Cognitive 'distortions' and dissonance

Welcome to 2014 at Heretic TOC! No looking back over the past year, this time, or crystal ball gazing into the future. Thereā€™s so much to talk about Iā€™m just going to crack on, starting with GirlChat.
Every online minor-attraction forum is surely acutely aware their deliberations are followed with interest by law enforcement authorities and monitoring bodies such as the Internet Watch Foundation. But do they know that academic researchers have their spies too?
I canā€™t find any chat on GirlChat to suggest they know their forum was under particularly intense investigation in August 2012. If Iā€™m wrong, blame Google Advanced Search, but in the meantime letā€™s start a bit of chat about it here, because the research in question is very revealing, not just about GirlChat but about the way ā€œscienceā€ generates its ā€œknowledgeā€ of minor attraction.
The official Abstract of the research project in question somehow found its way into my database last month and at first I paid it no attention, as it is merely an unpublished Masters thesis by a postgrad at a university I had never heard of. No matter, the subject interested me, the title being ā€œContent Analysis of Cognitive Distortions in Pedophiles’ Online Forum Postsā€. The concept of ā€œcognitive distortionsā€ has long been applied to ā€œsex offendersā€ of various kinds, but has been increasingly under challenge in recent years, so I was interested to know what this postgrad was making of it in her very recent thesis, posted online last July.
It turned out that the author, one Lyndsie Johnson, of Rowan University, New Jersey, had analysed all 1713 posts by, 84 different posters, on GirlChat in August 2012. She deployed a team of four assessors to rate the material for the appearance of five different ā€œcognitive distortionsā€ as described in an influential but rather dated paper in the literature (Child Molesters’ Implicit Theories, Keenan & Ward, 1999); in the event of disagreement her own view prevailed.
I was not surprised to find, in this very junior researcherā€™s introductory chapter, some serious omissions and misconceptions. Paedophilia, for instance, was nowhere defined. She just assumed, quite wrongly, that paedophilia is synonymous with sex offending against minors of any age. Clearly, she was blissfully ignorant of the fact that paedophilia, in the medical and scientific literature, refers to attraction to prepubescent children, whereas sex offending against minors can involve adolescents as old as 16 or 17 in many jurisdictions. Nor did she show any appreciation of the fact that sex offences against children are often committed by those who resort to sex with a child or adolescent merely as a substitute when an adult is not available, so they are not paedophiles. Also, she implicitly assumed that everyone posting at GirlChat is a paedophile and thereby a likely sex offender, albeit not yet necessarily a convicted one! And she trotted out all the clichĆ©s about the supposed inevitable harmfulness of child-adult sexual encounters, again based on the older literature, with no reference whatever to the work of Rind et al., who famously (but not famously enough, obviously) exposed this as nonsense.
So far, so depressingly awful. Where were this studentā€™s supervisors when needed? The appalling thought occurs that they might have been just as weak as her, but Iā€™ll let that pass and turn to why I am commending this seeming garbage to your attention. The answer lies to some extent in her findings, describing which will necessitate a brief consideration of the so-called cognitive distortions, or alleged ā€œthinking errorsā€ in question. These are of five types. The details are unimportant for present purposes, so Iā€™ll just give a minimal summary in my own words:
ā€¢ Children as Sexual Objects ā€“ falsely seeing childrenā€™s affectionate behaviour as sexual
ā€¢ Entitlement ā€“ believing it is a childā€™s duty to please adults, including sexually
ā€¢ Dangerous World ā€“ children seen as dependably loving, in a world of hostile adults
ā€¢ Uncontrollability ā€“ blaming the child for being too desirable to resist
ā€¢ Nature of Harm ā€“ belief that sex with children is not necessarily harmful
Heretics here will have no difficulty, of course, in spotting a rather big flaw in all this. Whereas we might readily agree it would be a bit dodgy to feel kids are duty bound to give us our jollies, the same cannot be said for the belief that sex with children is not necessarily harmful: indeed, we can point to objective information from case studies in which, far from being harmful, benefits have been credibly claimed. We also know children are sexual beings, and their affectionate behaviour sometimes includes a flirtatious component, which may be merely provocative or may have downright seductive intent. In other words, some of the so-called cognitive distortions are not necessarily distortions of reality, or ā€œthinking errorsā€ at all. As noted above, the whole concept of cognitive distortion has come under challenge: the leading researchers now refer more cautiously to ā€œoffense-supportive attitudesā€ ā€“ views which are not objectively incorrect but are politically so.
Whatever we call the various heresies, though, we might expect that researchers scouring GirlChat for them would have no difficulty in spotting what they were looking for: the slightest deviation from orthodoxy could be labelled a ā€œdistortionā€ if Ms Johnson and her coding team were so minded.
But no, that is not what happened! Remarkably, very few ā€œcognitive distortionsā€ were found: only 2.45% of posts indicated cognitive distortions. The most strongly represented ones were Children as Sexual Objects (15 occurrences), Dangerous World (9) and Nature of Harm (5); Uncontrollability was seen only three times and Entitlement not at all. It is surely no great surprise, and should not worry us, that posters to a site focusing on attraction to minors would see children as sexual beings (they are) and that sexual contacts with them are not always harmful (they arenā€™t), nor that minor-attracted persons (MAPs) would see the world as hostile to them (it is, obviously). Nor should it worry us, indeed it is good news, that those engaging with MAP sites do not appear to be out of control, nor do they impose on kids a duty to do their bidding.
These findings, then, are of interest and so is what the researcher makes of them. In line with the approach taken in thousands of other studies, which she copies as faithfully as a diligent pupil doing a standard school chemistry experiment with the exact prescribed method, she gives illustrative examples of the supposed cognitive distortions where they occur in the GirlChat posts, reporting them with seemingly scientific objectivity. No opinion intrudes. Even in the concluding discussion section, where possible explanations of the findings are presented (albeit unconvincingly, with little insight) and suggestions made for further research, an air of strict detachment prevails. Remarkably, there is no querying of the cognitive distortion concept, nor any challenge to the validity of the five CD types.
At first I thought this was just zombie science: no brain, merely robotic procedure. And so it may be. But there were also tiny hints that there might be more going on than meets the eye. One clue is in the quotes from GirlChat, many of which are so eminently reasonable and sensible (to my heretical mind, at least!) that they cry out for a more engaged and imaginative response. So could there be something else holding this researcher back, other than her need to get full marks for objectivity? What about fear? We are in a Dangerous World for researchers, as well as MAPs, after all: any sign of going native and actually understanding the MAPs could be fatal at the start of a career.
What we get, in the absence of understanding, is a sort of dull, understated, puzzlement. It is conceded, for instance, that even these posters talk about more than just sex with children. It is briefly observed that ā€œmembers also discuss topics that go beyond pedophilic interests (e.g., politics)ā€, an admission that comes dangerously close to admitting MAPs might be human! Then, with Entitlement not being demonstrated in any Girl Chat posts, a concession is made: ā€œ…it may suggest that pedophiles may not feel it is the ā€˜rightā€™ of the adult partner to receive sexual pleasure from a child. Posters often describe feeling honored when a child ā€˜choosesā€™ them as a sexual partner and the love that exists between a pedophile and a child is a privilege, not a right.ā€
In the context of a 30-page report, these positive observations are only very slight. There is no blinding light on the road to Damascus here, no epiphany, no conversion. But neither is there any ā€œcognitively distortedā€ attempt to twist the data in order to arrive at the ā€œrightā€ conclusion. As I say, what we have is puzzlement ā€“ which is quite right and proper when the facts fail to meet expectations. The task then becomes one of addressing that puzzlement thoughtfully. This particular tyro scientist doesnā€™t quite get there, but the data are good, and are ā€œout thereā€ for others to see: that is how science, even when it is done by not especially clever people, is able to make progress.
A final intriguing point is that ā€œInter-rater reliability was 92.7% at the start of analysis; however, as content analysis progressed, inter-rater reliability dropped.ā€ In other words, the team assessing the cognitive distortions started off with a high degree of agreement as to what would constitute an example of cognitive distortion. However, this impressive level of agreement slumped to a lowly 14% during the course of the exercise! What this entirely new divergence of opinion suggests to me is that the assessors were actually beginning to use their brains in response to the data, querying what constitutes a cognitive distortion and perhaps whether the construct was valid at all.
Such dangerously heretical thoughts nowhere find overt expression in the paper, but the exercise must have sown confusion. While it demonstrated that MAPs were not shown to think in a cognitively distorted way, it also indicates that the researchers were suffering from another interesting mental condition, cognitive dissonance i.e. psychological conflict when presented with data at odds with oneā€™s beliefs. Given the conservative nature of their starting point, this offers the hope that they may actually be moving forwards a little, as they struggle, perhaps painfully, to accommodate the new information and make a new beginning.
Come to think of it, this theme of starting afresh is perhaps not so remote from blogging about the New Year after all! Happy 2014 everyone!

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

58 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Cyril

In a new study “Multiple regression analyses determined that higher scores on Narcissistic and Sadistic personality scales uniquely predicted both higher CSA and female rape myth acceptance.”
 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13552600.2023.2251526

It seems likely that only psychopaths can support unpopular views even if they are correct.

Cyril

A new master’s thesis on ā€œrape mythsā€ supported by the CSA survivors themselves is quite important. Victimologists admitted that children may consider themselves consenting. Is there any difference between consenting and considering oneself consenting?

https://academicworks.cuny.edu/jj_etds/292/

Cyril

when a sexual offender claims his “victim” provoked him or was the real initiator of the illegal sexual activity, it is called “cognitive distortion”. But here is a study of suspicious for scholars children “Asking peer or adult to engage in specific sexual act(s)” or “Sexually suggestive posing” in children:

Should these scholars be considered as cognitively distorted because of such claims?

Cyril

According to a new text, “Healthcare professionals investigated sexual abuse, when they identified alert signals”. It is said that “Some (children) described having disclosed this directly to someone they were talking to, using vague or unspecific language or in the form of questions (34, 45).” Interestingly, when children use vague or unspecific language to initiate sex with adults, it is rejected as cognitive distortion in sex offenders, but isn’t disclosing these cases by healthcare and law enforcement professionals through “alert signals” a cognitive distortion too?
https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.788123

Cyril

a new text against judges believing that sex offenders consider themselves harmful for children, i.e., against their guilt:

Cyril

according to a new text, non-persuading a child that (s)he was abused or even denying the abusive character of illegal sexual experience constitute the lack of “hermeneutical justice” children are claimed to have the right to:

https://doi.org/10.1080/02691728.2022.2136506Thus, struggle against freedom of speech is called justice, and non-programming children against sex life is said to be injust

Last edited 1 year ago by Cyril
Cyril

all was OK, may be someone have hacked me

Cyril

a new study on correlation between sex offending and believing in child sexuality, between pedophilic diagnosis and believing in child sexuality ā€” so that pedophilia is claimed to be diagnosed by believing in child sexuality:

Cyril

neurophysiologic correlate of believing in child sexuality:

Cyril

a new sexual criminologic study has “explored the narratives men constructed around their subjective motivations for offending, situated within the post-structuralist constructs”:

Cyril

sex offenders depict themselves as monsters during art therapy:

Cyril

neurophysiologic correlates of “cognitive distortions” in sex offenders:

Cyril

a new study on “how families, professionals and institutions use wider discourses that deny the victim/survivor, deny or minimise harm and silence by appealing to loyalty”:

Cyril

a new study on how “rape myths” influence work of police: https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.977318

Cyril

Flavia Glina, Joana Carvalho, Ricardo Barroso, Daniel Cardoso, “Lay People’s Myths Regarding Pedophilia and Child Sexual Abuse: A Systematic Review,” Sexual Medicine Reviews, 2022, ISSN 2050-0521, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.sxmr.2022.06.010. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050052122000622)

Cyril

studying “cognitive distortions” in priests charged with sex abuse: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/jols.12379

Cyril

must be charged instead of “changed”, oh my Google keyboard!

Cyril
Cyril
Cyril

studying “cognitive distortions” in MAPs by a GL form posts:

  • Nicole Cantor, Ebru Yucel, Damon Mitchell & DJ Angelone (2022) ā€˜A Content Analysis of Posts to an Online Support Forum for ā€œGirl Loversā€ā€™, Journal of Child Sexual Abuse, DOI: 10.1080/10538712.2022.2112348
tabithachurch

It never ceases to amaze me the way most people will remain oblivious to the fact that 94% of the members at GirlChat are not real pedophiles.
You’re not researching pedophiles by studying there, you’re analyzing highly educated greatly respected & admired geniuses who’ll occasionally refer to themselves as “girllovers” in order to stimulate discussion and elicit valuable responses from unwitting observers.

clovernews

Ah, ‘tabithachurch’. Who (or rather what) are you? And why comment on a blog post a year old which no-one will be watching?

jim hunter

Peter —
It is hard to imagine the pain that the murder of your friend must have caused you. I appreciate your post and agree with it entirely.
Ethan —
ā€œIn situations of extreme oppression, revolution, war and other chaos, ethics does get all messy with other considerations.ā€
Yes it does. That is precisely my point. Yet you go on to say,
ā€œBut I donā€™t think any such considerations apply to adult-child sexuality questions in modern western societies.ā€
I feel that sexual repression that is extreme and unreasonable — ā€œsurplus repressionā€ I think Marcuse called it — is a very serious matter, and is the cause of a great deal of unnecessary suffering. You do not seem to feel that it is of much importance. As far as I can tell, that is the crux of our difference.
j

ethane72

I am deeply troubled by how serious the penalties are for such things as child porn possession and apparently consensual relationships involving teens. The fact that I don’t think they should be legal is not the same thing as supporting current penalties and hysteria. I’ve gone as far as saying that if the younger participant continues to say he/she wasn’t misled and feels good about it, prosecutors shouldn’t press charges.

Sugarboy

>if the younger participant continues to say he/she wasnā€™t misled and
>feels good about it, prosecutors shouldnā€™t press charges
And where is the certainty in the law, when citizens’ criminal records are subject to a prosecutor’s whims?

peterloudon

Thank you Jim. I am certain his parents had it worse, but such was, and is, the nature of South Africa.
A slight digression. The concentration of minerals and speculative opportunity here (South Africa) over the last two centuries has had the effect of concentrating entrepreneurial characters and bloodlines in the area. They / we see the moribund state of the planet (economically, philosophically, in most other ways) right now.
I believe that the current generation of boys are faced with the option of reaching out to the dangerous mentors around them or becoming the cheap labour of whatever other culture allows its boys to do so.
In this observation lies the contradiction of Bruce Rind’s negation of his own findings, or at least his conclusions about paederasty.
The culture that unleashes its brightest boys and most risk prone mentors on the world is the one that will lead us out of the global depression, and will dominate the next era.
I leave the lead heretic (you, Tom, and not an egalitarian balancing act, please) to find / articulate the role of girls in this scenario, as my views would be correctly seen as sexist.

Ethan Edwards

I am so sorry about your experience at age 14 — it in particular and the entire situation must have been very difficult for you.
“you are endorsing the notion that, in the former South African system of apartheid, a Black youth with a reasonably intact family system should defer to apartheid and that any person who encouraged him to do otherwise would not be virtuous”
No, the argument as applied to that situation is that this black youth should resist apartheid only after getting the permission of his parents. Or more specifically, outside adults should only accept him into their movement with his parents’ permission. Also, at age 14 you were also a minor and are absolved from that same level of moral responsibility.
In situations of extreme oppression, revolution, war and other chaos, ethics does get all messy with other considerations. But I don’t think any such considerations apply to adult-child sexuality questions in modern western societies.

peterloudon

Thanks for the sympathies, Ethan.
These are all relativistic at the moment. Not that I like breaking Godwin’s Law, but what about the twelve year olds that went to the Eastern Front to face the advancing Russians at the end of WWII. Their parents had long since died or otherwise lost the capacity to allow, or give permission, and those boys fought and died for many reasons – protecting surviving family members and themselves against the advancing Russians would, in my mind, be high on the list.
Look at the boys of the world today, and of the last few generations. They cannot get an economy to start. They cannot address climate issues. They lack imagination that would inspire the people of the world to follow them into a new and exciting enterprise, say the colonisation of Mars.
What is it that has been progressively stripped out of them that now leaves reality contained in a games console which depends, primarily, on a dwindling energy supply to run.
If the coming generations of boys could identify what they were being deprived of, surely there would be no issue of permission in deciding to fight for it?
Like the South African Black, parents were dead or in jail, families were spread between urban (working) areas and rural (where the rest lived) areas. There was no context for family permission. A young man saw the injustice and either bowed to it or acted against it, frequently paying with his life.
“In situations of extreme oppression, revolution, war and other chaos, ethics does get all messy with other considerations. But I donā€™t think any such considerations apply to adult-child sexuality questions in modern western societies.” – Maybe not, but we need a Ritalin rebellion and a return to “outside” where “unsafe” teachers show boys what it is to be alive by allowing some of them to kill themselves.

jim hunter

The question of whether it is always wrong to act on intergenerational feelings is more complex than people like Goode and the virtuous p’s would have us believe. Consider this little parable.
Visualize a society dominated by the institution of slavery. Suppose that a few slaves escape, and that they are able to survive in roving bands and in small communities hidden in the wilderness. A few even manage to disguise themselves as ordinary citizens and live double lives within the dominant community. Now suppose a slave living in disguise dedicates himself to the escape of other slaves. Call him Mr. Byrd.
One day Mr. Byrd is able to have a conversation with a slave boy named Jason. He explains to Jason that the system he lives under is immoral and unnecessary, and that there is some chance of his escaping. The boy is thrilled, and though he realizes the danger, decides to take the chance. Mr. Byrd makes arrangements for the boy to meet up with Mr. Malcolm, a member of one of the roving groups. They make contact at the appointed time and place and slip away into the woods. However, while they are camping out in the forest, Jason has second thoughts. He is afraid and he misses his mother. He wants to return. Mr. Malcolm tries to talk him out of it, but to no avail.
Slave hunters catch Jason as he tries to return, and beat him severely. Jason has known nothing but slavery since birth, so the slave owners have little difficulty persuading him that it was a mistake to have listened to Mr. Byrd or Mr. Malcolm. Full of remorse Jason confesses all. Mr. Byrd is caught and condemned to life in prison. A posse is sent in hot pursuit of Mr. Malcolm. He escapes, but the woods are patrolled from then on with dogs to make sure other bad types never again get close enough to the plantations to enable others to escape. Jason suffers permanent injuries from the beatings he received, and his whole family is punished. Jason himself is watched more closely than any other slave on his plantation in case he should he ever entertain more thoughts about escaping.
Mr. Byrd sits in prison and asks himself whether he has committed a crime against an objective moral order as well as against the state. Despite his good intentions, only bad consequences have flowed from his action.
Question: Was he guilty?

Ethan Edwards

As a VP person I’ll accept the analogy but I think it supports our view. I’ll assume you are taking the fact that Jason is a child as key to the story. Your parable assumes a reasonably intact family system (not a given in slavery) with the line, “He is afraid and he misses his mother”. Mr. Byrd had the obligation to get the mother’s permission. I am confident he was guilty. If Jason were an adult he would not be guilty.
If Jason has no functioning family and Mr. Byrd takes him, then he is taking over parental responsibility and is obliged to keep Jason from returning to the best of his ability. An instance of the complication of child autonomy — he was given the choice to come, but having made it he forfeited his right to return because Mr. Byrd knows what’s going to happen.

peterloudon

Ethan, in your acceptance, you are endorsing the notion that, in the former South African system of apartheid, a Black youth with a reasonably intact family system should defer to apartheid and that any person who encouraged him to do otherwise would not be virtuous.
In this context, you are aware that I post under my own name. What you may not be aware of is that, at fourteen, I encouraged a Black fourteen year old to associate with Whites (we were secretaries of our respective Anglican Church youth groups and sought joint activities between our groups). He paid with his life, at fourteen, the official finding being that he leapt from the sixth floor windows of a police station in remorse at discovering the immoral nature of his wish to interact with Whites. Factually, he was murdered by thugs who hurled him out of the window.
Even though I had vague notions of what could happen, I do not believe I was wrong to encourage him, and I would now be considered wrong had I rebuffed his wish to integrate.

Reader

“the researchers were suffering from another interesting metal condition” – perhaps read through after using a spell-check! Many would see pedophilia as corrosive so perhaps you had a ‘ Freudian moment’ …

Sean

I’d like to add something regarding the second quote from Goode…
“respecting and valuing those paedophiles who choose self-restraint”
…this could be read as evidence of a selective morality where paedophiles whose ‘self restraint ‘ develops along heretical lines deserve no respect and have no value. Even when the heretic involved is selfless and empathetic, if he should offend sexually against a child, even with the child’s consent and trust, he would be beyond the pale outlined by Goode’s value system.
In support of Goode, I maintain that children are vulnerable to harm and voluntary sexual experiences, even for adults, can be other than benign. I argue that self restraint is always necessary in the domain of sexual expression, whether paedophilic or otherwise. For paedophiles it’s even more necessary, so I reject criticism of Goode on the basis of this quote.
The ‘egregious failures’ I refer to are more explicitly aligned with the ‘cognitive distortion’ gambit, and I regret I don’t have her books on hand to give a specific example.
Happy New Year!

Sean

Lol. Thanks for that Tom.
From my own passing familiarity with GirlChat discussions, I’d boldly claim that it is one of very few fora where authentic problems relating to physically expressed child love are openly aired and challenged, and perhaps that is reflected in the the site’s lack of support for the ‘Entitlement’ distortion. It has done far more to help me develop my own sense of responsibility to children than the threatening postures wielded by the champions of the norm.
Far from cognitively distorted, I’d rate most GirlChat content as ‘heretically’ detached and objective (disregarding the occasional flight of romantic rapture and reports on felicitous glimpses of ‘heaven’).
It’s interesting to compare and contrast the work you report here with the work by Sarah Goode a year or two back. [eg, see http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100196502/guardian-paedophiles-are-ordinary-members-of-society-who-need-moral-support/%5D Goode benefited from a deal of trust from GirlChat members and (according to her published work, corresponded with some). She says some wise things, such as this:
===[ For Goode, though, broader, societal change is needed. “Adult sexual attraction to children is part of the continuum of human sexuality; it’s not something we can eliminate,” she says. “If we can talk about this rationally ā€“ acknowledge that yes, men do get sexually attracted to children, but no, they don’t have to act on it ā€“ we can maybe avoid the hysteria. We won’t label paedophiles monsters; it won’t be taboo to see and name what is happening in front of us.”]===
===[ We can help keep children safe, Goode argues, “by allowing paedophiles to be ordinary members of society, with moral standards like everyone else”, and by “respecting and valuing those paedophiles who choose self-restraint”. Only then will men tempted to abuse children “be able to be honest about their feelings, and perhaps find people around them who could support them and challenge their behaviour before children get harmed”.]===
One place where men can be ‘honest about their feelings’ is GirlChat, and one place they cannot is where ever these feelings are invalidated by a priori judgments based on abstract dogmas.
Nevertheless, Goode herself is guilty of some egregious failures in her work, such as failing to recognize the limitations of her own artificially narrow perspective. In her books she makes similar appeals to ‘cognitive distortion’ as an alternative to any real engagement with thoughtful ideas that conflict with her ideology and dogma.
So I think it’s best to see the charge of ‘cognitive distortion’ as a content free rhetorical gambit employed by people caught in an intellectual vacuum in order to evade engagement with particular ideas. That powerfully suggests a lack of any authentic argument against those ideas.

Sugarboy

Do you remember the American Psychological Association’s turnabout as a result of the condemnation of Rind’s meta-analysis by the USA’s Congress?
Initially, the APA published the research because it lived up to their standard, but after the condemnation, the APA not only publicly regretted that they publicized the meta-analysis, but also stated that children are severely harmed by sexual contacts with adults, that these contacts are illegal, that they can never be condoned and blah blah blah, and this in spite of the fact that the very same meta-analysis, that was found to be scientifically correct, had come to the opposite conclusion.
Well then, and why is Sugarboy talking about this in this thread? Because this is one of the most striking examples of cognitive distortion related to adult-child sexuality… That being said, happy new year to all you heretics!

A.

Really interesting topic!
‘Falsely seeing children’s affectionate behaviour as sexual’ — yes, I expect there’s some of that sometimes. ‘Children are there to please adults’ strikes me as wildly off the mark: you’re far more likely to read melodramatic claims by Paedophile Joe that he’d do anything to protect a little girl. ‘Dangerous World’ seems a bit sweeping to describe a view of “children as dependably loving, in a world of hostile adults”. The world is not made up entirely of adults — especially from a child-lover’s point of view! But hey, they’re not wrong anyway: it is indeed a dangerous world out there for paedophiles.
This view of children as loving and wonderful ‘angels’ or ‘gifts from God’, as opposed to all those nasty adults whose creativity and joy of living has been totally lost — you do see that, yes, and it always bothers me a bit, but who’s asking me? If you feel ill-at-ease with other adults but get along like a house on fire with nine-year-olds, well, fine, go do your thing, though I’d advise you to have some adult backup, in the form of friends or family, on hand for when you need it. The view that Children are Good and Adults are Bad is this taken to the extreme: an exaggerated, black-and-white way of thinking which comes about inevitably in a culture where the adult world persecutes paedophiles and a paedophile can go for months or years longing to be around kids but never getting to talk to one.
I did once read on a GL forum a discussion of when a little girl is ready for intercourse. That kind of got me in the solar plexus. I used to be a little girl and I’ve had intercourse. Intercourse is, it seems, very different for the female partner: any time, if things don’t go right, there will probably be pain and there may be bleeding and infection. You are also emotionally vulnerable when you allow someone to put a part of their body inside your body, especially if they are bigger, heavier, faster, stronger and more aggression-prone than you, perhaps especially if they are an adult and you are not. Then there’s all the cultural baggage and overhype surrounding intercourse and Giving Yourself and Your First Time and Dirty Sluts. I’m willing to believe that some preteen girls are ready for sexual intercourse with adults, because people vary widely, but I am convinced that a large majority are not.
But then I thought: is this kind of wishful thinking actually put into practice, to the detriment of little girls? The evidence strongly suggests that it is not, that the overwhelming majority of paedophiles do not have insertive sex of any kind, anal, vaginal or oral, with children, and that the younger the child is, the more this holds true. These paedophiles don’t, either, tend to express strong dissatisfaction with their sex lives over refraining from these kinds of sex. They content themselves with other activities, such as cuddling, stroking and masturbation. They are on average as decent, as caring, as responsible and as aware of and responsive to other people’s feelings as the population at large, and this shows in the way they lead their sex lives. What sexually frustrated, socially repressed people say on a message board that’s the one place where they can let off steam is not much to go by.

Ethan Edwards

I fully support the idea that women are programmed to feel vulnerable when they have intercourse, but I speculate that the reason is evolutionary adaptation rather than physical geometry. Women’s reproductive fitness is crucially linked to having a man who will help provide resources for a baby, so the idea of being impregnated by the wrong man or at the wrong time is potentially a big deal, and women have evolved accordingly. Think about another case of putting something in your body — food. Both genders accept that as entirely normal without psychological implications.

A.

I expect that what you say does play a big part, at least in general. We have also all, men and women, evolved to feel vulnerable when we’re around someone bigger and stronger, and that must be coming into play as well. Then there’s the fact that most women — of course with many exceptions — do not reach orgasm from intercourse alone, because they’re not built that way: for many of us, it’s just not the biggest deal out of the sexual activities, at least in purely physical terms, so we may need more of an incentive to do it! Terri Conley of the University of Michigan conducted a experiments fairly recently which appear to demonstrate that while women are less likely than men to accept an offer of casual sex with an attractive opposite-sex stranger, part — but only part — of the difference disappears if 1.) the women feel safe — i.e. they are not afraid of being raped or murdered and 2.) they think they will have a good sexual experience, i.e. not just intercourse that gets him off but not her. Unfortunately it seems that her papers are not available free.

A.

Well, here’s a discussion and critique of Conley’s research from an evo-psych point of view: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2011/03/11/gender-differences-accepting-casual-sex-proposals-rp/
There is definitely, as you say, a big sex difference when it comes to sexual selectiveness, and whichever way you slice it, and whichever culture you’re in, that difference will be there, because it’s rooted in evolutionary psychology. But like all sex differences it applies only on average. I’m thinking here of three young women I have known, all of whom very enthusiastically sought out casual sex with strangers. Their male opposite numbers surely exist too.

A.

Knew I was forgetting something — food — you are in sole control of that process, there’s the big difference.

Ethan Edwards

A: I don’t think I disagree with you on the issue at hand. If anything, I’m more inclined to think there may be harm from non-penetrative sexual activity for young girls. Good intentions on the part of a pedophile aren’t enough. I dislike arguments on the boards that are roughly, “How can anything be harmful if it feels good and you consent to it?” I relate it to how grown women can have great sex with a man, but if he said he was being true to her and hoped to marry her some day but was clearly lying, then the sexual activity in its context was harmful. Sex is special, and engaging in it when you don’t know what it is or what it means to adults is uneasy ground.
I am all in favor of women living their sexualities in whatever way works for them, however promiscuous and casual they want to be.
Regarding saying the food analogy is bad because you’re in control, you did premise this discussion on the fact that the female “allowed” sex to take place, and I take that to mean that she allowed whatever specific things happen next as well. Women are sometimes on top and in direct control too.

peterhoo

In quite informal discussions with academics I find there is this move to drop reference to pedophilia and simply refer to sex offenders. My reading of this move is it shows how ideology can shape all talk and dictate what questions can be asked. It is not just lazy, it is what I would call ‘mindfully narrow’. Tom you seem to see light here in the thesis abstract your review here, a ray of hope, I am less optimistic than you on this. Let’s hope you are right and I am wrong.

king log

I wonder if she also monitors Heretic TOC? If so then she should be grateful to Tom for this lucid critique of her work.
But it goes to show to what an extent those of us who post on forums such as GC are on display. And how, consequently, we have a duty to demonstrate that we’re thoughtful, caring and ethically-concerned humans, and not the salivating, goggle-eyed monsters that the media portray us as.
I wonder why she chose GC? There are other forums out there where I suspect she wouldn’t have got quite as favourable results, results that may have better fitted her preconceptions.

Filip Schuster

“Nor did she show any appreciation of the fact that sex offences against children are often committed by those who resort to sex with a child or adolescent merely as a substitute when an adult is not available, so they are not paedophiles.”
This sounds a little bit like we have 1 % paedophiles and if one of the other 99 % has sex with a child he was drunk or had no adult partner. But: According to the mean value of six phallometric studies about “normal” men from the society 22 % of these men are more or equally sexually aroused by children up to 13 years than by adults. And about 37 % of “normal” men have a “pedophile index” >= 0,8. But if Lyndsie Johnson is infected so much by mad stupid “science”, why not just a little bit the worlds biggest paedophilia expert too šŸ˜‰ Anyway Tom: Happy new year too!

Filip Schuster

Hi Tom, a lot of paedophilia-“scientists” have a loss of reality and can not believe that children are sexual and that lots of “normal” men are sexually interested in children. ThatĀ“s why they say believe a man has to be drunk or has to miss an adult sexual partner otherwise he would not be interested to have sex for example with a 12-year-old girl. This wrong view was a little bit apparent in the sentence I cited from you, at least from my point of view. By the way, because you like the book: A german translation of “Positive Memories” from T. Rivas is ready and it looks it will be published soon in the internet.

Phil

‘in this very junior researcherā€™s introductory chapter, some serious omissions and misconceptions. Paedophilia, for instance, was nowhere defined. She just assumed, quite wrongly, that paedophilia is synonymous with sex offending against minors of any age.’ – outstandingly ignorant cow. (Sorry I have nothing more constructive to offer at this time.)

58
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x
Scroll to Top