The world has been turned upside down and shaken around with such brutal force and dizzying pace in the few weeks since the start of this year it is hard to know how to start writing about any aspect of public life without the beginning being out of date by the time one has penned the end.
Not that this writer uses a pen, but the blogger who favours the longform essay does sometimes feel like a time-traveller from the quill pen age when all the “thinking” and change is being driven by the ultra shortform communicators of X and Truth Social, even though the only significant user of the latter is its owner, Donald Trump.
Trump, of course, since his return to office as US president on January 20, has been in the driving seat of this helter-skelter revolution, kicking ass everywhere from Greenland to Gaza while bizarrely licking one ass that truly needs a good kicking: Putin’s.
The “shock and awful” tactics have not been confined to Trump himself, though. His vice-president, J.D. Vance, is the latest to weigh in, with the infamous Munich speech in which he had the audacity and hypocrisy to take the EU to task for its alleged lack of freedom of speech and democracy – against a background in which his own president has bullied and threatened his critics in the media and attempted to overthrow democracy by force four years ago following his false claims of a stolen election, while more recently attempting to subvert international law by authorising economic sanctions against the international criminal court (ICC) – a court which could potentially see him indicted for complicity in war crimes by Israel.
What does all this mean for MAP radicals and for progressive politics?
Most obviously, and I hate to say I told you so (well, no, in all honesty I feel quite smug about it), we need to face the fact that Vance’s big speech must have been cheered to the rafters back home thanks to its core anti-woke message. In my last two blogs I gently pointed out (gently compared to Trump and his enforcers at least), that some aspects of woke ideology, not least the transgender activist’s insistence that “transwomen are women”, are demonstrably false and for that reason can only be imposed coercively (through “cancelling” etc.), with the inevitable result that most people are alienated.
Some skepticism was expressed here when I suggested that public discontent (not just among the MAGA masses but sensible moderates too) may have cost Kamala Harris the election. I gave some polling evidence in support of this claim, and recently we learned that Trump’s executive order excluding transwomen from female sport was probably the most popular thing he has ever done, gaining the approval of 67% of Democrat voters. Yes, that’s fully two thirds of Democrat voters, and a whopping 94% of Republican ones. We should of course support trans people against unfair discrimination in employment and other aspects of daily life, but the American electorate has overwhelmingly recognised that there are some fair and reasonable limits to the contexts in which transwomen can be considered women.

Fairness, alas, has been conspicuous by its absence from other aspects of the Trump revolution. It will help to focus on the manoeuvrings of Elon Musk, who now figures as the third great ass kicker of the new administration, ensconced in the White House as the boss of DOGE (best pronounced “dodgy”), which gives the richest man in the world the task of being as mean as possible, his brief allowing him to nix money going to everything from international aid to welfare payments for poor and vulnerable Americans. One might think this wide-ranging mission would keep him fully occupied, along with his multiple other jobs (including Tesla, xAI, SpaceX, social media X, and being dad to his eXotically named son X Æ A-Xii plus a soccer-team’s worth of siblings); but, no, back in the distant days of last month, before landing his dodgy DOGE gig, he somehow found time not just to pick a fight with the Labour government in the UK , but to conduct this campaign which such relentless ferocity that prime minister Keir Starmer and co were left reeling and soon bending to his will – with big implications for policy towards MAPs and child protection.
Having such a big family, Musk might be thought to know a thing or two about the latter, but outward appearances can be deceptive. He has certainly gone out of his way to look the part lately, carrying his cute little kids on his shoulders to a string of high-profile political events and letting them play around the president’s Oval Office desk – possibly to the Donald’s irritation! But is he just cynically using his kids as props for a string of photo opportunities?
That has to be the suspicion when we factor in the manically workaholic drive that took him to the top. Work-life balance? Ha! Just like his factory production, his reproduction can only have been fucking fast and efficient, with not a second wasted on idle canoodling and sweet nothings! As for quality time with the kids, no chance! Musk’s family-man image is a lie, as exposed last year when his now adult transgender daughter Vivian Jenna Wilson gave her first interview, saying he that he had been an absent father who was cruel to her as a child for being queer and feminine.
But putting his little kids in front of the cameras to soften his image and falsely make him appear to be a great dad is the least of Musk’s media sins. Remember that amazing cave rescue in Thailand a few years back? When one of the British divers who played a heroic part in getting young boys to safety was trashed by Musk as a “pedo guy”? The diver lost a libel case after the tycoon’s outrageously baseless remark was presented in court as just a joke, although it had apparently been made in revenge because the diver had rejected Musk’s proposed rescue method. After that, Musk knew he could get away with saying anything about anyone, an understanding he has exploited most spectacularly against key political figures in Britain – his animus latterly driven by the fact that the UK has played a prominent role in attempting to regulate his social media platform.
It all kicked off last year with the horrific slaughter in Southport of three little girls at a Taylor Swift dance class – quickly rumoured on Musk’s by-this-time unmoderated X and elsewhere to have been committed by an illegal immigrant Islamist. Unsurprisingly, the country was soon ablaze with anti-Muslim riots, focused dramatically at times on accommodation for asylum seekers. It now appears the perpetrator, Axel Rudakubana, was actually a home-grown madman from Cardiff, with Christian parents originally from Rwanda.
But the facts were never going to matter to Musk, who notoriously gave a Nazi salute at Trump’s inauguration and whose enthusiasm for Far Right extremism has been further signalled by his support for jailed street thug Tommy Robinson in the UK and the Alternative for Germany (AfD) party in Germany, which alarmingly doubled its vote share in Sunday’s election to become the country’s second biggest party. Ignoring the facts, Musk disparaged the prime minister as “two-tier Keir” for allegedly protecting the interests of immigrants in Britain over those of native-born citizens. He even stirred things up by saying civil war in Britain was “inevitable”.
That was bad enough, but early last month saw a relentless mass strike from his intercontinental ballistic media missiles, even before Trump’s inauguration. It was the anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant theme again, this time focusing on what he called “the Pakistani-ancestry grooming gangs” scandal in a number of towns some years ago. On January 3, Musk posted: “Starmer was responsible for the RAPE OF BRITAIN when he was head of Crown Prosecution for 6 years. Starmer must go and he must face charges for his complicity in the worst mass crime in the history of Britain.”
Wow! I am no Starmer fan, but this is one helluva pork pie. It was actually Starmer, as Director of Public Prosecutions, who launched a big crackdown on the “grooming gangs”, which certainly included some genuinely nasty men who exercised coercive control over girls, a theme I explored in a blog at the time. My piece was called “Street grooming: a nut to be cracked?” and I concluded that action was needed but that the state was using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It was a view I expanded on some years later when giving evidence to the IICSA. See paragraphs 64-71, under the subheading “Localised grooming”.
Musk’s totally baseless attack on Starmer wasn’t even the wildest or most vicious of his allegations. He also lashed out at Jess Phillips, the minister for “safeguarding and violence against women and girls” after she declined a request from Oldham Council for a government-led inquiry into “child sexual abuse” (CSA) in the town. He said she “deserves to be in prison” and called her a “rape genocide apologist”. She told the BBC that the lies spread by Musk (though she reportedly used the polite word “disinformation”) was putting her life in danger – which in my view was not an exaggeration when we remember that two MPs have been assassinated in recent years. Tempting as it is to rub our hands in glee at the likes of Starmer and Phillips getting a taste of their own frequent hate speech (towards MAPs), Musk’s irresponsible style is not the answer.

The immediate consequence of his outrageous “disinformation” was less dramatic than bloodshed but more ominous for the quality of our political life, and potentially for the future of democracy. There was panic at the heart of government. Their confidence already shaken after many months of bad press following a faltering start to their new administration six months earlier, the leading figures in Labour must have thought this sustained barrage of abuse from mighty Musk could truly cripple them, driving their traditional supporters in droves towards the populist Right.
So, when Musk said “Jump!”, it was inevitable they would soon answer, “How high?” He repeatedly called for a fresh national statutory inquiry into child sexual exploitation. The government resisted for a nanosecond but then announced a nationwide review of grooming gang evidence and five government-backed local inquiries. Home Secretary Yvette Cooper has announced a new £10m fund, split into two parts, to tackle grooming gangs and CSA. A three-month national audit led by Baroness Louise Casey would examine gang demographics, their victims, and the “cultural drivers” of the crimes. Secondly, a judge, Tom Crowther KC, would assist in the development of several local reviews.
But there have already been many such reviews in quite recent times, including the IICSA one mentioned earlier, costing a vast amount of money to address largely imaginary problems and achieving nothing. As Boris Johnson put it, in one of his rare truthful utterances, it was all money “spaffed up the wall”. Instead of being knocked off course by a malignant psychopath like Musk, Labour would do better to focus on its more thought-out policies, such as the long-overdue attempt to reduce Britain’s massively excessive prison population, through more rehabilitative alternatives. Even this government’s often misplaced impulse to “protect” youth, who actually need more freedom and decent job prospects, will be better served by its new bill to “target people who groom children into criminal activity, including county lines drug dealing or organised robbery” than by raking through the tired old stuff Musk is so exercised over.
The bottom line is that in this country and America the real “protection” we all need is against the likes of Musk and Trump, not by them. Their idea is not democracy as Abraham Lincoln famously proposed it – government of the people, by the people, for the people – but government of the powerful, by the powerful, for the powerful. Note all those billionaires at Trump’s inauguration, the new oligarchs, or plutocrats: Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, now worth the thick end of $1 trillion between them and licking their lips at the fat government contracts and sweetheart deals that are bound to be coming their way, along with others for Trump himself: real estate in Gaza, rare earths in Ukraine. Welcome to the new age of robber barons, the new Gilded Age!
BREAKING NEWS: Like I said, things are moving very fast. Late news coming in after writing the last paragraph above: Trump shares “what’s next?” for Gaza AI video on Truth Social. Also: Ukraine official says minerals deal agreed with US.
DAMP SQUIB, OR STRAW IN THE WIND?
BBC Radio 4’s In Dark Corners, series two, focused on a membership list of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), which was brought to the attention of journalist and broadcaster Alex Renton after being held by the police for some years, but later passed into private hands.
Renton had hoped his investigation of names and addresses on the list would expose previously undetected “scandal”, but from his point of view the trail disappointingly led nowhere, as he admitted in his final episode.
By that time, there had already been a discussion about the series in the comments here, in which I had said it looked like being a “damp squib”. I was angered to hear Renton unfairly traducing some fine old friends from the 1970s and 80s, but with many of them now dead this was little more than a private concern for me personally.
The only really interesting revelation, for me, was about PIE members I had not known about, who had kept in the background and maybe joined with assumed names. The addresses alone would not have meant much to those of us who were running PIE. We just used them as a mailing list for our publications.
It was only through the media that we discovered ambassador Sir Peter Hayman had been a member, or the spy Geoffrey Prime. And now, from Renton, I found that Viscount Mersey, a hereditary peer, had been another Establishment figure in our ranks, and there was an unnamed former chaplain to the royal household.
Other members, we were told, included authors, academics, musicians, plus distinguished nature film-maker and TV presenter, Christopher Mylne, who worked with David Attenborough among others. Many of the rest had contributed solidly to society, with over 30 teachers, plus social workers, youth workers, military officers, psychologists and doctors – all of whom Renton had given himself the difficult task of presenting as evil, disgusting, horrible people!
Another point of interest is that Renton ended up giving a plug for Heretic TOC, which he described as a busy forum, ominously adding it was a space where, “In some ways PIE, and its ideas, live on”. So, a space he would clearly love to silence – as would Julie Bindel: see below.
But this is not the only MAP-friendly online space, is it? There are quite a lot of others these days, including Mu, where you can find an excellent episode-by-episode summary and critique of In Dark Corners.

IT’S CATCHING: JULIE PLUGS HTOC TOO
The lovely Julie Bindel has given a surprise plug on her substack for Heretic TOC. Thanks, sweetheart!
In an item quite rightly slagging off so-called national hero Peter Tatchell (about whom I blogged), she has graciously given me full credit for my assistance and even given a link to HTOC.
She says that in 2015 she was asked by The Times to interview me. I accepted her offer to chat over a very nice nosh in a posh Mayfair brasserie, during which Tatchell’s name came up. She now reports that in a follow-up email I gave her some useful lowdown about his early work, which included public support for child-adult sexual relations that he later denied, along with treacherous denunciation of MAPs, including me. She said her readers might wish to read a news report she co-wrote for the Telegraph newspaper, “which should give you a clear a picture of Tatchell’s child abuse apologism”. Then she puzzlingly added, “I thought it was worth pondering, however, (which is why I am posting a copy of his email [TOC: mine, not Tatchell’s] to me as well as his blog), why it is that Tatchell gets away with espousing these views?”
Why she thinks adding my email and blog details add anything that will help her readers to “ponder” Tatchell’s dodging of cancellation is a mystery. Maybe she just wants to promote my work because she is a secret admirer? However, that theory takes a bit of a tumble when she refers to my “hideous blog”, adding, “The man is utterly grotesque, and I wish him the worst.”
Let’s say her fandom is a work in progress!
COULD HAVE SAVED MYSELF THE BOTHER
After putting out my marathon slog through the major concepts relating to sex and gender last time, I chanced upon a marvellous article that could have saved me much of the trouble. Titled “Do Sex and Gender Have Separate Identities?”, is an academic piece by Gonzalo R. Quintana and James G. Pfaus that says more or less what I did but in considerably greater detail and with much greater authority.
So, I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to explore the issues further. To facilitate this, I here give my own link to the full paper. The best bit is a brilliant diagram. See Figure 2.
yes im talking about 18 year olds as its kinda relevant as it shows how big the problem is with liking younger folk. i am a map? well, the psychiatric guy did threaten to break my legs, so i guess ! but sure i will be looking at legal but frowned upon teens in the clubs….
AI Child Porn Will Probably Save Real Children
Long article by Aella, a famous amateur sex researcher. I hope she will not get too much hate over it:
https://aella.substack.com/p/ai-child-porn-will-probably-save
Fragment is on a roll with yet another interview!
https://fstube.net/w/4Tz6VjekVaDVJcMib4Xqw7
[Around 35 mins, research not separating rape from willing cases is brought up, but it isn’t mentioned for ages that there is in-fact research on willing cases. You discuss Rind, which is great, but you could also name drop others easily without losing much time or traction.
Paul Okami, Allie Kilpatrick, Terry Leahy, and most recently the journal issue “Restoring Intergenerational Dynamics to Queer History,” especially Amanda Littauer’s incredible article on “Queer Girls and Intergen Lesbianism”. If you are unfamiliar, search Newgon and you will find summaries of them all. They’re glorious papers, and will fill your heart with joy similar to Hoko Horii’s blessings upon this world.
On Rind: good to bring up, but the Rind team’s study was a meta-analysis of over 50-studies. So it wasn’t just one study! By saying “one study,” you unintentionally downplay its significance! There’s a reason the Antis of the day were afraid!
Also, this interviewer is 19, and frankly knows fuck all about the subject. In an ideal world, he wouldn’t be debating with a whole lot of “I don’t fuckin’ know!” under his belt. Could’ve at least done a cursory glance of google scholar beforehand! Bro didn’t even know who Piaget was! Psychology and child development 101, and yet he speaks about “brain development” with authority!
1 hour in was best bit: talking about iatrogenic / social harm.]
Good stuff, Frag.
Still not quite where I want to be, but I definitely felt much stronger than in the previous interview, controlling the framing a lot more. I really liked my opening, not running from “did you move to Japan for the AoC” but instead saying basically that “if I’m right, then doing so would have been an act of seeking political refuge”. Most antis haven’t even considered the “what if I’m wrong” scenario, so I liked starting with that to seed some doubt.
I could’ve been more precise with my references to studies, for sure. But in these discussions where the other side has literally nothing, I’m not sure if it even matters. He called me out on “anecdotes” when his “evidence” was “I’ve talked to like 4 people about this and my girlfriend experienced CSA”.
But unless I have someone come and approach me wanting a discussion I think I’m done for the time being. My pre-prison legacy should hopefully be enough to tide the community over for 2 years. Hopefully this stuff stays in circulation without being forgotten. Hopefully it’ll give some others the knowledge and the courage to do similar stuff.
After the MrGirl interview the biggest compliment on his discord was “this guy is so smart and well read, so it makes me sad that he comes to different conclusions to me”. They still see me as the “wrong” one, but knowing that my beliefs can be backed up, and strongly, does make them question, even just a little.
Congratulations on the great media work you have been doing, Fragment, and good luck with the difficult time ahead of you. As a brave and talented guy, you look well placed to come through this test with flying colours!
Hi Tom I have a question for you, now I know that you would not recommend anyone holding up a banner with The Paedophile Information Exchange written on it (due to the potential hostile reaction that someone might face) today in protest against the mistreatment that many of us either or have claimed to have been subjected to in todays society but do you regret the existence of P.I.E or do you think it was something that needed to happen?
I don’t regret having a go in the 1970s, Daniel, but those were different times. For a few brief years, not just in the UK but also the US, France, Germany, etc., there were a number of national groups who felt there was a real opportunity to press for law reform. In the Netherlands they even succeeded in changing the law, although it changed back again under the rising influence of feminism.
…under the rising influence of carceral feminism. Feminism from the 70s to the mid 80s was not sexophobic.
Fair point on the timing. And I meant to say “victim feminism”.
Didn’t we have a similar chance round about 2018 when a number of people in the UK (including myself) and in the US had a go as well? but it didn’t seem to last very long for some reason, now I believe that activism re homosexuality was a thing in the 70s but other than that I can’t see why we didn’t last as long as P.I.E did maybe others here might have an idea as to where we went wrong on the 21st century?
Just bumped into a videowithsomeone calledsadie sink defending age gap between 18 and 30. Oh wow the bigotry in the coments ! Are people really this evil? Are these thesame people who wave rainbow flags and saying they are open minded and love is love ? It seems so. The will to live shrinks….
I recently saw a rainbow person call a man who wanted to meet boys from 18 to 22 a “pedophile”. According to this eminence, boys of that age are very manipulable and, if a man seeks them out, it will be because he wants to abuse them. That’s the way rainbow people are. I want nothing to do with them, zero contact.
Other than that, there seems to be a tendency in society lately to criminalize mature men who prefer to have contact with older young men. Perhaps it is not enough to treat pedophiles as witches or Jews and we need to broaden the targets. The stupidity and wickedness of people knows no bounds.
the irony people used to think that gays wanted to abuse. see 1950s PSA america! yeh but we cant say anything about that flag can we? if we cant like
overage
people then what hope is there? my friend and her girlfriend are rainbow people. my friend kinda understands where im coming from but her gf says 19 istoo young
(this is before i even spoke to the girl, as if im going to jump on them?) along with my nephew not letting me speak to girl he knew ascreepy
and the barmaid when i asked about new barmaid she saidshes 18 that would be weird
am i a map? i like girls from *& years to, um 30 ish.HTOC, MU, and others not on official Wiki current list?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pedophile_advocacy_organizations
I like to think HTOC is organised, but it is not an organisation. As regards Mu, you may have a valid point. But Mu is not mute. It can speak for itself..
Being on that Wikipedia list is not exactly a priority. Mu likes coverage that publicizes our cause, even when critical, but this list simply states basic facts in a condemnatory tone without providing links to the actual websites or talking points of the organizations in question. I see little benefit in having us listed there.
The current ongoing journal debate between Harper and Salter (their replies to one another are already available via Sage) could potentially inject a lot of information about present day MAP organizations into the WP:RS sphere. In other words, material Wikipedia considers to be “reliable” and quotable.
If that blows out into a full Rind-scale controversy via a snowball effect, I could see both the abovementioned article, and the other article on pedophile advocacy in general, being restructured, updated and possibly renamed, in which case there might be more of a case for being listed there.
The parents, concerned about their son’s prospects for future happiness and sexual function without a penis, took him to Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore in early 1967 to see John Money,[10] a psychologist who was developing a reputation as a pioneer in the field of sexual development and gender identity, based on his work with intersex patients.[11]
Money was a prominent proponent of the “theory of gender neutrality”—that gender identity developed primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood and that it could be changed with the appropriate behavioural interventions.[12] The Reimers had seen Money being interviewed in February 1967 on the Canadian news program This Hour Has Seven Days, during which he discussed his theories about gender.[13] At that time, surgical construction of the vagina was more advanced than construction of the penis, and Money believed that Reimer would be happiest in adulthood living as a woman with functioning genitalia.[14][15] Money and the Hopkins family team persuaded the baby’s parents that sex reassignment surgery would be in Reimer’s best interest.[16] At the age of 22 months, David underwent a bilateral orchiectomy, in which his testes were surgically removed and a rudimentary vulva was constructed by genital plastic surgery.[17] David was reassigned to be raised as female and given the name Brenda (similar to his birth name, “Bruce”).[18] Psychological support for the reassignment and surgery was provided by[19] John Money, who continued to see Reimer annually[20] for consultations and to assess the outcome.[21] This reassignment was considered an especially important test case[22] of the social learning concept of gender identity for two reasons: first, Reimer’s identical twin brother, Brian, made an ideal control because the brothers shared genes, family environments, and the intrauterine environment; second, this was reputed to be the first reassignment and reconstruction performed on a male infant who had no abnormality of prenatal or early postnatal sexual differentiation.[1]
Forced “sexual rehearsal”
Money reported on Reimer’s progress as the “John/Joan case”, describing apparently successful female gender development, even after David informed his father at age 14 that he had always felt that he was a boy, bringing the experiment to an end.[23]
According to John Colapinto, who published a biography of Reimer in 2001, the sessions with Money included what Money called “childhood sexual rehearsal play”.[24] Money theorized that reproductive behaviour formed the foundation of gender, and that “play at thrusting movements and copulation” was a key aspect of gender development in all primates. Starting at age six, according to Brian, the twins were forced to act out sexual acts, with David playing the female role—Money made David get down on all fours, and Brian was forced to “come up behind [him] and place his crotch against [his] buttocks”. Money also forced David, in another sexual position, to have his “legs spread” with Brian on top. On “at least one occasion” Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities.[24]
When either child resisted these activities, Money would get angry. Both David and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them. When they resisted inspecting each other’s genitals, Money got very aggressive. David says, “He told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, ‘Now!’ Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there shaking.”[24]
Money’s rationale for these various treatments was his belief that “childhood ‘sexual rehearsal play'” was important for a “healthy adult gender identity”.[24] Both David and Brian were traumatized[24][25] with Brian speaking about it “only with the greatest emotional turmoil”, and David unwilling to speak about the details publicly, although his wife, Jane Fontane, stated that David had privately told her the same story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
See also Hermaphrodite Herculine BarbinGenital modification and mutilationHistory of intersex surgeryNature versus nurturePenectomyEunuch
>When either child resisted these activities, Money would get angry. Both David and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them.
Unlikely, in my view. My late friend Richard Green knew Money well and liked the guy. I think he would have sussed out a bully.
>My late friend Richard Green knew Money well and liked the guy. I think he would have sussed out a bully.
Maybe ‘authoritarian’ more than ‘bully’. Kids can be mentally-emotionally ‘abused’ by strict adult authoritarians. Not least when ordered to act out intimate behaviors with another child, nowadays surely ‘Abuse’? E.G. “Abuser Money, retro struck-off! Much money awarded to ‘MeToo’ victims, survivors and families.”
Trust me, I’m not a doctor.
I would largely second Tom’s comment. I never got the chance to meet John Money, but the few I’ve met who did speak of him positively.
But, he was also well known as resenting criticism, and it is possible he was short-tempered with these boys, not always jovial and patient as is expected of contemporary sensibilities.
John Money famously had a fued with Milton Diamond, throwing a punch at him at a conference over Diamond’s published criticism of his work. I recall Richard Green writing that he and Money were distant for some years over criticism of his work, but reunited later on.
I wrote a page on Money where I tried to put the Reimer case in perspective: https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/John_Money
I wrote:
More broadly, we must bear in mind that both Money, Reimer, and many other people involved are now dead. We are arguing over interpretations of history, and there are now tons of journalists, writers and researchers who have a vested interest in monstering John Money.
He has become a kind of scapegoat used to attack the Transgender movement. Reimer’s suicide is held up as a reason to rubbish the idea of tolerating or accepting gender non-conformity in childhood. And, perhaps, used as a Trojan horse to undermine the whole idea of transness and gender transition itself.
Needless to say, I approach all of these claims with skepticism, and err on the side of caution in the belief and knowledge that most people do what they think is right, kind and proper. In the case of a medical doctor who performed pioneering procedures, made huge contributions to knowledge, and defended the Hippocratic Oath against the law which turned Doctors into agents of the State (mandated reporting), I believe John Money thought he wasn’t doing any harm. I doubt he was a Saint, but everything I’ve read of him gives me reason to believe he thought he was acting in people’s best interests, going on information and ideas available to him at the time.
Of course, I’m not currently a Youtuber and cannot produce glossy, highly edited videos with spooky music like many conservative channels featuring Dr. Miriam Grossman can, so it doesn’t matter much what I think at present. They will persuade the masses.
But, FWIW, that’s my perspective.
RIP John Money; RIP David Reimer.
>But, FWIW, that’s my perspective.
Worth plenty!
Well put, as per usual, Prue.
In context of that time, 6yr olds were mostly to be (ob)seen not heard. And this pup at 6 endured an unwanted anal examination by holiday home child-care staff asking if my toilet paper was red when wiped, I replied “Yes” and they went into full ‘protection’ mode with vaseline and medication. Later, rightly reported to my parents who then informed them that I was color blind and hardly knew red from brown. So some other kid was bloody sick but neglected while I was healthy and unnecessarily ‘abused’.
Further to earlier informed comments and enquiries. On two small boys not ‘consenting’ therefore ‘victims’ of sexual activities severely demanded by an overbearing adult male, also photographing those non-consensual activities.
Surely, here at HTOC of all places the glaring omission is ‘Empathy’?
I would agree but I am sceptical regarding the facts as described.
Facts as described, do include
[MOD: Sources, please, if you’re going to make strong allegations against individuals.]
>[MOD: Sources, please, if you’re going to make strong allegations against individuals.]
Strong observations respected in most robust academia. Or will accurately negative comments on the turncoat coward Tatchell be cancelled too?
[MOD: Negative comment by me on Tatchell was unimpeachably sourced to the man’s own published words, dug out from an old periodical in the British Library. Anyone in doubt can check this from the blog in question, where a facsimile of the key article is reproduced: https://heretictoc.com/2021/06/21/gilt-is-stripped-from-saint-peters-halo/%5D
This pup’s ‘money’ is always on the evidence.
[MOD: But you do not give any! If you did, I would run it.]
Just been suspended from Quora. you will never guess why? The first amendment needs to be applied EVERYWHERE . NOW
Below, I posted MAP activist Fragment’s interview alongside his mother. Now, he has been “interrogated” as the title puts it, by none other than Max Karson, better known as Mr. Girl. Famous for a positive review of Netflix’s movie Cuties, in which he said the girls’ (particularly “the blonde one”) were “hot,” Mr. Girl is known for his engagement with sensitive topics.
You can listen to the audio of Fragment and Mr. Girl on Freespeechtube: https://fstube.net/w/mr65XF5wBrygg4VGjAccb5
I made notes whilst listening, and read the ongoing discussion thread on MAP Union. FWIW, my thoughts most align with PorcelainLark’s comment on page 2.
Overall, you did brilliant, Frag. Wonderfully. Very proud of you.
I listened at 1.5x speed, so I didn’t get as much silence / dead air as on normal speed. But, “letting it hang” is one of Mr. Girl’s debate tactics, and you navigated it beautifully. I think you feel it went badly bc it didn’t end on a strong note, and the tone of the whole convo was negative: being grilled and called a “predator” for an hour. You kept your cool and remained articulate regardless.
To respond to Mr. Girl a bit:
>If it’s just about law, then could Brazillian young people “consent” before their age of consent was increased recently?
For a moment i froze reading this. I though i did miss something because Brazil’s age of consent is 14 since 1940.
An interesting fact, is that the legislator at that time think that consider people of 14 incapable for consent to sex was “hypocritically abstract reality” and that it was a contemporary fact that people at such age have at least some knowledge related to the sexual life. Sounds like at that time people understand lack of consent as complete inscience of sexual facts, while today people are always casting a doubt about imbalances of power and knowledge and responding to this with the framework of victimization.
Nothing wrong with 15 year old dating teacher. although the authorities will make sure the girl suffers. see video on fstube. im down as ephebofreedomfighter
Prue thoughts on second-watch!
You can respond to his “you like the vulnerability of kids” argument, by saying that you’d in fact love a world where the young were highly educated about sex and sexual diversity, were super knowledgeable, articulate and agentic. Had lots of freedom and independence, similar to young people from the 1960s and past eras.
From what I’ve gathered on forums, MAPs tend to love the idea that a young person is knowledgeable, clearly wanting, and initiates: they’d prefer that be the case overall. It’s weird that Mr. Girl argues that “helplessness” is what’s found attractive.
I’m glad you framed broad, hostile social responses as “extreme.” Also, calling Japan “progressive” in some respects, bringing up relaxed intergen public baths, was good framing.
Mr. Girl can’t seem to fathom that you’re facing potential jail time and deportation over what he sees as a small, insignificant age gap. But for the rest of us, it comes across clearly that your judgement was impaired due to mania and bipolar disorder. You come across as an unfortunate individual who’d never acted this way in his entire career so far, meaning it was out of character for you.
“For you to watch them grow, it implies they’re underdeveloped.”
> Everyone changes over time, and it’s a wonderful thing to see if you’ve had a big part in a positive change for someone. This can happen at any age, but is most evident with people who lack experience, who tend to be young. Also, yes, you have a sexual preference for people in an earlier stage of sexual maturity, no shit. “Underdeveloped” to Mr. Girl and me, perhaps, but to you I’d guess they’re juuuust right? A stunning lack of empathy from Mr. Girl here…
I was somewhat surprised you didn’t name drop Norman Douglas, when mentioning that you could have a lifelong friendship with a former sexual partner. It’s an example where this occurred, with letters from the former boys themselves to evidence their feelings.
The fact you say you’d rather a loved boy go on to have normal hetero relations, have his own family etc., fits with the evolutionary/adaptive thesis that sees MAPs as preparing the young for their future sexual life. I’m thinking of Azande “Boy Wives” and the Sambia in New Guinea. The latter of which, like Japan in recent times which you mentioned, has seen its tolerant and relaxed approach to age and sex fall to the wayside under the pressure and influence of the West. Especially America, the evil empire.
“You lose the empathy when you rationalize it”
> NO YOU DO NOT! Keep explaining, keep pointing out hypocrisy, keep making them think!
He’s trying to resist empathy, thinking what it’d be like if his sexuality was outlawed and subject to the same scrutiny where you can’t even talk to a potential romantic / sexual interest without coming under suspicion.
The irony is, that after #MeToo and Man vs. Bear, heterosexual men have started to come under immense scrutiny, being widely cast as “dangerous” and “predatory.”
The reality is that many people may want to have sex with you, but don’t want to rape you.
Finally, let’s be clear: an argument can be self-serving, but that doesn’t make it wrong or incorrect.
I’ve met gay scholars who conducted research with very self-serving, “oh, that’s convenient, gayness is totally normal then” research, even during the 1980s when it was still dangerous to publish on. The fact of something being convenient for you to believe or find, doesn’t make the findings false or arguments incorrect. I don’t care about your identity, I care if you make good arguments, cite credible sources, etc., not if you’re gay, straight, or whatever.
Again, you did great Frag.
Mr. Girl’s finale, posturing that you should “stay away from kids for the rest of your life,” may sound good to him and other Antis, but reflects again a lack of empathy.
Telling a teacher who loved their job and has only ever known working with children, to never be around them again, is frankly ridiculous and asking a lot. It reflects the hysteria that MAPs are on the prowl, ready to grab the next kid they see on the street, rather than the reality that you had to be suffering from mania to slip up and break the law after at least 10 years of teaching with no issues.
It’s good that MAPs aren’t all the “predator” discourse makes them out to be, because it’s nyon impossible to avoid children and young people in daily life. A more constructive response would consider what kind of roles you might be good at and enjoy that, since you may not be allowed to, don’t involve working with legally defined minors.
Your priority now, may well be to focus on strategies to secure a non-custodial (non-prison) sentence, which thankfully your lawyer is apparently keen to work on.
Good luck Frag. Keep going. Keep being your lovely self.
This “argument” ruined the interview for me. Only sadists are attracted to vulnerability. This point was an attempt to play on the misunderstanding of attraction in the eyes of the antis, for whom it will look “logical”. MAPs, like most people, are attracted by a set of phenotypes and behavior patterns, and not by illegality and prohibition. Just because minors would be more autonomous wouldn’t make them any less attractive.
To counter these manipulations, it is necessary to emphasize and illustrate that openness and awareness will increase the safety and get better the mental health of minors, who will not have to experience pressure from authoritative adults and services
Thanks for the support, Prue.
The interview I did yesterday was much better.
A less experienced interviewer, asking nothing unexpected.
Plus I was able to implement some of the things I’d reflected on after my interview with Max.
My prison sentence will very likely begin in the summer. I’m glad to have been able to leave something of a legacy to the community before then.
During World War Two, the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands turned three teenage girls into fierce resistance fighters. Truus Oversteegen, Freddie Oversteegen and Hannie Schaft have been remembered for their technique of luring collaborators into the forest for them to be executed.
Two teenage girls killed nazis during WWII. now of course they are completely incapable according to USA, etc!!
Solidarity with Children: An Essay Against Adult Supremacy (2025)
by Madeline Lane-McKinley
Here’s the author, apparently being interviewed by a then-15-year-old, Anarchist youth rights activist: https://thechildanditsenemies.noblogs.org/post/2024/08/08/madeline-lane-mckinley-and-childhood-as-a-concept/
the attempt here to characterize “adult supremacy” straight off the bat by the “genocide against children in Gaza” is not only the most tendentious thing i’ve read all week but word up to TO’C that we can only pretend now to section all these things into appropriate topic-zones when in fact they have long become one.giant intersectional clusterf**k with Israel at its heart from which no conscientious intellect may any longer get out of argument-jail free..
Mr Turp writes:
>…the attempt here to characterize…
The attempt, whatever it was, was not made here, at HTOC, but in a link to a webpage promoting a book, Solidarity with Children: An Essay Against Adult Supremacy. The subject is clearly on-topic for HTOC, hence deserving a link. Whether any of us disagrees with some aspect of the book is irrelevant to this primary concern.
Obviously, linked webpages, podcasts, etc, often include masses of text and/or spoken content in which a vast range of thoughts and opinions are expressed. This is fine by me even though I am sure I could find much to disagree with if I had time to scrutinise everything closely. As for ruling anything on another website off-topic on its own site, that is fortunately not my responsibility!
-Dr. Devon Price, in a comment under his article ‘Abolish Age’ (linked below).
Bro’s flying close to the sun. He’s being honest and authentic online – a very bold move!
This is how it starts, Devon. You start noticing one spot of bullshit, and you start seeing it everywhere. Stay in relative obscurity, don’t record yourself talking about it, and you’ll be fine. If anyone wants to comment on his Substack articles, I reckon he could be nudged into further heretical thought. At least, he might actually read and politely respond to things you say; he’s currently very open-minded, it seems.
Asking him if he’s heard of X, what he thinks on Y, is probably the best approach.
Learning about kids being placed on the sex offender’s register, being charged as creators and distributors of CP, creators of “self-generated abuse material” for taking their own nudes, would break his brain with how ridiculous it is. Simultaneously ‘innocent’ whilst knowingly sexual, he’d definitely like Kerry Robinson’s work. If you sprinkle in mentions of pro-c “indigenous” cultures, via Stevi Jackson (appeal to his feminist sensibilities), the Trobriands, or Gilbert Herdt’s semen-drinking-makes-you-a-man Sambia people, there’s a high chance you’ll plant the seed for further heretical thinking. He’s halfway there already.
Abolish Age – Every person deserves both freedom and support — no matter how long they’ve been alive (Substack, April 7, 2025).
Interact with Minors – Video Version (Substack, April 3, 2025). Also on Freespeechtube: https://fstube.net/w/54WFzrf73Sev67LkmoMrjv
Someone’s been having heretical thoughts!
Tom I don’t know if you have read Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World (I have not but am aware of various lines about a dystopian future) — It came up in a video conversation and some lines were quoted regarding kids being sexually promiscuous in Huxley’s book, doesn’t sound much of a dystopia regarding that unlike age-apartheid today. In this article the writer discusses how despite Huxley seeing a highly sexual society as negative — distract/control through hedonism. it can be liberating too. Also mentioned is a book by Marge Piercy — Woman On The Edge Of Time.
https://confluence.gallatin.nyu.edu/sections/research/sexual-liberation-as-a-characteristic-of-utopia
Yes, Pat, I did read Brave New World about 60 years ago. At that time, I was about the same age as Maisy Nelson when she wrote your linked article as an undergraduate essay.
Her essay is excellent. Well spotted, and thanks for drawing it to our attention.
There’s nothing dystopian about sex with children. It’s the sweetest and most innocent thing in the world. It’s pure joy.
A new lot of ganja?
Love to see “age apartheid” being used here!
Child Bride of Short Creek is a 1981 American made-for-televisiondrama film written by Joyce Eliason, starring Christopher Atkins, Diane Lane, Conrad Bain, Helen Hunt and Dee Wallace. The film is a dramatization.
Loosely based upon the 1953 Short Creek raid that had occurred in Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah, United States. Collectively known as “Short Creek,” a community of members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a group that practices child marriage and polygamy.
Recalls WAY backwoods cuntry-folk song, “Cripple Creek gals half-grown, jump ohn a man like a dawg ohn a bone.”
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=Child+Bride+of+Short+Creek
https://www.amazon.com/Child-Bride-Short-Christopher-Atkins/dp/B077697MNC
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=youtube+child+bride+of+short+creek
MAP podcast Little Nicky, interviews the Australian MAP activist Fragment, alongside his supportive mother. Watch and listen on Freespeechtube:
https://fstube.net/w/xd1o7ctj2s51v97EVZhwHs
Very interesting. Thanks, Prue.
Another interesting interview with Fragment, by MrGirl. I don’t think it went well. Definitely worth listening – food for thoughts:
https://mrgirl.substack.com/p/interview-with-the-child-molester
Thanks, I’ve commented above about this. What dya think didn’t go well? Could Frag have done much differently, under the circumstances?
Best ~
No, I think Frag did well, but the overall feeling of mine is that it didn’t went well irrespective of that.
MrGirl raised some valid points. Even I, as a MAP (a paedophile, actually), without any time pressure, listening while mowing the lawn, have found some of the MrGirl questions very challenging and difficult to answer or argue with.
Now imagine a regular person listening. Although it was not the conclusion of the interview, I can see people coming out of it with a clear view: “Hell yeah, all pedos are predators.”
Am I a predator? No, I am not. That’s why I think everyone should listen to this, think about it, and learn from it. It is not common that we are allowed to express our views to public, so when get the chance, we rather be prepared.
Benjamin Doyle: Unclear if Green MP returning to Parliament soon after threats, New Zealand Herald (April 6th, 2025).
New Zealand’s first non-binary MP, Doyle shared posts of his son, including a photo of a fatherly kiss on the lips, to his “Bussy” account. “Bussy” means “Boy Pussy,” often used by Femboys, Trans, and gender non-conforming people online. Broadly, it has nothing to do with MAPs, but because his posts involved a real and unambiguous “boy” the connection is being made.
The fact he used a snail emoji on the post kissing his son, has also been perceived as signaling to the MAP community.
Yes, there’s a semi conspiracy theory about the snail emoji, which is funny bc if you shout loudy enough as the Antis do, MAPs will pick up on it like a self fulfilling prophecy. I guess what I’m saying is, snails are based…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Doyle
The classical Age of Reason was 7, knowing basic right from wrong.
F.B. Kid sussed SeX at six.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=3022320251266966&set=a.177774789054874
>The classical Age of Reason was 7, knowing basic right from wrong…to lie, cheat, steal, kill.
While for 4-centuries ongoing Worldwide the so called ‘adult’ anti-social Anglo Fascists still don’t deliver those basics. History’s worst still perversely posing as ‘World Best’ – WTF?!
If you ever needed more evidence that neotenous women, who tend to be young, are generally found most attractive and are not always over the magic line of age 18, check out the TikTok/Insta dance group the “Bop House.”
It’s a bit like a kinky house, but for social media follows and easy money, rather than exploring or fulfilling sexual fetishes. As know your meme puts it,
An editorial tells us that after its founding in Dec 2024, by Sophie Rain who made over $40 million from OnlyFans at age 19 in 1 year, it quickly gained millions of views. The group mostly upload cute, silly, clean and attractive, but in no way nude, dance and lip-dub videos. However, they went through controversy after they considered including Piper Rockelle in the house, a TikToker with over 12 million followers, who was 17-years-old at the time.
She did make a well-known, short (as they tend to be), cute TikTok dance with a few of them (seen in the middle here, with Sophie Rain to her right). Due to the drama, one member cried on video and quit, but the narrative was that Piper did not in fact join the group.
The House reportedly made over $10 million a month at one point. So, in reality, Piper and other young women will just wait till they’re 18 to get involved, practicing their dancing, makeup, camera angles in the meantime.
>If you ever needed more evidence that neotenous women, who tend to be young, are generally found most attractive and are not always over the magic line of age 18, check out the TikTok/Insta dance group the “Bop House.”
Channel 4’s, 1982 MiniPops programme began attracting criticism from commentators in the British media for the portrayal of children in this manner.[4] One caller on Channel 4’s Right to Reply programme stated, “Minipops should be called MiniWhores. Are you people out of your mind?”[3][5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minipops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=JFG67rSxHAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcCO5LvPfTg&pp=0gcJCfcAhR29_xXO
The “Miniwhores” comment is funny, but a TV show from the 80s doesn’t signify clear popularity like an OnlyFans creator making $40 million in 1 year at 19. And then linking up with other, similar creators who’ve all got millions of followers, all conspicuously around 17-21 years old.
You could look at the ratings for MiniPops to estimate its popularity, but I doubt they’re comparable to Sophie Rain and the like.
There may well be pre-pubescent child stars or models who have millions of followers on TikTok and Insta, I wouldn’t know, but I strongly doubt there’s many.
People of 14, 15, 16 and 17, sure. But pre-pubescents… not so much.
In my view, “paedophilia” in the clinical sense is unusual, non-normative. I just don’t believe that we should be nasty to people over it.
For parents who are concerned, just be mindful of the company your children keep. The constant panic and fearmongering is way OTT.
The panic would be unnecessary, except for the fact it’s become a highly successful political tool, to stoke backlash against sexual and gender diversity. Libsoftiktok, etc.
Building up an association between drag performers and pedophilia, for instance, which led to the Club Q shooting.
Posting on the daily every time an LGBTQ+ person falls foul of the age taboo, transgressed age apartheid.
Anyway, a fascinating historical note from you. I’d never heard of MiniPops before, so thanks for posting.
Readers may wish to note the French sociologist Juliette Rennes, who has published some thoughtful and useful articles.
“The History of Sexual Norms: The Hold of Age and Gender” (2015 ), https://journals.openedition.org/cliowgh//1018
“Unpacking Age as a Category” (2019), https://shs.cairn.info/journal-revue-francaise-de-sociologie-2019-2-page-257?lang=en
Excerpt from the latter:
Great info, Prue! I would just quickly note that in classical Roman times girls could marry (and have sex within marriage) very young. The most accepted earliest age by custom and practice appears to have been 12 for females and 14 for males, but much depended on the authority and will of the “pater familias” i.e. the male, patriarchal, head of the family.
Multiples of 7 were considered important as a signifier of maturity, which is how 21 came to be the age of majority in countries influenced by the Romans, including Britain. If I remember correctly, a man did not become a full citizen, with the possibility of becoming, for instance, a member of the Senate, until age 28: a further multiple of four.
So it was OK to be sexually active in Rome, and even to take responsibility for starting a family, very young; but you could in some respects (especially financial control) remain a minor, even as a male, while your own father or grandfather remained alive.
“Multiples of 7 were considered important as a signifier of maturity”
>Interesting, because there’s currently a dictum going round: “half your age plus 7.” As google assist puts it, using its horrible therapy language:
It’s often invoked as an implicit rule or guide for age-gap dating. Psychology today wrote about it, and tons of news articles, comments, and creators discuss and give their takes on it. Personally, I don’t care about age gaps: you can be 70 dating an 18-year-old for all I care. What I care about is if you’re happy together, and treat each other well. That’s what’s most important.
‘half your age plus 7’. Also known as ‘bollocks’
Absolute bollocks indeed!
IMO this makes some sense. It allows us to rethink age periods and their connection with socio-biological context and chronophilia. Pedophilia (0-6); Hebephilia (7-14); Ephebophilia (15-21).
Hmm… maybe, Harlan.
In my understanding, paedophiles tend to be drawn to children who are pre-pubescent or perhaps early pubescent. Those who can very much walk and talk, be good conversation partners, etc. Wasn’t the average age preference in the Wilson and Cox PIE study something like 10 or 11 years?
Whatever the case, infancy to 6 years is way too small a cut off, and is now often separated from pedophilia under the label of nepiophilia. I think that’s accurate and important.
Tom O’Carroll himself (speaking as if you’re not here lol), starts in his 1980 book by saying that paedophilic attraction to infants is extremely rare. To my knowledge, that is the case. There may well be feelings of tenderness and care in the way most people feel towards babies, but the sexual feeling towards them is lacking.
So, I’m not so sure about the reclassification you’re suggesting, though I like your willingness to question and rethink established categories. I personally think the major psychologists, Michael Seto and the like, are meaningfully accurate in how they divide up the chronophilias.
(Though, I view Nepi, Hebe, and Epeb, and Mesophilia as controversial categories, and would strongly advocate against pathologizing any of them. These aren’t mental illnesses, just erotic preferences which relate to sexual maturity and social tendencies).
Yes, Prue, I agree with your thoughts here.
The org European Digital Rights (EDRi), has found that “80% of children in the EU say that they would not feel comfortable & safe being politically active or exploring their sexuality if authorities were able to monitor their digital communications on the basis of finding child abuse material.”
Their project “Stop Scanning Me,” advocates against “the EU’s proposed Child Sexual Abuse Regulation (CSAR),” and sounds a valuable, important org and project to be aware of…
Another bit of BREAKING NEWS!!!
Virginia Giuffre, the woman who accused Prince Andrew of having sex with her when she was 17-years-old, after she was brought to him (“trafficked”) by Jeffrey Epstien, has now gone viral for being in a car crash. After securing an estimated $12-14 million settlement from her Prince Andrew suit, she’s now a 41-year-old mother of three, who recently broke a restraining order, and is believed to have divorced her husband last year. In her latest drama, she posted a photo of her face, battered and bruised, appearing to be in a hospital, with a caption saying she’s got “4 days” to live.
At first I thought some variation of “he’s finally done it and bumped her off!” But the plot gets thicker than that!!! There’s reason to believe she was lying, bringing with it a new flurry of backlash and criticism of her credibility!
To quote from an incredible Daily Beast article:
Some other great quotes:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/guess-how-prince-andrew-feels-about-the-latest-virginia-giuffre-news/
Moral of the story: never settle.
I dont really blame him due to the horrors of the us ‘justice’. System….
BREAKING NEWS!!! Russell Brand, comedian turned political commentator, has been charged (but not convicted) of historic rape and sexual assault charges. This means he will have to appear in UK court, which is set to happen in May this year…
There was a large amount of media coverage about “allegations” not so long ago, which included the apparent fact of his past sexual relationship with a 16-year-old female high school student. (This is legal, but frowned upon in the UK)… Now, these allegations, who has consistently denied he has ever engaged in “non-consensual activity,” have turned into court trials.
His short Youtube response is here: https://youtube.com/shorts/ifvM69HrGAQ?si=Pcektcys2kveuB7w
As he puts it,
Personally, I highly suspect that’s true. He is probably, guilty of what scholars would call “bad sex,” but I strongly doubt he has ever forced someone into sexual activity.
The problem is legal codes for “rape” and “sexual assault” have expanded, so he may well struggle to avoid prosecution. He has likely had sex with many drunk, high, and young women, whose capacity to meaningfully agree (or consent) to sex, will now come into question. He has probably been very pushy, so there may well be a charge of “sexual assault” in his future. On the other hand, these activities are alleged to have occured around 20 or more years ago, so cases may get thrown out for lack of evidence.
(I’m aware of the typo here, btw. Wouldn’t let me edit it after posting. You’ll just have to ignore it, and you’ll get the message anyways).
‘Raise the AOC’ didn’t help Stead who ‘went down’ on the Titanic. Cunnilingus on an inanimate ship still not a crime?
Quote Anglo-Irish hedonist Gay Victorian victim visionary Wilde, 1891,”The 4th Estate is now the only estate, it has eaten up the other three. The Lords Spiritual say nothing, the Lords Temporal have nothing to say, and the Commons has nothing to say and says it! We are DOMINATED by journalism.”
Bonus Wilde quote, “Aubrey Beardsley’s publisher (Leonard Smithers) loves all children except boys.”
HOT Loli MAP Smithers was notorious for posting a slogan at his bookshop in Bond Street reading “Smut is cheap today”. One of his hobbies was “deflowering little girls”, about which Brit-wit Wilde also said, “He loves first editions.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Smithers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decadent_movement
i need to be a sneaky Joo Schmoo here and ask if i have more hopes of being seen by posting a response to bzzzzt! ZT topside here , or *way down* (title of last song ever recorded by His Pelviscosity) there in EarlierCommentLand? Truth be told i don’t know if HereticTO’C even has a new reply notification function? I’ve been re-attending to that there reply i speak of for some time now, and do so wish not to consign heem to south of the border!
oh so my question to you above Tom was somewhat baroquely obscured? I simply wanted to know what chance the poster of a much earlier comment here has of seeing s/he has a new reply? Or even being notified that s/he has?
Sorry I didn’t reply to this last night, Mr Turp. I has an 18-hour day’s travelling and event schedule yesterday. Only had time to pass items through moderation, not comment.
You asked about comment notifications, by which I think you mean automatic ones. The last time someone asked about this I followed up by asking our tech back-up folks what the WP software can/does provide. I do not recall getting an answer. I’ll try again.
Now that’s some schedule, Tom! I trust we will learn something of these (ad)ventures just as soon as they are narratable! Meanwhile, i might tweak it a tad and post my draft topside.
A story from somewhere different: South Korea.
One of the highest paid actors in South Korea, actor Kim Soo-Hyun, has consistently denied rumors that he dated the late actress Kim Sae-ron when she was legally a “minor.”
Reportedly, the drama began on March 24, 2024, when the guy denied that they had been dating. The young actress had briefly posted, then deleted, a close-up photo of the two, which began circulating widely online. Amid intense scrutiny a year later, the actress killed herself on February 16, 2025, the same day as Kim Soo-Hyun’s birthday.
The family have claimed that Kim had been in a six-year-long relationship with Kim Sae-ron, beginning in 2015 when she was 15, and he 27. Kim claims that they only dated from 2019 onwards, once she was of legal age. In a recent press conference, Kim can be seen crying as he denies the claims and laments her death. Still, as you’ll see in the comments, people online aren’t buying it, accusing him of “crocodile tears,” etc.
Let’s assume they did have some romantic / sexual connection, when she was 15 and onwards. Is that really so bad?!
Actually, we don’t have to speculate. Let’s hear from the people themselves! [E.g. https://www.koreaboo.com/news/kim-sae-rons-family-reveals-kim-soo-hyuns-message-2016-minor/ ].
In text messages made public after her death, she clearly reciprocates wanting to kiss him:
In another, they talk positively about laying in bed together, holding each other as they fall asleep:
If these are the kinds of messages, then why is everyone so myopically focused on her age, and not the nature of their relationship? That they were kind to each other, and perhaps loved one another, is surely far more important than an age gap they can’t change?
This is hardly an older man “taking advantage” of, or “raping,” a young actress. To call this “sexual abuse” would be ridiculous, so the haters have focused on “grooming” instead. Under the weight of these negative framings, what seems to have been a very reciprocal, loving relationship, was utterly ruined and driven to despair by a deranged and misguided public.
It’s frankly disgusting that these two very talented actors have had their lives destroyed, one driven to suicide, by showing affection for each other. Another victim of pedohysteria…
Understably to me, the one “Kim” still alive is trying to save his career. He, or his agency, have launched a lawsuit worth millions against the late actress’ family. They very likely blame him for the actress’ death, as they have spearheaded the campaign to “accuse” him of dating her when she was underage, causing him much personal and professional distress.
What a strange world we live in…
Tom, what are your views on MAPs and the criminal underworld, if you have one?
Unfortunately, Tom, I have known that gangsters like their own daughters (but in the kindest way).
Tom, this is potentially important, as crime is still an, yes, essential part of our civilisation.
>Tom, what are your views on…
Other people here also have views, Zen. I throw this one open to the floor.
Some Maps are in a way forced into the criminal underworld for instance if a Map or any other person with another sexual orientation for that matter has parents who have molested them through their childhood and groomed them into thinking that such behavior is normal and then initiates them into their grooming gang world as they start to become adults and end up being part of the illegal ring that is being organized and operated within the family unit then I think its fair to ask the question is that person born evil or are they born a victim who deserve sympathy after all if you don’t know any different due to the organized grooming that they where brought up with then to some extent one could say that genuine criminal has been diminished.
AAMAPrimates..
https://www.facebook.com/reel/697430561874803
I have been looking for news about trials and arrests in Spain since 2015, following the raising of the age of consent from 13 to 16, and I have read horrors. For example, a 14-year-old teenager who was picked up by the police at his home because he had made a date with a man. In court, the boy said that the relationship was consensual, that he didn’t feel “violated” and that he didn’t know why he was there. In another case, a 24-year-old man was sentenced to 10 years for having a 14-year-old girlfriend. The judges themselves recognise that this is a very harsh sentence and suggest a partial pardon for the accused.
Before 2015, none of these relationships would have resulted in arrest because they were consensual, but now any relationship with a minor under 16 is considered “rape” even if the minor claims that he or she had sex of his or her own free will. In addition, the penalties for sexual offences were increased, so that those accused of having sex with minors can easily spend more than 10 years in prison.
I was curious about the case of a high school teacher arrested a few weeks ago because, according to the news, she had told a student that he could not have sex until he turned 16. That was considered harassment of the boy and for that the woman was arrested.
I can link to each of the news items if anyone asks me to.
Thanks, Captain. Please give one link for each case, it it’s not too much trouble.
This is the news about the 14-year-old boy who did not want to report his “rapist”.
https://www.elprogreso.es/articulo/lugo/anos-carcel-hombre-que-agredio-sexualmente-menor-que-conocio-aplicacion/202305231648371667731.html
This is the news about the 26 year old man sentenced to 10 years for having consensual sex with his 14 year old girlfriend. He was 26 and not 24, I quoted the case from memory in my previous message and I was wrong by two years.
https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/nacional/2018/07/17/condenado-anos-carcel-por-tener-sexo-consentido-con-una-menor-vitoria-1258032-305.html
And this is the news about the pupil and the teacher.
https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/nacional/2025/03/05/mossos-denuncian-profesora-acoso-agresion-sexual-alumno-la-garriga-1804947.html
Again I was wrong for quoting from memory and I apologise. The teacher was not arrested, but reported by the police. It is difficult to make an assessment of the case without knowing more details, but I suspect that it may be a typical case of a pupil and a teacher falling in love and wanting to have sex. I doubt very much that there was actual harassment.
I have found another case in which the prosecution is only asking for three years in prison for another female teacher for having consensual relations with a 15 year old boy who was about to turn 16. The advantages of being a woman in today’s society are indisputable.
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2019-06-25/abuso-sexual-menores-menor-profesora_2088082/
Thanks! Mercifully, it’s so easy these days to read media worldwide with Google instant translation. Well, maybe not so merciful when the news is so bad, but we need to know what is going on.
I would like to post better news, but I can’t find it.
Another case that has caught my attention. A man is sentenced to seven years in prison and spends almost two years in jail for having arranged a date with a 14-year-old boy through Grindr. The boy told him he was 18 and the court acquits the man because, when he met the boy, he thought he was 18.
https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/lugo/2023/09/26/tsxg-absuelve-lucense-habian-condenado-abusar-chico-14-anos-conocio-aplicacion-citas/00031695739860058851561.htm
They may not be positive articles but that’s media’s negativity bias anyways, and the fact that positive cases that don’t come to the attention of the authorities won’t become news. It’s not your fault.
Positive cases are found by researchers or journalists using community samples, or the odd celebrity, public figure, or online commenter speaking out. Or, bits of positive testimony slip through the cracks in legal proceedings.
The same is true of those who look back to homosexuality’s earlier history: there’s a reliance on court documents to find evidence that such relations even existed. Most people would not keep records of their own criminal activity, which could in some societies have led to their execution. If they did, they might, at best, have their memoirs privately published after their death, like Kenneth Seawright’s “Paidikion.” But these were rare and unusual, and it’s understandable that, with the weight of taboo and heavy legal and social risks, people keep their mouths shut.
Anyway, thanks for posting. It’s an important historical moment to be aware of. We can now track cases and say with hindsight that a lower AOC would’ve spared these positive experiences from prosecution. Much suffering could’ve been avoided for these non-rape offences.
It seems that the man acquitted after spending almost two years in prison is the same man who had sex with the 14 year old boy who did not want to report him. All this suffering for the man and the boy for a consensual relationship, and after the acquittal the newspaper still calls the minor a “victim”. Of course there are two victims here: both the boy and the man have been victims of unjust laws and of a blind and narrow-minded society that refuses to recognise the sexual autonomy of minors.
Personally their should be a clause if the minor is female as girls mature faster than boys ?So there should be lesser sentence ? Just an idea…..
In case people haven’t seen it, there was a special issue of the journal Sex Education last year, with many relevant articles:
The politics of age in sex and sexuality education for children and young people, in Sex Education, Volume 24, Issue 5 (2024)
The introduction, headed by Kerry H. Robinson (mentioned below), is open-access.
The articles even address the sexual behavior of young children in education settings, so they don’t totally limit themselves to adolescents and teenagers. Quite brave IMO.
Growing sideways: Re-articulating ontologies of childhood within/through relationships and sexuality education (RSE), Katherine Atkinson et al. (2022).
“‘the knowing child’, which is rooted in problematic and paternalistic notions of ‘age appropriateness’:
In what follows, we consider RSE as a unique opening to reconsider the ontology of childhood, and to challenge the restrictive and harmful constructions of children as innocent, irrational and disembodied beings.”
[They are clearly very inspired by Kerry Robinson’s incredibly brave ‘anti-innocence’ work, which would give the Antis an aneurysm… See Kerry H. Robinson, Innocence, Knowledge and the Construction of Childhood: The Contradictory Nature of Sexuality and Censorship in children’s Contemporary Lives (London: Routledge, 2012/2013). Some very based women…]
I am reminded of Kathryn Bond Stockton’s chapter in the multi-author book Curiouser: on the Queerness of Children from back in 2004.
Her excellent chapter was called “Growing Sideways, or Versions of the Queer Child”. She was contesting the mainstream concept of child development as “growing UP”, which misses the child’s potential for “lateral growth”. The latter is seen as residing in children’s capacity for self-initiated, exploratory (and quirkily “queer”) development, rather than being forced into an elevator with the button pressed for going up. So “lateral growth” is about mental/personal growth, not a reference to childhood obesity!
Wow, quirkily queer is a mouthful Tom. Is that like poly-something perverse?
Ah, polymorphous perverse, Freud’s description of early childhood sexuality! As for “quirkily queer”, the words are nearly synonymous, so I supposed I could be accused of tautology, or redundancy, as with “queerly queer”. What I was trying to hint at, though, was that children’s queerness has lots of unpredictable individuality: Stockton’s use of the term goes far beyond sexuality.
I remember going to a theme park with my friend and his 8 year old niece. I teased her a bit, and she started openly flirting with me, trying to physically get close to me and pursuing me to the point that my friend made a joke about how noticeable it was. He did not blame me of course, because he was neither blind to her actions nor pedohysterical. I did not reciprocate of course, because of the insane laws. And that is a very sad thing, especially for her as I am not particularly attracted to prepubescents, but would’ve made an exception since she was so sweet.
As an adult, the experience taught me a life lesson about young girls’ sexuality for sure, after I’d already gotten a few lessons in my youth about them 🙂
Well I was just thinking, I’d love to be UN Global High Council for Kids.
I love kids so much, and even little kids in war-torn Gaza would be alright after a shower 🙂 They’re so cute.
I’m also Mr. Worldwide, which is perfect for my UN role. I go 1. Asian 2. European 3. African. Specifically: 1. Middle Eastern (Arabic / Sunni Muslim oh yes) 2. White European 3. Far Eastern / Sinitic / Han Chinese 4. African. African is a high #4 and my African princesses mean a lot to me.
Tom, will you witness my nomination for UN Kids High Council? 🙂
Code: High Protocol Richard
>Tom, will you witness my nomination for UN Kids High Council?
Witness it? Sure, why not?
Endorse it? That would depend on who the other nominees are to be, in this notional election/selection. I hope they would include other heretics here too. Also, if the High Council is to be comprised mainly of kids themselves, as seems fitting, one hopes they are not to be selected via the usual NGO anti-MAP mafia stitch-up that has dominated the UN for decades.
Fair enough Tom.
The UN High Council on Children are ten, Barack Obama had chaired in the past. Angelina Jolie is one.
There’s no anti-MAP agenda on the Council. It’s more about relief for war-torn children, ensuring children are adequately well fed globally, and promoting children’s happiness worldwide.
3yo potentially life-threatening approved ENCOURAGED!
https://www.facebook.com/ximoments/videos/935819265299509
FB meme paraphrased, woman in a shoe-shop to MAP, “I’ve noticed that you lift little girls’ feet high enough to see their knickers when fitting their shoes – is that why you work here?”
“No madam you’re quite wrong, I don’t work here.”
why no link to that FB meme itself, HHP?
>why no link to that FB meme itself, HHP?
It’s paraphrased from a cute cartoon of a guy holding a seated woman’s ankles wide in a shoe-shop.
What could today’s totalitarian neo-Victorian antis possibly say to:
1: Millions of fun tots including AAMs near-nude legally encouraged to share potentially dangerous close-contact swimming or wrestling with near-nude fun adults including MAPs?
2: Millions of 1960s ongoing fun young (often underage) fans chasing, grabbing, groping, grooming, fucking adult Rock-Pop stars. Many fans now grinning grannies fondly recall their illegal fun SeX with adult stars?
Recalls 1990s ‘Love Magnet’ Bold MAP invited to a family swimming party by a MAP pal Dad with 6yo HOT Loli/AAM. In the crowded pool climbing body-close all over wet Bold MAP, and constantly legs-wide SLIDING up and down his slippy-wet chest, hips, thighs and shins, with her slippy-wet 1-piece swimsuit smooth HOT crotch. While Fun Bold MAP’s large hands tightly held her plump HOT butts – for safety snatch, er, natch.
Global new Olymp-rick logo, “Sport for All – SeX for All – U know it makes Nonce-sense.”
1: I’d say perfectly usual and considered okay even today, as long as the MAP is a family friend and not known to be a MAP, at least in the real world out there. Internet antis would probably say “No adult man should ever touch your child unless there is a very serious reason for that”, but most parents do not see the world through such lens.
And what could any anti like Ron Di Santis MAP EXECUTIONER say 2: Millions of 1960s ongoing fun young (often underage/AAMs) fans chasing, grabbing, groping, grooming, fucking adult Rock-Pop stars. Many fans now grinning grannies fondly recall their illegal fun SeX with adult stars?
Anglo mainstream fake media is the real DARK Web.
In 1997, Kid Rock wrote the song “Cool, Daddy Cool” which was later used in the 2001 children’s movie Osmosis Jones. In the song, Kid Rock said the controversial lyrics “Young ladies, young ladies, I like ’em underage see, Some say that’s statutory (But I say it’s mandatory)”, with Joe C. saying the mandatory line.[92][93]
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10227943705637491&set=a.1041336513149
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Rock
hes Republican… not going to mix with liking underage folk…..
Wonder if it’s on Newgon’s music list?…
Earlier in the comments section, I brought up the UK’s Crime and Policing Bill which contains numerous provisions relevant to the MAP community.
Mu has now published a detailed analysis – https://www.map-union.org/blog/the-crime-and-policing-bill-teardown-what-you-need-to-know-as-a-map
Important work. Well done!
The goverment and police dont give a crap about young people….. Two laws that passed thorugh in 2005… one allowing teens to be prosecuted for sexting (ok they changed that after someone pointed out how dumb that was ) but still police allowed to take young peoples phones to look through their private photos without consent. Licensing act which prosecutes udner 18s for attempting to buy a drink. while happily taking tax money off them. …
Sydney author Lauren Tesolin-Mastrosa arrested over ‘pedophilia’ book
Author’s apology:
I wanted to add something funny, but it’s hard to caricature something so bizarre.
Truly sick that this was banned. I’m fed up with the way society is, and so are many normal people. They now have to ban art, for the sake of Sick People’s feelings. Really crazy, since when did Sick People get priority over Normal and Healthy MAPs.
> So, the author has effectively lost her job, at least for the moment, and broken her anonymity over the controversy. There’s lessons here:
1). Provocative titles are just that, provocative. Be aware and ready to receive emotionally charged responses if you’re in the business of rousing people’s emotions… Putting “barely legal” on the back cover might be funny, and perhaps arousing for the book’s author, but not the smartest marketing move if you’re only looking to attract positive attention. You, and the publisher, have to be able to accept polarized discussion and debate; if you can’t, don’t publish such edgy things…
2). If you’re an anonymous author, don’t give up your anonymity during a scandal. It’s a silly thing to do… If your identity is revealed by other’s, then fine, there’s not much you can do except ignore it…
3.) Be clear that publisher’s know what they’re publishing, and the risks of what they’re publishing. Allyn Walker’s book was never withdrawn by the university press, because they knew the risks and contents inside-out, but published it anyway. Allyn deliberately went with a publisher known for controversial work, from Steven Angelides to Joseph Fischel. Whereas this author’s publisher claims to have only read half the book before releasing it.
It all seems very ridiculous, mostly stemming from the provocative title and cover, “Daddy’s Little Toy.”
If she’d couched her book as a sex abuse “survivor” story, she would’ve been lauded and praised as “stunning and brave!” But she was too positive about a topic that we’re all told is so “dark,” “disgusting,” “unspeakable”!
Clearly she was too free-thinking, raw and real for these miserable busy-bodies. On the flipside, it’s a bit like the “Daddy’s Little Slut” T-shirt controversy some years ago. Whenever these occur, it just means we all have more cool products to invest in! :p
That is some serious “Fahrenheit 451” stuff , with a side helping of “Nineteen Eighty-Four”
For someone who hates the BBC so much, Pup, you seem to spend a lot of time listening to it.
FWIIW, I also listened to STW this morning, as I often do because the contributors tend to be worth hearing. Part of the reason why it often turns out to be a good discussion is tied to the very fact raised as a criticism: these people often have a new book or exhibition to plug. But, as writers and artists, why wouldn’t they have something interesting to say?
Arguably the key guest for this episode’s theme, titled “Delusions of grandeur and freedom of speech”, was Fara Dabhoiwala, author of What Is Free Speech? The History of a Dangerous Idea. The discussion was interesting and informative, I felt, in showing (for instance) that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which is now so revered, was a dead letter for much of its history; and for showing that what we regard as the proper basis of free speech is very shifting and context dependent.
The other guests, Lionel Shriver and Grayson Perry, were sparky, as they reliably are.
Freedom of expression is obviously a topic that should concern all MAPs. I see that Prof. Dabhoiwala has also hosted a somewhat more directly relevant discussion on the BBC. This one is specifically about free speech as related to sex and pornography: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b0901c5h
>For someone who hates the BBC so much, Pup, you seem to spend a lot of time listening to it.
Worthily, cynically, MONITORING it’s unworthy smug industrialized fake ‘Public Service’ so called ‘journalism’. Of endless profiteering nit-picking, pinhead dancing dickheads. Wanting ever more ‘New’ questions, never conclusive (counter Anglo fake narrative) answers to long settled issues in plain-sight from Olde Wars to Young Love. And increasingly delivered by faux avuncular pimps, aunties and whores, actors in condescending, or ‘matey’ artizan tones. Peddling tabloid-esque trash to the shallow ignorant ‘MurDarkized’ mob-rule masses.
[MOD: etc, etc. deleted. Long rant heard many times before from Pup. But I suppose on this occasion I asked for it.]
I have thought a lot about paedophilia and I have also read a lot, and there is something that I cannot explain to myself. How is it possible that, despite all the evidence, society is still unable to grasp even the slightest grasp of the reality of things? How is it possible that in recent years there has been no significant progress, but quite the opposite: the situation is getting worse and worse? What is the point of explaining things clearly and publishing data and studies, if everything stays the same or gets worse? Why is no one banging on the table? How is it possible that, in the face of so much injustice, blindness and repression, there is not some kind of rebellion?
There is a social firewall in the form of SJW activists, media and politicians who drown out any neutral discourse. Despite the presence of a lot of data, it remains outside the information bubble, and any attempt to bring this data into the public space is suppressed by labeling it as “insulting sexual abuse victims” and “normalization of pedophilia”, which in ordinary people immediately evokes cognitive distortion related with the rape of children. Horrible images of crying children immediately appear in their imagination. The pressure of condemnation and persecution is such that even a simple listing of facts is considered by Wikipedia editors as “normalization” and removed, making the narrative one-sided.
The only way to try to break this is to build social connections and expand the community. In modern society, people do not want to read long boring texts, they prefer to listen to cheerful people who tell them this in a fun and interesting way, but YouTube also removes any videos on these topics.
I know that, and everything you say is very logical. What I don’t know is why this situation is maintained decade after decade, without significant advances of any kind. Why does nobody confront this status quo and defend the MAPs? Why don’t the MAPs defend themselves as would be expected? This is not an insignificant minority, although I don’t know percentages on the approximate number of MAPs it is clear that there is a significant percentage of MAPs among the population, enough so that there would be some kind of proportionally significant reaction. And the repression not only directly affects the MAPs, but also their families, their partners and their partners’ families.
I would find Tom O’Carroll’s opinion especially important, since by virtue of his age and background he knows the issue and the situation better than I do.
IMO, Confused, it’s a matter of being part of a bigger social movement that has its own reasons for backing you. The most spectacularly successful case in point in recent years (until overplaying its hand as described in two of my most recent blogs) has been that of the tiny transgender minority, which is massively outnumbered by MAPs. They have been able to surf the wave known as the gender revolution, with its built-in bias towards social elements that implicitly challenge the dominance of masculinity, as male-to-female transness certainly does; and even the female-to-male variety challenges the traditional gender roles associated with “patriarchy”.
A large part of their strength has been drawn from LGBT+, which itself grew synergistically in parallel with Second Wave Feminism in the 1970s and beyond.
In those early days, the BL movement (significantly, with GLs largely excluded or invisible, despite their potentially far greater numbers), expressed through NAMBLA, PIE and other organisations around the world, drew strength from alignment with the struggle for male gay liberation, which, as already noted, was part of a much broader gender trend.
A key part of that broad trend has been an ideological commitment to equality in sexual relationships, an emphasis that has always been implicit in the feminist belief that power will always be abused in social relations that are deemed unequal, with the relationship between adult and child being the ultimate example. Ever since a “paedophile” movement began to make itself visible, its perceived failure to pass the power/equality test has always been the big stick to beat it with.
That’s my short answer, which doesn’t get us onto what strategy, if any, might be available to get us out of this bind.
Attempts at longer answers have been made here from time to time, but the fact that you need to ask the question tells you that our efforts haven’t taken us far in practical terms. However, you might like to take a look at this blog of mine, which surveyed the scene in relatively recent years:
https://heretictoc.com/2021/10/13/what-do-we-see-through-a-glass-darkly/
Guest bloggers have also discussed the “Where do we go from here?” situation in several blogs:
A Gen Z vision of MAP anon strategy
Towards an alliance of the invalidated
Paraphiles and the Far Right
‘Age gap’ angst: Left must choose or lose
The history of PIE’s strategy is touched upon in the following two blogs, which take issue with the negative interpretation advanced by historian Nicholas Basannavar:
A trail across a bleak landscape of lies
Naïve idealists, not cynical hangers on
How the previously very promising 1980s scene in the Netherlands amazingly brought about favourable age-of-consent law reform in the 1990s is (if I remember rightly) discussed in another blog, along with how it all later fell apart:
Where prejudice legally trumps truth
Another thing that surprises me is the lack of identity awareness among MAPs, at least in the country where I live. I would say that very few MAPs are aware of belonging to an unjustly persecuted sexual minority. Many of them even assume the criminalizing and pathologizing narrative of society and see themselves as “sick”. Very few MAPs, I believe, see pedophilia as a sexual orientation in itself. And if MAPs themselves do not see themselves as a minority unfairly persecuted on the basis of an innate sexual orientation, it will be very difficult to evolve and change things.
This is one of the important issues. Many MAPs still don’t recognize their identity and do not know where or to whom to turn, while those who have accepted their identity are scattered across different countries and cities and can only interact with each other through forums.
Perhaps the mass implementation of WEB 3.0 will help save educational pro-MAP content from corporate censorship. Perhaps the new generation of young people who grew up in an atmosphere of acceptance of homosexuality and transgenderism will be more decisive in the fight to regain their autonomy and against ageism. Perhaps MAP politicians will one day want to end this witch hunt, just like gay politicians. Sooner or later this will inevitably happen.
The self-perception of MAPs as belonging to a sexual minority unjustly persecuted on the basis of their sexual orientation is fundamental and essential for any progress to be made.
The bad news is that identity politics is not trendy anymore, quite the opposite – and I am kind of sympathetic to that. I don’t think the narrative of pedophiles as an “oppressed minority” has any chance of succeeding in the near future, irrespective of how true it is. If any change happens, it will more likely be the result of a mainstream revolution. And for that to happen, we still need to go a bit farther to the absurd oppression of youth and sexuality before people realize and wake up. It might take generations… or WW3 to shake things up.
I don’t know why you say that identity politics is not trendy anymore, quite the opposite. It seems to have worked quite well for gays and transgender people, and it still does. At the moment, there is also a “paedophile identity”, completely false and out of touch with reality, built on sensationalist headlines, delusional laws and “experts” who know nothing. The only thing to do is to dismantle all the hoaxes that make up this false media identity, show the reality and make people see what a MAP really is. But I am not optimistic, quite the contrary. If it has not been achieved in the last fifty years, I doubt that it will be achieved in the next thousand.
50 years is too short a period to rethink deep-seated myths and prejudices. Too many MAPs are “disengaged”, outside the community, which slows down the formation of the subculture and the social focus shifts to a negative narrative of fears and prejudices. That’s why it’s important it is important that the MAP community constantly expands, preserves and passes on its heritage to the next generation. A sustainable community with its own subculture and ethics will sooner or later attract more researchers.
It must not necessarily be a linear process. Society is a complex system, and can go through sudden phase changes. While activism is logic and possibly successful in the long run, even an insignificant event taking place at the right moment could cause major unexpected shifts. I understand that this perspective may feel abstract or even unhelpful, but acknowledging this complexity allows for both hope and humility – recognizing that progress isn’t always predictable, yet still striving for positive change.
Europe loves paedophilia. The French intellectual class tried hard to legitimise paedophilia. The #1 key Anti influence is the United States of America. The US has a strong proto-Protestant Puritan tradition which despises sex with children, despite all the evidence. Catholic Europe would, ultimately, respect sex with children but the United States keeps them firmly under their thumb.
As for Great Britain, that kicked everything off with the Pall Mall Riots and the Pall Mall Act. That was a horrific disaster which drove genuine and disturbing abuse of children deep underground in society; so that safe sex with children was perversely banned but nasty abuse was tolerated under cloak and dagger.
It’s a sick arrangement. Children obviously love sex but the United States draws its civilisational energy from an extremely virulent strain of Puritanism. The world has no choice but to kowtow to that because the United States is in charge. Europe is under lock and key – Europe is almost fully subjugated, in fact.
It’s a sad reality. But it’s so fucking depressing I don’t really want to discuss it further.
Also, to influence the public opinion, you need heartwarming stories with sympathetic protagonists. Ideally, successful and generally liked or likeable people admitting their MAPness, challenging false perceptions. But it is a reputation suicide. People choose to keep this secret, to avoid all kinds of repercussions.
> The same applies to Teliophiles / non-MAPs. They don’t want the finger pointed at them, so they keep their private sympathies hidden…
I agree, this would be powerful. It’s a damned catch-22 situation.
Maggie McNeill, on her blog The Honest Courtesan, offers an important insight on how left-wing, sex-positive feminists can be marshaled to support the destruction of the various age of consent and child trafficking hysterias:
“In the authoritarian mind, for students to voluntarily allow other people to examine their genitalia for the purpose of pleasure is a ‘crime’, but for the same students to be forced by law to allow strangers to examine their genitalia for the purpose of bigotry is ‘protection’.”
The issue must always be approached from the anti-authoritarian perspective of advocating for the sexual rights of all young people under 18.
This argument can be tied to the 100% true fact that the sex laws hurt “children” more than the sex itself, by traumatizing them and encouraging them to betray someone close to them. This supersedes any argument about “developing brains” or whatever other jibberish, because the criminalization of sex hurts children more than the sex itself, regardless of the details.
If governments and grifters want to play the save the children game, they can be made to answer for the fact that they are hurting children with their own policies that are supposed to protect them. The more draconian the punishment for the “offender”, the more it hurts the “child” through the strict denial of the child’s sexual rights and re-framing as a poor victim. This point must be repeated ad nauseum because the mantra of the hysterics is everything must be done for “the best interest of the child.”
WAY mo’ Anglo Medievil populist modern HYSTERIA!
A 29-year-old man has been sentenced to 400 years in prison after being found guilty of sexually assaulting underage girls while they slept over at his home. Brandon Xiong was found guilty of sexually assaulting four girls between the ages of 5 and 10, according to the Sacramento County district attorney’s office. The victims were invited to sleepovers at Xiong’s home and, as they slept, were carried into a secluded part of the home where Xiong sexually assaulted them. One of the victims disclosed the abuse to her mother in October 2018, which led investigators to discover additional victims.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/got-400-prison-sentence-being-005922220.html
I knew americans were nuts, but they think people can live for 400 years? only greenland sharks can do that.
Wow he should have simply obtained a legal exemption (by executive order) from the State governor.
>Wow he should have simply obtained a legal exemption (by executive order) from the State governor.
Er, ‘simply’? Flip the script to say, ‘4 giggling AAM HOT Lolis brazenly FLASHED their sweet tight panties to the helpless benign MAP victim needing 400 years to recover.’
Recalls 1990s sofa seated ‘Love Magnet’ Bold MAP FLASHED by a jealous 4 yo grinning AAM HOT Loli lolling on the living room rug while opening wide and closing her slim bare legs to brazenly show her flowery panty crotch (aping her Dad’s SeXy tabloid Page 3 girls). Until patient bold MAP silently FLASHED a pursed kiss aimed at her panty hidden HOT clit-slit, at which the knowing HOT Loli ‘YELPED’ and ran to her bedroom to privately finger-finish her HOT clit-thrill with thoughts of ‘Love Magnet’ Bold MAP. While the HOT Loli’s blindside AAM HOT Loli cousin, 6, sat on ‘Love Magnet’ Bold MAP’s HOT Lap, innocently asked, “What’s wrong with her?”
There are more than 8,000 nerve endings in the tip of the clitoris alone – double the number of those in a penis. A clitoris is made up of 18 distinct parts – a mixture of erectile tissue, muscle and nerves. “All those little pieces are working together to create the amazing sensations that anyone with a clitoris feels when they’re having orgasms.” They can swell as much as 300% when engorged. Clitorises range from 7-12 cm in length and swell by 50 to 300% when engorged when aroused. It’s not “a zero to 100 situation”, says Wolf, but as you draw closer to orgasm, it increases in size.
And, brutal male beardy Muslims for power and control have for centuries known that HOT Lolis (HOTTER than HOT Laddies) from infancy can only be kept from natural HOT SeX by vile FGM permanent sexual BLOODY torture. Rightly made pan-EU illegal since 1985 and soon all but eliminated in caring mainland modern EU. But still largely unprosecuted with tens of thousands of Anglo UK victims HOT Lolis from age 4, in cold, callous, uncaring Anglo UK (& USA).
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/23/clitbait-10-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-clitoris
https://committees.parliament.uk/work/3200/female-genital-mutilation-inquiry/news/100646/ongoing-failure-to-tackle-national-scandal-of-female-genital-mutilation/
Wow, awesome Clit knowledge HHP! Thanks for my education 🙂
The Clit is obviously important from 0-99 or beyond (if one is of sound mind).
The Clit fascinates me, its only function seems to be pleasure. Lucky females!
Thanx Zen we’re all learning.
And, we wanna learn about simple seXecutive orders?
>Wow he should have simply obtained a legal exemption (by executive order) from the State governor??.
Mate away from the public gaze, State Governors can allow it, but it’s rare. Please don’t ask me how I found this out.
Leaving Neverland 2: Surviving Michael Jackson is an upcoming British made-for-television documentary film directed and produced by Dan Reed.
It premieres today on Britain’s Channel 4, March 18th, 9pm UK time.
I suspect this’ll be of some interest to you, Tom, considering you spent a large amount of time examining claims surrounding Michael Jackson’s emotional congruence with children, and possible sexual attraction to them.
Here’s the trailer via YouTube: https://youtu.be/ZJ_C466fJws?feature=shared
>I suspect this’ll be of some interest to you, Tom
Yes, but not much because it looks as though this one is largely going to be about the legal developments since the first film. The earlier claims will be reprised, but I doubt there will be much new. The first film was the big one — and it totally vindicated the line I took in my book, except that the boys have changed their tune now they are middle-aged adults who could win a fortune.
A sequel? Perhaps the studio was satisfied with the box office of the original film and they even have plans to create their own cinematic universe similar to “The Avengers” (sarcasm) 🙂
I would like to know if anyone else feels the same way as I do. It’s something that confuses me and makes me suffer a lot… In short, although I am only attracted to young men of my own sex and therefore I am homosexual by definition, I don’t like gays, I can’t stand them, I feel disgust if I see two men kissing, I feel disgust towards effeminate men and nowadays I absolutely refuse any dealings with him. I don’t feel part of them because they are very different from me and I feel that my sexuality has nothing to do with theirs. I don’t feel “homosexual” or “gay”, but at the same time I do, because the young people I am attracted to are of my sex. I dream of an ideal world in which “gay” and “boylove” would be recognised as distinct sexual orientations and thus have nothing to do with gay people. But the reality is what it is, so I am continually torn between thinking that I am not gay and that I am gay, and this indefiniteness torments me. There are times when I don’t feel gay at all and I feel very homophobic, and there are times when I think that maybe I’m wrong and maybe I’m one of them too.
It is difficult to explain in writing what I feel, I hope someone will understand me.
Yes, ConfusedMan, others do feel the way you do, including me, although the reasons may differ somewhat. My disgust these days tends to be focused on gay conformists who have been able to climb the ladder of liberation put in place for them by the radical gays of yesteryear but who have now kicked that ladder away so that MAPs cannot climb it after them. I have nothing but disgust and contempt for their treacherous condemnation of a fellow sexual minority suffering unjust oppression. They despicably seek to lessen their own oppression by increasing ours.
That said, I think it helps if we can understand that the things we consider disgusting are largely the product of our culture and early upbringing. Muslims and Jews brought up to believe that pork is an “unclean” meat, for instance, may feel disgust to the point of nausea at the thought of eating a bacon sandwich that others would think delicious. Those brought up as Vegans might have a similar reaction, although in their case disgust over eating any animals is often a learned feature of teenage or later life rather than just in childhood.
So, our feelings can change as a result of being exposed to new thinking, but there is no guarantee. Strong emotions can be hard to change.
I don’t think you need to worry about any inner “homophobia” though. Your strong aversion to effeminacy in men is a very common reflection of growing up in western cultures that have traditionally valued only so-called “real” men.
In my childhood, back in the 1950s, not even the beginnings of gay liberation were visible. Only one model of manhood was available. Accordingly, I grew up sharing your “homophobia”. My attraction towards young boys seemed to be nothing to do with gayness/effeminacy. As a young adult in my twenties, though, I came to appreciate the strength and value of radical gay activism in the 60s and 70s. Diversity in sexualities began to feel like a good thing.
My dislike is mainly motivated by the same reason: the disgusting betrayal of the gays to the MAPs. We are witnessing the worst witch-hunt against a sexual minority, thousands of homosexuals, adults and minors, are being massacred in a terribly unjust way all over the world, and gays do nothing to stop this horror. That disgusts me to the core.
In my youth, when I didn’t know everything I know now, I was supportive of the “LGBT movement” because I thought we were all in the same boat. I thought that one day they would evolve and end up defending us in some way. Now that I know what a betrayal they committed, I feel nothing but contempt.
They will keep adding letters to their stupid alphabet soup, but don’t expect them to one day add the P of the millions of homosexuals who are being slaughtered before their eyes.
That is the main reason for my dislike. But it is not the only one. I never really liked them, I never liked their way of life or their way of being. But I tolerated it with resignation and a lot of patience for a long time because I thought I belonged to “their side”. Now I don’t see it that way, so there is nothing to bind me to them anymore. Or maybe there is: homosexuality. But my homosexuality has nothing to do with theirs.
Also, I believe that effeminacy is much less widespread among paedophiles than among gays. I don’t know the exact causes, but I think it is.
I think you’re right but I cannot bring to mind any reliable research that has looked into exactly this question, so we’d need to infer clues from closely related studies.
Also, remember that “paedophiles” includes heterosexual GLs as well as homosexual BLs. Only among homosexual males has the range of attractions has ever been associated with effeminacy.
Just to check my main point, I asked AI. Copilot’s first answer was a lot of evasive bullshit on this “sensitive and controversial subject”. But after throttling it a bit, I got this:
“Research in the realm of psychology and psychiatry does not support a consistent association between effeminacy and paedophilia.”
I asked ChatGPT Plus the same question:
“Homosexuality in males has been associated with effeminacy. Is there research that indicates the same applies to paedophilia?”
The first, and most useful, sentence of the reply said:
“There is no credible research that directly links paedophilia to effeminacy or any particular gender expression.”
>I asked AI.
Off-topic: Far from perfect, but for future research, give https://consensus.app a try.
Thanks, David, I’ll look into this. Info about research tools that could be useful for on-topic research is very much an on-topic topic! 🙂
I would still like to point out something about effeminacy. Some of us don’t like effeminacy because we see it as an imposture. What is expected of a man is that he behaves according to his sex and not that he histrionically imitates the opposite. As a homosexual, I am attracted to virility, not a false and forced femininity. I simply like authentic things, not imitations.
Confused Man
Before I fully recognised my sexual feelings as a Map I always seemed to get on with children more than adults I didn’t fully pick up on it at the time but looking back it was always there, I was always very good with children in fact better with them than any other adult was and I know this due to spending so much time with my uncles children and other children that I had spent time with in the past I always connected with them on their level and they always connected with me on my level and maybe its because like many gay men connect with women so well because of their femininity (due to them understanding women better than straight men) Paedophiles understand children in the same way and that is why we connect with them so well, I have never been able to understand what women want but with children things just seem to come more naturally to me.
I always connected with them [children] on their level
> Psychologist call it “emotional congruence with children.”
I have just done a google search of what you have said “Emotional congruence with children is an exaggerated affective and cognitive affiliation with children that is posited to be involved in the initiation and maintenance of sexual offending against children and I can say that I had no intentions of any sexual offending (there where desires on an unconscious level maybe) and maybe I thought of a protentional legal relationship when they reached aoc in the future (I never held my breath on that i didnt read to much into it) but no sinister intentions like the google search suggests at all.
Historically, homosexuality in pre-industrial societies has mainly been of two types: paederasty, that is, intergenerational male bonding (especially in militaristic societies like Sparta or the Japanese samurai), and transgendered homosexuality (Hijra in South Asia, Faafafine in Samoa). Thus, many contemporary gays are effeminate because they are probably partially transgendered, while boy-lovers are not effeminate.
Re human sexuality I have always wondered why so are so many more male Maps compared to female Maps and does anyone here have any theories as to why that is?
One theory is that because female fetuses don’t go through the masculinisation process during which these “changes in sexuality” happen.
I don’t have an explanation off-hand, but you might find some answers in:
Pedophilia: Biosocial Dimensions (ed. by Jay R. Feierman, 1990), which features chapters by John Money, Paul Okami, Vern Bullough and others. Talks about primate/monkey behavior amongst other things…
There are probably many more women MAPs than publicly acknowledged; our society is blinded by the prejudice of “pure and motherly” women and “sex-obsessed” men. Non-reproductive sexual behaviours are generally more frequent among men than among women, for instance about 3% gays and 1% lesbians. From an evolutionary perspective, before monogamy was instituted, a minority of males was sufficient for reproduction, one male could make several females pregnant; so the remaining males would practice non-reproductive sexual behaviours.
Christian
There are probably many more women MAPs than publicly acknowledged;
You maybe onto something I suppose its a bit like for instance once upon a time the overwhelming majority of people on the Autistic Spectrum where men and very few females where as now we have more women than ever being diagnosed and one theory for this is because women and girls are better at masking their behavior than what boys and men are and as a guess they are also better at hiding their true sexual feelings. I don’t claim to be an expert but I guess its something to think about anyway.
Hm… I am hetero paedophile, and although not exactly disgusted, I don’t like any excessive presentation of adult female sexuality either. So, isn’t it just a natural reaction, when you are into kids?
Although it might be difficult to understand for us, teleiophiles don’t like excessive presentation of kids’ sexuality, too.
From F.B. ELVIS Fan – Lesley Joseph
These people are SICK ,, To marry a child ???
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1392860001884425
Though I’ve heard that his relationship with Priscilla wasn’t always happy / positive, plenty of relationships are far from ideal. Most do not have the added struggles and scrutiny that celebrity status can bring, and it’d be unfair for me to hold Elvis and Priscilla to 2020s relationship standards.
If they treated each other well (for the most part), loved each other, brought some joy and stability to each other’s lives, then that’s a wonderful thing.
Elvis was based. And the MAP community seems to love this song:
https://fstube.net/w/c9wFQE2GDLfhmV1QQuDRct
>These people are SICK ,, To marry a child ???
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1392860001884425
Lesley Joseph (via the link) was referring to centuries ongoing HOT Lolis some.forced to marry mature macho Muslim beardy men MAPs believing they are merely following their medieval MAP Prophet Muhammad.
Not forgetting tens of thousands of modern UK Muslim Lolis from age 5 life-scarred victim survivors aBused by gutless UK cops callous criminal neglect of the 1985 anti-FGM EU/UK law with only one UK conviction in 40 years, and just a 1-minute medical to prove or disprove a case. While caring non-Anglo mainland modern EU soon all but eliminated the vile bloody ritual.
FGM: Lack of convictions ‘a national scandal’
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37364079
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad
Positively euphoric pre-Tot HOT Lolis – HOTTER than pre-Tot HOT Laddies.
2013 dysphoric Anglo NEGATIVE Canadian Journal of Neurological Sciences, Jan et al draw attention to an intriguing paroxysmal motor phenomenon in infants labelled “gratification disorder,”
“infantile masturbation,” “self-stimulation in infancy” or variations thereof. Descriptions of the disorder dating back to Bakwin and earlier, are generally similar and stereotypical; the crucial role for home video recordings is highlighted by the example from Jan et al. Onset in most cases is under one year of age, often as early as one to five months, with the overwhelming majority being female.
During episodes, the lower limbs are stiff, often adducted, and there may be rubbing of the thighs; if
the infant is supine, rhythmic pelvic movements may occur; movements of the tongue, neck (twisting), and hands have also been reported. Irregular breathing, diaphoresis, grunting and other vocalisations are often associated. Infants may exhibit similar behavior in car seats, high chairs or on laps of caregivers, and young children may do so against objects such as dolls or chairs etc.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/715AF3045CE407D0E1C98380265B77EA/S0317167100014189a.pdf/gratification_masturbation_or_paroxysmal_hyperkinetic_motor_syndrome_of_infancy.pdf
>Descriptions of the disorder dating back to Bakwin and earlier, are generally similar and stereotypical; the crucial role for home video recordings is highlighted by the example from Jan et al.
Modern disordered Anglo Victorian ‘academics’ falsely demonize horny infants naturally masturbating, and also CRIMINALLY video them for so called ‘research’..
Next an Anglo Modern Witch Hunt to trace and retro-prosecute those CRIMINAL Anglo academic vid-makers?
Quote, SeXy ’70s giggling HOT Loli, 4, naturally fast humping on Bold MAP’s firm back, “I like doing ‘upsie-downsies’ on your back, it makes me feel all ‘iggerly skwiggerly’!!”
https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/state/2025/03/14/ai-generated-images-texas-legislature-senate-bill-20-criminalize-child-porn/82335584007/
[Currently being discussed online in relation to fears around anime / hentai being banned / criminalized.
This bill explicitly states “child” as being “under 18” years old, so they’re not even just targeting lolicon / shotacon, i.e. representations with at least some pre-pubescent features. Legislators know the law can’t target age in art, since the artists will just declare all characters to be over 18 and draw / animate what they want. Instead, they’ll target anything that “looks” under 18 years old, whatever that means!
Say goodbye to your busty, totally made-up highschool students that frequent hentai comics! Looks like an adult in every way, with breats bigger than her head but wearing a school uniform! Buzzzz! Banned! Go straight to horny jail (except it’s real jail)!
Legislators will justify themselves by saying they’re concerned that AI has gotten so good, that the difference between real and fake images becomes blurred. The viewer cannot tell or know if no real person was indeed involved in the image’s production. I’m not sure AI is that good, but say I concede it could well be, we’d still return to the classic “voodoo argument” of harm in child pron cases. I.e. the metaphysical, arguably non-existant “harm,” imputed in to looking at pixels on a screen. Like Voodoo, someone is supposed to be harmed by your action, even though they’re not there, may have no idea you’re thinking of them, or with AI might not even exist!
Let’s pray this bullshit gets pushed back on, and doesn’t get enacted and acted on more broadly. Artwork should not be criminalized…]
>Artwork should not be criminalized…
In the UK, unfortunately, it has been illegal since 2009. In the US they can at least appeal state law on federal First Amendment grounds.
An appeal against state law will be ignored because people have a propensity to prejudices which they place above the law or use the law to justify them. Approved slavery, prohibited interracial and same-sex marriages, etc. – All this was based on the law. And now there remains the last false taboo on understanding and accepting children’s sexuality.
I wonder if academics or NGOs have made any attempt to track the amount of people who are criminalized for artwork in the UK. It would be a topic of unparalleled importance for criminologists.
Since the classifications of “category A, B, etc.” to my knowledge don’t discriminate between fictional and non-fictional pornography, we the public have no idea what people are actually being convicted for.
To my knowledge, researcher about this topic is both highly sensitive and few and far between, with some past research going under the banner of “virtual child pornography.” An example would be Alisdair Gillespie at the UK’s Lancaster University, who as you may know, wrote about your legal case, dear Tom!
This issue is similar to what a commenter here wrote, about why many MAPs will stay living in the shadows: it isn’t just the stigma, fear, potential loneliness or being hate crimed, it’s also that the people who have some past experience of these phenomena do not want to risk being criminalized for it. This surely applies to researchers who’d want to research cartoon porn and it’s criminalization, where you’d have to act like you’d never seen lolicon / shotacon artwork whilst writing about it.
Patrick Galbraith (the academic dubbed “the lolicon guy”) survives because he lives in Japan. He also accepts the injunction to live the boomer life of academia: keeping a relatively low profile and sticking to in-person events, as opposed to going on massive internet talk shows as a public academic. Even then, some of his work is extremely “academic.” That is, jargon heavy and designed to keep the Orcs away.
He studied as a PhD under Anne Allison, author of “Permitted and Prohibited Desires,” which famously discussed eromanga in a fairly matter-of-fact way. But she has moved on, and now focuses on Japanese practices around death and mourning. It’s obvious to me that Galbraith has made many efforts to protect himself. IMO he has become more jargon heavy lately, because he recognizes the increased sensitivity and public obsession with these issues, and doesn’t want to become the next Karl Andersson international scandal…
All that is to say, we need better research but there are personal and professional barriers that, depending on your race, sex, and where you live, will be difficult to overcome. It’s no coincidence that two of the leading English-language researchers in the “eromanga” space, are women who started early on. Namely, Sharon Kinsella (Karl Andersson’s PhD supervisor), and Anne Allison. Other authors who’ve made significant contributions have either come from Japan (so no one in the West cares), or published outside of academia under pseudonyms. Much important research will probably be left to women, who’ll feel safer addressing such topics; “the future is female,” as the saying goes… :p
>Alisdair Gillespie… who as you may know, wrote about your legal case, dear Tom!
Well, one of my cases: unfortunately, there have been quite a few! Well spotted, though, Prue. He wrote about R. v. O’Carroll [2003] EWCA Crim 2338, in a 2009 article for Criminal Law and Justice Weekly on the legal standing of child nudity,
Complete and utter lunacy.
One of the last bastions of lunacy. The world has made huge strides in combating racism and other forms of discrimination, but there are always pushbacks and attempts to reinstate past social orders. Racism, for example, offers a sense of stability and easy classification; it simplifies people into moboliths and “in” or “out” groups.
There’s much to be done on many fronts. Pick your battles and do what you think is right. As the late, great, Tony Benn once said, “there’s no final victory, and no final defeat.”
Am I being stupid, or is it really necessary for a MAP to see prohibited minor genitalia when they masturbate.
Is it sexually necessary to achieve climax? Sorry to put it in the bluntest terms; however, this is obviously an important conversation.
Probably not to the first one, probably yes to the second.
But ykow, from my admittedly non-MAP perspective, it’s asking a lot to expect MAPs to not look at porn of their preferred stage of sexual maturity, when I as a Teilio can spend hours upon hours drowning in lawful pornography. If I didn’t have porn and I wasn’t able to even try to initiate sexual contact w/ people I’m into, I think I’d have gone crazy. Especially when I was younger and my hornyness was off-the-charts: sex and sexuality has been such a big part of my life and my identity, but then not everyone’s as sexually-inclined as me…
It must feel terribly unfair that I can have unfettered, free and easy access to porn featuring every trope and kink imaginable, simply because I’m predominantly attracted to more developed bodies, which happen to be over the magic age line of 18. It’s a huge cruelty for society to then turn round and say they’re prohibiting drawings, animation, and AI as well, in addition to pornography featuring real-life individuals (who may be dead and cannot thus be “re-victimized” by some unknown person’s gaze).
In that sense, I agree with philosopher Ole Martin Moen, that pedophiles ought to be respected and not shunned, for working within the enormous restrictions society has imposed on them. They are restrictions hitherto known only to bygone homosexuals or “sodomites” of old, who now bask in the glory of their Faustian “consenting adults in private” bargain.
But yes, if Instagram or some other lawful medium floats you boat, isn’t ruining your life or mental health, then more power to you.
Pornography (eg. Pornhub or Xvideos) is culturally abhorrent mind poison; I wouldn’t wish such a nasty mind fuck on any MAP. Instagram is such a gentle, beautiful, sexy and safe way to experience children. I easily climax just to the face of a little girl, never mind incredible bikini pics with delicious perfect thighs.
If a MAP genuinely can’t even climax to a child bikini picture, is he really a MAP? Maybe Zoo is his thing instead.
Seriously though, if you claim to be turned on by a child, but can only get off to brutalistic Class A’s, what does that say about you?
>what does that say about you?
That you are not as easily aroused and every sight of a child does not turn you to a jerking pervert? 😉
Yes I’m a jerking pervert but so what, are you judging me? I have a swollen foreskin at the moment and have to take time off; my next one is Saturday night.
>Yes I’m a jerking pervert but so what, are you judging me?
LOL! What did you expect, Zen, after your own highly provocative, morally judgmental post?
Judge not, lest ye be judged!
An indignant response was all but inevitable following your latest outburst of seemingly irrepressible holier-than-thou sentiment. It is a constant theme from you, which appears to stem from tension between your own sexuality and your conservative upbringing/beliefs.
It may help to take a closer look at these beliefs/moral claims. In your earlier post, you wrote: “if you claim to be turned on by a child, but can only get off to brutalistic Class A’s, what does that say about you?”
First off, we humans are indeed animals. In doing “what comes naturally” we are much like the “brutes” we are accustomed to disparage in such expressions as “We, unlike dumb brutes, can reflect upon our impulses”. Reflect we may, but attempts to “pray away the gay”, or whatever the “perversion” may be, do not have an impressive history of success. They tend to leave people conflicted, torn between lust and piety, as you appear to be.
Another useful lesson from gay history is the old activist slogan “Born this way”. Gay people do not choose homosexual attraction. It is not a “lifestyle choice”, despite the efforts of conservatives, especially religious ones, to give it the moral loading implied in the choices we can make between right and wrong.
Ditto paedophilic attraction, of course. Let’s not forget that. What we do may be a moral issue but what we desire is not.
But let’s, for a moment, take your claims at literally face value. Bizarrely, as evidence of your moral superiority to other MAPs, you wrote, “I easily climax just to the face of a little girl”.
So that shows that you truly appreciate their beauty, does it, unlike more beastly MAPs who might need to see their genitals, and maybe some explicit sexual action, before experiencing orgasmic sexual excitement? And because you better appreciate their beauty you hold them in higher regard, and are a more caring, loving person?
I see no reason to doubt that you have a profound wish to treat children respectfully, but a capacity to orgasm just to their faces is hardly evidence in support of this contention.
What would be thought of a parent making any such claim? Their kids would be “taken into care” before you could say “masturbation”! Our culture, to be sure, is itself overinfluenced by traditional Christian hostility towards the body, and often misguidedly equates sexual feelings with moral iniquity. But we do get some things right: most of us would think good parents are those who love their kids and do everything possible to see them thrive, regardless of their sexuality – the parents’ own, I mean, but also the kids’.
>… my next one is Saturday night.
TMI! 🙂
Tom, wow first of all thank you for this excellent post which has revealed my own pride to me and given me a better self-understanding. You have an impressive mind.
Yes, it was pride that made me think of myself as better than other MAPs. I realise now I am not.
I don’t mean to be morally judgemental, and it hurts my own self-conception that I might sound ‘preachy’ to others. I really don’t want to be like that.
Finally Tom, let me just say that (as you know) I absolutely adore little girls, but at the same time I accept that many MAPs have a more active sexual component in their appreciation of little girls, than perhaps I am conditioned for or used to. This in no way expresses any differential moral value – to think so would be arrogant and presumptuous.
I’m genuinely sorry if I came across that way. With your thoughtful response, you exposed my own error to me, so thank you for that.
This is a commendably honest appraisal and “mea culpa”, Zen. I am not sure I could manage anything so constructively self-critical. Well done! Glad you think my input was helpful.
>Yes I’m a jerking pervert but so what, are you judging me?
No, I am not judging you. I don’t care how people achieve their orgasms :). For me, it is either with my wife (the best), AI role playing (second best), or VR porn. No real children involved. Yet, I wouldn’t judge you for jerking over Instagram, or others for using “Class A” pornography. Just don’t hurt anybody, right?
David, I agree it doesn’t matter how people achieve their orgasms. I went through a dark phase and have a spent conviction for indecent images…anyway, yes, during that dark time, I saw Class A’s (sigh). They weren’t brutal at all, but actually gentle, but I still looked, and masturbated to them…it was kind of weirdly thrilling at the time to legally endanger myself, do you understand? At times I was physically shaking. This is dark, I know. I don’t mean to disturb you, David. Anyway, I saw gentle vaginal and even anal penetration of children (and of course blowjobs) – don’t worry, it’s ALL a spent conviction now. Do I ever want it to be legalised? Not really no, to be painfully honest, but I know many MAPs do, and I actually respect that. There, I’ve revealed some things, and probably said enough for now…
I was a bit confused when you said “Brutal Class A,” because as I understand it, class A can be brutal, but may also simply refer to pornography featuring intercourse.
So, thank you for clarifying that through your own experience. And, sorry to hear that you’ve had some serious hardships related to these issues. Not just your inner struggle but also external, legal ones. I hope for the best for you, and hope your life improves significantly.
BEST OF SONG-YI | Sister Leveling – FULL SEASON 2, by The Anime Boiis on YouTube.
This comes from a 1.6 million subs channel, and is going semi viral right now, covered by anime commentary communities. It’s an abridged version of a popular Korean-based anime called “Solo Leveling,” with this video focusing on a female highschool student who (like virtually every other woman in the series), has the hots for the main character.
In the actual series, the main character is practically asexual, he’s singularly focused on using his skills to find a cure for his mother’s chronic illness, which takes him into dangerous situations in this world of monster hunting.
In this abridged takepiss, the editors focus on this 16-year-old highschool student for comedic effect, in entertaining but very juvenile jokes about “Epstein,” “Diddy,” and having to look up the age of consent. He has a screen which appears to give him missions, but unlike the serious plot driving ones of the series, they’ve been replaced with the “jail,” “incest,” and “furry” storylines…
Just like the actual series, our hero never reciprocates any romantic / sexual interest. Except that here, he is rendered as rejecting a “minor” because “he’d rather die.”
I never thought I’d sound like an old boomer, saying I’m glad I’m not growing up nowadays, surrounded by all this toxic bullshit. But honestly, what a horrible message this sends. So negative, so bound up with fear. Is this what we want young people growing up in? Really?! Where’s the joy in fancying someone? How just seeing them lights up your day?
The Anti’s aren’t even hiding behind “rape” or other false labels to silence dissent anymore: the mere mention of age alone – “how old is she?!” – is enough to bring down the weight of taboo…
To paraphrase the feminist Kate Millet, the age taboo is all the more damaging since it undermines reason and mental confidence itself. Age apartheid is shot through with contradiction: young people are presented as full of desire and agency that the legal adult must reject and avoid, but also as wee innocent “children” incapable of sexual feeling. The taboo demands that you question what you know to be true, and tries to shame you into reframing it or silence.
Apparently, it’s so abnormal to fancy a 16-year-old highschool student, but having to look up the age of consent is common enough to land as a joke that resonates with an audience of hundreds of thousands…
All the girl’s seem to fancy our main character, including his sister, yet once he’s off-limits and said to be dating her friend, the sister says it’s “gross.” Apparently, it only becomes “gross” when she has to see someone else being happy. I’ve seen this jealousy in real-life (only in women, but I’m sure men can do it too).
If you abstract this abridged cartoons’ messaging to society more broadly, you’ll notice there’s a lot of bitter, jealous people. Obsessed with seeing hot young people around every corner, through a process of disavowal they voyeuristically legitimize their proximity to and gaze upon the sexualized subject.
James Kincaid was right…
But, are real people, and by that, I mean all of them when in the real world, outside of internet, buying that? I’ve seen my young nieces a bit surprised when one of my friends in his forties talked about a sexy 12yo he has seen on the bus, but only because “12yo?she couldn’t have breasts yet, did she?” I mean, I understand hesitation when it comes to children, but teens? It doesn’t make any sense.
No one explains to people that we are all inherently sexual and we find each other sexually attractive based on various traits such as facial features, body proportions, and the way we speak and etc. A person does not necessarily have to be naked or be of a strictly defined age by society. If he/she does not match personal preferences, then even being naked may not arouse any sexual desires.
It’s considered cringe online to say things lack “nuance,” but in these discussions, yes, discourse on most popular platforms lacks nuance. So, thanks for adding some here :p
>It’s considered cringe online to say things lack “nuance,”
Why? Seems there’s a whole universe of discourse I’m missing here. Or perhaps I should ask Where? Where online is it “considered cringe”?
When I wrote that, I had in mind a YouTube video from Leftist creator Badmouse, where he’s responding to a right-winger (Lauren Southern I think). She says the Left ignores the nuance around X subject, and Badmouse flares up “Le Nuance?! What the hell is that?!” (Very similar to the Simpsons, “Le grill?! What the hell is that?!”)
Though, that video would be super old in YouTube terms: not sure which one it is…
An overt challenge to critical thought, would be the widespread “actually” meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ackchyually-actually-guy
In broader online spaces, people will sometimes invoke this “heh, ackchyually” meme to de-legitimize your questioning / criticism. Calling you nerdy, basically. Implying that you’re nit-picking.
So it’s a crudely mocking defence against factual information, whether nuanced or not.
OK, got it. Thanks!
No, real people, generally speaking, recognize that 16-year-olds are very different to 6-year-olds. Most people will be able to remember their own teenage horniess, so it’s realistic, not shocking or odd, to see teenage characters presented as full of desire for love, sex, and connection / affection.
But the Boomers won’t live forever. People who grew up in, say, the 80s or before, who lived in a much more relaxed world around teenager’s sexuality. Next will be Millenials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha, who are all being bombarded by “age gap” and “pedo” discourse on the daily.
The youngest ones are growing up online at younger ages than ever before. They have far more exposure to negative discourses around “trauma,” “abuse,” and “predators,” but are not encouraged to critically assess what they’re seeing. (In fact, it is considered taboo and dangerous to criticize the dominant discourse…)
I have met soon-to-be-18-year-olds, who won’t ask anyone out if they’re over 18 “to protect them.” It’s not always a “predator” discourse: they quite nobly think they’re protecting older people from stigma and catching a charge, which may well be true!
Interesting. Both your point and your experience with young people, which is different from my own. Let’s hope the nature (and love) will win and those culture ignited fears will subside again .
I’m going to move out of my comfort zone here. Although it is clear that hysterical women (right and left) are the majority support behind the cruel and disingenuous “metoo” age of consent laws, we need feminists like the one below to get out of this hole:
https://www.instagram.com/houseofveracruz/reel/C_ozm7OvRoy/
That woman, although a feminist lesbian unconcerned with men’s sexuality (maybe even hostile to it), would still be 10000x more likely than a conservative man or woman to have a reasonable conversation why age of consent laws are a complete fallacy, and that positive sexuality is majority beneficial to youth, as opposed to draconian legal punishment and embarrassment for them and their partners. This is something that anyone who is not blinded by personal sexual issues can see, easily.
It is clear that no one cares about men’s sexuality, including other men. But there is far more support for young women’s sexuality, but only in the context of the grifters and the state, which are profiting hugely from making every woman a victim. However, the opportunity is there to support AAM girls, with the help of older lesbians like the one above. That woman would probably be willing to support the statement “young girls should have the compete freedom to choose their sex partners, regardless of age or gender, as long as steps are taken to protect their absolute right to consent.”
Has HereticTOC strayed into the partisan political, in decrying Musk and Trump? Can a MAP not support Musk and Trump now?
As far as I am concerned, neither man is marked by Puritanism, but rather a kind of Bismarckian realpolitik. Even Trump doesn’t hate the MAP agenda for its own sake; but he simply must please a traditionalist base – meanwhile Elon cares far more about rockets and Mars.
You even have a dig at Zuckerberg – everyone knows Zuck revolutionised child bikini pictures, which are extremely MAP friendly, and completely legal.
Finally, while I get the trans – MAP alliance, let us not bend over backwards to say it is right that children should be persuaded into sex changes: I support drag, I support queer, I support queens, I have nothing against them…but the sanitising of gender dysphoria into a kind of lifestyle adventure is clearly very wrong and irresponsible.
>Has HereticTOC strayed into the partisan political, in decrying Musk and Trump? Can a MAP not support Musk and Trump now?
No straying, Zen. The danger these people pose, including vicious Vance and shape-shifting Zuckerberg, is too great to be ignored or glossed over.
Can a MAP not support Musk and Trump now? Yes, they can, and as long as posts are MAP relevant I continue to welcome their input here, including favourable comment on the current US administration. My hope is that comments from other readers will encourage them towards intelligent questioning of their faith in Trump et al.
Tom, I completely agree Trump appears socially right wing on key issues including MAPs, albeit out of necessity to his base.
This is no reason to hate on Trump and Musk: we must simply be wary of their pragmatic inclinations.
I was having a pub lunch today, and the little girls were so friendly and gentle. I think that, in any intelligent society, we make allowances that there can be mutual feelings between little girls and men. Whilst as men we don’t seek to exploit that, we can at least gently explore the curiosity of these little girls, and welcome their friendly social interaction; forging bonds in our local community. Don’t you agree?
They want to kill “paedos”.
“In April 2023, the Florida Legislature passed a bill allowing the death penalty for sexual battery of a child under the age of 12, after the urging of Governor Ron DeSantis in January 2023.”
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/background/crimes-punishable-by-death/death-penalty-for-child-sexual-abuse-that-does-not-result-in-death
And they put the law into practice:
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/florida-prosecutors-seek-first-death-sentence-under-new-child-sex-abuse-law
Sexual battery surely means a forcible rape? Horrifying for any child to experience. A gentle exploration of their sexuality, whilst illegal under US code, would surely not warrant the death penalty.
>Sexual battery surely means a forcible rape?
No, it does not. “Battery” in both US and UK law is a misleading term. In the context of a sexual offence against a child, it may mean no more than touching, even if the child was willing. Likewise, as is more widely known, there is an offence known as “statutory rape”, meaning that a rape charge has been made even though, in the case of older minors, it is acknowledged that the minor had given de facto consent.
In ordinary usage, if you give someone a battering it means you have beaten them up, with the implication of bruising at the very least and possibly much worse injury.
So, the use of both of these terms, “battery” and “rape”, in news reports is often very misleading, making cases seem much worse than they are.
That said, I imagine the Florida case was among the more serious ones. But we cannot be sure of that based just on the links given. No details of the case are given. All we are told is that a statement from the office of State Attorney William Gladson said the decision reflects the “severity of the crime and its impact on the community”. Also, the child was under 12.
This may be of interest:
https://www.narsol.org/2024/02/death-penalty-legislation-is-not-about-the-death-penalty/
https://www.narsol.org/2024/12/the-case-against-capital-punishment-for-child-sex-abuse/
Yes, Sugarboy, very interesting and important! MAPs need to know about NARSOL and its excellent awareness campaign, well exemplified in these articles.
My worry, though, is that American democratic politics might now be past paying attention to NARSOL’s voice of reason. Populist extremism could be heading for a point of no return. One of the articles is headed “Death penalty legislation is not about the death penalty”, with the implication that capital punishment proposals are just about cranking up stigma against MAPs rather than actually putting us to death.
While that may be correct for the moment, I don’t see how anyone can be confident as regards the longer-term direction of travel.
No offence, Zen, but no, just no… Legal codes, when it comes to non-normative and stigmatized sexual practices, are typically loaded with emotive and moral language. This tends to obscure the reality of the sexual behavior in question. “Rape” and “sexual assualt” (for example), are labels routinely applied to mutual and non-violent experiences which have trasgressed age of consent statutes. confusing the whole issue and the public alike.
Homosexual sex was once referred to as “indecency,” and such legal language still exists in places like the UK, where instead of “child” or “teen pornography” they say “indecent images.”
It’s one of the reasons I’m so skeptical of news reports about “rape” and “sex assault.” Sometimes, the media will go wild and say “sex attack,” which is usually code for sexual contact involving under 12s. The problem, of course, is that instead of saying “X masturbated Y behind the bike shed,” we get “X indecently assaulted Y”. This is vague as hell, sounding like a man morphed into a tiger (a “predator” as the linguo goes), and pounced upon an unsuspecting, small child. This is thankfully very rare, meaning that most of the time the media’s use of terms like these do not fairly represent the sexual offences in question.
“Sexual battery” is the same. It could refer to violent sexual behavior, but as this is rare it will much more likely refer to any sexual contact with a young child.
To reasonable people, yes, mutual sexual experiences without force, especially if the youngster testifies positively, would not be rendered as “sexual battery.” But legal codes are not so reasonable…
Mutually willing sexual contact when it involves minors, morphs into “rape” and “sexual assualt.” That’s the current dominant discourse, and a huge contributing factor in the demonization of MAPs, as many people won’t make any attempt to think past the negative labels…
Indeed, the law and media work hand in glove to simply disregard facts and lie about sex crimes, and no one accused of such crimes has the gumption to sue for defamation for example. I would think that at least one person accused of such crimes would do so, but the fact is, the airing of dirty laundry in Anglo court makes everyone embarrassed because everyone is sexually repressed, which makes juries and judges hesitant to listen because no one is an adult about sex, everyone has hang-ups and extreme personal emotions about sex that make it impossible to be objective, and quick to condemn. Not to mention the laws are written to disallow any sort of defense that attacks the legitimacy of the laws themselves (it’s very hard to get a jury nullification argument past a judge). It’s the biggest witch hunt in human history, right in front of us, and nobody seems to notice or care.
People talk about freedom and free speech and all these lofty ideals, and completely ignore the obvious, open, and extreme persecution of youth sexuality, those who participate in it, and indeed, anyone who would even dare to discuss it is immediately censored from all popular discourse. It’s complete lunacy, society cannot function normally in this manner.
>They want to kill “paedos”. “In April 2023, the Florida Legislature passed a bill allowing the death penalty for sexual battery of a child under the age of 12, after the urging of Governor Ron DeSantis in January 2023.”
Retard Far Right populist Anglo Ron follows the fake witch hunt of retard Far Right populist Anglo (Child Abuser) Musk’s grooming-gangs fake panic.
20 years after the 2005 Anglo BBC spoof show ‘Paedo Finder General’ and 3 decades after the retard Anglo fake Satanic panics. (17th Century Salem were fucking AMATEURS!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaUkt59vY1Q
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic
Damn The Children When The Devil Must Be Found: ‘And still all over Europe stood the horrible nurses Itching to boil their children. Only his verses perhaps could stop them.’ I THOUGHT of those lines last Monday night, as I watched Panorama’s television account of the Orkney ‘Satanic abuse’ scandal. They come from W H Auden’s poem ‘Voltaire at Ferney’, which is about the defence of humanity against superstitious madness. Panorama played an audiotape: a six- year-old girl screaming tearful denials to three adult interrogators. ‘He did so put his dickie in your fanny’ they insisted. She screamed again.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/damn-the-children-when-the-devil-must-be-found-1563398.html
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>Has HereticTOC strayed into the partisan political, in decrying Musk and Trump? Can a MAP not support Musk and Trump now?
Does every decrying need to be “partisan political”? I don’t like this duo, or rather… some of their actions and their arrogant style, but it doesn’t mean I’d be cheering up for Biden or Kamala.
Looking back at just a couple of last blog posts here, I think it is very clear Tom cannot care less about partisan politics. I wish more people are capable of thinking this way, critically, practicing some level of skepticism even towards their preferred leaders.
That is fair enough David. I will admit I am a more trusting sort. I am actually on Universal Credit – I kind of rely on the government in a big way. They have given so much to me. I am, as of about 3 months ago, a card carrying Labour member (this is somewhat contradictory, as my past voting record was very Conservative). I love Reeves’ fiscal plan. Anyway, my point is that I cannot speak for any American, and I get the frustration with anti-MAP governmental bias. However, we are still granted a fairly free society in which to pursue our social relations: even if explicit sexual words and acts are prohibited between adults and children.
Sorry to hear about your struggles, Zen. I hope you are better off soon!