An open letter to Frank Furedi

Many heretics, including myself, have been impressed by the online magazine Spiked on account of its vociferous support for free speech, distaste for state oppression, and its robust backing of civil rights, including for paedophiles.
So when one of its leading contributors, sociologist Frank Furedi, recently joined the media chorus of those attacking paedophilia, the virulent hostility of his diatribe came as a shocking disappointment. The context was an article, “What PIE and the NSPCC have in common”, which was fine up to a point. Its central theme was actually a rather interesting argument in defence of parents against the concept of “children’s rights”. Bizarrely – but, as I say, to interesting effect, Furedi presented the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) back in the 1970s and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) as improbable ideological allies. Both organisations, he said, claimed to speak on behalf of children but neither was as benignly disposed or as well placed to secure their best interests as parents.
My reaction was to fire off a counterblast. I submitted an article to Spiked that focused on defending children’s rights – not the right to be protected from various ills, real or imaginary, which is the NSPCC’s stock in trade, but the right to exercise real autonomy and to experience real freedom. Editor Brendan O’Neill emailed me on 25 March to say he was travelling in Europe and Australia and “I will be in touch very soon, I promise”. That sounded, well, promising, but over two weeks have passed since then and despite me sending a reminder I haven’t heard from him again.
So I have decided to answer Furedi here instead, in what amounts to an open letter. The text is a slightly edited version of my original draft article for Spiked.

WHY CHILDREN REALLY DO NEED RIGHTS

As a champion of parents over the years against “experts”, and the insolent intrusions of a busybody state, Frank Furedi is to be admired. He is right to castigate the NSPCC, too, for going far beyond its legitimate brief.
But when he says children are not moral agents, and on that basis attacks the concept of children’s rights, he is just plain wrong. Children become moral agents during childhood, not at its end; and even before that stage they may have non-trivial wishes and interests that require independent representation through robust rights-based action. Proper rights, that is: rights to real liberty of personal choice, not just protection from harm.
To begin with moral agency, has Furedi never heard of Gillick competence? In 1986 the House of Lords rightly accepted that “the authority of parents to make decisions for their minor children is not absolute, but diminishes with the child’s evolving maturity”. The highest court in the land in the case of Gillick v. West Norfolk & Wisbech Area Health Authority ruled that those under 16 could consent to medical treatment as long as they had sufficient understanding and intelligence to appreciate what was proposed and to express their own wishes. The context was the child’s right to advice on contraception for sexually active youngsters, a right which, were it more widely known and supported through sex education, would do more to bring down Britain’s high rate of teenage pregnancy than ineffectual attempts to suppress youthful sexuality.
For present purposes, though, the salient feature of the Gillick ruling is not the sexual aspect but rather the judgement’s recognition of an important reality: adult competences do not suddenly begin at an arbitrary age of majority; they grow over time. Good parents know this and allow their children to “spread their wings” as they grow older, and even take off: they understand that the occasional crash landing is a possibility and can be a valuable learning experience. It is all part of an apprenticeship in life.
Like Furedi, I believe that in general no one is better placed than parents to make judgements as to what their own children are ready for; no one knows them so well, nor will anyone else be more strongly disposed to secure their best interests. I have never been hostile to parents, either when I was Chair of the much traduced Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) long ago, or since. At the risk of setting off a fresh spate of tabloid excitement, I can honestly say some of my best friends have been parents.
That does not mean, though, that I would defend particular family structures to the last ditch, especially the all-too-explosive nuclear family, forged in relatively recent historical times not out of high purpose and dignity – an Englishman’s home is his castle, and all that – but from the grim necessity for a mobile labour force, detached from wider family and community, as the Industrial Revolution took hold.
Indeed, the tensions inside the nuclear family, and its frequent breakdown, constitute a fair proportion of the need for children to have rights. Parents do not all have their children’s best interests at heart. Step-parents, especially, who now make up such a substantial proportion of the whole, have much to answer for. The “wicked” step-parent is no myth. Frequently they resent their newly acquired brood; their hatred may even be murderous. Stepchildren are 60 times more likely to be killed than genetically related offspring [Daly & Wilson, 1994]. Not that this lets biological parents off the hook: taking parents as a whole, the latest figures show they kill on average over one child per fortnight in the UK, often in the context of a relationship breaking up, when one of the adult partners (usually a father) murders his children to spite his former partner [Office for National Statistics, 2013].
It is an ugly reality, so grim we cannot bear to face it; which is probably why these horrible cases tend to be dismissed in a paragraph or two in the media and described as a domestic “tragedy”, rather than in the more floridly anathematising terms (“evil”, “vile”, etc.) reserved for even the most mild and non-coerced paedophilic encounters. I recall one case somewhere in the West Country a couple of decades ago in which the father impaled the decapitated heads of his three children on spikes, leaving them for his ex to see. Even that spectacularly ghastly case disappeared from the news after a day or two. The vanishingly rare murder of a child in a sexual context, by contrast, is kept alive for a decade or more, such is the public’s need to project its own darkest feelings onto a monstrous Other.
Of course, the criminal law applies in the case of murder. Children do not need any rights in this regard beyond the human right to life. But there are many circumstances in which distinct rights for children would help enormously, both as regards invoking Gillick competence and, for children who are not yet competent to assert their own just claims, rights which can nevertheless be enforced in law on their behalf. These rights should take account of their wishes, not just their (adult defined) “best interests”. This, too, already has some standing in law. The 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child acknowledged the right of children to be heard. This principle was incorporated into the Children Act of the same year, which said that while the children’s welfare should be paramount, courts should take into account “the ascertainable wishes and feelings of the child concerned”.
This formulation was far too wishy washy: wishes can be heard, but may still be ignored. The move towards a more effective measure is inhibited by confusion. The law will be deficient as long as we remain in thrall to the classic, albeit weak, argument that rights imply responsibilities, and that young children, before they become Gillick competent, cannot have truly enforceable rights because they are incapable of discharging the responsibilities that go with them. But as philosophers, including, most famously, John Rawls, have acknowledged, this is misconceived. As human rights lawyer Paul Sieghart put it:

In all legal theory and practice, rights and duties are symmetrical. It is a popular fallacy to believe that this symmetry applies within the same individual: that if I have a right, I must also have a correlative duty. This is not so: if I have a right, someone else must have a correlative duty; if I have a duty, someone else must have a corresponding right [Sieghert, 1985].

Children “in care”, may have significant rights claims against a range of professionals who act in loco parentis as teachers, etc. Having said that, the family is the most obvious locus of children’s claims, just as Furedi asserts. This is because, famously, most abuse, whether in terms of outright neglect and cruelty, or unwanted sexual attention, takes place in the home. This is a robustly quantified reality, not a feminist myth: in the most authoritative study to date, regression analysis indicates that dysfunctional family background is nine times as predictive of adult psychological harm as “child sexual abuse” (CSA) [Rind et al., 1998]. Had it been possible to separate non-coercive so-called CSA in the figures from coercive molestation and rape, the ratio would probably have risen dramatically, to infinity, because CSA thus defined would emerge as, on average, not psychologically harmful at all.
As for what distinct children’s rights might be needed, probably the most compelling cases are those concerning the right of children (1) to make medical decisions on their own behalf, especially when the issue of life and death is engaged; (2) to decide on their own custody in the event of parental separation and divorce; (3) to “divorce parents in the event of incompatibility. In all three areas considerable progress has been made in this century: we are not talking about a dead 1970s concept.
In the United States, for instance, it is relatively routine now for older children to have access to the law and to divorce a parent in the event of serious incompatibility, as for instance in the case of a gay teenager subjected to constant disparagement by a disappointed and unsympathetic father. It happens. It’s serious. These kids die by their own hand way disproportionately to their peers when they cannot find a supportive environment. As for medical decisions, doctors are moving towards the view that even quite young children can make rational and (given professional advice) informed decisions in difficult cases, such as whether or not to accept dangerous kill-or-cure surgery, or whether they wish to accept therapy inevitably committing themselves to years of pain and distress. And who could doubt that parents who are Jehovah’s Witnesses act against their children’s best interests when they refuse to sanction blood transfusions for a child in an emergency? This cries out for a child’s right, if they wish, to override their parents’ views.
The case for children’s sexual rights is a more complex matter, so I’ll close with a brief response to Furedi’s flaying of PIE’s “self-interested” stance. I look forward to him now denouncing his own self-interested lack of credibility: he campaigns for the rights of parents rather than children. Well, he would, wouldn’t he: he’s a parent!
Seriously, Frank, this essentially ad hominem way of shutting us up is a cheap shot, and unworthy of you. It makes you look like the politicians and judges who have been in such a hurry lately to publicly renounce their previous support for the basic civil rights of paedophiles: with their careers under immediate threat they appear to have panicked. One reason this has happened in such a big way, incidentally, is the failure of Liberty to defend liberty. The former National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL) did a better job. Spiked editor Brendan O’Neill is to be congratulated for his staunch and principled recent defence of the NCCL’s former affiliation with PIE.
Daly, M & Wilson, M; “Some differential attributes of lethal assaults on small children by stepfathers versus genetic fathers”, Ethology & Sociobiology, Vol 15(4), Jul 1994, 207-217.
Office for National Statistics (2013); Focus on: violent crime and sexual offences, 2011/12 http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_298904.pdf
Rind, B, Tromovitch P Bauserman R (1998); “A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples”. Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53.
Sieghert, P; The Lawful Rights of Mankind, OUP, 1985, p.94

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

47 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Cyril

a new study on factors influencing parental communication with LGBTQ children:

Cyril

mothers that kill their children are mentally sane — contrary to what propagandists of family values say:

[…] rights, too, as I have argued here before, are only sustainable in a context of enforceable law backed by state power. And, believe it or […]

James

I’ve never understood why rights should have responsibilities attached. From each according to his abilities; to each according to his needs. There is no reason one’s competence to act should determine one’s rights. In that case the disabled would be denied rights. It’s tantamount to denying someone welfare on the basis that they’re too poor to pay taxes.
The language on children’s rights is far too wishy washy. We need a union. (I can’t link on this tablet so pretend that was a link to There Is Power In A Union by Billy Bragg 🙂 )
Interesting point on parental arguments for parent’s rights being biased 🙂

A.

Lessons from a very sad subject: paediatric palliative cancer care. “Patient-controlled analgesia (PCA) has been established as a safe and efficacious method in patients aged 6 years or older. … [I]ncluding children over age 12 in decision making is key. … In the context of medical research, children as young as 7 years can provide assent for participation. In addition, assent is strongly recommended to enroll adolescents in clinical research. … Children as young as 6 years have participated in complex end-of-life decision making and played an influential role in those decisions when their preferences are considered.” http://www.oncologypractice.com/fileadmin/content_images/jso/PDF/vol11-no3_Ped_Pall_Canc_Care.pdf
Michael Gove’s latest wheeze: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/may/16/privatise-child-protection-services-department-for-education-proposes I’m slightly acquainted with someone who grew up in foster care and he thinks this is an absolutely terrible idea.

James

LOL. Most people who are well acquainted with a given system believe libertarian changes to that system would be a terrible idea. That never slows down the libertarians.

A.

Book rec: Granny the Pag, by celebrated children’s author Nina Bawden, who is probably most famous for Carrie’s War. Granny the Pag, first published in 1996, is about a twelve-year-old’s fight to remain in the custody of her grandmother, who has been raising her for years, rather than going to live with her parents. It feels very true and accurate to me in all sorts of ways: as a general depiction of what childhood feels like, and as a depiction specifically of a loving one-on-one relationship between a child and her guardian, and of being a child in the middle of a custody battle with strong views about it (happened to me when I was six).
The other book I really love for capturing the feeling of childhood is Gene Kemp’s The Turbulent Term of Tyke Tiler, first published in 1977, which won an award from the Children’s Rights Workshop. It is in fact the only book I’ve ever found which realistically shows what life in a UK state primary school is like, which isn’t surprising as the author was a teacher in one for years. Tyke, twelve, casually breaks every gender stereotype there is, has a good relationship with her sympathetic teacher Mr Merchant and detests the blinkered Mrs Somers, and struggles to defend her disabled, neglected and kleptomaniac best friend Danny from the adults who misjudge him and want to separate the friends. Some of the subject matter would probably be rare in the children’s books of today: Tyke’s dad’s strong lefty politics, Tyke and Danny spying on Tyke’s older sister and her boyfriend hoping to see some sexy action, the schoolkids joking about Mr Merchant’s obvious crush on the pretty new young student teacher, Tyke finding her parents kissing on the sofa after an argument – not to mention the degree of freedom Tyke has to roam around by herself.
I like John Rowe Townsend’s children’s books (Tom Tiddler’s Ground was the first I read) for their unsugared realism about childhood emotions and relationships, as well as about the poverty and deprivation in which some kids grow up. I also like Beverly Cleary’s beloved Ramona series, which follows the life of a girl aged four through nine in a realistic and respectful way.

A.

Yes, the right decision was made. It was a pretty cut-and-dried case: I wanted to stay with my mother, and because my father left before I was born and she was raising me alone, the judge took the view that it would obviously be best for me to stay with her. But you should always avoid going to court if you possibly can, you know? My mother and father had already had an amicable agreement about visitation before he sent that fateful solicitor’s letter. The whole court case thing was badly upsetting for everyone involved. And one of the most upsetting things for me was that nobody official listened to me at all. Even at six, I objected just on principle to not being consulted. I felt that I was being treated like an inanimate object to be moved from place to place as other people chose: the way I put it was “I feel like a sack of potatoes.” I hated the idea that other people were deciding my ‘best interest’ over my head and behind my back. I felt I knew perfectly well what my own best interests were.
While we’re on the subject, you know the Dylan Farrow/Woody Allen controversy? That could’ve been me. I was seven. I was sent unwillingly on a visitation week with my dad — I’d’ve been fine with it if not for the court case, but since the case I resented him like hell. We were sitting eating dinner and he sort of stroked me awkwardly on the back. He was trying to mend bridges, and in an inchoate way I knew it, but because I resented him I resented his touching me. Well, I came home. My mother had a Welcome Home card for me, and I was so moved I welled up: it was the first time I ever felt that particular emotion, of being moved by what someone else has done for you. I cuddled on her lap and told her all about how I’d hated being with my father, and she made sympathetic noises. Then I mentioned the back-stroking incident and how I hadn’t liked it. My mother pulled back and got very serious and said that if he ever touched me in a way I disliked, I was to tell her. I immediately understood the following things:
1.) She’s talking about something very bad.
2.) Because it’s so bad, I know it hasn’t happened: Dad did nothing that bad to me.
3.) If I don’t say anything she’ll go on thinking it happened
4.) If I let her go on thinking that, Dad will be in massive trouble, and I’ll be unleashing something huge I have no idea how to handle.
So straightaway I reassured her: no, no, it wasn’t like that at all, it wasn’t bad. She calmed down and we went on with the day.
Would the average seven-year-old have reacted as I did? Seven was the year I heard ‘sex’ on the playground and looked it up in the dictionary, so I knew the definition of intercourse, but that was about all I knew. At five and six, I had gone through a period of scatological fascination, had received a couple of love notes from classmates, had admired and touched the penises of little boys I was bathing with, had ‘played doctor’ (I took off my trousers and pretended to give birth to a doll) with a female friend, but when I was seven all that had gone temporarily underground. I wasn’t masturbating or having any conscious sexual feelings and I would have no romantic crushes until the following year. We had no TV and I was not regularly around any couples, so I had next to no idea about what couples typically do: in my mind, back-stroking was something that happened between parents and children only. I had had a Stranger Danger talk at school, but no ‘good-touch-bad-touch’: I think our cohort was a bit early for that. On the other hand, because of the court case I had some notion of what happens when the legal system is set in motion and can’t be stopped from deciding things for people. I was not a particularly socially perceptive or nice or rule-bound child, and I would have been glad to get my father in minor trouble with a false accusation, but because I saw that this would be major trouble, my baby conscience squirmed and I stopped in my tracks.
How all of that measures up to the average seven-year-old’s situation I have no idea.

A.

Thanks!

ron

I dont know weather you have seen rita sue and bob too 1987,Its about two teenage babysitters who have an affair with the husband,theres a scene
when the girls are playing tennis in school,and he emerges from a distance
using sexual sign language,so they sneak off and join him. I doubt they would make a film like that these days, even when trying to portray those times accurately.The racism in the film is certainly accurate.

mr p

It would be interesting to hear some inter-generational testimonies from
spain,before the age of consent was raised to match most of the other e.u.countries.
I know parents were complaining to the police,with them replying we are powerless to act.
Most of the time a family would feel under threat,If a child would bring an
adult into the home,most would not get a foot past the door.
Listening to a presenter on 5 live saying,when im with my teenage daughter in town, I want to commit violence when i see men looking at her.
Well is that not part of the problem, viewing your child as property,with no desires that you afforded yourself.
I have been caught glancing at a mans beautiful daughter,i may as well shouted i f****d your wife,the way the guy looked at me,I dont like to brag but i stay in shape i can squat over 200k comfortably,so i think the guy thought twice lol.one draw back is all that lifting keeps the testosterone levels high
so i never miss a pretty girl or boy for that matter.

A.

“Listening to a presenter on 5 live saying,when im with my teenage daughter in town, I want to commit violence when i see men looking at her.
Well is that not part of the problem, viewing your child as property,with no desires that you afforded yourself.”
Exactly! Very neatly put mr p.

mr p

Thanks A.I would just like to elaborate that i dont go around glaring at peoples kids,trying to intimidate the parents,the guy just glanced over and caught me looking.Another time in a foreign supermarket, i notices a beautiful boy,russian i think, by the way many have their hair short at the side but middle down to the sholders,another shopper noticed me looking,I just looked at him to say hear we go so f*****g what,but then he just looked at him too
I guess theres more of us about than i thought.

A.

“As for what distinct children’s rights might be needed, probably the most compelling cases are those concerning the right of children (1) to make medical decisions on their own behalf, especially when the issue of life and death is engaged; (2) to decide on their own custody in the event of parental separation and divorce; (3) to ‘divorce’ parents in the event of incompatibility. In all three areas considerable progress has been made in this century: we are not talking about a dead 1970s concept.”
I think you hit the nail on the head there. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the first right you mention. As a woman and a feminist, I’m very concerned by recent efforts to roll back abortion access in the US, and some of the biggest problems there — acknowledged by pretty much all feminists — have to do with minors’ rights to abortion. Here is the Guttmacher Institute on US minors’ rights to consent to sexual and reproductive healthcare: https://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OMCL.pdf You’ll note that, while the picture is far from great overall, minors’ rights to consent to abortion are the most restricted. The parental notification laws which some states have — the parents are not legally empowered to stop their child from having an abortion, but they must be notified that she’s going to, usually twenty-four or forty-eight hours beforehand — are uniquely horrifying. Imagine being twelve and coming from a family which is strongly opposed to abortion and having your parents informed you’ll be having one in a day or two. See this article, for instance: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sexual-justice/parental-notification-law_b_451124.html
Another big question, which has lately been getting a little bit more of the airtime it sorely needs, is that of intersex children. I recommend the blog Intersex Roadshow (I won’t link to it here because it contains a few medical illustrations of adult intersex genitalia and you never know what somebody’s going to make trouble over). As I understand it, the mainstream intersex activist position is that intersex children should be raised in one or the other binary gender, but that no surgery should be performed on infant intersex genitals unless it’s really medically necessary. When they are old enough, the children can decide for themselves whether or not they want surgery. How old is old enough? I’ve seen plenty of suggestions that it could be twelve or thirteen. On the same general subject, one of the latest big things in gender research is the Johns Hopkins cloacal exstrophy study from 2006, which you can read in full here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421517/ The children in this study were all XY, but they were born with severely deformed or missing penes, so it was considered best to raise them as girls. They had their testicles removed and were given surgically constructed vulvae, and their parents were instructed never to mention their children’s chromosomal sex. Of the fourteen raised in this way, four spontaneously declared that they were boys, at ages seven, nine, nine and twelve; two of these were permitted by their parents to live as boys from that point onwards. Four more declared that they were boys when their parents told them their full medical history, at ages five, seven, seven and eighteen.
With transgender and gender-variant kids, we are also usually looking at a similarly early and spontaneous declaration of identity and/or manifestation of preference, which is often maintained in the face of all kinds of opposition.There’s a really good blog called Accepting Dad, written by ‘Bedford Hope’, a US father of two sons the elder of whom, ‘Oscar’, has always shown a strong, spontaneous preference for ‘girl things’. Bedford Hope has now, respecting his son’s wishes, taken down much of the blog content, but you can still read some of it. With Oscar, he and his wife took a ‘watchful waiting’ course. They knew that some boys like Oscar will grow up transgender, but most will grow up gay (and a few straight). They did what they could to help Oscar feel comfortable in his skin, including getting him some counselling sessions and taking him to a summer camp where he could meet other gender-variant boys. They allowed him to wear what he wanted where he wanted, play with the toys he liked and so forth. If he’d decided that he wanted puberty-blocking drugs and a legal name change with a view to sex change surgery at eighteen, they were prepared to support him in that, but he never did: though fine with either pronoun, he always maintained that he was a boy. For a while in early adolescence, the time when kids tend to be at their most self-conscious and their most ruthlessly conformist, he retired his girls’ clothes, though he kept his long hair. Now, at fifteen, he’s back to wearing skirts and dresses some of the time. At thirteen he was already tall with a deepened voice and masculinised facial features, so he’s probably never going to fit neatly into either of our gender boxes, never going to ‘pass’ perfectly as either a ‘proper’ man or a ‘proper’ woman. And that should be OK.
It seems to me that Bedford Hope and his wife handled things in exemplary fashion. I’d be happy if I could do half as well in their shoes. But their solution clearly is not right for everybody, as Hope is the first to acknowledge. They live in a socially liberal city on the east coast of the US. Their son has always been very sociable and socially skilled, and has had no difficulty making and keeping lots of friends of both sexes. He’s also tough enough to take the heat: asked in the playground why a boy would want to wear a dress, he replied, “BECAUSE IT’S A FREE COUNTRY, ASSHOLE!” If the family had been living in the Bible Belt, if Oscar had been a shy or thin-skinned child likely to suffer badly from teasing and social ostracism, you could certainly argue that letting him present as he wished, and thereby exposing him to bullying and beating on a daily basis, would count as negligent parenting. Some parents in that situation strike a compromise: for instance, they allow their child to wear whatever they like at home but not to school. I’d have a hard time believing that this policy, even if it’s against the child’s wishes, is not in the child’s best interests. Complicated stuff.

James

What do you think about circumcision. I’d say the logic is similar to that of intersex sex-assignment surgery.
The points you raise about transgender children are quite cognizant. However, I’d like to point out that in the case of some of them the choice is between present-in-a-way-that-gets-you-bullied and kill-yourself-to-escape-dysphoria. Obviously, the win condition is not being the type of person who likes to dress-up and having minimal dysphoria, like me.

Dave Riegel

I was pleased to cite Furedi in my Androphilia paper, and I am at a loss to understand why he felt driven to publish this “anti” article. Perhaps he, like so many before him (e.g. Sandfort) felt the heat from the “Child Sex Abuse” activists?
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run.

clovernews

I was pleased to cite Furedi in my Androphilia paper, and I am at a loss to understand why he felt driven to publish this “anti” article. Perhaps he, like so many before him (e.g. Sandfort) felt the heat from the “Child Sex Abuse” activists?

Has Furedi ever published any specifically ‘pro’ (adult-child sex) articles?
(I’m sure he’s a very fine chap in a general libertarian way.)

Dave Riegel

Not exactly. I cited Furedi, F, & Bristow, J. (2008). Licensed</i? to hug. London: Civitas. Please read http://www.boyandro.info for more information about what he said and how it was incorporated into the IJSH article.

clovernews

The part from Furedi and Bristow (2008) you quote says, “cultural distancing of generations weakens the bonds of community life… through policies that encourage the erosion of the older generations in the joint enterprise of socializing youngsters”.
You say, “The almost paranoid necessity for these avoidances has, unfortunately, severely reduced the number of older males who are willing to interact with boys, especially on a one-to-one basis, for fear of exposing themselves to the possibility of suspicions – no matter how unfounded or unsubstantiated – of sexual interest.”
Neither affirms any kind of sexual relationship between men and boys.

ethane72

Some elaboration on saying it was a matter of pragmatic trade-offs rather than principles:
We have three main actors: the state, the parents, and the child. We may have our personal knobs for whose role should be strongest, and for which combinations prevail, but none of us in this discussion seem to have absolutes. There’s a guy on GirlChat who thinks parents have absolute rights and should be able to kill their young children if they feel like it. That’s a principled position.
When I look at the positions being expressed here, much more seems to boil down to drawing these lines and thresholds in a way that is consonant our own personal ideas of right and wrong.
Many pedophiles think children alone should be able to consent to sex without parental knowledge or notification. Some think it’s OK with parental consent, and others would extend that to cases where the parents are neglecting or abusing their child. Most of society thinks they can’t even with parental permission. It is self-evident to Furedi that adult-child sex is wrong (he doesn’t even argue the case) — he says he’s opposed to the PIE-like erosion of parental rights, but I suspect he really believes with the mainstream that parents can’t allow it and the state interest should prevail. Parental rights is the tail, and the issue of adult-child sex is the dog. One spin on the bulk of Tom’s open letter is reminding Furedi that no reasonable person has an absolute view on the issue. On the other hand, if a parent and a child decided that a good source of income would be prostitution for the 6-year-old (“if you want a pony, Sally, you’ve got to work for it”), even some (most?) pedophiles would say that had gone too far and the state should step in to prevent it.
Edmund (with me) wants parental rights in cases of religious instruction. humanbeing9876 certainly wants the child to have the right to refuse religious instruction, and maybe wants the state to keep the children from learning about religion even if parents and child agree(?).
Anti-abortion people argue for a blanket state prohibition on abortion, but when fighting tactical battles they like parental vetoes on abortion, but are concerned that parents may pressure their daughters into having abortions even if they don’t want to. Pro-choice people are against parental notification.
There’s strong sentiment for a state interest in preventing female genital mutilation. There’s a rising movement for the state to intervene to prevent male circumcision of infants. Or for letting gay youth get away from parents who are hostile to gays.
Sometimes (not so much lately in the West) the movement is away from state power, for instance when societies adopted freedom of religion. Or when it became OK in the former East Germany to teach your children a wider set of political views. But we tend to be for more state power when it matches our views on the issue and against it when it doesn’t.
So where could we really say that parental rights is anything but a tool being brought to bear for a person’s own views on whatever issue is at hand?

Edmund

“So where could we really say that parental rights is anything but a tool being brought to bear for a person’s own views on whatever issue is at hand?”
You have me lost. Perhaps I’m missing something, but if this is so, how do you explain why I fully support the right of parents to allow or refuse their 10-year-old’s wish to go sky-diving, be immersed in radical Islam or engage in sexual activity even when their decision may be diametrically opposed to that I would make for my children under the same circumstances? Which is not for a moment to say I’m disregarding Tom’s call for genuine children’s rights: with very few limitations indeed, I would support the 13-year-old’s right to decide these three things against his parents’ wishes.
Edmund, Alexander’s Choice, a boy/man love story

ethane72

I’m not saying that everyone insists other people make the exact same choices they do. I’m suggesting that broadly speaking there is a band of acceptability. It’s possible you think a 13-year-old can make all the same decisions as an adult. But maybe not… Does he have the right to have one of his limbs removed? Take on binding debt so he can gamble? But even if you think he should, I think you’d find some age at which you would want restrictions to kick in. I doubt you want a 6-year-old able to decide to go off permanently with the nice man who promises him unlimited candy, TV and no rules. On the other hand, the parents can make him stay with a relative, while the state can’t decide where he lives without extraordinary provocation. Everyone agrees that toddlers don’t have the final say on when they can cross the street.
Another take on it is that on many issues, if someone disagrees with you about how desirable something should be for adults, it will often play out in your feelings about whether children can do it with parental permission, without parental permission, or not at all. It’s a fair bet that someone who thinks sex outside of marriage is wrong will want a higher age of consent below which the sex becomes not just morally wrong but illegal.

Edmund

“Another take on it is that on many issues, if someone disagrees with you about how desirable something should be for adults, it will often play out in your feelings about whether children can do it with parental permission, without parental permission, or not at all.”
No, not I, or never consciously so. Some do this, but it is an anti-social, tyrannical impulse I believe we should all resist in ourselves. I happen to think it undesirable that people of any age devote serious time to watching game shows or team sports on television, playing video games, eating fast food, etc., etc. I would mind very much if my children did these things and I have therefore successfully arranged their lives so they come into contact with them only very rarely and briefly. At the same time, I would vigorously defend the right of another parent to let his children of any age (imho) waste their childhood these ways.

Nick Devin

Tom, I am curious about where you would draw the line between parental and child rights as relates to pedophilic conduct. Do you believe that it is wrong for pedophile to have sexual contact with a child without first getting permission from the child’s parent? Do you believe the answer depends on whether the parent is generally competent? On whether the parent is nonabusive?

Edmund

Are you sure you are not missing Furedi’s most important point?
He says “the assumption that what is in the interest of the child is different to the interests of the parent creates a conflict that can only be mediated by those possessing the moral and expert authority to pronounce on the dispute; namely, the child-saver.” This is what he seems to me to be decrying, not the idea that children should be able to decide some things for themselves.
You are replying to him with a convincing catalogue of examples of cases where children should be able to decide for themselves. I agree with you on most of them and so, as far as we know, may Furedi. But would you argue for the five-year-old’s right to refuse to brush his teeth or learn to read, or to refrain from playing alone in a swimming-pool before he has learned to swim? If not, you must surely admit there is an age at which children are too young to decide some things for themselves. The question then becomes one of who should decide with or for him, the parents or the state and its agents, the “child-savers”?
Attacking the sanctity of the parental bond by drawing attention to freakish horror stories about parents murdering their children is like condemning cohabitation because killing one’s lover or spouse is the most common kind of murder. It does not alter the general principle that parents love their own offspring infinitely more than the state ever can, and are also intimately familiar with their children’s individual needs, capabilities and weaknesses. Parents in any case have always been nature’s plan for children’s survival.
Child sex is perhaps the most obvious case where the usurpation of parental authority by the state has caused terrible injustice and misery. The state knows nothing of the individual child’s maturity, sexual desires and concomitant emotional needs, and cannot see what attendant dangers are or are not present. Just as important, it doesn’t even care except in so far as it may be politically expedient to do so.
I may be wrong, but my impression is Furedi is right in saying PIE and similar movements of the seventies appeared hostile to the family. In being so, I think they were not only wrong, but misguided. Parents are electors and will always oppose the idea of men being able to have sex with their children against their wishes. Faced however with an alternative reality where their child was in love with an older person and they knew it was entirely up to them whether to let that love run its course or to forbid or crush it, even the most prejudiced parents would hesitate to break their own child’s heart.
So I would argue there should be two ages of consent for every aspect of a child’s life, just as there are for marriage in many countries: one with and one without parental consent. And I oppose all or nearly all invasion of the child’s autonomy by the state as an abominable interference.
Edmund, Alexander’s Choice

mr p

good point peter herman was making,But where does incest come in this question?I know incest does not necessarily involve paedo/hebephilia but
as mentioned above,The nuclear family since the industrial revolution is very closed off to the outside world,And as a commenter mentioned in the youth
sexual rights video, the family has become a incestuous hot bed.
Having a vision does not mean you know how to put that vision into practice
and how far you would go with it.

ethane72

Most of these matters seem like making tough calls in borderline cases, not matters of grand principle. But I’d note:
1. Children of divorce should be listened to carefully in terms of which parent they live with, but they should not have the final say and should not be told they have that burden — for it can be a burden: causing bitter disappointment to one of two people they may love very much. I raise also the case of the father who will try to win his child’s custody with an offer of unlimited candy, no bedtimes, no need to do homework, etc. Some 7-year-old children would go for that, and I think it’s the Court’s duty to overrule the agency and expressed preferences of the child.
2. The problem with pedophiles arguing for children’s sexual freedom is not so much that they have a vested interest in the matter, but that they have been so spectacularly unsuccessful in gathering others to their cause. I’m not aware of any major divide between parents and the childless in terms of parental rights — certainly nothing that stark. The emergence of Virtuous Pedophiles is not a good sign for your view either (you have called us “Virtuous Turkeys”, but the term “Vegetarian Lions” would capture some aspects of the situation more accurately), since there you have people disagreeing with you against their own apparent self-interest.
3. One heavy bias in settling these matters is “tend to decisions that keep a child’s options open”. This explains why we would give minors the right to choose contraception, since not becoming a mother is a better match to keeping one’s options open. It’s why we intervene with suicidal children (and suicidal adults, to some degree). It matches my intuitions of why we might resist a girl’s agency at age 8 or 12 to decide to undergo female genital mutilation even if it is in line with the cultural values of her family.
4. Applying “tend to decisions that keep a child’s options open” as applied to sexual autonomy isn’t clear — I wouldn’t put much weight on the old-fashioned idea of preserving virginity until marriage. And I will specifically avoid here reopening the direct arguments over the wisdom of child sexual autonomy.
5. Children often seize the initiative and make choices they may later regret, and we should not impose draconian punishments. I think one clear application is children who upload sexual photos of themselves. But a fairly good rule of thumb society has is that other adults should not aid a child in doing things that are against parental wishes (when there is no obvious parental abuse or neglect involved). It is rightly illegal for me to take someone else’s child sky-diving without parental permission. I think it might be immoral for me as an adult to help a Jew’s 10-year-old son immerse himself in my culture of radical Islam against parental wishes. Similarly, I think there is a moral case to be made against abetting a child in engaging in sexual activity against parental wishes. All of these things are worse when they include a clear selfish benefit to the other adult, and they are worse without parental knowledge as well as against their wishes.

Edmund

“It is rightly illegal for me to take someone else’s child sky-diving without parental permission. I think it might be immoral for me as an adult to help a Jew’s 10-year-old son immerse himself in my culture of radical Islam against parental wishes. Similarly, I think there is a moral case to be made against abetting a child in engaging in sexual activity against parental wishes.”
Quite so. I agree with all of this. But doing and not doing are two sides of the same coin. It would be equally wrong of me or anyone else to stop a 10-year-old sky-diving, being immersed in radical Islam or engaging in sexual activity as long as he wanted these things and his parents agreed.
Edmund, Alexander’s Choice

humanbeing9876

The vexed question of parental authority will never be easily solved. We have such different ideas of how far it can go. For example, religion: I would disagree that a child of Jewish parents should not be immersed in Islamic culture, for the reason that no-one should be heavily influencing a child towards any religion or none. To me it is much more abusive of a child to brainwash them into particular beliefs unsupported by evidence than to engage that child in a loving, consensual, sexual relationship. The former closes the child’s mind, creates barriers between the child and those of different beliefs and atrophies the child’s natural curiosity.

Edmund

The overwhelming majority of parents both today and in recorded history have been teaching their children a religious faith. I think most of them would have said there is plenty of evidence for what they believe, whether Jesus’s resurrection or whatever. So who is to decide which beliefs there is evidence for? humanbeing9876? The government of the day? I ask this as an infidel myself. And should parents then be forbidden to teach their children not to steal if they cannot produce evidence stealing is wrong?
Those who would like to impose so invasively on other people’s children their own views on how children should be raised give a frightening indication of the sort of tyranny the family is in danger of subjection to as soon as we concede the right of outsiders to interfere.

humanbeing9876

As regards parents’ rights to insist that their own child grows up into the same religion that they follow, I am well aware of the enormous danger of the state patronisingly invading the home to decide what that child learns. These ideals always seem to end up with bossy, intolerant, middle class social workers lecturing the working class parents on how to bring up their child.
However, we need to find a better approach. It is never right for a child to even be described as a “Muslim child”, or a “Christian child” or whatever. Could there be a “free market capitalist child” or “Nietszchean child”? No, for the same reason that there should not be a religious belief system imposed. The child has been given no choice, and if the beliefs are imposed from birth, the child’s natural desire to believe his/her teachers means that the belief system is deeply inculcated. The school is the place to teach about religious beliefs in their many varieties and to give children the scientific tools to honestly evaluate each belief on its evidential validity – not on the need of the church or mosque to create new members. Do you really think it is difficult to show even the youngest child how stealing is wrong? Religion has no place in the moral universe of children or of adults. Teaching a child that some act is wrong because some vast, frightening deity will punish them, not because it is harmful to others, is itself an act deeply harmful ot a child.
As a civilised society, we should be keeping a child’s mind open and educated, not closed and indoctrinated. Victor Hugo wrote, “There is in every village a torch – the teacher; and an extinguisher – the clergyman.” The ongoing hysteria over Roman Catholic sexual abuse has hidden the much greater abuse, of religious brainwashing. Richard Dawkins, in “The God Delusion,” (p357) wrote of an American woman who had been brought up as RC. At 7yo she had been sexually abused by the priest in his car; and her little friend died in a car crash and (in her mind) went to Hell because she was a Protestant. She wrote, “Being fondled by the priest simply left the impression as ‘yucky’ while the memory of my friend going to hell was one of cold, immeasurable fear. I never lost sleep beause of the priest – but I spent many a night being terrified that the people I loved would go to Hell. It gave me nightmares.”

Edmund

This is fine as a criticism of the teaching of religion to children. As an infidel, I have taught my own children much on lines you would approve of. The more parents who hear your views the better.
However, it is unavoidable that every child is somehow led into believing some things and disbelieving others, and as regards you or anyone else wishing to force an atheistic upbringing on other people’s children, I must slightly rephrase your first paragraph:
“These ideals always seem to end up with bossy, intolerant, modernist social engineers lecturing traditionalist parents on how to bring up their child.” Only you are proposing worse than mere “lecturing.” Whence do you derive your right to do this?

humanbeing9876

Pretty straightforward really, and one in which most child lovers would agree: let the child make up their own mind, without the adult telling the child what to think. The adult role is to give the child the tools to think with, not just a book to refer to. No theist, atheist, environmentalist or capitalist should be forcing their views on to a child as The Truth, against which are ranged the evil Unbelievers. Instead should be presented Ideas, which children (given a chance) are well able to evaluate themselves. If a child chooses to dress up in a burqa or to believe that the universe was created in seven days, them that is fine, so long as they haven’t been blackmailed into such a belief for fear for Hell or of losing their parents’ love.

Linca

I just ran across this in an old entry I made in my journal:
“If a boy wants to learn the secret of life, you have to accommodate him”.
“What nature delivers to us is never stale. Because what nature creates has eternity in it.”
Isaac Bashevis Singer
Isn’t that beautiful?
Linca

Linca

There is hope and it is a traditional value: Equality.
When Susan entered the courtroom to petition for a change of legal name, she sought no special treatment.
All she wanted was to complete a simple process available to all citizens, The Judge saw things differently, denying her petition for one reason … Susan is transgender … and he was attempting to close the courthouse doors to Susan and other LGBT Citizens. Nearly 18 months later the States Court of Civil Appeals reversed the denial.
Like other recent victories in the battle for LGBT equality, the reversal brings out a reoccurring criticism from those who fear, hate or merely don’t understand our country’s growing shift toward legal equality for LGBT Americans. This criticism decries a “loss of traditional values” and warns of a resulting descent into moral chaos.
It couldn’t be more wrong.
Far from forgetting traditional values, when we reexamine established ideas about gender, sex, marriage or family, what we are really doing is thoughtfully weighing conflicting traditions against one another to determine which are truly worth passing down to our children.
This is not a new concept. In the 1860’s, a battle of conflicting American traditions ended in the abolition of slavery following the Civil War. Antebellum America had developed a strong tradition of commitment to liberty but also of pretending that African Americans weren’t people. The tradition of liberty came into fundamental conflict with the tradition of slavery. We had to choose, and though our country paid for it with 750,000 lives, we chose right. We chose equality.
In 1920, our nation ratified the 19th Amendment extending suffrage to women, deciding that our traditional commitment to democracy was more important than the traditional view of male patriarchy. We chose equality.
In 1954, the US Supreme Court chose the traditional American value of equality over the tradition of racial segregation when it made its landmark ruling in Brown v. Board of Education. We chose equality.
In 2013, the court chose equality again in U.S. v. Windsor, this time over a long tradition of legal discrimination against gay and lesbian Americans. We chose equality.
We can listen to those who decry our “loss of traditional values” every time another battle for equality is won, or we can join those who celebrate it like us. For it is only through shedding and sometimes shredding traditions like racism, bigotry and discrimination that we are able to pass down the more meaningful institutions of liberty, equality and fairness to future generations. It is these three ideas that are truly America’s great traditions.
While our current battle against discrimination is far from over as we pedosexual people so well know, the value of equality is steadily winning … not because it is a newer idea but because it is a better one.
Linca
Liberté, égalité, fraternité

Linca

Brady and his boss are friends of ours for a long . long time. He was very brave. He quit a good job with the District Attorney because he could not stand the temperament of the office he was in. A brilliant legal scholar. A good man. Thought I would lift a little of that for us. Remind us we are equal. Children are equal.
A friend of his sent that article to me last night. Wow!! was my reaction.
Liberté, égalité, fraternité for all.
Linca

Eric Tazelaar

“but the term “Vegetarian Lions” would capture some aspects of the situation more accurately”
Which aspects, Ethan? The aspect where those of us who fail to share your “virtuousness” are said to devour our prey?
Clearly, you think our position analogous to ruthless and self-serving “carnivores” who “consume” boys with a complete and amoral indifference for their welfare.
Apart from my own long-standing vegetarianism (since age 13) I find this an intriguing and provocative analogy if I interpret it correctly.
Please, do clarify if I misunderstand you.
By the way, “This American Life”, a radio show here in The States which is almost insufferably hipsterish last week featured a VirPed as a sympathetic figure.
Don’t get me wrong, much of what he related was, no doubt, eye-opening for the average listener (and for Ira Glass, the host) as well as accurate.
The parts that were less admirable were those that reinforced the boogeyman stereotypes, e.g. his horror at downloading “baby raping” porn (said to be of an infant) which some of us will recognize as being, if not entirely apocryphal, extraordinarily rare. This anecdote, as you could easily guess, necessitated breathless “trigger” warnings before its revelation.
And then there is the part where he recounts rejecting for membership in his curiously unnamed organization those applicants who had crossed the threshold into great evil, i.e. those who had had actual relationships with kids, explaining, “Frankly, we’re better than you.”
I will continue to argue that, regardless of the inadvisability of entering into a relationship with a kid in this time of “burning”, VirPeds are NOT better than us.
If anything, their perspective suffers from a lack of real world experience.
That’s not a moral failing, given contemporary circumstances, but it is still a tragic void and one which confers neither greater virtuousness nor wisdom.

humanbeing9876

I can only add my vote of agreement. The VirPed philisophy is one of total acceptance of the authorities’ disgust of minor attraction and I can never go along with that. I’m not sure how they live with such open self-loathing. For me, I am completely content to be an exclusive child lover, even though circumstances compel me to be celibate. Even if my behaviour is no different to that of a VirPed, I make no claims to moral superiority and I’ll continue working in my own small way towards social acceptance of our sexual orientation.

humanbeing9876

I suspect that the main reason for Spiked’s reluctance to publish your article is paragraph 12, in which you refer to child sexual abuse as being “on average, not psychologically harmful at all.” This is the Rubicon which must not be crossed in the media, and it was why the Rind study to which you refer was so viciously castigated. We must accept that it is extremely difficult for others who don’t share our sexual orientation to believe that any adult-child sexual relationship can be anything other than harmful to the child, whatever the level of evidence that shows such relationships can be loving, harmless and even beneficial to the younger partner.
Today’s climate of fear and refusal to understand means that academic research is stymied; do you know of any UK studies in this century into adult/child sexual relationships? And that lack of research contributes to the general level of ignorance. I would love to have some straightforward answer to this, but I do not.

Peter Herman

I may not fully understand Peterhoo’s argument. It is so easy to feel guilty about one’s self interests, especially in the realm of sexuality. But if it were not for the latter, there would be no life as we know it. Sexual attraction has other benefits than procreation and the biological diversity it makes possible. It can act as a social binder that brings joy and contentment.
And sexual desires are not the exclusive province of the adult world. Over a lifetime, I have divined through conversations the childhood desires of many of my adult acquaintances — both heterosexual and homosexual. And believe me, the sexual games that children play are indeed sexual and not just the mere result of curiosity about their bodies. Unless amnesia interferes, we should all be expert on childhood sexuality, though granted some very few of us may be entirely asexual.
Of course, social mores make things much more complicated. Children with sexual desires can easily be made to feel guilty about these and subsequently, as adults, blame any sexual childhood activity on problems they encounter in later life with invented causal links.
It is not immoral to have sexual attractions, but it is immoral to impose one’s demands on anyone. Adults are capable of negotiating their desires and so are children. It is mainly in the realm of sexuality that societies deem children incapable of doing so.
Now, to address fighting for children’s rights as self serving. Would one make the same accusation about someone fighting for the rights of oppressed people (and there are countless all over the world) who are unaware they have rights? Many live in environments in which they are made to feel that their stations in life are foreordained. In a way, even children who have more freedoms are unaware that they have potentially more rights that they can indeed handle quite well despite the accepted wisdom of the general society.
About self interest, the great Jewish thinker, Hillel, said it best:
“If I am not for myself, who will be? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?”
Paired with this other observation, I believe we have the whole answer:
“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”
If sexual desires are mutual and do not result in demonstrable harm, no guilt should ensue. When societies realize this, we may enjoy a more peaceful and emotionally productive world.

peterhoo

I have read both Furedi’s and your text Tom. To be balanced and thoughtful I must add I will continue to reflect on what both of you offer. One does not understand ‘instantly’ what is said, especially texts like those you and Furedi have written.
What I see in both of you as authors is a mix of competence and greater similariety than either is willing to acknowledge. I am saying Furedi is not a very convincing anti-pedophile, he is too good at his job to be that; and you Tom are not a very convincing fierce critic of Frank Furedi. Journalism and the internet offers up theatre from time to time and I see a bit of this in what is offered.
Personally I view this debate as an oportunity for truth telling, and that I believe is achieved by the exercise of humility on both sides. I look for Furedi to pull back from posing the minor-attracted sexual profile as principly deluded self-interest. From your end of things Tom I hope you acknowledge how minor-attracted people need to admit and take a responsible attitude regarding their self-interest. Minor-attracted people who are adult, and I want to acknowledge some who are minor-attracted in their sexual profile are still young and are moving into that increased sense of who they are as they grow older, too often skip-over, dismiss, or deny their sexual desire and attraction to the young includes manipulation and predetory aspects. They do not have that character of self delusion on their own!
I found the closing comment by Furedi very interesting, he is correct to offer a warning, not speaking about the ‘bad and dangerous’ pedophile, no there are adults with vested interests in the lives of children who pose real threats to them and their evolving sense of autonomy. It is modern society’s job to make itself aware of these people, some of whom hide behind social profiles of being the protecters of children.

peterhoo

Symetry is often very hard to get in these situations. I guess I am saying the line “I will if he will” is not a winner. So many people look at America’s behaviour and comment, “if only they would own up to what they get up to then the hostility and distrust would go down.” Minor-attracted people can be smart and show they see a way of scaling down the hatred by owning what is in their corner. That does not mean betraying one’s integrity, far from it! I read Frank Furedi as a writer you can get an intellectually credible conversation going about the way things are.

47
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
Scroll to Top