Apple bites man from the government

Prolific Heretic TOC contributor Dissident steps up from the Comments column today to the top of the page, with Part 1 of a two-part guest blog on the related topics of state security, fear-mongering and the Dark Net. His piece was submitted on the eve of the Paris terrorist attacks. Although these awful events thus go unmentioned, there is no need to be deflected by them. Dissident’s piece is about baseless, irrational fears, rather than entirely well-founded ones about jihadist fanatics. For more about Dissident, who has a substantial body of published work to his name, see my introduction to his guest blog in January this year, At last, the paedophile as hero!
 

SECURITY AND FEAR-MONGERING LEAD TO DARK PLACES

  1. Privacy Vs. Security: A Surprising Turn in the Never-Ending War…

I’m sure most of us in the Kind community are by now aware that various government agencies in the U.S., particularly the Department of Justice, are heavily resisting the new encryption technology that Apple – along with rival companies, like Google and Microsoft – is using for iPhones and other communication devices. And interestingly, not to mention surprisingly, Apple politely told the DoJ to take a hike when the latter demanded the company surrender records of text messages sent by suspects of something or other who utilized Apple’s encrypted iMessage system. Of equal interest, as explained in a good New York Times article, is a similar battle the DoJ is having with Microsoft over the company’s refusal to comply with a warrant to turn over private e-mail correspondence from a user who was a suspected drug trafficker:

The conflicts with Apple and Microsoft reflect heightened corporate resistance, in the post-Edward J. Snowden era, by American technology companies intent on demonstrating that they are trying to protect customer information. “It’s become all wrapped up in Snowden and privacy issues,” said George J. Terwilliger III, a lawyer who represents technology companies and as a Justice Department official two decades ago faced the challenge of how to wiretap phone networks that were becoming more digital.

Wow! Think about this for a minute. Big companies like Microsoft and Apple foregoing public brownie points by putting the privacy of its users above that of the state’s demands? That may be the most surprising recent political event since Jeremy Corbyn’s election victory with Britain’s Labour Party! Or the announcement of Pee-wee Herman returning to the screen following Paul Reuben’s long-ago bust for indecent self-touching in an X-rated theater, take your pick!
That certainly hasn’t been the trend for the past two decades, with tech companies publicly vowing to fully cooperate with the state whenever they declare their war on something. Could it be that good P.R. with the state may now be taking a back seat to protecting the privacy of tech customers in accordance with civil rights legislation and/or principles? Stranger things have happened, after all.
As noted in this NYT piece by Nicole Perlroth, the summer of 2015 found a group comprised of 14 of the world’s top computer scientists and cryptography experts uniting to oppose the American and British governments’ unprecedented degree of surveillance-oriented hacking into corporate data centers over the past decade. This, too, is due to a major backlash in the era of post-Snowden revelations that are now causing civil rights activists, computer technologists, and even the state’s usual comfy bedfellows and beneficiaries – the big corporations, albeit specifically those that deal with private communications – to overcome their reluctance to challenge actions claimed as vital for combating terrorists and other miscreants.
Usually, it pays for big corporations to cooperate openly and proudly with the agencies of the state which they have empowered to protect their hegemony over our class-divided society, but it’s always interesting when major conflicts of interest between society’s two separate ruling branches arise like this. It makes things crystal clear as to which of the two ruling class branches is the real boss in society, and a true spectacle is guaranteed during the rare occasions when such conflicts happen to work for, rather than against, the interests of common people and consumer interests. So let’s enjoy this while we can and take a closer look at what’s happening here, and how it relates to us Kind folk.

  1. To Snow on Security’s Parade

As Perloth wrote:

After Edward J. Snowden’s revelations – with security breaches and awareness of nation-state surveillance at a record high and data moving online at breakneck speeds – encryption has emerged as a major issue in the debate over privacy rights. That has put Silicon Valley at the center of a tug of war. Technology companies including Apple, Microsoft and Google have been moving to encrypt more of their corporate and customer data after learning that the National Security Agency and its counterparts were siphoning off digital communications and hacking into corporate data centers.

And then, there is this: “Yet law enforcement and intelligence agency leaders argue that such efforts thwart their ability to monitor kidnappers, terrorists and other adversaries. In Britain, Prime Minister David Cameron threatened to ban encrypted messages altogether.” Is this surprising to anyone with a modicum of political knowledge? Do online videos frequently have annoying buffering glitches? Do bears shit in the woods? Do yellowjackets enjoy inviting themselves to your outside summer family barbecues? I think you get the gist. And the relevance of all this to the Kind community? Read on!

  1. Beware The Dark Net

All the usual hysterical nonsense, lies, and exaggerations about Kind-related issues are being used to claim that encryption and any privacy-granting technology – or any privacy at all, actually – must be nobly given up in the interest of protecting children from the prevailing cultural bogeyman.
The newest mysterious threat to arise in relation to that is the Dark Net, which refers to many difficult-to-locate sites on the internet hidden beneath layers of onions (i.e., encryption technology, often accessible only by surfers who use Tor). The Dark Net, something which relatively few surfers navigate, has become the new demonic darling of the technophobes’ eroticized nightmares. It allegedly hosts any number of sites that cater to numerous forms of human debauchery… everything from drug trafficking sales, to hit lists for people its users want “rubbed out,” to all the oft-heard claims of sites that traffic in child torture (now often referred to as “hurtcore”). The latter allegedly features an endless selection of pics and vids of children or adolescents who have been kidnapped and subjected to horrific forms of brutality, all to cater to the alleged legions of “pedophiles” who are said to thrive on such depraved sadism.
It’s the old Satanic ritualist-cum-child-snuff-addict re-dressed in technophobic clothing for the digital age. It amazes me that so few people both within and outside the Kind community have yet to identify it as such. Yet all of this should seem quite familiar to anyone who has carefully watched cultural trends during both the past 35 years of the current hysteria, and all previous moral panics throughout history.

  1. I’m Gonna Bogeyman, Bogeyman On Down the Roa-oad…

Predictably, at least one reader, likely a member of the Kind community, will attack this post along these lines: “Everything they say about the Dark Net is real! I can’t talk about it in detail here because of the rules, but I’m telling you, I’ve been there, I’ve seen it! So I don’t understand why you’re saying this type of shit, Dissident, when you don’t know!”
Oh, puh-lease! Reality check: Where have we heard this type of thing before? And how many times?
Are these respondents liars? No, they are resplendent drama queens, caught up in the aesthetic excitement offered by notions of the macabre and terrifying. Let’s examine the history of this prolific trend over just the past few decades alone.
Such claims always seem to carry a variant of the familiar bogeyman archetype, whether it be in a religious or fully secular guise. These stories show that people in our alienated, consumer-focused, heavily competitive society have a deep-seated need to believe in things like the Dark Net. The idea of a Hell after death has been superseded by imagining a real Hell on Earth.
This particular Hell and those shadowy figures said to rule it (no reports of horns or clown masks as yet) are designed specifically for the digital age, replacing the underground tunnels said to lie beneath the McMartin pre-school, where terrifying evil allegedly lurked. And no matter what guise this evil took, it usually situated the greatest threat to children (and underagers in general) outside the “safe” confines of the nuclear family home. And more specifically, this cultural trope is embodied in the idea of adult sadists who get a perverse sexual pleasure out of torturing and brutalizing children, evil-doers who seek to share that brutality with the allegedly countless other members of their demonic ilk. And allegedly making millions of dollars on an international level to continue financing the creation of this nightmarish form of erotically-overtoned entertainment to such depraved legions. And always staying one step ahead of the police, who mysteriously never seem able to account for the innumerable horribly mutilated and/or murdered bodies of young people that one would logically expect to pile up from such a sought-after hobby of global scope. And whose families mysteriously never come to the public for support and help in finding their purloined children (are we to believe each and every one of what must be a multitude of such families are too “scared” or “ashamed” to come forth?).
Even if these kids were covertly brought someplace, tortured horrifically, and then returned “safely” home under the neighborhood’s radar (as if none of these residences had their equivalent of Gladys Kravitz), one would think that parents and teachers would notice the plethora of cigarette burns, rack-torn muscles, sliced flesh, and severed tongues. But apparently we’re to believe that these Dark Net torturers can teach Michael Myers a thing or two about supernatural stealth, physics-defying logistics, and making a Houdiniesque art form out of covering their tracks to escape the authorities and resume their mayhem for throngs of eagerly awaiting audiences across the globe.
This sounds similar to the claims of “child torture sites” that so many people, Kinds and otherwise, of the supposedly noble variety, would claim to just stumble upon early in the previous decade before the Dark Net had caught the public’s fascination. No evidence was ever provided (“I obviously can’t link the sites here for legal reasons, dude! We have to save these kids!”). And most tellingly, if the pics and vids depicted real instances of horrible torture caught on camera, as opposed to just young-looking actors taking the role to cater to “extreme” interests of individuals who weren’t actually so ghastly evil as to insist upon the real deal only, no explanation could be provided for the lack of bodies, understandably emotional families coming to the public, or anything more ephemeral than the knife-wielding murderers dressed like clowns who apparently infiltrated America’s day care centers during the 1980s, and who allegedly filled the nearby grounds with the bones of numerous slain infants and toddlers.
Any horrifying imagery out there would likely turn out on inspection (but fantasy is preferred to scrutiny) to have been the result of young-looking thespians playing a role, aided by convincing but not-difficult-to-acquire special effects. This would mirror the numerous claims of snuff films in the 1980s. Countless people swore they had seen them, but no evidence was provided to substantiate that an ongoing international business of such a nature was routinely racking up bodies, adult or otherwise.
Nevertheless, such fantasies, from Snuff to Hurtcore, continue to fascinate and horrify the public, because they are fueled by two very potent and symbiotic forces: people’s need and willingness to believe the worst, and the benefit government agencies derive in pandering to this need. More in Part Two.
 

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Cyril

a new study of CP share in TOR has revealed (I don’t know how) that “although only 3.4 % of the members were communicatively active, the vast majority of 93.6 % of members downloaded (online child sexual exploitation) material”:

[…] Apple bites man from the government […]

A.

With regard to your fourth section: there are some striking similarities between this present form of hysteria and the “blood libel”, the old belief that Jews kidnapped and murdered Christian children for their blood. The Wikipedia article is long and very informative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel For more on this, I recommend David Kertzer’s book The Popes Against the Jews.
I also highly recommend the paper Internet-Initiated Sex Crimes Against Minors, by Janis Wolak, David Finkelhor and Kimberly Mitchell: http://www.bhedges.com/ftp/research/internet_predator/Internet%20initiated%20sex%20crimes.pdf
For those without time to read the whole thing, this is from the abstract with additions by me: “Victims in these crimes were primarily 13- through 15-year-old teenage girls (75%) [none was younger than 12] who met adult offenders (76% older than 25) in Internet chat rooms. Most [79%] offenders did not deceive victims about the fact that they were adults who were interested in sexual relationships [though a total of 52% were deceptive to some extent, mostly by lying about their age and/or appearance and/or falsely professing love]. Most [73%] victims met and had sex [1% noncontact, 3% fondling only, 18% oral sex only, 73% penis-in-vagina or penis-in-anus] with the adults on more than one occasion. Half of the victims were described as being in love with or feeling close bonds with the offenders. Almost all cases with male victims involved male offenders [there were 2 female offenders out of a total of 129]. Offenders used violence in 5% of the episodes [and coercion in 16%].” Also, pairs were most often in contact for 1-6 months and 79% talked on the phone. During online chats, 10% of the adults showed the kids adult porn and 9% showed them child porn. 52% of the kids travelled less than 10 miles to meet the adults, while 41% of the adults travelled more than 50 miles, and 46% of first meetings were in a public place. During meetings, 21% of the adults took sexy photos of the kids, 23% showed them adult porn, 15% showed them child porn and 40% offered or gave them drugs or alcohol. 81% of the kids in question were white and 61% lived with both biological parents, at least 30% in families making more than $50,000 a year. 13% of the pairs met at a “sexually-oriented online site”, which suggests that the kids in question were out looking for sex. It’s not totally rosy, but it’s not a litany of horrors either.
Adults get very, very worried about kids’ online relationships, sometimes with good reason. You can’t, after all, be sure who someone is online, and if a sexy photo gets out, the consequences can be terrible: teenaged girls have committed suicide over the resultant bullying. But sometimes, it seems, online relationships and cybersex can offer a safe, at-a-distance introduction to sex, with the great perk of having zero pregnancy or STI risk. One woman writes: “At 13 I dated an 18-year-old. Nothing happened except kissing and some mild groping. After that guy I was messaging a boy who was in my class at school. The lot: pictures, texts, hours of MSN conversation. If anyone had found it, it would have looked awful. BUT, we didn’t do anything until I was 16. What we did do was kind of exploring sex in a safe-ish way. We used to have phone conversations — not getting explicit, but he helped me discover my own body over the phone and I vividly remember a 2-hour phone call in the bath and I had an orgasm. I wasn’t ready for sex but I was ready for that. For me it was just fantasy, and for him too. Although it’s 13 years later now and I’m still sleeping with him!”

A.

I should add that while the relationships with the drugs and alcohol and deceit and clandestine meetings look a bit worrisome on paper, it seems perfectly possible for kids to bounce through such experiences suffering no harm at all. Another story I found, from a mother: “Our 13-year-old daughter — from a happy, loving, highly-educated family, doing well at school, played clarinet, played hockey for the district — started skipping school to see her 21-year-old boyfriend. He gave her drugs and alcohol and of course had sex with her. Also gave her advice on how to abscond from home at 2 am, etc., etc. He was charged for it. Got off though as our daughter would not admit having sex with him. Didn’t stop him or her that time, or the second time, though. He eventually dumped her for his cousin, who has now had his baby. His new girlfriend is 14 and two years below our daughter in school. The family are ‘known’ to the police, unsurprisingly. Our daughter is fine, off to university next year. She looks back on that time with bemusement and a lot of ‘WTF was I THINKING????’ ”
Of course, a kid without this girl’s advantages might not have come through such experiences unscathed. But that’s a systemic social problem, not the fault of individual older boy- or girlfriends, however irresponsible some of them may be.

Christian

Frankly, for a paedophile to kill children is as absurd as for a bibliophile to burn books. For me it is obvious that accusations of “paedophiles murdering children” is just a replay of the old antisemitic blood libel, and the Dutroux affair in Belgium helped revive the old stereotype. I contend that all clichés about paedophiles are a recycling of those against gays, Jews and ethnic minorities (like Roma, who are accused of “child trafficking”).
For the conversion of homophobic clichés into paedophobic ones, see Elise Chenier in Sexuality & Culture (2012) 16:172–186 (DOI 10.1007/s12119-011-9116-z).
Now for Jews, if you do an internet search about “jews & …”, you will find lots of antisemite propaganda explaining that Jews imported all sexual perversions from their exile in Babylon, that the Talmud allows marriage with a 4-y-o girl, etc. If you look at troll comments on Internet, it mixes Jews, “new world order” conspiracy, and paedophilia.
A classic is Der Giftpilz, the 1938 nazi antisemite children’s book (http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/thumb.htm); see in particular the 9th entry (http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/story9.htm) and its illustration (http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/images/giftpilz/scan9.jpg), and you will know the origin of the stereotype of “the dirty old man with a worn trenchcoat who gives sweets to kids”.
Lewis Carroll and James Matthew Barrie have also been subjected to blood libel, see https://agapeta.wordpress.com/2015/02/20/no-good-work-of-love-goes-unrewarded-with-blood-libel/ in my blog.

A.

Fascinating stuff. Thank you very much.
“…for a paedophile to kill children is as absurd as for a bibliophile to burn books” — sure, if you take paedophile as meaning someone who loves children, in whatever way you define love. Most people attracted to children are also emotionally fond of them, often in a deeply tender, nurturing, protective way, and those who are attracted to children sexually but not emotionally are mostly ordinary decent people who would not dream of hurting a child. It is, however, true that recent history’s three most prolific known serial killers were all attracted to children: Luis Garavito, who raped, tortured and murdered boys 6-16, almost always 8-13; Pedro López, who raped and murdered girls 8-12; and Daniel Camargo, who raped and murdered mainly girls around 9-12. But there’s another similarity here too: all three were Colombian and operated mainly in Colombia. It would be ridiculous to claim that Colombians have a child-murdering tendency. Rather, the probable reason these three killed so many is that Colombia, and Ecuador and Peru where some of the killings also took place, don’t have a strong infrastructure and are full of street kids who are nobody’s responsibility in particular, and of poor kids who have homes but are looking for work, candy, money…Likewise, that these three all targeted children probably did contribute to their high victim count, but simply because children are easier than adults to deceive and trick and to overpower physically, not because paedophiles are disproportionately murderous or any nonsense like that.

Dissident

Thank you to both Christian and A for all of this fascinating info!
And yes, I totally agree that the current scare with the Dark Net, and the whole lot of snuff film and Satanic ritual allegations that have permeated the hysteria of the current moral panic over the past 30+ years, are indeed modern versions of the “Blood Libel” Paradigm. The claims remain largely the same; only the players and landscape where these horrors allegedly occur (never with any substantive evidence) change in accordance with the times. In the modern incarnation of this paradigm, Kind people have now taken the place of the Jews as the alleged perpetrators; while insular pre-school facilities, and more recently the “darker” regions within the expansive labyrinths of cyberspace, have taken the place of the mysterious and (yes) expansive wilderness areas described in classic stories like Young Goodman Brown or Little Red Riding Hood. The modern media “pedophile” has filled the role of Goodman Brown’s serpent staff-carrying Devil and Little Red’s anthropomorphic Wolf in the popular zeitgeist.

A.

On a vaguely related note, I was just reading this article by Eric Tazelaar: http://www.nambla.org/etan_patz.html I thought of Fritz Lang’s 1931 film M., about a man who murders little girls, based on a real case. Lang said in 1937 that he made the film “to warn mothers about neglecting children” and it ends with a scene of grieving mothers and a heartfelt plea to “keep closer watch over the children”. (The film is on YouTube with English subtitles.) But it didn’t take; kids kept playing out by themselves. One imagines that what with the Nazis — Lang emigrated — and the war, people had other things on their minds. Likewise, Roberto Rossellini’s Germany Year Zero (1948) uses a ‘creepy’ BL teacher as a symbol of Nazi ideology and the moral corruption it caused. Many of these ideas are not all that new, it’s just that more recently conditions have been right for them to take root and spread.

ethane72

I read somewhere that what’s really fueling Apple and Google’s rebellion against government backdoors is their international markets. China would like such a back door too, and they can’t very well offer it to the US and not to China? What’s more, if some big company based in a country where there are no such laws can offer something without the government back door, then they have a big selling point over Apple or Google in the international market.

A.

Here is the estimable Ben Goldacre on why spying in this way actually doesn’t work: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/28/surveillance-ben-goldacre Plus another I thought you’d like, D., about smart kids spotting nonsense: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/may/28/bad-science-goldacre-brain-gym
Did anyone hear about the UK’s latest porn restrictions? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/a-long-list-of-sex-acts-just-got-banned-in-uk-porn-9897174.html
Some of the bans, though they anger me — physical or verbal abuse or “abuse”, *regardless if consensual*, FFS consent is the whole point — I can understand the reasons behind. Others seem a bit murky: role-playing as non-adults? What about a twenty-eight-year-old role-playing as an eighteen-year-old who’s still in school and still has to wear school uniform? Does she have to announce in some part of the video that she’s pretending to be eighteen, not seventeen? “Aggressive whipping”? What might non-aggressive whipping look like? By others I am sincerely baffled. Ban face-sitting, but not the quite violent, on the part of the receiver, blowjobs that are now so prevalent in porn, because clearly children are going to be worse harmed by seeing face-sitting than by seeing a choky blowjob? Ban showing female ejaculation? Straining to think of a reason for this, I recall that many teenage boys and young men seize on the female ejaculation they see in porn because it’s something that reminds them of their own bodily responses and thus is easy for them to understand, and so they really, really want to “make” their girlfriends “squirt” because they are convinced, mistakenly, that this means their girlfriends have orgasmed a whole lot. And some of course think it’s an amusing circus trick. In any case, lots of disappointment, irritation and feelings of failure all around when it doesn’t happen, as it usually won’t. But 1.) those are stupid reasons to ban showing it and 2.) despite the “safeguard children” bit, I highly doubt that this is why it was banned anyway.
Urination may be shown, but not if the urine goes onto another person or is consumed. A fairly substantial minority of CLs appear to be interested in children’s urine; on the basis of similar prevalence of other sexual preferences — lots of BLs liking medium-built, blond, blue-eyed boys and boys’ feet, lots of GLs liking slim, blonde, blue-eyed girls, East Asian girls and girls’ feet, much the same as with their teleiophilic counterparts — I assume a fairly substantial minority of teleiophiles are interested in adults’ urine. Spanking “beyond a gentle level” is banned; lots of people are interested in hard spanking. Caning and fisting are out. Fisting is quite common, and there are still many people kicking around in the UK who went to schools where canings were given and are really into caning or being caned, perhaps dressing as schoolboys for the latter — uh-oh, role-playing as non-adults! And, as many people have pointed out, while many of spanking enthusiasts and most people who have seen spanking in porn — which is probably most people — seem to take it for granted that spanking is always done by a man to a woman, things like whipping, and face-sitting too, are staples of “femdom”, also a common enthusiasm.
So there have been demonstrations and written protests against the law, many by women: porn director Erika Lust, for instance, has written that these regulations may turn porn into “boring, unrealistic male fantasy”. However, people with these sexual tastes don’t appear to be rising up en masse, partly because it takes a lot of courage to declare such interests and partly because they’re not really affected. For the moment at least, they can still watch their favourite porn, as is pointed out here: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/no-female-ejaculation-please-we-re-british-a-history-of-porn-and-censorship-9903054.html And if an adult can find the stuff for free and watch it, so can a kid. And who is more likely to have a credit or debit card to pay a video-on-demand site, an adult or a kid? Are people perhaps worried that an adult will hurt or “corrupt” a child by showing them “extreme” pornography from a VOD site? Can anyone point to a case where this has happened? I doubt it. This article by Myles Jackman suggests that the “safeguard children” reason given is in fact a convenient screen for the real purpose of the law: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-uks-sexist-new-pornography-restrictions-arent-just-an-act-of-state-censorship-but-could-be-the-9903830.html

Dissident

I think, A, that this is the basic message those new U.K. porn restrictions are meant to convey to prospective connoisseurs: “We are going to outlaw the filmed depiction of any act, even if merely simulated fully consensually by thespians, that we, the moral guardians of U.K. society, do not approve of. If people want to imagine or fantasize about any of that horrid stuff, we’re going to show them that we’re ‘better’ than they are by criminalizing their right to have a simulated audio/visual outlet for such thoughts.”
It’s an example of the law doing something that I have opined repeatedly that a true democratic, free society must never do: Make a certain mutually consensual act, or fictional depiction of any type of act (either in the written or filmed form), illegal for the purpose of making a moral point. The extremely destructive and counter-productive War On Drugs has long been justified in the U.S. and elsewhere for similar reasons (one U.S. Senator even went on record for saying, “What kind of country would we be if we legalized drugs?”). The same reason has been made to justify outlawing abortion, the sale of contraceptives, the selling of sex, looking at certain images, and various mutually consensual sexual acts that cause no substantive demonstrable harm to anyone (but which may be considered “degrading” to women by moral pundits).
Btw, thank you for the links and yet another introduction to an interesting adjective I never came across before (“choky,” in this case!).

thenewsexualorder

This is horrifying, as a victim of pornography, I mean horrified by the support given to pornography on the MAP community, no matter what I say, what you show everyone when abuse victims speak, and you show now when I speak against pornography.
I repeat to you, to all those present, with all the respect in the world, I am a victim of pornography, and have suffered problems by the attraction to adults, so do not care if they are consensual or not, I have evidence? the same as you.
If you look normal everything that happens today, so perfect, in fact, it is doing very well, if you do not like it, then you’re like me.
It is clear, and it shows in the comments and articles of MAPs sites, this is the culture of “everything is OK”, is simply is the legalization and normalization of all, now including sex with children and so on, come on, if is obvious!
Abortion, contraception, prostitution and pornography have been banned a long time, and with good reason, in fact, the senseless (not all) use of contraceptives, and porn and prostitution are real evils of sex, and the abortion is directly outside all logic, a logic that all of you share with the hated “feminists”, is curious, in fact I beginning to think certain things about why there is defended all sexuality without restrictions, well… I will not say.

Dissident

If you have been a victim of some sort of pornography, or of anything else, then I do sympathize with you. And greatly. But in all honesty, much of what you say reeks of moralistic (rather than moral) indignation over anything you do not approve of personally. The many examples you use are evidence of this, I believe. Moreover, there are frankly many people who insist on defining being terribly offended by this or that as being “harmed” by it. This is why I speak of empirically demonstrable harm as being the only type of harm that any law should prohibit, and none of us are against laws that prohibit and criminalize genuine rape, sexual harassment, stalking, etc. So I have little doubt that anything you may have actually been harmed by would still be criminalized under any world order that pro-choice MAPs favor.
This is not to dismiss the feelings and concerns of any real victims of any societal institution; rather, it’s to put it in perspective, and to explain my contention as to why making certain mutually consensual practices illegal doesn’t protect people from victimization, but rather creates numerous additional problems and exacerbates those that already exist… without protecting anyone. There are ways to greatly minimize harm and genuine victimization from any given institution or practice, but I think all the available evidence proves that a moral crusade alongside draconian laws are not the way to go about this. Rather, moral crusades tend to spawn far more demons than they eradicate, and they do not end up serving the greater good. We can never create a society of complete security, but I think it is possible to create a considerably better world order than we have today.

A.

I agree with everything Dissident has so articulately said in reply. I would also like to add:
I’m very sorry to hear about what happened to you. Nothing similar has ever happened to me, so I cannot know what it is like. However, I do have a good friend who was raped, so I have some idea of the suffering sexual abuse of all kinds can cause.
You may not want to read this book, as it may be upsetting for you, but I’d like to point other readers to it: Jan Schuijer and Benjamin Rossen’s The Trade in Child Pornography, from 1992. It is based on data collected by Dr E. Braches on all of the child porn photo magazines sold, quite legally, in European sex shops between the late 1950s and 1984, plus some additional data collected by the authors. https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/trade/schuijer_rossen_92_frame.htm In particular I point to Appendix C: Content Analysis. Some photographs did depict violent rape. However, a slight majority of all photographs showed one child alone. Likewise, a slight majority of photographs of girls showed the girls naked, yes, but not engaging in any sexual activity, simply either posing for the camera or just having fun, for instance swimming or playing ping-pong. Many other photos apparently showed naked children hugging or kissing each other. Fully 17.3% of all photographs of boys showed them with at least some clothes on. (Interestingly, only 1.5% of girl photos showed clothed girls.) Granted, these photos were taken at a time when adult porn was by and large much milder than it is now, but nonetheless the data suggest that given free pornographic rein, CLs would not tend to rush off to make reams of hard pornography featuring children.
I’d also like to point to Appendix D. A Dutch “child pornography ring” was discovered in 1988. It centred around one Fred V., “one of the most active photographers of the naked child in the Netherlands.” During the 1970s, he worked for non-pornographic youth magazines and would, for instance, take photographs in the changing room of an international boys’ soccer tournament. He distributed these photos as soft-core porn, and donated the money he made to “charities, among others Mother Theresa and third-world children.” Later, he made friends with many boys, took them on camping trips and photographed and filmed them having sex with each other. He told the boys this material was for his personal use, but distributed some of the photos anyway. Clearly, that was a serious abuse of trust. Appendix D contains the views, taken from their statements to the police, of ten boys and one girl who had spent time with Fred V., appeared in his porn and, in most cases, had sex with him. They were aged 7-16 at the time of their contact with Fred V., modal age seemingly about 12-13, and mostly a couple-few years older when they made their statements to the police. The chief problem for several was that they felt deeply ashamed. Two said they had been manipulated and pressured by Fred V. One said that it had been a happy time and that he had chosen to participate, and another said that his relationship with Fred V. was the best he had ever had with anyone. This is someone it’s impossible to see either as an angel or as a demon.

Dissident

One thing I’ve noticed regarding the pornography issue that should be mentioned here, A, is this: I’ve long noticed that there are many individuals, including within the MAP community, who simply have strong moralistic reservations against the concept of pornography in general. Accordingly, they can watch any type of “blue” film and suddenly imagine that they notice every type of horror imaginable (“Omg, I can tell that woman is drugged! Look at her eyes!; Omg, is that a cigarette burn?!; Look at the expression on that other woman’s face! She can’t possibly be doing this under her own free will!;Those women are smiling? Well, how do we know they’re not being forced to smile and fake all the enjoyment at gunpoint or knifepoint?”). They will also take a few examples, like Linda Lovelace’s story, or any example of a porn actress who may have later developed a drug problem, etc., and then insist they are representative of the entire industry, and insist that all types of porn should be banned “just in case.” Denying adult actresses the right to choose involvement in such an industry is claimed to be “protecting” them.
Now you can imagine such individuals extrapolating all of that to CP. We used to have a poster on GC who claimed to be pro-choice, and he had even spent some time in prison for having mutually consensual sexual contact with a pre-pubescent girl. Yet he turned out to be an inveterate moral crusader, insisting that he had come across websites with countless pics of underage girls who had been brutally tortured (he didn’t claim it was on the Dark Net, because this was before its popularity/notoriety). He argued against even the well-known observations by FBI agent Ken Lanning that many kids who appeared in alleged CP seemed smiling and exuberant, insisting that many of them could easily have been “prepared” (his exact word), i.e., forced to pretend to be enjoying the participation convincingly while under great duress. Not even Lanning jumped to that assumption, but said he was puzzled by what he thought was an incongruous display. This poster, I should add, was the same individual who later started a moral crusade on GC’s board against parents having their girls vaccinated against the STD that can cause cervical cancer and many other nasty forms of cancer in both girls and boys (HPV), which was a trendy thing in the U.S. a few years ago after the vaccine’s FDA approval that has been refuted by all objective scientific inquiry.
Those who have all of these moralistic objections to pornography (or related forms of controversial sexual expression, such as escort work) will likewise imagine and assume that everyone who is involved with producing it must be thoroughly corrupt individuals who are capable of any type of evil imaginable; and assume the same about all individuals who may be the material’s target audience. These are the individuals who, when extrapolating this to support a continued blanket ban on all underage erotica involving real underagers, imagine that Kind people are somehow considerably more likely to have “extreme” interests than non-Kind people, and that those who may actually have “extreme” interests are somehow likely to be far more “extreme” than non-Kinds, e.g., insisting that anything involving torture or force must be real rather than simulated. Hence, their further extrapolated assumption that there is a multi-billion dollar international industry run by “evil” MAPs who kidnap and hideously torture real underagers to cater to these alleged legions of “evil” and depraved MAPs… despite the fact that there is no substantive evidence to suggest such horrific industries exist. And if any such industry was in fact real – either regarding adult and (perhaps especially) underager victims – the logistics and finances needed to carry this out would be staggeringly immense. But I’ll tackle this in more depth in Part 2 of this guest blog… stay tuned!

A.

I didn’t know that about the HPV vaccine scare. Will read up on it. Thanks. And I’ll stay tuned! Looking forward to part 2!
I found this article a very worthwhile read and, though it’s 12 years old now, a useful corrective to the more hysterical ideas out there: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/jan/23/childprotection

A.

“These are the individuals who…imagine that Kind people are somehow considerably more likely to have ‘extreme’ interests than non-Kind people…” Frankly I don’t think many people are that hung up on the stats (unlike me!). The reasoning goes like this: anyone interested in sex with a child is by definition interested in sex with a non-consenting person, so of course a lot of people like *that* are into torture porn.
I also think Law & Order: Special Victims Unit has a lot to answer for, with its episodes on snuff films, anal rape of 6-year-old boys and so forth. There was even a VirPed episode of sorts, Confession, though it predates VirPed. Long story short, the programme makers weren’t convinced about the ‘virtuous’ part. Jake is a 57-year-old medical supply salesman who calls himself a paedosexual and collects legal photos of clothed small girls, “delicious little angels ages 3-9” (the phrasing and the AOA could easily be found on GirlChat, which makes me think they did some cursory homework). He says that he can’t change, that he wasn’t abused as a child but was simply born hardwired this way, and that he spends every waking moment controlling his “appetites”. He also runs a website advising other padophiles to “look but never touch”, obtaining legal photos for them and telling them the best places to watch kids. He is an online mentor of sorts to Eric, a 17-year-old friendless loner who is in love with his 5-year-old stepbrother Cory (always with the very young kids and the within-the-family stuff) but has not lain a finger on him. Tormented by his thoughts, which feel like an addiction, Eric’s been getting blackout drunk, and because “it’s getting hard not to touch” he turns himself in to the police for help. No help is given, but when it turns out that Cory played doctor with a little girl at kindergarten — his mother says kids are naturally curious and the school completely overreacted — they send him to a child psychologist, sedate him and examine him for signs of rape; there’s no indication that this is is at all traumatic for the child, though surely it could well be. No signs of rape are found, though the examiner explains this does not mean “an oral or digital assault” has not taken place. There’s a subplot where the angry stepfather coaches Cory to lie about being abused and put a crayon in a doll’s rectum. Then they find photos of “children in various stages of undress” on Eric’s laptop, which means “federal time”, but while they’re doing that Eric snaps, sexually abuses a kid at a playground and boasts about it on Jake’s website. Law-abiding Jake then brutally murders Eric and explains that he did it because by molesting the boy, Eric “murdered his spirit” and because Eric, having started to abuse kids, “would never have stopped”. Eric’s mother, kneeling over the body, sobs that she loved her son, but she’s glad he’s dead.

Dissident

That episode sounds like its promoting a simplistic “good vs. evil” framework, by pitting “good” MAPs against “bad” MAPs, which, as you noted, does indeed fit into the worldview espoused by many of the Kind people who today call themselves VirPeds. It’s part of an overriding strategy for playing into and exploiting public fears, rather than denouncing and proving them wrong (as I set out to do in this guest blog), in the hope of winning a degree of societal tolerance for MAPs who follow a specific ideology.
I think your assessment of why so many of the fear-mongers who promote the modern version of the “Blood Libel” nonsense try connecting pedophilia and hebephilia to the “hurtcore” aspect of the torture porn craze is on target. Nevertheless, I think there is also a bit more to it than that. This is their attempt to promote the idea that any adult with a natural attraction for underagers must necessarily lack a conscience and ability to empathize with others, and thus can supposedly be satiated by nothing less than the worst imaginable extremes. It’s all borne of pent-up emotions from society at large, and as such, it makes not a lick of rational sense, as I did my best to point out over the course of this guest blog.
In regards to what you pointed out in another thread in this particular comments section about three prolific and particularly horrific serial killers of Colombian nativity being attracted to children and/or adolescents: I would opine that depends on how you define the word “attracted.” Contrary to what too much of the public currently fails to realize, typical pedophilia and hebephilia are about more than a mere raw physical attraction to kids in their respective AoA. It actually encompasses an entire attraction base that has strong emotional, social, and aesthetic components, including a pronounced capacity for genuine love and affection. It has nothing to do with a desire for control over others, and Kind people do not typically lack a conscience or suffer from out-of-control urges. There are various forms of fetishists who do indeed have a simple raw physical attraction to underagers, and are sometimes incorrectly identified with BLer’s and GLer’s, but even the great majority of them have a conscience and are capable of love and empathy towards other human beings; they simply lack the romantic aspects common to typical MAPs. All of this is in very marked contrast to serial killers, who are extreme, aberrational psychopaths, and are not representative of any particular sexual minority.
And yes, over the years those unfortunately popular SVU TV shows have done a lot to spread very libelous and horribly incorrect images of pedophilia and hebephilia for the sake of ratings and public brownie points for LEA’s who deal with sex crimes. In one episode aired several years ago, they depicted a fictional online MAP forum called “Our Special Love,” that the producers and screenwriters said was based on Newgon (yes, they did do a highly biased form of “homework”). The TV version of this forum demanded that all prospective members prove their “credentials” by being required to show they had possession of illegal CP in order to gain membership on the forum. I was on the administration of the real Newgon at the time, and I can tell you in no uncertain times the administration worked hard to keep the public forum scrupulously legal, and never promoted or advocated illegal sexual behavior of any type. The SVU “adaptation” of Newgon was a stupendous and shamelessly sensationalistic lie of Brobdingnagian proportions.

A.

Replying up here to you down there so as to avoid word spaghetti:
Well, I certainly wouldn’t call a serial child-murderer a boy-lover or a girl-lover, no!
“…Kind people do not typically…suffer from out-of-control urges…” This is the nub, I think: the idea that MAPs and MAPs alone have sexual desires so strong and uncontrollable that they cannot resist swooping on any child they are alone with for two minutes. Even the ‘good’ MAP in that episode I recounted commits a brutal torture-murder — a brutal torture-murder of a child rapist, granted, so probably morally OK by the show’s logic, but there’s a strong implication that the pressure building up in him due to his unfulfilled sexual desires has to come out somehow, so it comes out in violence. He is also presented as a ludicrously over-the-top ‘creep’, for instance licking his lips when asking to see photos of a cop’s kids! A MetaFilter poster once wrote that in an amateur theatre group she met and became good friends with a guy who one night admitted to her that he was exclusively sexually attracted to prepubescent boys. She then noticed that he was very careful never, ever to be alone with a child. For most of those who acknowledge that good MAPs can exist, this is a good MAP: one who stays away from kids entirely. It’s exactly the wrong approach. Some MAPs can live on memories of friendships they had with kids when they were very young adults, but a total lack, over a whole adult life, of even occasional and brief non-sexual contact with children is likely to create a mental and emotional imbalance and an internal pressure-cooker in most MAPs.
Recently, that is since about 2000, there have been several films beautifully depicting individual child-adult love affairs: Clément; Mein erstes Wunder; The Blossoming of Maximo Oliveros; Paradise: Hope; Le maillot de bain. That I’m aware of, there has been only one good film dealing with MAP identity as such: Guter Junge, a German TV movie. (It’s available on YouTube with bad English subtitles.) The film’s 17-year-old BL, Sven, enjoys spending time with younger boys socially and gets on better with them than with people his own age. Gazing at a child underwear model in a clothing catalogue, he talks about how he wants to hold the boy in his arms and stroke and kiss him all over his body, not about wanting to insert things into the boy’s orifices. Sven’s special friend, Matthias, is 12 and fatherless. Sven is in love with Matthias; he tutors him after school; they spend time together doing non-sexual things like going to the cinema — Matthias’s choice; they don’t have sex till they’ve known each other for a while; the sex is consensual and seemingly focused on Matthias’s orgasm more than on Sven’s. When Sven does attempt to do the good MAP bit, hiding out in his father’s flat, Matthias comes to visit and blows him a kiss. The most violent reaction Sven ever exhibits to anything is a shrinking disgust at the idea of pubic hair and of sex with a girl his own age. It’s all realistic: as far as I can tell, your average BL is quite a lot like Sven. By comparison, all those other TV caricatures are shown up more clearly for what they are.
[TOC adds: “A” has written again with a correction: Sven’s special friend is Patrick, not Matthias.]

A.

Patrick, not Matthias!

feinmann0

“As noted in this NYT piece by Nicole Perlroth, the summer of 2015 found a group comprised of 14 of the world’s top computer scientists and cryptography experts uniting to oppose the American and British governments’ unprecedented degree of surveillance-oriented hacking into corporate data centers over the past decade. This, too, is due to a major backlash in the era of post-Snowden revelations that are now causing civil rights activists, computer technologists, and even the state’s usual comfy bedfellows and beneficiaries – the big corporations, albeit specifically those that deal with private communications – to overcome their reluctance to challenge actions claimed as vital for combating terrorists and other miscreants.”
The hacker group Anonymous launched attacks a year ago on government websites to protest Canada’s new anti-terrorism bill, which allegedly empowers surveillance and security forces to monitor people’s private communications, and three years ago Anonymous also attacked multiple government websites in protest over the UK’s “draconian surveillance proposals” and “derogation of civil rights.”
And, here is an interesting article that suggests the current (and past) anti-terrorism measures are not tackling the source of the problem: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html
“Daesh has a mother: the invasion of Iraq. But it also has a father: Saudi Arabia and its religious-industrial complex. Until that point is understood, battles may be won, but the war will be lost. Jihadists will be killed, only to be reborn again in future generations and raised on the same books. The attacks in Paris have exposed this contradiction again, but as happened after 9/11, it risks being erased from our analyses and our consciences.”

Christian

Feinmann, I would never speak in positive terms of that reactionary megalomaniac group Anonymous. Their mask comes from Guy Fawkes, a catholic conspirator fighting for Spain, who tried to blow up Parliament… quite the opposite of Che Guevara or Malcolm X. Their behaviour is to decide by themselves, without any democratic consultation, to demolish web sites that they don’t like. They are anonymous, meaning that they do not have to account for their behaviour. It is suspected that several of their members, having been caught, were turned over to becoming undercover agents of the State.
Anonymous claims it once cracked CP sites, then published the addresses of its viewers, meaning that they endorse the US practice of public sex offender registers; anyway delivering CP addicts to public vendetta is not a good way of fighting addiction. They also found public discussion sites for kinds, decided that they were “disgusting” and launched DDOS attacks on them, which shows their attitude towards freedom of speech. They even made this on a 25th of April, the so-called “Alice Day” (celebrating the meeting of LC with the 4-y-o AL on 25th April 1856), which they claimed is a day to celebrate child rape and pornography; this means that they don’t make a distinction between rape/hurtcore on the one hand, and platonic GL inspired by LC’s friendship with girls on the other.

thenewsexualorder

They were hated by many people before that, and what about the attacks on the Church of Scientology and Christian groups? It is that we have no right to have a religion if people do not like it? And also those who do not have their political views, such as white nationalists, but I guess are groups of hateful people anti-kinds and they deserve it.
And curious choice of Che Guevara and Malcolm X, the first, a homophobic pro-totalitarian guerrilla fighter, and the second a anti-white terrorist, if they not tried to blow up a parliament was because they were not capable to do it.
And see CP does not make you more addicted than see adult-porn, and less if they are just erotic images of children, and not real pornography.

Dissident

Speaking to my own thoughts about these concerns you raised here…
They were hated by many people before that, and what about the attacks on the Church of Scientology and Christian groups? It is that we have no right to have a religion if people do not like it?
In many cases, including my own, I do not think it’s a matter of arguing people do not have the right to practice fundamentalist Christianity so much as insisting they do not try to impose these views on others by attempting (often all too successfully, in the USA, at least) to integrate their dogmatic beliefs into politics, including social policy and the legal system. Proselytizing is a main component of fundie Christianity, and it’s this type of intolerant and often forceful imposition of their belief system upon others that is the problem, not merely their practicing of the faith system in their own private lives.
As for Scientology, it’s also not simply about the beliefs that people dislike, but the way the entire religion acts like a business entity and attempts to copyright its various books and sue anyone who violates this “intellectual” copyright. And yet it still demands tax-exempt status? Imagine if any Christian group tried to copyright any version of The Bible, or any Islamic group tried to copyright any given version of The Koran. At the same time, it heavily pushes its very expensive products on others, and that’s not even beginning to address the cult-like behavior demanded of it its adherents by its CEO-like equivalent of the clergy. That type of behavior is bound to make a religion disliked by those who respect freedom of choice, not those who are against it, or who resent a corporate entity posing as a legitimate system of faith.
And also those who do not have their political views, such as white nationalists, but I guess are groups of hateful people anti-kinds and they deserve it.
Personally, though I would agree that hate groups deserve every amount of ire and challenge brought down upon them by freedom-and-inclusivity-favoring groups who oppose them, I would not agree they deserve to be censored. If you can justify the censorship of any type of speech, however abominable you think it may be (justifiably or otherwise), then before you know it, only popular speech is protected by the law. And what happens to be “popular” at any given time is not always what is right, especially when you consider how popular different types of mindless hate speech have been in various times and places. That is certainly not to say that groups based on racial or homophobic hatred are in any way “right,” but you have to accept the bad along with the righteous if you are serious about being a democratic nation who supports freedom of speech. Otherwise, you get things like France criminalizing any negative speech about the actions of the Israeli government under the guise of “protecting Jews from hate speech,” which effectively seals that government against criticism by purporting to connect any of its actions or policies with the interests of all Jewish people across the globe.
And curious choice of Che Guevara and Malcolm X, the first, a homophobic pro-totalitarian guerrilla fighter, and the second a anti-white terrorist, if they not tried to blow up a parliament was because they were not capable to do it.
Both of these individuals had their share of bad traits, but I think both also had more nuance to their stories than that. Malcolm X, at least, began modifying his views as time passed, but he was assassinated before they had the chance to morph into anything more inclusive than the basic beliefs of the Nation of Islam. I think he also serves as an object lesson of what any emancipation movement can become if they stray too far from egalitarian policies of any sort, which the organized misandrists posing as “feminists” regularly make clear.

feinmann0

Hi Christian – my comment was neutral with regard to the activities of Anonymous – or is any mention of them taboo, even though their hactivities have relevance to the debate here? They have a flat organizational structure – a hydra with many heads – each head potentially pursuing a different set of objectives, so one can imagine contradictions arising within and without, continually undermining the method that is Anonymous, and thus their credibility.

stephen6000

That’s an excellent article you linked to, Feinmann, exposing the West’s double standard vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia and ISIS.

Christian

According to James Kincaid, no single snuff movie was ever shot. See also
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1170/is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-snuff-film
I would never trust a private corporation like Google to uphold my privacy. I read once in the news that Google had denounced to the cops one of its users, suspecting him of transmitting CP through gmail. Given the hundreds of millions of gmail users, to detect such a suspect, they must pass email messages through some computer software dedicated to recognizing illegal material.
People who insist on their own internet privacy will refuse the operating systems (Windows, Mac) and communication softwares (Google, IE) provided by private companies. See for instance the followings article in French:
http://www.slate.fr/story/101631/internet-hyper-prudent

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