youth-adult sex I think we can say confidently from the research that harm in cases of voluntary contact is sociogenic. People who contribute to the hysteria over this issue, while claiming to be motivated by children’s wellbeing, are actually harming children. I’d like to see this pointed out more often.
> Maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse but I tend to think about what my line would be if I ran some prominent pro-MAP org or something. I think in some of the most important ways the battles MAPs and trans people are fighting are the same battle.
Yes, it seems so, both are about giving children rights to make their own choices. Which obviously is very problematic and every parent, teacher or psychologist knows it.
The issue is complex, and simplifying it doesn’t help. Every lie, half-truth, or cancellation attempt by trans movement is just giving conservatives bullets to fire. And as Andrea Long Chu writes herself, even true liberals don’t like it.
Not recognizing disapproval on the “left” or “center” side of political spectrum is a mistake which I think leads to raising popularity of the “right”.
You raise good points. Weighing in on these issues publicly online tends to very easily get people’s defenses up. I think online platforms are basically designed to encourage this kind of conflict. I wonder if the best way to approach these things with trans influencers sometimes might be privately, which also allows us to build bridges with the community.
You’re right that the oversimplification isn’t always helpful to the trans movement itself long-term. The challenge may be to find ways to engage in good faith on some of these things while allowing the people we’re engaging with to save face.
I personally welcome our Chinese overlords! At least the trains will run on time and public infrastructure will actually get built! No more HS2 bullshit!
Nice to see your here, Matt. Glad you’re back after a hiatus.
Hi Prue! Nice to see you here, too. I’d be happy if we get some nice Chinese high speed rail. 😉 Beijing at least doesn’t seem intent on forcibly exporting its social values around the globe, whereas US soft power has been bad for pedophiles for decades now.
” The Iwerne Trust organised Christian holiday camps to instruct boys from public school in “muscular Christianity” and, with a conservative evangelical theology, to become future Christian leaders,”
Now we have the WEF Young Global Leaders. Another cult if you like.
[MODERATOR: Maybe, maybe not. But, Pat, this is off-topic for HTOC. Further posts of this nature (including replies to your own) may be deleted.]
“ “sheep shagger”, which everyone knows is something all rural Welsh males get up to, starting from about age five, as soon as they are strong enough to hold the sheep steady, with its back legs down their cute little wellies.”
We start earlier than that Tom….We just start with the Lambs!
🙂
Nov ’92 ersatz MAP Super-Rich DON spots HOT Lolis with Super-Rich MAP, genius Einst… er Epstein.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tape-shows-donald-trump-jeffrey-epstein-discussing-women-1992-party-n1030686
Ah if only the evangelicals were honest instead of extreme, dangerous, miserable hypocrites.
Just the other day, a few absolutely stunningly hot 12 year old girls chose to sit directly across from me so I could look at them, when all the other seats in the restaurant outside my line of sight were available…
And we are supposed to magically believe young teen girls have no concept or understanding of sex (when sex is truly the only thing they know best at that age), and men should be killed for desiring them?
What twilight zone episode is this??
>Just the other day, a few absolutely stunningly hot 12 year old girls chose to sit directly across from me so I could look at them, when all the other seats in the restaurant outside my line of sight were available…
Awesome mate
>And we are supposed to magically believe young teen girls have no concept or understanding of sex (when sex is truly the only thing they know best at that age), and men should be killed for desiring them? What twilight zone episode is this??
Spooky coincidence, CBS ‘The Twilight Zone’ first aired 2 Oct ’59, and NBC ‘Alien Love’ episode of ‘The Loretta Young Show’ aired 13 Dec ’59, penned by visionary Walter Tevis noting Nab’s eventual U.S. publication of ‘Lolita’ by G.P. Putnam’s Sons in August ’58, coincidentally when ‘Fireball’ MAP Jerry Lee Lewis, 22 & AAM Myra, 13, were alienated by UK/US fake media. Rockin ’58 visionary MAP Killa Lee Lewis, quote, “The press will start a scandal just to sell papers.”
‘Alien Love’ coincidentally cast Suella (Sue) Lyon as a pouting HOT Loli (well noted by watching Kubrick) verbally disciplined by a Hungarian refugee physics tutor then falsely accused of ya’ll-know-what.
YT Top Comment, “Victim fled from Totalitarian Communism to Totalitarian Puritanism.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUszrbZlZpA
Epstein is a cool E; so is Einstein. However Don as ‘ersatz MAP’ is an interesting theory. I know Donald really fancied his hot daughter Ivanka when she was quite young, certainly well within the boundaries of ‘minor’. However I agree with ‘ersatz’ because Donald is obviously socially right-wing and would never entertain recognition of real MAPs. It annoys me because I think Donald is engaging too deeply in realpolitik.
>Epstein is a cool E; so is Einstein.
Genius Einstein’s genius pal Schrodinger was a MAP (sans cat).
At the age of 39, Schrödinger tutored a 14-year-old girl named “Ithi” Junger. Walter Moore relates in his 1989 biography of Schrödinger that the lessons “included ‘a fair amount of petting and cuddling'” and Schrödinger “had fallen in love with his pupil”.[46] Moore further relates that “not long after her seventeenth birthday, they became lovers”. The relationship continued and in 1932 she became pregnant (then aged 20[47]). “Erwin tried to persuade her to have the child; he said he would take care of it, but he did not offer to divorce [wife] Anny… in desperation, Ithi arranged for an abortion.” Moore describes Schrödinger having a ‘Lolita complex’. He quotes from Schrödinger’s diary from the time where he said that “men of strong, genuine intellectuality are immensely attracted only by women who, forming the very beginning of the intellectual series, are as nearly connected to the preferred springs of nature as they”. A 2021 Irish Times article summarized this as a “predilection for teenage girls”, and denounced Schrödinger as “a serial abuser whose behaviour fitted the profile of a paedophile in the widely understood sense of that term”.[48] Schrödinger’s grandson and his mother were unhappy with the accusation made by Moore, and once the biography was published, their family broke off contact with him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Schr%C3%B6dinger
The talk page for Wikipedia has some discussion of the issues with the Irish Times piece, but no scholar has yet been bold enough to publish on this, and so the editors with authority over the page have refused to change it until that changes.
I have done the fact-check myself, and I strongly recommend reading it. My jaw dropped at how provably dishonest the Irish Times were; the very sources they cite contradict their claims / interpretation. It’s a huge scandal, considering the damage it’s done to Erwin’s reputation, leading the university he was associated with to take symbolic steps to remove all trace of him.
See https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Erwin_Schrodinger
I have just skimmed the latest Wikipedia for Erwin and see that it’s since been substantially revised since Feburary 2023, when that Newgon page was written. It now includes the fact that Ithi was 17 when they “became lovers,” and 20 when she became pregnant, although still implies in the vague previous sentences that their relationship was sexual before that point, something the biographer Moore did not explicitly state…
Now also includes the fact that Kate Nolan was 26 when she became pregnant, not underage as the page had previously implied. The terms “victim” and “survivor” have been removed, language which was never used by any of the two biographers when referring to any of Erwin’s former sex partners.
It’s not perfect and could be improved, but at least it’s more accurate to the facts and the moralizing language has been toned down… They still use the term “paedophile” which is ridiculous IMO given the broader context of his many sexual relationships with young women, only one of whom would be considered underage by current standards (Ithi – 17). The rest are unconsummated, were reciprocal, and occurred when Erwin was much younger. These relationships were stopped not because of an arbitrary age gap, but on account of Erwin’s class status / social standing as a poor atheist. Far from feeling “groomed,” the evidence states that these young ladies stayed friendly with Erwin their whole lives, long after circumstances forced them all to marry and be with other people.
I was surprised that the Times piece and Wiki (even still!) do not include any reference of how these young women felt, even though the biography by Moore clearly indicates they felt positively towards Erwin in later years, despite hardship (e.g. Ithi’s botched abortion). My fact-check article deliberately centers their voices and perspective where it’s included by the biographers…
And no, Erwin was not a “male chauvinist” as some random physicist states. That may be his view, but what evidence justifies it? None, so far as I can tell. The Irish Times are worse, deliberately cutting off a quote to alter its meaning, where the very next line gives a positive view of women that the Times omitted. Quote following line after the “Comparable in some way to the end of the spectrum” passage: “It has often been said that no woman really has genius. The fact is that they all have. Genius is nothing outstanding in them, it is the rule.” The Times would have known about this since they are directly quoting Moore’s 1989 biography – which anyone can check – but chose to cut the quote short to make Erwin look bad.
Fucking scumbags, these “journalists.” They know what they did…
Maybe I’ll contact physicist Lawrence Krauss and get him on the case. We need someone who’s got the balls to call a spade a spade. Someone who cares about evidence, who’s relevant and has a voice; he certainly fits the bill. He’s already been cancelled and lost his university position over complete bullshit, and what really amounts to the university admin being pissed off, perhaps terrified, that Krauss presented a less-than-monster perspective on Jeffrey Epstein. (I detailed this in a guest blog here.) Perhaps if I make the page clearer, it could help instigate pushback…
Nice work, Prue!
No surprise no minor-sex positives permitted in the centuries ongoing Anglo Victorian phoney Anglophone. The Anglo-‘Irish Times’ was established 1859 as a Protestant Irish Nationalist paper but within two decades under new owners, it became and remains a supporter of Unionism in Ireland, while still based in Catholic Eire’s capital Dublin -WTF?!
One wonders what they made of Anglo-Irish gay genius VICTIM Wilde destroyed by Anglo-Victorian rags, quote, “The 4th Estate is now the only estate, it has eaten up the other three, we are DOMINATED by journalism.”
Perhaps Prue can update their Wiki entry on Erwin and Oscar?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irish_Times
Don’t want to depress any Trans people out there, but president-elect Donald Trump has stated unequivocally that on day one of his assuming office he will “end the transgender madness.”
He says he will end what he calls “child sexual mutilation.”
Short clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CwxZDmCLIIg
In this clip, Trump says, “It will be the official policy of the United States that there will be only two genders”.
This is a bit like declaring that when he gets back into the Oval Office there will be only day and night, as though he could abolish the twilight of dawn and dusk by passing a law.
He would have had a better argument had he said there are only two sexes.
so he will end cutting of babys willies??
When ppl say that they have had enough of Woke Culture what does that mean, are they saying that they have had enough of Black Lives Matter are they saying they have had enough of the Homosexual and Trans community wanting to be recognised as human beings (MAPs especially in this day and age) or are they saying that they are sick of all the people who want a piece of the equality pie which is pretty much everyone?
LGBT is wrongly classified as part of Woke Culture, just like the MAPs. But unfortunately, many LGBT people have fallen for the bait of false equality. IMO Woke Culture (aka SJW, aka Cancel Culture) has nothing to do with equality and tolerance. This is the result of years of hyping political correctness, driven to hysteria, when people are canceled for any absurd reason that the wokists consider “offensive.”
George Floyd was a criminal who once attacked a pregnant woman, and his death was caused by drugs, not because the police officer was “racist”. I think the BLM pogroms were much worse than the “attack” on the Capitol on January 6. Just compare how long it lasted and what material damage it caused.
Harlan
I am sure you can correct me if I am wrong and I hope you don’t think I am being argumentative for the sake of it but I have seen the Floyd video myself (what possessed the officer to be so stupid and get filmed doing what he did god only knows) and it looks to me taking into account the amount of pressure that he was putting on his neck as though he murdered him right there and then?
George Floyd was a criminal who once attacked a pregnant woman, and his death was caused by drugs, not because the police officer was “racist”.
The video that went viral, to my memory, shows George dying on the street after being held down by his neck, famously hollering “I can’t breathe!” Even if he technically died of something else, or substances he had taken exacerbated the impact of the officer’s force, there was no need to hold George down on the floor by his neck like that.
Even if George Floyd had criminal convictions, that doesn’t mean a cop should be allowed to kill him or use potentially lethal force on him… Outside of war or self defence, no one should be killing anyone.
He posed no realistic threat. The force applied was disproportionate, unnecessary, and unjustified.
No one here would argue that because our dear blog host Tom O’Carroll has a criminal conviction, that police should be allowed to kill him? Say, if he appeared to be resisting arrest? Why should it be open season for George?
Cops shouldn’t be killing people, end of. The only justification is specific to America bc it has legal gun ownership: cops are defending themselves or others from an active shooter or attacker. George Floyd, whatever his history, was not an active shooter or attacker.
The reason people say racism played a role, is the assumption that the arresting officer saw George as more of a threat because he was black (and a man). Add to that the knowledge that George had a conviction, he had the stigma of criminality hanging over him as well.
Because of all these assumptions of dangerousness, based on things he cannot control (his blackness, maleness, and conviction history), many would argue that the police treated George – and treat people like him – with more force.
George didn’t have to die.
People with criminal convictions need to be able to move on with their lives; to have opportunities for social mobility, to find employment, housing, etc. I would avoid or be wary of someone who’d killed someone outside of self defence, who has anger issues or is prone to violence, or has unironically raped someone. But, I still think anyone should be able to turn over a new leaf and leave their dark past behind. This is easier the more boomerish and offline you are, but still possible and anyway should be possible on principle. If we don’t allow reintegration into society, or make it impossible for people to get jobs or housing, we condemn people to poverty and push them towards crime…
One event, or alleged event, doesn’t have to – indeed shouldn’t – define your life. I know it’s hard, it’s messy, and it’s easy to ruminate on one’s past if you can’t see a future. But we probably only have one life, and we have to think broadly about what society we want to live in.
I’d much rather live in a world where cops don’t kill people (totally reasonable in Europe and elsewhere), and where people with criminal convictions (generally) can live decent lives regardless. Most people aren’t murderers: they’re just poor, fucked in the head, or different in a way their society doesn’t tolerate…
>No one here would argue that… police should be allowed to kill [HTOC’s blog host] …if he appeared to be resisting arrest…
I have never resisted arrest, so I don’t know what would have happened if I had. The only time I ever resisted uniformed officers was in prison, when I was being kept in solitary confinement for a while and three of the “screws” were giving me a hard time for a laugh. When I finally decided I’d had enough and stamped on the foot of one of these idiots all three of them piled in and decked me.
But I didn’t get the George Floyd treatment. I was restrained on the ground, but not choked. The prison governor later questioned me about the incident. He found my account credible and rebuked his officers for having provoked me.
So, I had not suffered brutal treatment and in the end the matter was adjudicated sensibly.
At that moment, I was proud to be British. While there are many injustices in the law enforcement system here, including the contrived, political nature of my so-called crimes, I am confident that things are nowhere near as bad here as in the US.
Tom’s arrest was politically motivated.
I do not approve of the practice of American police officers to shoot people on the slightest suspicion that they are armed. There are many cases where the victims were innocent.
But Floyd would have been fine, they would have just checked him and let him go. There is no racism in that. If I’m not mistaken, Floyd wasn’t supposed to take drugs for medical reasons, but he did, which was one of the reasons for his death. The policeman didn’t mean to kill him, it was a coincidence during the execution of their police detention of the alleged criminal resisting arrest.
Intentionally racist or not I think its fair to say that the officer who was holding him to the floor did not need to put his knee on his neck which blatantly chocked his wind pipe, yes if Floyd was resisting arrest then he had a right to restrain him but he could had put his knees on his back and held his head to the floor which would have allowed him to breathe, I am sure if he was on drugs then they might have killed him at some point but it looks to me more like the knee strangulation was the real killer in that situation
>president-elect Donald Trump has stated unequivocally that on day one of his assuming office he will “end the transgender madness.”
In Nov 2016 Don LIED that from Day-1 he would build a “boootiful 20ft wall” not begun by Nov 2020 last-day dun Don who plum forgot that bright Mexicans have 21ft LADDERS – DOH!
Dung Don’s further insults included naming Jan 6 a ‘Day of Love’, dumping on U.S. dead cops and mass injured VICTIMS!!
Tho, gun-VICTIM-survivor GOD’S DON did say Rich MAP Epstein was, “A fun guy who liked the ‘younger ladies’, and if HOT Ivanka, 13, wasn’t my own daughter I’d be dating her myself.”
Anyone have any thoughts on the “incel to Trans pipeline?”
Not trying to be disparaging, genuinely interested in people’s thoughts…
What is at the root of the need for sexual gratification? Does the Male Member command our attention and demand stimulation? Do the organs of speech demand dirty words? And do the thoughts whizz and bang with delight at the thought of a bang?
If someone indulges me on this with a serious intellectual answer, it will be a stimulating read, I’m sure.
Testosterone.
That’s it. It’s all you need to know.
But you want an intellectual answer, so I’ll give mine a fancy wrapping. To paraphrase Keats:
“Sex is testosterone, testosterone sex — that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.”
Well, maybe not quite all. Testosterone does it for males. It is also the main driver of female libido, albeit in smaller amounts. Oestrogen and progesterone, which fluctuate throughout the menstrual cycle, play a lesser role in female desire and arousal.
Ok, thank you for your response.
I agree testosterone is important. However I think self-control is important as well, especially in public situations, when we don’t want to become visibly aroused.
What happens between a man, his right hand and YouTube clips of Baby Ballroom (remember that amazing ITV dance show?!) is his own private business.
>What happens between a man, his right hand and YouTube clips of Baby Ballroom (remember that amazing ITV dance show?!) is his own private business.
What happens between consenting ambiSeXtrous AAMs & MAPs is their own business!!
>Oestrogen and progesterone, which fluctuate throughout the menstrual cycle, play a lesser role in female desire and arousal;
Surely, pre-natal/pre-menstrual/pre-pubertal HOT Lolis & HOT Laddies are all driven by the same inbuilt basic instinct – luvly LUST.
And what makes a HOT Dog/Bitch PUP first HUMP is often in the absence of other creatures but by using/abusing inanimate objects.
E.G. SeXy ’70s Bold MAP’s HOT Loli, 10, fresh from school, “This is my favorite pencil with ribbed edges which I rotate and squeeze in my HOT crotch during BORING Maths. Have ya got any new LOLITA mags or vids from FREE-LOVE HOLLAND with mens’ BIG Dicks inside giggling willing tight little-girls?”
Apropos the topic of transness, per the main blog subject, I’ve heard Trans women say that taking oestrogen and lowering their testosterone kills and warps their sex drive. They start to become less sexually visually oriented, which psychologists describe males as being far more than women: certainly a trend I’ve noticed! The one-way male to female dynamic of OnlyFans seems to be a paradigmatic example…
Women like visual stimulation, of course, but it seems less of an overriding drive or need above other considerations like one’s status in relation to others, jobs, money, etc., compared to men who seem to throw everything else out if the woman is attractive (and perhaps young) enough. The stereotype of the older man who, now having achieved a secure career and looked after himself his whole life, leaves his peer aged partner for a much younger woman. Sad, but I know of one such case irl. I know it does happen, despite the performative online outrage over “age-gap” relationships…
Back to Transness: I don’t know if oestrogen “kills” the sex drive; I’ve met some insanely horny Trans women whose company I’ve very much enjoyed :p … At the same time, it may be that Trans women who’ve become more like cis women in terms of their hormones and sex drive, will be more prone to eroticizing relationships as opposed to visual stimuli taking precedent. In my experience, Trans women are often seeking validation and affirmation and love it when those who are the object of their attraction treat them as women. The relationship of being affirmed, of being seen or regarded as a woman by a cis man or woman, becomes intensely attractive / erotic. The attraction is less about the visual / physical alone (what men tend to care about), and more about the relation or social significance between two people (i.e. more typical of females).
Some thoughts…
Hormones and the sex drive is definitely a big driver of human behavior. I guess that’s why it has “drive” in it! :p
As usual, Prue has come up with interesting observations, not least as regards transwomen’s experience. The thoughts expressed here closely reflect the “ContraPoints” YouTube video to which Prue gave a link recently. I highly recommend this vid, by transwoman Natalie Wynn. The link is well worth giving again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6czRFLs5JQo
>Hormones and the sex drive is definitely a big driver of human behavior. I guess that’s why it has “drive” in it!
I remember some fascinating conversations with the pleasingly MAP-friendly sociologist Ken Plummer many years ago. Although there was common ground between us, his social-fundamentalist insistence that sex is not a biological drive always struck me as amusingly eccentric. His grounding theory was symbolic interactionism, as developed through Gagnon and Simon’s sexual scripts concept. Google’s AI overview neatly summarises the main point:
Put like this, the theory makes somewhat more sense to me than when I heard it from Ken. I have no problem with sexual scripts theory as it concerns the expression of sexuality; and the idea that sexuality is more than just a simple biological drive makes sense. But without any drive (i.e. motivation), sex wouldn’t happen at all. In that case, we literally couldn’t be arsed. Or cocked.
My mentally disabled daughter had never seen any movie and had never read a book that could teach her the “sexual script”. Yet, going through puberty, she is horny as hell. Not worrying about cultural norms, she would fuck every man at her proximity if being allowed. Speaking to her teachers, this is a completely usual and expected behavior for kids who don’t care about our societal norms. I doubt Gagnon and Simon got this one right :).
>Not worrying about cultural norms, she would fuck every man at her proximity if being allowed.
Well, life is full of surprises. I hadn’t expected a story like this to be the first thing I’d hear in 2025, but it is none the less welcome for that! 🙂
>I doubt Gagnon and Simon got this one right :).
Indeed, I am sure they did not.
Not to be too solemn, but I hope you are managing to cope with what I imagine may be a very difficult parenting role (some aspects of it, at least).
Anyway, Happy New Year to you, your “horny” daughter, and to all who share the distinctive Heretic TOC experience!
🙂 Thank you Tom, glad I made you laugh.
It is challenging indeed, not just her horniness, For me personally, this specific
aspect of it would be much more challenging if she would behave like that before entering puberty, which, sadly, was not the case.
Happy new year!
Pro-sibling sex/marriage, Sussex ex-councillor Charles Amos, 24, who used to be a town councillor in East Grinstead, said people should be free to marry and have children with “whoever they want”.
“Individuals should be free to pursue their own good in their own way and that includes the freedom to marry and have children with whoever they want ” In 2020, Mr Amos was removed from the presidency of the King’s College London Conservative Association for making “insulting” comments on gender equality and racism. Mr Amos was originally a prominent figure in Ukip’s youth wing Young Independence. In 2015 he was featured in a Channel 4 documentary as a 15-year-old activist for the party.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24809791.ex-sussex-councillor-defends-sibling-marriage-gb-news/
whoever?? you sure… these people say this but dotn really mean it.
bLUESKY NOT GOING SO WELL. grass not greener. The matt gaetz thing showed up and yeh of course evryone is saying its child rape. (not). so i posted soem replies and get called a child rapist. hm, so i thought i shoudl reply in an intelligent way. So, i called him an animal fucker 🙂
“Let’s support adults in their choices, and also minors, but only once we can be sure they truly know what they are doing.” You say this in the midst of discussing when minors should receive medical intervention.
It seems to me that you say this in all seriousness, not sarcastically. And it feels like the argument is an echo of why AMS “should” be illegal. These poor, foolish children don’t ACTUALLY know what they feel, want, need. So we should not believe them when they tell us.
You go on to say, “This must be not only after proving themselves ‘persistent, consistent and insistent’ but also after being properly counselled on the downside of any choices as well as the benefits.” Honestly, I would be delighted to see AMS receive this kind of treatment, but ONLY because it would be an improvement on absolute prohibition.
But if a child had to undergo counseling and evaluation to get “permission” to have a sexual relationship with an adult, it would have the same inevitable problem that such gatekeeping has for trans healthcare:
The people in power, who would make the decision for patients, are bigots.
Trans people in the UK, where the NHS is required by law to provide medical transition services to adults who seek it (and get approved), are regularly told ‘no’ by their GPs. That’s illegal, but it doesn’t change the reality.
Building protections into society against a person’s (child’s) own misguided desires for their own body because they “might regret it later,” and then expecting those systems to be run in good faith, seems irrationally optimistic.
I am not at all saying that I have a firm belief that children who ask for surgery should get it. I don’t know the answer to that question. But I am highly skeptical of THIS answer.
I am sure they are not all bigots, LC; but it is also impossible to rule out excessive cautiousness by some or perhaps many of the gatekeepers, so your point has merit.
However, it is easier to say that any particular suggestion is flawed than to recommend a solution that would have no downside. To your credit, your final paragraph acknowledges this.
Bearing in mind that the wisdom of Solomon is in short supply, perhaps the best we can hope for is continuing debate, resolved in the end not through the glorious victory of one side in the culture wars and crushing defeat for the other, but in gradually working towards a well-informed consensus.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Tom.
I agree that any solution has downsides. But I would much rather the downsides of any system come from an over-abundance of trust that the minority in question know what they need, rather than an over-abundance of distrust. Whether protecting trans people from themselves, or protecting children from MAPs, I think that distrustful systems that remove agency and say “no, you may not” cause more harm than good, as opposed to systems that encourage people towards what those with power consider to be healthy and correct. Especially because they (and we) can be wrong.
Also, talk about effective. Fruits and vegetables have never been banned in the US (though barriers to access HAVE grown in SOME regions/populations), but that hasn’t stopped corporations from convincing most people to not bother eating them. Barriers are unnecessary when it comes to changing people’s behavior when you can instead overwhelm them with opportunity and marketing.
Again, you make good points, Lucius. I’ll refrain from further comment just now as the second part of my two-part blog should be forthcoming before very long.
Having sex cannot change life irrevocably. No matter how much the antis spread hypertrophied fears about “lifelong scars” and “destroyed psyche”, in most cases this is the result of sociogenic/iatrogenic intervention, which either create a false trauma or strengthen the real one.
Secondary sexual characteristics begin to develop from puberty, and until that moment there is no need for surgery and it is enough to wear clothes, hairstyle, and makeup in accordance with gender identity. That’s why my slightly conservative position favors social transition rather than medical transition.
I consider the suppression of emerging secondary sexual characteristics with puberty blockers to be barbaric, similar to forced circumcision and other religious and cultural prejudices. In my opinion, puberty blockers express society’s desire to suppress natural youth sexuality and an attempt to remake nature according to its puritanical ideas about “18 year old children”.
Obviously (I hope) I agree with you about “sexual harm.” And, when there is harm, where that actual mechanism resides. Interestingly I have my own parallel (and thoroughly unresearched/unscrutinized) theory regarding transness. (If children were never made aware of any behavior/personality/fashion expectations regarding their gender, would they ever feel compelled to transition, socially or otherwise?)
But you lose me at the parallel between puberty blockers and circumcision, at least infant circumcision. Children or 10 or 12 can (and do) request puberty blockers. No infant asks to have his foreskin removed. Children can stop taking puberty blockers. One cannot regrow a foreskin (not well, yet).
I knew a boy of ten, once, who told me that he never wanted to go through puberty. He dreaded developing body hair. He was and is not trans. He simply preferred his body the way it was (and I was certainly torn about how to respond to his confession), and knew what was coming for him. How wonderful, I think, it would have been to be able to ensure that puberty waited long enough for an adult who loved him to put his fears rest, or for him to even come to look forward to the changes, before he had to face them.
Man, how sad is that, a boy who doesn’t want to grow into a man. I believe him, by the way. That’s not the question… the question is, why?
The answer is obvious. Is it really a huge surprise or a big mystery, when the society he lives in constantly shows and tells him “man is bad, man is predator, woman is saint, man is criminal, man is creepy, man is evil, man is dirty”? Right now, he’s a child, he’s under the radar and still innocent in society’s eyes, not yet the target of ire stoked by the (sex negative) feminist government and supported by the (sex negative) feminist culture. What incentive does he have to grow up and do great things, where is the reward? Society has made it clear he is to be kicked around and abused, and to take it, or else he goes to prison for wanting to be free.
I would tell him the west is not the only place in the world, and that if you start now, it will be easier to pick a non-English speaking culture where a man has more freedom and is not so oppressed, sexually and otherwise. A place where the age of consent is lower and more suggested than strict, where prostitution is openly allowed, where “rape” is a crime that still requires evidence beyond an (anonymous) female’s words, as in physical wounds instead of consent.
You know, a real society. Not this oppressive hateful torture chamber that requires strict compliance with your abusers, or you get even more extreme punishments.
There is hope. Don’t cut your dick off kid!
I think yes. There is something in the brain that does not always coincide with the biological sex.
They will not take them for the rest of their lives. Hair can be removed by laser, breasts can be hidden or also removed surgically as well. But Penile removal is an extremely drastic act.
From F.B., “The question is not when did ‘Woke’/being-aware become abnormal. The question is why did being-aware/vigilant become abnormal in a fake media culture of industrialized ignorance aka A.I. Artificial Ignorance.”
>A single campaign ad on this theme shifted viewer opinion 2.7 percentage points towards him according to data gathered for Kamela Harris’s side.
Typo Tom still not fixed KamAla?
And, sexist TOC tags all MALE Welsh Wizards as ‘sheep-shaggers’ ZAPs going equipped from age 5 with wee-wellies. Yet wee Welsh Witches HOT Loli ZAMs Zoo Attracted Minors from age 4 with mini clamp-ons can cling beneath a HORNY ram for their own woolly fun furry fucking?
>Another was a Welsh so-called victim upset over being called a “sheep shagger”, which everyone knows is something all rural Welsh males get up to, starting from about age five, as soon as they are strong enough to hold the sheep steady, with its back legs down their cute little wellies.
M W W A – Make Woke Work Again.
>Yet wee Welsh Witches HOT Loli ZAMs Zoo Attracted Minors from age 4 with mini clamp-ons can cling beneath a HORNY ram for their own woolly fun furry fucking?
On reflection, I’m sure you’re right, Pup. As for Kamala, I thought I had fixed her, so to speak. I’ll look again if I can find a moment.
PHDD/PinHeadDancingDickhead I-D politics.
Fox, “I believe I’m a chicken, please put me in the hen-house.”
AAT/AdultAttractedTot, “I think I’m an adult, let me suck dick not tits.”
I think, like debates on MAPs, the images people have in their head play a big role. Anti-trans websites like Reduxx always find the worst image they can – usually a balding fat man, or someone photo’d mid sentence so their mouth looks odd. Pro Trans do the opposite, of course.
“It’s all about looks,” I saw one commenter say beneath a video on pedophilia by Dr. Craig Harper. Is it the same with Trans people?
It’s no wonder middle aged women seem to be Trans people’s most vicious and persistent critics: for most (i.e. straight) men, the main way they’ll be exposed to Trans people is through porn. Either that or softcore thirstraps on TikTok and Insta. For middle-aged women, it’s the opposite. Not only do men tend to have (and thus not mind) more “paraphilic” (non-normative) interests, but women, especially older women active in Feminist (now “Gender Critical”) spaces, tend to have higher disgust responses to male sexuality.
These kinds of women will be worried about their husband’s transitioning and leaving them, or their kids wanting to transition. They’re don’t care if hot trans women (or men) are out there; they’re just not interested. They’re not concerned with attracting a partner or being liked by as many people as possible; they’ve had (and usually have) a successful career, so now it’s time to lock in on a contentious social issue as a hobby horse to retire into. In their case, the images of Trans people they’ll typically be seeing are more likely framed negatively, painting males as sexual deviants. They won’t find it funny, sexy or amusing, and if they do they’ll keep it to themselves…
I guess MAPs, who often complain about crazy feminists, aren’t that far off from Trans now, who’ll also have reason to complain about (“gender critical”) feminists…
In short, making sissy hypno compilations is good praxis :p
[No more from me today. Prue, out! ~ ]
What a marvellous triple treat of trans takes from Prue! Definitely feels like Xmas with such rich food for thought laid out on the table! I’m not going to eat it all at once and burp out a quick response. I’m going to savour it all slowly and digest it well.
Just one brief question/request though. Do you have a link for the Craig Harper video? Are you saying this vid features a few less than glamorous MAPs? This would seem to be the implication of the quoted comment.
Oh no the Craig Harper thing is quite literal: a comment I saw under a video he’d put on YouTube which said “It’s all about looks,” and went on to argue that if children have sex contact with other children it’s considered no big deal, but when a man or woman does the same, the image people have is jarring. It’s akin to how people look at a couple where one is conventionally attractive and one not: we wonder why the hell they’re together. The underlying logic is that people date others similar to themselves.
The image of the pedophile is one of an ugly man, usually either old, fat or both. It’s stigmatizing of men and male sexual diversity in particular, seeing them as “weird” or “odd” rather than “cool,” “unique” or “interesting.” I am saying that w/ Trans people, there’s a similar thing going on.
Craig has a YT channel under his name, Dr. Craig A. Harper. I imagine it would be comments under his most popular video I was thinking of: https://youtu.be/N6LzElXvUMI?si=9yiY2h_GLekefuz3
This is typical mob behavior. Gays were also portrayed as disgusting makeuped and effeminate men. Now MAPs are portrayed as disgusting, infantile ugly fat freaky old men. Even if an older person chooses a younger partner legally, he is still called an old pervert, which is completely illogical, because choosing a more attractive partner cannot consider perverting, rather the opposite ) For a long time, in an atmosphere of censorship the crowd will not notice or will ignore in every possible way the more attractive images of famous personalities. And in the case of MAP, everything is complicated by the fact that this is considered criminal behavior due to the fact that the youth are socio-culturally sterilized. This is truly the last remaining taboo, which will be the hardest to rethink.
However, I think trans stereotypes are less offensive, because some people assume that some presidents’ wives might be transgender lol.
Haha, I hope I’ll provide some food for thought! A happy Xmas to you and all of HTOC!
I’ve just planned a Christmas dinner for the family; cooking it all myself! It’s gonna be exotic, ripping off restaurant food with a vegan twist! Not very traditional, but then I guess I never did care much for tradition! :p
Any Trans Man out there who can tell me why they’d want to become a man? From all the hatred and meanness about men out there, and the way they’re treated with an air of suspicion, I struggle to see why anyone would want to transition to become a man? No period, no pregnancy risk, being the penetrator rather than penetratee, being taken more seriously [bogus but I see why people believe it], being feared or avoided if you’re scary-looking, big or strong enough?
Are a lot of women upset by the sexual interest they receive online and in daily life, and wish to escape it via transition? Gender dysphoria alone may be the underlying psychological feeling, but when you seek to put into words the why’s, such social considerations must come into play?
The YT stars Aba n Preach made a funny point, reacting to a viral clip of a Trans Man crying about how lonely it is to be a man, now they’re finally viewed as one. To paraphrase: “I didn’t believe in this Transgender shit before, but now I’m thinking it’s real!” Lots of “One of us,” “One of us”! Now you’re part of the club brother! Welcome to being viewed as a potential rapist by people who watch way too many “True Crime” documentaries! Extreme gender dysphoria must be real if you wanna fuck up your life that much! XD
Looking at Amazon reviews for Debbie Hayton’s Transsexual Apostate book, this one stood out to me:
I found Hayton’s story and book to be a somewhat perplexing read for a number of reasons.
1. She believes sex to be immutable but continues to hold to the label transsexual. Surely, if biological sex is, as she claims, unchangeable and she has undergone gender reassignment surgery (GRS), then she is transgender.
2. Her repudiation of gender identity ideology stating that the modern transgender community sets trans people apart, assiging them a gender identity that labels and defines her and everyone else. And yet, while she sees this labelling as a problem, she then seeks to label herself and many within the trans community with a psychological pathology, autogynophillia. I do not understand why she is seemingly so keen to pathologise herself and others within the trans community.
[Prue reply: It’s plausible that AGP applies / fits well with the Trans experience of some like Debbie, and doesn’t accurately reflect the experience of others…]
3. She criticises much of the characterisation of the anti-trans and trans questioning movement and states they have been the victims of sustained and vile attacks for asking legitimate questions (Its true that she has the target of some extremely toxic and threatening harassment). Yet she glosses over the same level of harassment that trans people and their allies receive from the anti-trans movement. How many times have trans individuals and allies been called perverts and child abusers.[?]
[Prue: fair point! And the vitriol and opposition to Trans people will likely grow, now that political opponents have made headway, successfully associated them with MAPs (i.e. “groomers” / deviance), and coalesced around key figures (Jordan Peterson, Ben Shippy, and basically any conservative pundit funded by the Koch Brothers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family . The Right-wing grift gets you a reliable and sizable audience with big business backing behind the scenes: gotta get dat bag! Don’t wanna be no brokie lol!].
4. The evidence she uses is often selective, biased and far too anecdotal. Just because she doesn’t recognise something, in one particular case the villification felt by some transgender individuals, doesnt mean to say it isn’t real or true.
[Maybe. It again cuts to the different Trans or gender non conforming experiences out there. Debbie’s on one side and will have a very different experience to others. She’s happy she had children, in retrospect, but there’ll be people out there who are confident they’ll never want children and who wanted to be the opposite sex / gender since early childhood. And if someone can’t have children because of earlier medical intervention and decides they want them later on, then tough, you’ll have to adopt. That’s life. Your teacher’s lied to you when they said you could be anything you wanted: they left out that there’s consequences, barriers, and other people to consider!
If legal adults regret the consequences of their decisions, isn’t that their right? People can regret cosmetic procedures (Women sometimes regret boobjobs for example), medical intervention they chose, on an officially informed basis via doctors, or an intervention outside the purview of state sanctioned practice (DIY hormones). People might even feel positively at first but feel regret later on. Isn’t that just part of life?
If people are going to take steps to trasition, regardless of the procedures in place, shouldn’t we make a safe, legal pathway as accessible as possible? It seems the main contention is the timing of intervention, dare we say it, the children. “Won’t someone think of the children!”…]
Crown Icing on the Christmas cake?
1939, Royal AAM Princess Liz, 13 – Royal MAP Duke Phil, 18
“I was 13 years of age and he was 18 and a cadet just due to leave. He joined the Navy at the outbreak of war, and I only saw him very occasionally when he was on leave – I suppose about twice in three years.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3539062/Paparazzi-chases-shared-love-dancing-cruising-London-MG-sports-car-Touching-letter-handwritten-Queen-s-1947-reveals-Prince-Philip-fell-love.html
F.B. Bonus: AAM Tot (late starter).
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1093931740743822&set=a.1043885122415151
Very relevant: https://www.thecut.com/2015/12/when-liberals-attack-social-science.html
Michel Bailey, in his own words: https://web.archive.org/web/20120121112607/http://www.chron.org/tools/viewart.php?artid=1248
A summary of AGP with quotes from Blanchard: https://feministwiki.org/wiki/Autogynephilia
For balance, a video discussion and critique of AGP by the Left’s most popular Trans YouTuber: https://youtu.be/6czRFLs5JQo?si=faNcrQHYcPqTXhjW
A former philosophy PhD student before making mega bucks as a YouTube star, Contrapoints herself later got ‘canceled’ by her own people, all because she had Transsexual pornstar icon Buck Angel voice a short clip in a video. As old Vaush used to say so aptly, the Left loves losing. To me at least, canceling your biggest, most talented supporters over minor issues has never seemed like a winning strategy.
After returning to her alcoholic past, leaving Twitter and crying a lot on livestream, she eventually picked herself back up and made a video about cancel culture: https://youtu.be/OjMPJVmXxV8?si=8oU_azKxgzRABILD
Even today, it remains one of her most viewed videos…
Against minors-munching tabloid narrow monotype, the Major MAP broad list grows.:
Judeo-Christian Ménage à trois Holy MAP God & Holy MAP Joe with Holy AAM Mary.
Muslim Holy MAP Muhammad with polymath Holy AAM Aisha,
Not forgetting Major MAP Tom’s Major MAP Pop Monarch Jacko.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha
I’m liking You more and more HHP, well said.
Xmas Peace Special.
Some apocryphal accounts, such as the apocryphal Gospel of James 8:2, state that at the time of her betrothal to Joseph, Mary was 12–14 years old.
AAM Holy Virgin Mary, beardy MAPs Holy Joe & Ya’ll Mighty invisible God created ya’ll time Peacenik pro-social Holy Sweet Jeez in Bethlehem, Palestine – anti-social land of ongoing KID-KILLING BLOODY WARS!!
I thought it’s generally accepted that Mary was 14 at the time of the Annunciation – i.e. when she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
so why christians so against relations with teens???
Please don’t look for rational consistency among religious people; if they valued rational consistency, they wouldn’t be religious people for very long. Apologetics is intellectually dead, although you’ll still find the occasional pseudointellectual rationalizing desperately. Ordinary religious people are very much capable of being inconsistent and also… ya know, lying all the time?
Amen 🙂
Christians would still be having an AoC of 12, if the scientific Enlightenment hadn’t overridden their greater wisdom.
No. See my other comment today on this. It was not scientific rationalism’s fault, except perhaps to the extent that “rationalism” (including the “rational” self-interest of the wealthy) was misapplied beyond the field of science. Arguably, the rot started to set in with the Romantic movement’s distaste for rationalism. William Blake and others of his day were great at pointing to the inhumane downside of “rational” capitalism’s excesses (which gave us “dark Satanic mills”, including child labour in horrible conditions); but as with so many great reforming impulses, this one ultimately overshot its target, taking children from under-protection to an excess of it.
Actually, I’ll think you’ll find Christians preferred an AoC of 12, for most of Christian history, until Rousseau came along in the *Scientific* *Enlightenment*, with the ‘sacred innocence of the child’, and within a couple of generations, the AoC was 16.
>Rousseau came along in the *Scientific* *Enlightenment*, with the ‘sacred innocence of the child’, and within a couple of generations, the AoC was 16.
It’s a bit more complicated than that, Zen. If you read Rousseau’s Emile (on education), as I did over half a century ago, you will know that the innocence to which he referred was quite similar to that of his other famous theme, that of the Noble Savage. He meant that children, like the native adults of lands that knew nothing of “civilised” society, were innocent of the corruption (in government, the institutions of state, finance, etc.) it brings, notably in pre-revolutionary France in the 18th century. It is no accident that his thinking inspired the French Revolution.
What Rousseau advocated for children was a much better education than one with formal lessons in which their minds were stuffed with facts. He advocated giving kids the opportunity to think for themselves, offering space in which they could act as free agents. He did not want to overprotect children. That is oft-repeated fake news!
I would also point out that the scientific (no ironic quotes required: it was a golden age for real science) Enlightenment included a rational, humanistic approach to criminal law. Following the revolution in France, the spirit of this new thinking was adopted into the Napoleonic criminal code, which saw the ditching of all laws based on sexual restrictions. This included abolishing the age of consent in France.
Also, it’s obvious God the Father loves children, why are cherubs depicted as little boys constantly in Art? God the Father, the original MAP.
Hi Tom hope you are ok
Some advice please, I am still reading (The Trauma Myth so I haven’t got around to reading your book yet I plan to do so after I have read The Trauma Myth I am up to the pollitics of sexual abuse chapter) anyway I was wondering how you manage to remember all the information that you have read in order to present your research in a credible way, like I said I am still reading the above book but I know there is no guarantee that I will remember everything that has been said once I am finished so is there a way of remembering everything or do I have to read the same book over and over again in order for it to stay in my memory or what?
> was wondering how you manage to remember all the information that you have read
As with nearly everyone, Daniel, there are plenty of things I forget. But taking notes as you go along makes things much easier. You only need to write the most important things, with brief headings and page numbers, so it is easy to relocate what you need to remember.
That’s with a printed book. The internet makes things far easier because tools like Google and desktop search allow you to find the info you want at lightning speed, just by using a few key words or phrases. This info may be in Word files, PDFs, etc., stored on your own computer, or on web pages online.
Over the years, I have built up a big database of thousands of text files on my PC, from newspaper articles, periodicals, and academic journals to digital books. That is where I keep most of my memory, in my ROM (computer data storage), not in my head! There, and online in anything from Wikipedia and Newgon to the entire www. The trick when doing it is to have a rough idea of what you are looking for, which you tend to become pretty good at after enough practice.
So far in her book (the politics of sexual abuse chapter) I think seems to be an important part, she has mentioned that she was advised by another professional that she should not be studying this kind of subject due to the public not wanting her to address the facts but rather their own emotional feelings its like the public don’t even care about what the majority of “victims” truthfully feel and that they would rather forget about that and just just focus on what the wider society believes about the topic and forget about what “survivors” really think which to me is an insult to those people who have been the real victims of genuine cohesion.
>the public not wanting her to address the facts but rather their own emotional feelings
Exactly! Which makes it hard to make headway.
Yeah.
If I say that I like to drive a car, does that offend the traffic accidents victims ? No. Why then, if I say that I enjoyed sex with an adult, is it called offending of sexual abuse victims ?
If I say All Islamics are terrorists, then i will be called an Islamophobe and say that it is wrong to say so. And I absolutely agree. But if I say that not all pedophiles are abusers and rapists, and not all consider themselves victims, then a crowd of mad people will pounce on me. It doesn’t even occur to them that it’s the same thing.
The answer to why people have such an illogical reaction is that they see pedophiles only in their imagination, unlike all other things. And the media constantly feeds their imagination with horror stories about boogeymen.
>Some advice please, I am still reading (The Trauma Myth
More ‘appropriate’ now would be, “The VICTIM Myth”.
And post-Anglovile Victorian new ‘Love Generation Selfie Sext’ update guide , “The all-age JOY of SeX”.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=the+joy+of+sex
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=alex+comfort
Video I linked below, about the Pediverse and Mastodon w/ a focus on user “Rin,” is archived on Freespeechtube. May be of interest to some of you:
https://fstube.net/w/q5t8LznNmXCKxr3swxJneY
Way more for the Anglovile Sense Offenders Act.
UK 12 & 15 yr old brains developed enough to be CRIMINALLY charged for causing pain and death.
But sharing InterGen fun PLEASURE in Anglovile Lands of Lies below their Holy Sacred AOC is a fate WAY worse than death.
WTF would Woke WANKAS, Tabloid TWATS and COWARDLY cop-outs like Tatchell & Harperson say now?…
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=12+year+old+chrged+with+murder
do you know that there’s a process to get these medications in the UK and USA, medications with a 99% positive transition rate on those who take it and that lowers one’s libido or even changes their sexual orientation to opposite their current attraction. AGP is a pseudoscientific myth.
Funny that one trans woman which agrees won’t detransition because that would make her life worse.
on a more pragmatic note, this is the same breakup of the coalition we saw with when the LGBTQ’s threw us MAPs out. Divided we all fall to the lunacy promoted by Keir Starmer, TERFs that have always hate us, and deviant Nazis. We should be united and see eye-to-eye, but alas we will continue to bicker as they throw us all into the concentration camps.
>AGP is a pseudoscientific myth.
If that is true, how come plenty of trans women say it is real? Anne Lawrence and many others say their feelings are well matched with the research findings of Blanchard, Bailey and others.
Also, on what basis do you make your claim? Why should anyone take your view as authoritative unless you back it up with solid, well-sourced information?
I should just say that, regarding MAPs who identify as Trans: there seems to be a lot on the more down-low, semi public spaces – particularly Mastodon. Mastodon is made up of federated ‘instances’, with Yesmap having its own space. Yesmap doesn’t allow the posting or sexually suggestive artwork, but most other instances do. Because of the innate controversy surrounding them, the effort it must take to moderate and run an instance, and the occasional dramas and attempts to doxx users, these spaces tend to come and go. They’re like mini Twitters, and probably reflect a younger demographic than sites like Boychat.
With a younger demographic and online spaces which are very open and affirming of unorthodox identities – including Trans-age and Zoophiles – it’s not surprising that you’d see more Trans MAPs in these spaces.
I know it’s a sensitive subject though. I distinctly remember a post a year or so ago, of a MAP ‘coming out’ online, saying (roughly) “‘I’m the sassy bitch Trans MAP you’ve all been warned about.” Similar to what Allyn Walker found in their groundbreaking analysis of ‘MAPs’ relationship to queer-spectrum identities’ (2019), MAPs are well aware that if they identify as ‘gay’ or ‘Trans’, that their also identifying as / being an MAP would serve to drag the other identities down…
It puts them in a tough spot, because even if they tell others they’re ‘Trans’, or ‘gay but like younger guys / girls’, they’re still holding part of themselves back. Whilst I think it’s good to internalize the lesson that not everyone needs to know everything about you, it’s also true that feeling like you’re living a lie, or that you have to hide who you are for fear of reprisal, is stressful. There’s a drive towards, an ideal of, openness and ‘authenticity’ in Anglo culture. In a word, ‘individuality’. I don’t like feeling that my research interests are so taboo / controversial, but at least I can be open about who I find attractive / want to date and have sex with without lying. The double-burden of being Trans and MAP must be truly awful, in a society with increasingly hostile / negative attitudes to both, and I can understand why Trans MAPs would be hesitant to openly express their identity for fear of making Trans people ‘look bad’.
Needless to say, my guess is that there are a lot of Trans MAPs out there, or Trans people in denial of their MAPness.
Here’s an extremely recent, hour-long YT video about the MAP fediverse, if anyone’s interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxXdUQrqcSQ
Unfortunately, at the YouTube link I am already getting this message: “This video has been removed for violating YouTube’s Community Guidelines”.
Now there’s a surprise, lol
Wow that was quick. Video likely got mass reported by people on Mastodon who saw the video as an example of “hate speech,” justifiably so in that it’s not a discussion or debate of people’s posts, but a negative rendering accusing posters of being “groomers,” “predators,” and “criminals.” Classic essentialize to dehumanize…
The vid was very strange. Part of it has an interview with a “cult survivor,” by which they mean an ex-Pawoo user. Someone who fell into using said instance – famous for its controversial horny and porn posting – due to what they describe as their “loneliness,” “isolation,” and being “confused” about their own sexuality, being “so young.”
They chide the Pediverse for being “welcoming” and “accepting,” seeing this as cult behavior rather than… well… being nice and normal(?)…
Interestingly, the interviewee says they noticed a lot of Trans fetish posts. What they mean is posts which reappropriate the dominant discourse of “groomers” for positive ends. Captions will include statements like “be a good Trans groomer,” and so on. Other posts will be simpler image edits, posting an anime gal or Trans character in a bikini which has the MAP flag colors on. The people at Reduxx would have an aneurysm at seeing this, at least after they were done vigorously masturbating to such “disgusting,” “filthy” content…
A provocative, non-bikini example of this flag color usage, can be found on Yesmap’s public meme archive:
Edgy, for sure…
The vid has it in for “Rin” in particular, a longtime, dedicated and frequent poster who’s associated with Newgon/Yesmap. They post widely and do a lot of outreach; Rin was the account they found which led them to finding the Pediverse and making their hate video. Rin’s many perfectly fine if edgy posts are highlighted, and they’re called a “predator” and “criminal.”
We hear they’ve reported Rin’s account to the FBI “multiple times” and recieved no reply. How strange!? Maybe stop wasting law enforcement’s time!? Maybe stop lying when it’s clear you can’t find any evidence of “grooming” because there isn’t any!?
In short, it was all very weird, as the Antis so often are… Making a big deal out of nothing…
The vid was up for less than 24 hours… I wasn’t kidding when I said it was “extremely recent.” It’d only been up for 18 hours when I posted it…
Just don’t use YouTube. Use nothing by Alphabet, Microsoft, Amazon or tainted by Elon’s tentacles. We know they censor in one-sided ways while signal-boosting literal frauds like Tim Ballard for financial gain. You can never have any fair discussion of any topic that’s even remotely controversial.
Flipped script – Sense Offender Treatment Program/SOTP.
Y2K+2 Bold MAP pled ‘Guilty’ to Sexy ’70s pix showing consensual USI/Unlawful Sexual Intercourse with a co-naturist 12 yo HOT Loli pleading, “D’ya wanna fuck me?” 1-month before her 13th B’Day when with not one complaint the 20-year Statute of Limitations would have meant ‘no case to answer’.
(Sensible statute then trashed by Murdarkised fake media mind-raped Blue Lab Bliar & Co.)
SOTP facilitator/middle aged male half-trained traffic warden (with barrister son) boasted, “With victim-empathy/aversion therapy we show offenders how this program WORKS! Now, ‘Bold MAP’ what about these so called ‘naturist’ photos of you raping your victim, which fair cops found after months of no-complaints, proactive phone-taps and multiple homes-trashing dawn raids? ” (While criminally neglecting decades of permanent child bloody torture FGM rightly made pan-EU illegal in 1985 and soon all but eliminated in caring modern EU, but not one UK prosecution in 2-decades, with just a 1-minute medical to prove or disprove a case.)
“They show harmless horseplay not Rape, just USI accepted by the court.”
“Horseplay huh?! And how do you think that 30-something mother now feels?”
“Ask how she feels about her naturist Dad got 6-yrs for incest based on harmless naturist photos, then came out to be greeted by his family including his daughter by then a mother asking her Dad to babysit her own kids? And they all mourned at his funeral in 1997.”
“WHAT?! How do you know all this?!”
“Why DON’T you know all this, didn’t your child-caring bent cops tell you?”
Not working SOTP session suspended in UPROAR!
Anglovile Sense Offenders need ongoing treatment programs.
In summary, I like a broad range of things, but Paedophiles only like Chicken.
Chicken is good, but there’s other things.
I like to read books and listen to music. I like to go for walks, and get in my 15,000 steps.
Too much KFC makes you fat.
I hope Paedophiles understand my position here.
Zen, this sounds like dissociation. Which of your alters is speaking at this point?
Yeah, I have Cognitive Dissociation actually. It’s a real condition. Don’t judge me.
Not judging you, Zen. Just a bit anxious.
<In summary, I like a broad range of things, but Paedophiles only like Chicken.
Sadly assuming MAPs are a narrow fake media minors-munching mono-type. Oxford Don Zen misses the well known (non tabloid) fact. That many polymath MAPs from Leonardo to Britten to Elvis to Polanski etc, excelled in a broad range of activities from painting to sculpting to science to sailing to movies to music to karate.
Quote, Anglo elite ex-brutal boarding schoolboy uni-failed VICTIM survivor, high achiever Churchill, “Some chicken, some neck!”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/21/britten-boys-obsession-cannot-ignore
Great post, Pup!
Fair
Not only Britten, but also Tchaikovsky. This is not in Wikipedia in English, but it is in the Russian. Translation via Google translate.
Fascinating. Poor bastard if was in-fact forced to kill himself…
I think there’s a recent book about “queer” Tchaikovsky that goes into this. Will have to make a quick Newgon page on him…
Prue, I’d love to see a book published about famous paedophiles, it would sit proudly on a prominent spot of my bookshelf for everyone to see. It would also help many MAPs to accept who they are. With your research and writing abilities, wouldn’t you want to write it? 🙂 I think I’d be happy to spend some $ to financially support the publishing!
Well, thanks for the offer! Interestingly, I started making Newgon pages by reproducing a blog called “famous pedophiles.” You can find said people (and more!) here: https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/User:Prue
I did have a friend proposing putting the info from these pages together to publish as a small book. I don’t think I could or would just copy-paste; I’d absolutely want to do an intro and give my own take on the history of the P / MAP, both as a category and a movement. So it would be more intensive/time consuming, at least a bit.
I’m probably going to be focusing on other things, but I’ll certainly think about it and chat to that friend about it.
Thanks for the suggestion. In the meantime, I hope you and others can find some acceptance for “who they are” through my already published writings!
It’s the Paedophiles’ Council of Nicaea.
I can only guess at what you might mean in this context, Zen, but you must be psychic. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been on my mind lately and could play an improbable part in my next blog.
It’s your Come to Jesus moment Tom 🙂
The Council of Nicaea made Christianity worse than it already was, I reject this divisiveness just as any logical person would reject the prior provisional councils kicking out the gay MAPs but leaving the straight ones alone to enjoy marriage.
not only will I not kick out trans maps, but I won’t be responsible for nonsense like excluding gay maps yet again on the basis that God only condones heterosexual age gap relationships, and that women marrying youthful shotas is as god attended.
>not only will I not kick out trans maps
Good. Neither will HTOC.
Haha, seriously…? The Council of Nicaea defined Christianity. Arianism was defeated. St Nick bitch slapped Arius, St Nick with the halo, Arius with the anti-halo (check out the famous painting).
Obviously nothing wrong with gay or trans MAPs.
I may not be contributing incredibly intellectual input on here. But get this – just read someone post
going with someone just turned 18 is a bit no**y
. anything i put is a million times more intellectual than that!! its no diffretn from saying being gay is a bitf***oty
. it was posted on a video where a 25 year old called bonnie blue waspreying
on 18 year olds . the fight is much bigger than we realiseGlad you mentioned Bonnie Blue, Matt. This is a great story for all heretics here to catch up on if they haven’t heard already. Feisty Bonnie has been doing tours, offering marathon sessions of free sex to 18-year-old school leavers and uni students. Good for her! See here:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14094225/Bonnie-Blue-Schoolies-Fiji-Australia-ban-OnlyFans.html
but 18 and 25 is such an age gap ! shes such predator !! oh dear
Jesus I just read something about Geoffrey Prime, apparently a member of PIE?
It’s the Daily Mail so I’ll be a bit skeptical, but with the best intentions on my part: it sounds pretty damming and he doesn’t sound like the nicest man… The report describes violent acts which if true are basically every parent’s worst fears. This might’ve been one of the members who needed to be “vetted” out, and gives the rest of ya a bad name :/ Maybe this guy did actually need therapy?
Did you get asked about him during any Inquiry etc? Don’t think I’ve heard much about him?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2567991/The-child-sex-attacker-Soviet-spy-vile-group-legitimised-Harman-chums.html
>Jesus I just read something about Geoffrey Prime, apparently a member of PIE?
Not according to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. In November 1982, Geoffrey Dickens MP asked her in parliament about Prime’s membership of PIE. She responded that she understood such stories were false.
These were her exact words, as recorded in Hansard:
I agree with Mrs Thatcher – not something you will often find me saying! 🙂
According to the cynics you should never believe rumours until they are officially denied: then you can be sure they are true.
But not in this case, unless anyone wants to be cynical about my official denial as well.
Actually, because people could join in any name they liked, no one can be certain who was or was not a member. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II could have been a secret member for all I know, although Prince Andrew might have been more likely!
Not that the Daily Mail has any interest in the truth of the matter. For them it was just a good PIE-bashing story. Even better, it enabled them to take a pop at former Labour cabinet ministers Patricia Hewitt and Harriet Harman, over their supposedly pro-paedo policies.
Note that the Mail‘s report closes with a blatantly distorted conclusion, referring to
“the time in the Seventies when Harman & Co, like it or not, were legitimising the activities of evil men such as Geoffrey Prime”.
No, they were not! And neither were PIE! We were advocating for laws that would permit consensual relationships, not for ones that would allow ogres like Prime to wreak terror on young girls.
Rebecca Tuvel is based and Rachel Dolezol did nothing wrong. Transracialism is cute and funny and heckin’ valid! Brazilian Miku reee!
(I’m being serious: if you sincerely, persistently and consistently identify as another race, if you “pass” or take steps to adopt typical characteristics of said race, then I see no good arguments against social transition, or even cosmetic surgery along racial lines for legal adults. If I wouldn’t say no to adults getting lip filler, boob jobs, hair transplants, I can’t fairly say no to skin treatment, rhinoplasty or surgery to make your eyes look Asian.
Transracialism seems to affect a minority so small as to be negligible, but that’s surely partly because it’s dismissed and ridiculed and easy to socially shame as racist, or functioning via the adoption of racial stereotypes. There’s as of yet no influential Transracial lobby (to my knowledge), with prominent cases being confined to the wealthy and celebrities like Michael Jackson. I hope that might change in the future, and we can all be more relaxed and “real” about this issue, even if I’m doubtful that Transracialism will recieve any support outside of open-minded academics like Tuvel.
For some reason I can’t quite articulate / pin-down, bringing it up is often considered to be a slight on Transgender people, as if it’s somehow mocking or belittling them. I see how it can be used to take the piss, but so can Transgender people who are routinely mocked if they don’t pass; if your underlying philosophy of social construction and sincere, persistent and consistent still applies here as with Michael Jackson and others like him, then surely you’d support both forms of Transness regardless of their differences?
Completely random thoughts that I hope won’t be taken as offensive – I really don’t see what’s wrong with Transracialism on the face of it. To be a bit more provocative: we’re hardly going to get rid of racial stereotypes since they’re too useful. Many are positive and benefit those involved (e.g. black men are hung and good at sex; jews are good with money), so we might as well embrace the positive side even if by necessity, adopting one thing implies a perhaps unintended other (that other races aren’t as hung or are bad with money). As I keep saying, inequality is the norm. So is difference. We are not the same and that’s the interesting, beautiful part, even if it can be sad and depressing to realize there’s plenty of people who’s thinking and behavior are so radically different to yours that it renders you incompatible…
Was re-reading the main blog and started thinking about transrace randomly; just my thoughts, feel free to chime in and rip me to shreds!) :p
On transracialism I am “intensely relaxed”, as Mandy famously used to say back in the Blair years.
Over 80% of deepfake sex crime offenders in Korea are teens
According to the police on Oct. 25, of the 474 individuals arrested for deepfake sex crimes from January to October this year, 381 (80.3%) were teenagers. The teens told police they “just wanted to see if it worked” and “wanted to try making such video just once.” While the victimized women describe the experience as soul-destroying, the young offenders were often oblivious to the harm they caused and viewed deepfake pornography as “fun.”
“The teenagers lacked the awareness that creating and watching deepfake porn is a serious crime that causes harm to others,” said a police official.
An average of ten deepfake sex crime cases have been reported every day since the police launched an intensive crackdown on Aug. 28.”
>Over 80% of deepfake sex crime offenders in Korea are teens
Er, Anglo-defiled SOUTH Korea falsely created in their vile image by Anglo U$A/UptiteSickAssholes.
But for servile Ecuador, no decades ongoing fake sex-panics in most non-Anglo lands.
E.G. Sexy ’70s Anglo/U.S. celeb MAP Polanski still protected not persecuted in non-Anglo French EU.
Women are just hysterical because the deepfakes remove too much of the mystery of what sex with them would be like without women granting their approval to experience their greatest asset.
Hoes mad because their asking price is lowered and there’s nothing they can do about it, except to cry and demand big daddy government throw the men responsible in jail. And big daddy government is happy to oblige once again.
With cross-sex hormones already administred to children (probably girls) age 8, according to the grant of the unpublished Olsen-Kennedy study, the trans pipeline of social transitioning and blockers starts even earlier.
If we can trans kids, we can fuck them, goes the syllogism of some hopeful MAPs. What say the activists, who celebrate the freedom to trans and reject that of having sex, even within marriage, with girls?
For that matter, against the USSR (under Stalin), Afghanistan and Iraq, what has progressive activism brought us?
https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=637
The syllogism is bound to go the other way:
If:
A. As with animals, you can confine, torture, mutilate, and kill them, but not fuck them;
B. Fucking is forbidden because it can be claustrophobic, torturous, wrecking, and fatal;
Then:
The MAP hope: Normalize fucking, just like the other acts.
The rest insist: Ban confinement, torture, mutilation, and murder; just like fucking is banned.
There’s some really poignant thought here for sure. I’d see AL’s comments as evidence that sexual freedom, no matter how it’s framed, is bipartisan. You can come to conclusions supportive of MAPs, young people’s rights, age gap sex and sexual freedom in general, from the political Right or Left.
The main problem identified is liberalism, its drive for “equality” (similarity and parity) which is not only impossible and incoherent, but breeds thinking which is ultimately dangerous for relationships with meaningful power differences, age-gap relationships, and perhaps human freedom in general. The irony when you live under capitalism where people are classed into “rich” or “poor” and “power imbalances” are a fact of life; good luck convincing people to vote for you after telling them how “problematic” their perfectly consensual relationships are! I’ve even seen Libs who criticize prostitutes for patronizing the disabled(!); Thanks Libs, whilst you do that, I’ll be enjoying the growing wealth inequality that actually impacts most ordinary people!
We could also add that of the countries pointed to (the USSR, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Netherlands), the first three have governments dominated by masculine and I presume predominantly heterosexual “strong men,” and men who are not liberals by any stretch of the imagination. Stalin himself had a young teen lover as an adult, detailed in Newgon’s ‘Communism’ page.
The USSR and Netherlands are outliers, and the examples that more liberal and Left leaning MAPs/allies will look to.
I can only express my disappointment. I could go through and explain the faults in every single aspect. I could explain the issue with using individual members as spokespersons, so that you may write off the rest of us. I could discuss the issues with the Cass Review. It would be in vain, however. What I think I may perhaps be most hurt by here is that you have so thoroughly described us, my community, in such a deplorable way.
You describe “loony militants,” and then give an example of a belief the majority of transgender people have (i.e., that de-transitioning is a relatively infrequent issue.) You describe us as though we are hijacking language. You talk of deviant militants, echoing the language of bigots past who have looked at minority groups and shrieked of their militant deviancy.
This comes at a time when, over here in the states, the most fascistic candidate in America’s recent memory has come to the fore yet again. Even under the relatively progressive politics of Biden, trans people in the red states especially suffered a significant amount, with constant barrages of bills targeting us. I have no doubt things will be worse, and it is at this point you have come to elucidate a bizarre truth to us trans folk – that we somehow are what these hateful folk have described us as.
I recall, a handful of years back, before I had realized I was transgender, but after I had realized I loved children. I was so engrossed in a despair and shame that only the most dehumanizing of treatment could generate. Yet in our history, which you helped to create through groups like PIE, I found a great hope which presented me an alternative to despair and shame. How could I have forgotten that we ought hold no idols, no group nor man, no place nor time! I am sorely disappointed to learn that the person I am, rather than the one you might wish people like me ought be, has no place in your vision of the future, when the works of your past so defined my own vision?
I take what is good, and I leave the rest. I appreciate the contributions.
Sorry, gotta say it as I see it. And I do give reasons and evidence, which is more than you have so far, Liana.
Liana, I don’t think most people here would be among those who would happily condemn and dehumanize others just because of their deviation from the norm. I also don’t think they would tend towards any kind of labelling. I think most people here desire the freedom for each individual, and the chance to be judged for their own behaviors as a person, rather than unanimous condemnation simply because of their assigned label and membership in a marginalized minority group.
I firmly believe most trans people feel the same way. Unfortunately, there are enough vocal individuals in the trans community that don’t give you a good name. Personally, I have a problem with cancel culture and denial of science, which includes militant attacks on those scientists who explain things the way they understand them (e.g. Michael Bailey). I’m afraid you’ve overdone it, the political right has taken advantage of it, and as a result the public opinion has swung against progressive ideas in general.
Personally, I’m not happy about this development, at all. The trans community needs more sympathetic people in the public space, taking reasonable positions, not denying the science, willing to debate, and not pushing narratives that are extremely far from the reality. The same ultimately applies to MAPs. Sadly, we only have the worst of the worst of us in the public space nowadays.
Well to be fair, you can’t expect your idols to always agree with you or share the same perspective. I understand your disappointed, but so am I with some of my idols! If you step back and think about Tom as a person, you can see why he’d reach his present perspective: he’s been friendly with Mike Bailey, Ray Blanchard, Richard Green, and others on SexNet for years, all of whom have conducted sometimes pioneering and sensitive research on gender nonconformity.
They are very influential people, and have been open to considering pedophilia as anything other than an aberrant mental illness that if practiced irl, inevitably robs children of a good life. Richard Green even took to scholarship to explicitly argue that pedophilia is not a mental illness and should be delisted, using the same criteria he’d successfully used to argue that homosexuality wasn’t a mental illness in the 1970s! It’s understandable why Tom would want to be friendly with these people. Almost certainly, they’ve had an influence on the changes to the DSM which recently stated that pedophilia was a “sexual orientation,” before it was changed due to public backlash. It’s understandable that Tom would be interested in their thinking and influenced by it…
Researchers in empirical, positivist science do not typically consider themselves hateful, but merely want to test a hypothesis. Now their hypothesis may be or come to be seen as offensive in itself, and then you get into questions about ethical research and whether to publish upsetting or inconvenient findings. With Bailey, Blanchard, etc., their research gets used by bigots, over which they have no meaningful control. Blanchard himself has said he never expected his research to be of interest to anyone outside the niche scholarly journals it was published in. Indeed, many of these researchers were working from an earlier paradigm of “transsexualism,” and start with an underlying philosophy of sex as binary and unchangeable. Largely because of how their research has been seized upon by bigots or, by contrast, Trans advocates who sought to ruin their careers and get them fired for research they disapproved of, the influence and importance ascribed to these people has exploded.
Surely it is understandable that Tom, who knows / knew Mike Bailey and Richard Green – people who show every sign of being reasonable, evidence-based and decent people who’ve been willing to make supportive statements on MAPs -would be concerned to militant Trans activists trying to get them fired?
Isn’t it understandable to be upset when doctors and professors who’ve spent many years, sometimes a decade or more, studying and conducting research, get fired because others dislike their resesrch, conclusions, the language used, or how their research is used by others? Can you put yourself in their shoes, or indeed, Tom’s shoes?
I think he understands perfectly well the arguments for Trans kids receiving puberty blockers or HRT in adolescence – in fact he’s supportive of this! He even tried to get a scholarly article published detailing his support, but no journal would accept it given how controversial it was!
What Tom doesn’t think, is that there should be no to little safeguards in place, or that there aren’t meaningful risks or cases of regret or later detransition. He sees himself as standing up for the welfare and best interests of children and young people. Do you think he’s wrong about that? I think we’d all be interested to hear your perspective, especially as a Trans MAP. (Very cool btw, from my perspective: I hope you can change the world for the better for both MAPs and Trans people!)
You wrote: “I could go through and explain the faults in every single aspect. I could explain the issue with using individual members as spokespersons, so that you may write off the rest of us. I could discuss the issues with the Cass Review.”
>Could you please take some time and do that? I think we’d all really appreciate a contrary perspective that shows clearly, in as non-emotive language as possible, what’s wrong with the Cass review, or the research of Bailey and Co.
I completely understand the frustration that it must feel like the United States is regressing into a Fascist hellhole and using the issue of Trans people to do it. And largely, I agree with you! Now Elon Musk owns Twitter, being Trans on Twitter is probably not going to be pleasant? It must really suck that conservatives have united around both MAPs and Trans as the focal points of culture war – both identities relevant to you personally. I only hope you can live your best life, and maybe take steps to move to a civilized country (Germany, Netherlands, Portugal, Poland, Denmark and Finland, etc.)…
Couldn’t have put it better myself – or indeed half as well! 🙂 Liana Lial has been a guest blogger here before. I would be happy to consider another submission in which they would be free to expound their viewpoint at length, although it would be best written after the second part of this two-parter, which I hope to have out before the end of the year.
What do people think?
“We need a MAP version of Vaush deradicalizing women who have fallen down the alt-lib rabbit hole” – A comment on MU by the hardened, ardent Leftist Anonymous Lover (AL), who on this point is spot on. AL is discussing viral anti-male trends, most famously “kill all men” discourse, and apparently more recently women liking posts “advocating the use of Aqua Tofana to poison men.” In the wake of Trump’s election blowout, there’s been tons of discourse about the 4B Movement, a non-Western movement where women refuse sex and relationships w/ men as protest against male violence. The appropriation of this movement would wish to see Western women do the same as a protest against the fact that men largely voted for Trump and are apparently skewing more Right-wing in their politics. That’s hardly surprising to me with the how boring and toxic “the Left” – in reality woke liberals – can be: always policing behavior and language instead of de-radicalizing people with effective rhetoric and sound arguments.
AL writes:
I for one, am absolutely one of those AL describes as “on the Left [who] were either never comfortable with the progressive culture that evolved on tumblr/in the wake of gamergate,” and “have other priorities are of higher importance than pleasing insane harpies.”
Bringing this back to Trans issues, as I’ve said below somewhere: to move towards mass Trans acceptance, we need to get over the fear and hatred of men, rather than intensifying it. Your opponents who see ‘Trans women’ as men with wigs, will find it a lot harder to attack you and spread fear about you if they don’t see men or people with penises as a threat. Deflating the seriousness ascribed to ‘sex offending’ or sex crime, and injecting some nuance into talk of Trans people who violate age of consent laws / age apartheid, would also help your cause. (Though I’m aware that’s asking too much because it’s become heresy on Twitter and other websites)…
This requires sex positivity. In an atmosphere of “toxic feminism”, where any awkward flirting is considered harassment, this cannot happen. Over the years of increasing sex negativity and misandry, a group called “Incels” has formed, most of whom are young men, and I’m guessing many of them voted for Trump.
Honestly, I think these are just artifically generated culture wars, to keep masses busy and upset about stuff which does not matter. If you’d speak with married women, you’d be surprised how many of them tend to have conservative political leaning. My wife certainly has, without even realising it or thinking about it too much.
Culture wars going on on social media doesn’t reflect the reality of real life, where, “surprisingly”, most girls and woman still want to have a good, strong and loving man by their side. Yes, it might be quite difficult to find one nowadays, especially if you decide to do so only after your best years all long gone.
But I am old. So is my bubble :).
Yes! Make the Left Masculine Again (MLMA)
Jimmy Hendrix, David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, Mick Jagger… does anyone really think these rock stars who banged hot young girls way under the feminist “age of consent” were anything but liberals? Conservative cucks in Florida and the rest of the USA south were busy trying to get them arrested for obscenity.
What about Jack Kerouac and the beat generation? Derided as dirty liberals by the conservatives, On The Road is now listed as a “misogynist novel” because it features men being men when it comes to desiring hot young girls! https://www.elle.com/culture/books/a32033/10-mysoginistic-novels-every-woman-should-read/
Let’s not forget the most “misogynist novel” ever written, 50 Shades of Grey, is porn for females and a best-seller with females. This is why we can’t rely on women to uphold male sexual rights – the very concept of that violates the female sexual strategy, it gives females the same level of disgust as seeing a man cry.
Joseph Stalin was a Communist and MAP. Ernest Belfort Bax was a German Socialist and MAP. It’s more than a good bet that RFK is a MAP, too. It’s more than possible to be an anti-feminist liberal! Let’s remember this forgotten concept.
Hysterical women have moved in and destroyed the left with #metoo misandry, which has allowed the batshit psycho Qanon evangelical feminists to make the west absolutely miserable with their extreme right wing sexual hypocrisy. An excellent Percy foundation article illustrates this – https://wapercyfoundation.org/?p=1744
We must support MAP women. And just as important, we need left wing men to quit sex negative feminism and stand up for their natural right to bang hot young girls again.
Dearest Tom, I’ve been thinking, you’re a pretty cool guy, because adult-child sex is a fundamentally cool position. I know you have been campaigning for it most of your adult life. For me, it is something of a fundamental paradox as to whether I would like to engage in real, de facto adult-child sex. You see, I’m sure that children would enjoy it, and I’d certainly enjoy it, but I hesitate as to whether it is the right thing for society. Do you understand my hesitation? Please enlighten me.
>adult-child sex is a fundamentally cool position
I wish it were! But perhaps that depends on how you define “cool”.
New Bruce Rind paper has been made available online for free! Now on Library Genesis, the paper is titled Older Gay Men’s Sexual Experiences as Boys with Men: An Empirical and Narrative Analysis (2024), published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Click the linked text and you’ll find a PDF to download.
Alternatively, look Bruce up on Libgen yourself, or follow links posted on Boychat where there’s been some discussion and a link from the person who did the uploading. See https://boychat.org/messages/1634695.htm and https://boychat.org/messages/1634873.htm
A paper we all may have missed in the Archives of Sexual Behavior: The Elephant in the Room: Youth Sexuality (2023), by Marshall Burns, creator of the Consenting Juveniles project.
I can’t access it via Sci-hub so don’t currently have access to it. The first page can be read here and tells me more about Theo Sandfort that I didn’t already know: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/371572994_The_Elephant_in_the_Room_Youth_Sexuality
If anyone here is interested enough, you can always email Marshall for a copy at ListMail93@SOLresearch.org or mb@solresearch.org
I have just put it on Dropbox, here:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8ajese1uxdrdbsptlheiy/Youth-Sexuality-The-Elephant-in-the-Room-Burns-2023.pdf?rlkey=xu9vx706fbhs88o8510qcdy15&dl=0
I don’t think Marshall will mind.
Just a reminder there is a very good book covering the same in a lot of detail, with a long chapter discussing the Rind study, and more:
Ideological and Political Bias in Psychology
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-29148-7
>A single campaign ad on this theme shifted viewer opinion 2.7 percentage points towards him according to data gathered for Kamela Harris’s side.
Spelling dear MAP, spelling KamAla.
Surely, KamAla lost due to Black/Latino/Spanic material aspirations via Manic Materialist Trump, not marginal WOKEism?
MASA – Make America Sane Again.
>Surely, KamAla lost due to Black/Latino/Spanic material aspirations via Manic Materialist Trump
That too. It isn’t either/or. But that late advertising blitz was a big late nudge that arguably tipped an otherwise balanced position (as reflected in all the main polls from the start after Kamawatever – she’s toast now anyway! – followed Biden).
Gotta hand it to the Trump campaign, this was a slick line:
“Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you.”
I think your assumptions are not carried by the evidence. Trump won against other Republican candidates several times, and third parties didn’t capitalize on the Dem’s weakness. Neither did the “None of these candidates” category in places where they were on the ballot.
What this means is that Americans like Trump. They like the lying manly man who stomps all opposition (and incidentally violating all the important norms of democracy and human rights) because that is a very manly man thing to do. A lot of humans are by default authoritarian in nature and Trump is in some sense authentic – he doesn’t give a shit and nobody believes that he gives a shit. The rest was simply a self-reinforcing personality cult, like so many before him, except it happened in modern USA in the modern media culture to amplify its importance.
People like to be entertained, and people like populism. Kamala is boring. “PC”, “safe” politics is boring. Talk about tax rates and you’ll either lose people or scare them off. Rant about how the “fighting age” brown-men are coming to take over your country and institute Sharia law any day now – that’s entertainment! One gets people riled up and preys on their fear, the other either sends you to sleep or depresses you.
The answer I have, if I have one, is economic populism and deflating social issues. Even then, the political-Right’s media empire will throw everything it can at you until the mud sticks, so good luck to any prospective Left-wing candidate, and may God help you if you have a checkered past or political principles…
For now though, president-elect Trump has just released a new fragrance line – “fight, fight, fight!” – to commemorate his victory. Starting at 200 dollars, it’s “A fragrance your enemies can’t resist.” Buy now while stocks last!
Now that is entertaining! :p
But above all, she is stupid and incompetent, and unlike Trump, she doesn’t pretend. Look at what the left has done to the Netherlands in recent decades. The right in the US is no better, but no worse. Both are populists, both are panic-mongers. The Lefts shout about the destroying “democracy”, while imposing left censorship, the Rights shout about destroying “freespeech”, while imposing right censorship. The battle between Scylla and Charybdis.
Prue, I was going to agree with you about the entertainment part, until I realized I find it all incredibly dull and boring. We have an entire entertainment industry and it’s far better at it than anyone in politics on any side. What society should expect of politics is basic functionality, and they clearly gave that up.
The biggest problem is that all the media, including the internet, are controlled by the same ~5000 or so sociopaths, and they meet for dinner. We used to think that the internet could break this up in a positive way, but social media has high concentration through network effects – people are on platforms like Twitter because other peolple are on them, and the sociopaths can simply buy those platforms, rig the algorithms and literally control the modern censorship index.
Haha, I wish I could say the same, but I do get where you’re coming from. When you really step back and think Trump is the President of the United States, Nigel Farage is gunning for PM in the UK and will surely get there via Red Tory Labour’s unpopularity, it becomes a lot less funny! To actually live in an America shaped by the present incarnation of the Republican party is no laughing matter!
In the wake of the killing of a health insurance CEO last week, social media has seen overwhelming support for the shooter. It looks like when given a reason to speak up, most people support alternatives to the private Healthcare racket. Will Republicans jump on this surge of popularity and introduce policies that would cut into the profits of million and billionaire companies? Probably not, but we’ll see… (In that sense much is predictable and therefore dull/boring)…
Hope to see you share more of your thoughts on HTOC!
“Hope to see you share more of your thoughts on HTOC!”
Thank you for your kind words, but I’m not planning on it. For me, writing on the internet is a bad habit I wanted to get rid off many years ago. The sheer insanity of the status quo, more insane by every year, is what keeps me crawling back like an abused sex slave to a shitty master.
I will cut it off next year, for sure! 😀
And yes in politics, no one likes signs of weakness. There’s a reason “Beta male” and “Soy!” are insults: they attack one’s purported lack of masculinity.
You need to be and appear strong and tough or you’ve got no hope in hell in Western politics. Can’t speak for elsewhere, but I doubt anyone really likes the thought of their political leaders being afraid to speak their minds, cowering in fear or being indecisive.
1911, Demon Media NAILED in Genius to Genius letter.
Einstein’s letter to Curie when she was facing relentless attacks on her personal life, saying that she “tarnished the good name” of her late husband, Pierre Curie. She was denied a seat in the French Academy of Sciences in January 1911 for reasons that probably included gender and religion.
Prague, 23 November 1911
Highly esteemed Mrs. Curie:
Do not laugh at me for writing you without having anything sensible to say.
But I am so enraged by the base manner in which the public is presently daring to concern itself with you that I absolutely must give vent to this feeling. However, I am convinced that you consistently despise this rabble, whether it obsequiously lavishes respect on you or whether it attempts to satiate its lust for sensationalism!
I am impelled to tell you how much I have come to admire your intellect, your drive, and your honesty, and that I consider myself lucky to have made your personal acquaintance in Brussels. Anyone who does not number among these reptiles is certainly happy, now as before, that we have such personages among us as you, and Langevin too, real people with whom one feels privileged to be in contact. If the rabble continues to occupy itself with you, then simply don’t read that hogwash, but rather leave it to the reptile for whom it has been fabricated.
With most amicable regards to you, Langevin, and Perrin, yours very truly,
A. Einstein
P.S. I have determined the statistical law of motion of the diatomic molecule in Planck’s radiation field by means of a comical witticism, naturally under the constraint that the structure’s motion follows the laws of standard mechanics. My hope that this law is valid in reality is very small, though.
To Tom and others (I am especially thinking of Tom and Prue) – I really appreciate the safety and freedom of this forum as a place to discuss ideas, and I love the high quality of intellectual debate. I think I speak for many people, Tom, when I say thank you so much for making this possible, and for your tireless dedication to a cause that you believe in.
I am inspired and energised by such comments, ZT. I cannot think of another forum where there is so much courtesy and mutual respect between people with sometimes very different views. I try to set the tone, but it wouldn’t work without so many contributors getting into the spirit of things. Thank you for this latest, and for your many splendid posts.
Thanks, ZT. I appreciate your perspective even though it’s very different to mine as I’m not particularly religious or spiritual. I’m glad to know that I’ve contributed in some way to making you feel safe / comfortable to posting here, and perhaps maintaining a “high quality of intellectual debate.” 🙂
As far as blogs / personal websites go, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better, more insightful and thought-provoking comments section than here. When I discovered this site some years ago and read many past blog posts over a period of months, thinking through and checking over scholarship and info posted to the comments was certainly part of my own intellectual journey on the issues of age and sex.
Going from someone who had barely heard the voldemort-esc “P-word” some years ago, to now seemingly being unable to escape constant chatter about it on every news report, YT Channel, and so on: it’s a weird feeling being able to unpack and critically assess “the third rail of contemporary culture” (as Rachel Hope Cleves described it). It’s not something I ever set out to do, I was just curious to read what I saw people citing… I had and have very little personal stakes in these issues, barring the infantilization of women and increasing stigma against legal age-gap relationships – both of which I find upsetting and unfair…
Being educated on these topics probably leaves us all feeling like we’re in possession of some sort of “secret knowledge,” when in fact it’s just a matter of arguments or evidence not being widely known, being ignored, or hotly debated (e.g. Rind et al. 1998; Allyn Walker 2021).
What MAPs need more than ever is media representation. And blogs like this which make reasonable speech on these matters possible, are part of that. They might not be millions of subscribers YouTube channels, prime time TV shows, Hollywood blockbusters, but as the saying goes: “Rome wasn’t built in a day!”
Considering the multi-million backed media empires that fight against you every time there’s an easy story to be had with little chance of pushback, it’s remarkable that Tom has had the resilience to maintain a public space for resistance. From the outside looking in he’s certainly sacrificed a lot: been to prison twice, once on political grounds for “conspiracy to corrupt public morals,” and once for “indecent images” which he has vigorously contested to no avail. People he cares about have been villanized out of all proportion (e.g. Peter Righton), and false claims about the organization he chaired can circulate freely in media with little to no resistance.
At present, there cannot be another PIE. It would be pointless, dangerous, and only serve as sacrificial lamb to be witch-hunted off the face of the earth. What there can be, however, is a proliferation of discourses, a whole host of websites, videos, films, books and articles which pick away at the lies adopted by the dominant discourse.
There is real abuse: there are real nasty bastards and bitches out there – parents who beat or kill their own children, for example. Thankfully, they’re rare, as are most crimes involving violence. What is being punished is non-normative sexual behavior, regardless of the use of force. As the concept of “the child” has expanded to 17-year-olds, MAPs get a totally unfair and disproportionate shake as every Teilio alleged or convicted of an offense involving a “minor” is wrongly dubbed a “pedophile.” Discourse about “pedophiles” has exploded and intensified the past few years. It’s useful for political ends: to attack your opponents, to push through otherwise unpopular laws under the banner of “protecting children”; and easy, emotionally-laden clickbait content for media pundits, TikTokers, and YT streamers alike…
There are, however, counter discourses and spaces of resistance. B4U-ACT is leading the struggle in getting academia to be respectful of those they wish to study, and now “minor attracted person” (MAP) is becoming common parlance. Tons of liberal, educated women are now sympathetic to your recognition as a human being, rather than a dehuminazed “ticking time bomb predator.” That’s a good sign: the mass and visible participation of women is a pre-requisite for any successful political / social movement…
For Newgon, now named Yesmap.net, I have dedicated significant time to documenting the history and scholarship surrounding minor-attraction. I hope this can contribute in some way to the public education of people on these issues and, for MAPs specifically, a sense that they do actually have a history. They are not some freakish aberration, but represented throughout all human history. And whilst exclusive pedophiles like Tom might be rare and there are large, meaningful differences between 7-year-olds and 17-year-olds, the fact is that humans are generally attracted to youthful characteristics: no amount of social shaming has or will change that.
Tom has and continues to do a wonderful job despite controversy and disagreement, presenting his honest and earnest perspective as a learned reader and journalist. I have no doubt that to many MAPs he is nothing short of a hero…
>it’s remarkable that Tom has had the resilience to maintain a public space for resistance.
Writing is my therapy! Thanks for your kind words, Prue. Nice to be appreciated but some words are best kept for a chap’s funeral, when they’re no longer around to be embarrassed! 🙂 Your own contribution, of course, would be immense from anyone, and it’s all the more impressive coming from a non-MAP.
I subscribe your words and your appraisal to Tom resistance.
I agree that blogs, yt channels, websites, and so on are the way to go.
And yes, there has been an abuse of the P-word, going from pre-puberty to under-18. But rather than going back to where we were, we should take advantage of this opportunity to make the child sexuality debate wide open and construct a new foundation
And the CRAZIEST and revealing moment is how antis are afraid and do not allow the existence of the corresponding Wikipedia page.
They are not afraid of pages about the “Ku Klux Klan” and “Nazis”, there is even a page about “Hitler’s dog”, but they are absolutely afraid of a page about “Minor Attracted Persons” with a MAP flag (facepalm).
Really interesting… I wonder what they’re so afraid of when it comes to MAPs?
When “pedophile” and “MAP” have the same meaning according to common public, incorrect usage – someone attracted to “minors” – then what’s the issue in switching out one now widely incorrectly used term for a term that more accurately reflects public understanding?
The problem is, obviously, that people didn’t believe “pedophile” meant “someone primarily attracted to pre-pubesscent minors,” they thought it meant “child rapist” or even “child killer.” They get upset because the language of “MAP” doesn’t fit their preconceived ruling image, even if it’s more accurate to reality.
Do people secretly doubt their own, surely not performative, beliefs? Like the typically Right-wing panic mongers who love to claim that “any day now” we’re heading towards the slippery slope of “normalizing” the P (“LGBTP” etc); do many people privately believe the age taboo won’t hold?? Or is their fear just a reflection or projection of people’s anxiety?
Perhaps language does construct reality and that’s the real fear…
Who knows what these deluded idiots actually believe, I’m not convinced they actually think of anything at all, they just reply with automatic robot reactions dictated to them by the media/government so they fit in with the rest of the fascists. Pathetic lot, wastes of space.
On another note, one group that is empowered to control everything in the West is clearly women. We do know that women are MAPs just like men. Therefore, it would be prudent to support female MAP voices as their issues will actually get some sympathy, unlike men who treat each other like worthless cattle.
Front the women. Emphasize the women. That’s how you win.
It’s not just MAP women, intergenerational lesbianism, or women’s positive sexual experiences in youth: every female researcher out there who makes a sympathetic contribution about MAPs is doing invaluable work.
And yes, the Antis are scum. Because of their simple, repetitive and predictable nature, many online comments may be from bot accounts nowadays anyway. If “dead internet theory” is anything to go by…
Oh, and #allmenarekings :p