Title IX: discrimination against discussion

Professor Thomas K. Hubbard, a leading expert on sexuality in Ancient Greece and Rome, is a busy man. I caught up with him early last month at Edinburgh University, where I heard him presenting a paper at the annual conference of the Classical Association. More about that later, but first we must whisk him off back to his own seat of learning, the University of Texas, Austin, where, later in the month, he was giving a speech to welcome participants at another conference, this time one he had organised himself, on a theme very much about our own time and culture.
Titled “Theorizing Consent: Educational and Legal Perspectives on Campus Rape”, this two-day event brought together a range of professionals to discuss sexual consent and so-called “campus rape culture”, a term signifying the dubious but very high-profile belief that sexual harassment and rape are rife at colleges and universities. Along with sensationalist media pressure and an unhelpful legislative background, it is a doctrine that has thrust upon university administrators responsibility for policing student sexual conduct to an unprecedented degree and led to disciplinary action for alleged misbehaviour in a number of cases where the accusations turned out to be false.
It is a poisonous atmosphere, which is why Hubbard felt it a matter of urgency to focus serious debate upon it. As well as wreaking unjustified disgrace on those wrongly accused, potentially blighting their entire future, the very purpose of academic life is threatened. Tasked with a responsibility to promote a rape-free environment on campus, administrators are under pressure to police how rape is discussed: but without freedom of expression and thought how can classroom educators  teach and discuss the ethics of sexual consent as encountered in history, literature, the arts, and social research? How can free and objective discussion be promoted in an environment of mandatory “trigger warnings” about material that some students might deem sensitive or objectionable?
Claire Fox, director of the Institute of Ideas, in London, recently drew attention to an American series of short videos, featuring a collection of mainly young female school-leavers nervously about to open envelopes and emails: would they or wouldn’t they get a university offer? They go on to read aloud fictitious college admissions letters. The letters tell the school leavers they have been accepted, which ought to be great news. In line with this, the letters offer congratulations and talk about the “exciting” experiences that can be expected in their new life on campus.
But then comes the hit. Each of the Unacceptable Acceptance Letters films has a different monstrous scenario, read out matter-of-factly, as though it were the norm: “You’ll be raped in your first semester and as a result will attempt to take your own life in the next.”
The facts do not support this scary propaganda, but that does not mean it is ineffective. The paranoia, and overwhelmingly anti-male sexism, are now deeply entrenched on both sides of the Atlantic. Also, as Fox points out, even young children are now being eyed suspiciously in British schools as would-be perpetrators of abuse. She writes that “in 2016, some primary schools discourage kiss-and-chase games, prohibit hugging, view the innocent interactions between children playing doctors and nurses through the distorted lens of abuse.”
Now, concern over the protection of little children is one thing. Whatever one’s misgivings about the present state of the laws that supposedly protect them, it is overwhelmingly obvious that kids are vulnerable to abuse. The infantilisation of university students, whose tender ears must be guarded against even hearing rape discussed in class, is quite another.
How we have arrived as this sorry state of affairs inevitably fell within the purview of Hubbard’s conference. He told me all the sessions would be video recorded and released for public viewing, so in due course we will have access to the participants’ experiences and insights on this. In the meantime, I can report that an excellent article by Elizabeth Nolan Brown very clearly delineates some key features which have led to “rape culture” and “trigger warnings” figuring so strongly in the lexicon of campus life.
Brown describes the entrenched bureaucratization of sex in America, a phenomenon all the more remarkable for taking root in a country that prides itself as “the land of the free”. In a classic case of mission creep, it has come about through state intervention initially aimed at stopping sex discrimination. Basing her article on an academic paper by Harvard Law School professors Jacob Gersen and Jeannie Suk for a forthcoming issue of the California Law Review, Brown’s story begins way back in 1972, when the Educational Amendments of that year introduced the now notorious Title IX. In what was a perfectly reasonable measure at a time when women faced serious discrimination in study opportunities, and academic employment, it decreed that “no person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance”.
The grievance procedures set in place to ensure compliance “have today become a lever by which the federal bureaucracy monitors schools’ policies and procedures regulating sexual behavior”, wrote Gersen and Suk.
This is where it gets really weird. What started with the benign intention of according women equal academic opportunities now begins to morph into a ball-crushing instrument of torture aimed in effect at reducing the sexual opportunities of men, putting in peril not just would-be rapists (who are quite rightly imperilled in any case by the criminal law) but even ordinary flirting, or respectful moves to invite someone out on a date.
This came about in the 1990s through pushing the argument that sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination because it creates a “hostile environment” for women, making it less safe for them to get an education and thus potentially deterring their free participation in it. If Title IX had only ever been applied to genuine cases of harassment, the argument would be a good one. But by this time the tide of victim feminism was running so strong that at least in retrospect it seems bureaucrats would have been bound to push the machinery of Title IX much further.
In 2011, the Office of Civil Rights (OCR), the arm of the US Department of Education tasked with Title IX upkeep, started including “sexual violence” as a form of sexual discrimination. This so-called “violence” is a term that has been used to include not just clearly violent assault but also the use of “violent” language, a concept which has been stretched to include “unwelcome comments about appearance”. OCR has offered guidance suggesting that academic institutions address “risk factors” for sexual violence including exposure to pornography, and having a “preference for impersonal sex”, thus taking newly restrictive government-generated norms about sexual behaviour into the lives not of children but of young adult students, as well as their teachers, and also mature students.
The serious implications of all this for free speech were brought out dramatically in the case of Laura Kipnis, a professor at Northwestern University. An article she wrote in the Chronicle of Higher Education criticizing Title IX was itself reported as a possible violation of Title IX! A complaint filed with Northwestern’s Title IX office against Kipnis, argued that her essay had had a “chilling effect” on students’ ability to report sexual misconduct, thus indirectly contributing to a “hostile environment”.
It comes to something when the language of safety and protection are used to suppress discussion, in a university, of all places, of important issues. The complaint was eventually dismissed after a 72-day investigation, but not before the “chilling effect” on free speech had sent a shudder down the spine of the academic world and those concerned with the health and vigour of public discourse more widely.
Kipnis was the keynote speaker at Hubbard’s conference, which also focused on the contentious doctrine of “affirmative consent”. This holds that for sexual consent to be valid it must be explicit. Instead of spontaneous love-making, a prior contract of agreement, so to speak, has to be made and unambiguously declared. This is not the time to go into that debate. I will just nod respectfully towards a couple of commentators here who have voiced their support in the past for affirmative consent, particularly in the case of children’s relationships with adults. I blogged on this theme last July, in Negotiating a little girl’s knickers down; and consent in the context of children was ably explored here in a guest blog, The staircase has not one step but many, by “Lensman” in the following month.
Maybe one day Prof. Hubbard will find time in his busy schedule for a conference on the age dimension of consent, especially as regards the suppressed narratives of consenting juveniles. The theme is likely to become increasingly urgent in the academic world, not least because the current “protective” coddling of young people, corralling them into “safe spaces” rather than a “hostile” environment of uninhibited debate, could well lead to demands for an increase in the age of consent in the UK to 18 and in the US to perhaps 21, thus putting even greater pressure on campus administrators to police students’ sex lives.
With this dread possibility hovering at the back of my mind, it seemed like a good idea to get myself up to Edinburgh to meet Tom Hubbard, whose earlier conference a couple of years ago titled “Sexual Citizenship and Human Rights: What Can the US Learn from the EU and European Law?” was featured in my blog Deep in the weird heart of Texas. I wanted to meet him anyway, not least as we have a mutual friend in retired history professor William A. Percy, for whom I have undertaken quite a bit of work as a freelance research assistant in recent years – work that has involved me in getting to grips with Tom’s own field, especially as regards the distinct turn towards “family values” in the Athens of Socrates’ last years – a time when old customs came under critical scrutiny with such astonishing rapidity as to bear some comparison with the strictures of our own times.
Fortunately, we had plenty of time to talk about Ancient Greece over dinner and drinks on the day before  the conference got under way, although in conversation with an expert of his stature I was largely in a questioning and listening mode. Like the peripatetic philosophers of old, too, we talked while we walked, so far as catching our breath would allow, over the summit of the city’s rugged little local “mountain”, Arthur’s Seat. Attendance at Tom’s lecture on “Timarchus’ Body as Rhetorical Evidence” was also enlightening, showing how a legal orator in Ancient Athens could get away with character assassination of an accused person, using their bodily appearance as “proof” of their debauchery in ways that even today’s shameless false accusers might envy!
 

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[…] in Wales, hundreds of miles from where I live. Supporters also kindly sponsored my attendance at a classics conference at Edinburgh University in April and the Battle of Ideas debate forum at the Barbican, London, in […]

A.

On the US ‘regime of choice’ versus the Russian ‘regime of fate’ in romantic relationships: https://aeon.co/essays/russia-against-the-western-way-of-love
In this video from 2013 http://www.freedominapuritanage.co.uk/regulating-relationships-emotional-abuse-and-violence/ , Helen Reece and Anna Percy discuss “new domestic violence legislation that expands the definition of DV to include ’emotional abuse’ and ‘coercive control’ “. Reece really doesn’t like it, and I guess we should listen to her, as she is “a Reader in Law at the LSE. Her main teaching responsibilities and research interests lie in Family Law. Her monograph Divorcing Responsibly was awarded the Socio-Legal Studies Association Book Prize in 2004, and her article ‘Losses of Chances in the Law’ won the Wedderburn Prize in 1997.”

A.

I am inclined to wonder also: what does all of this have to do with the rise of online dating?
Online dating is used in many countries, but, I think, above all in the US. It is huge. Match.com is for sobersided professionals looking to settle down behind a white picket fence. EHarmony is for religious social conservatives. JDate is for Jews looking to date within their religion. PlentyofFish attracts a more working-class demographic. Grindr is for gay men. On Bumble only women may message first. OKCupid is for trendy youngish urbanites — or was: these days, I am told, it’s being increasingly supplanted by Tinder and Coffee Meets Bagel. I’m most familiar with OKCupid, since I’ve known quite a lot of people who conducted their sexual and romantic lives exclusively through it and wouldn’t have dreamt of dating or finding casual sex partners any other way. Lots of people like it because it is free and detailed: as well as photos, people post a fairly detailed self-summary, a list of their favourite bands, “five things I couldn’t live without”, “message me if”, “I’m looking for (casual sex, short-term dating, long-term dating…)” and so on. Users also can, and are encouraged to, answer questions including “is a woman obligated to shave her legs?”, “have you ever had sex on the first date?” and “how sexually adventurous are you?” as well as plenty of questions not about sex. They get to see others’ answers to these questions, and can mark down how they’d like a potential partner to answer and weight the importance of a particular answer to a particular question, from “mandatory” to “somewhat important” to “not at all important”. The guessing games of traditional dating are avoided: cards are on the table from the start.
Some people don’t get on with online dating, finding that they prefer to meet people in person first and let things develop organically. Some even object to it on moral grounds, saying that it encourages a ‘sweet shop’ or ‘new car specs’ approach to other human beings. But for some socially awkward acquaintances of mine, it has been a boon, allowing them to shine in writing before having to impress in person, and to meet people far more easily than they were able to do in the dismal round of bars and bookshops.
What, in any case, is traditional dating? Well before online dating took off, dating was more formalised in the US than in many other places. People from other cultures are often baffled by the notion of meeting a near stranger for dinner as the start of a fixed set of steps to be gone through — “third date is the sex date” is one you often hear. Surely, these people say, dating is what you do *when you already know* that you like each other, not *to find out whether or not* you like each other? They still take it for granted that most people will meet potential partners through their circle of friends or at work — dating at work is often discouraged in the US on pragmatic grounds: “don’t shit where you eat” — or during undergraduate studies or in grad school or even secondary school, and that relationships will grow naturally from there.
And indeed, even in the US undergrads may be less likely to use online dating than most other groups, because they’re surrounded by a pool of potential partners. According to this article, however http://dailybruin.com/2014/02/15/online-dating-app-tinder-gains-popularity-among-college-students-2/ , half of the people on Tinder in 2014 were university students 18-24. I bet it’s very often used for finding casual sex partners, since it’s based on photos only, no text. And, again, it reduces, though certainly doesn’t eliminate, opportunities for misunderstanding. Is the complicated, in-person social dance of do-they-like-me-or-not? and are-they-into-what-I’m-into? becoming a bit of a lost skill? Is that a bad thing?

A.

Yep, something for everyone except MAPs. I forgot to mention FetLife, which is for sadomasochists et al., and helps to avoid that awkward and disappointing moment when you find out that your new date has a major spanking and PVC fetish you don’t share…
When Kevin Clash, who voiced Elmo on Sesame Street, was accused in 2012 of sex with teenaged boys, one woman commented on MetaFilter: “I accompanied more than one high school friend to meet older dudes they met on the internet when they were 14-15 (to make sure they weren’t ‘creepy’ in the parlance of us high schoolers). Those relationships were short-lived and sexual, but when I’ve spoken to my friends about them now, they’re spoken of as consensual dating experiences.” I think young teenagers have been picking adults up on the Internet ever since it was plain-text chatrooms. Which, along with sheer desperation, would help to explain why so many people get caught up in stings when police pretend to be teens looking for sex online: it does happen, it might be true…

Dissident

One of the interesting problems with these app’s, Tom, is that you can fall foul of the age taboo even if you”re seeking partners of legal age. As I’ve noted before, the legal alternative I have often used is to seek to date younger women in the age range of 18-24… which is oftentimes college girls. However, unless you can find an app that caters to people with age disparate preferences (albeit within the legal range), people like me are not going to have much luck with these apps. Even if the younger woman in question does find the older guy attractive and to have a lot in common with them, you’re apt to hear things like, “but sorry, I’d feel weird if I dated a guy your age…” or, “…but my parents would give me hell for dating you!”, as well as having most of their same-aged friends refuse to accept you based on misguided “concern” for the young woman in question, which is really just a mask for their own prejudices; assuming that a guy my age dating a woman that age must have negative intentions rationalizes that treatment of me in their eyes. This is why age segregation in the realm of dating and even common friendships operates even outside the touch of the law.

A.

You were at the back of my mind actually…I was thinking of the many women who won’t date a man whose desired age range doesn’t include his own age, and saying to myself, “I wonder how Dissident manages?”
I know there have been sites specifically aimed at connecting older and younger gay men.

Dissident

Hi, A! As for the question of how someone like me manages? Not easily with these common dating apps and personal sites. If I’m honest about my age in my profile (and I think honesty is important in a relationship), I’m going to get a plethora of responses from mature women whom I… do not find attractive in any way, could never be intimate with, and do not share many social interests. Younger women on these conventional apps and sites are primarily looking for guys their own age, and will usually only make exceptions with older men who are quite nice looking (that’s not me; I’m just an average specimen) and at least borderline wealthy (also not me). So I basically have to look for a few needles in a very large haystack and hope I hit paydirt.
There are a few personal sites (not yet any apps which I’m aware of) that cater to legal age disparate people of heterosexual inclination. There are many young gerontophiles or geronto-curious females of legal age to be found there, but the problem for me is, the competition is incredibly fierce. The young women on these personal sites tend to overwhelmingly go for men in their 40s and 50s who look like George Clooney. Again, I’m only average in the looks department and I also look much younger than my age, which is ironically no advantage in such an environment; the younger women there tend to go for mature men who look their age but are nevertheless very handsome and in fit shape (again, think George Clooney or Johnny Depp). Then there are other legal age disparate dating sites where the young women are overtly seeking “sugar daddy’s” to take care of them, and that means having a lot of money and accepting the fact that these women are just making an extended business contract with you.

A.

Thanks for that detailed report from the trenches. Sounds rough. Good luck.

Sapphocidaire

“Even if the younger woman in question does find the older guy attractive and to have a lot in common with them, you’re apt to hear things like, “but sorry, I’d feel weird if I dated a guy your age…” or, “…but my parents would give me hell for dating you!”, as well as having most of their same-aged friends refuse to accept you based on misguided “concern” for the young woman in question, which is really just a mask for their own prejudices; assuming that a guy my age dating a woman that age must have negative intentions rationalizes that treatment of me in their eyes.”
Ha! It’s true that love really is blind, then! Women are jealous and recognise that men pursuing young girls undercuts their own power as they themselves do age. Especially, now that they are no longer insured through marriage “to have and to hold” for the purpose of providing a stable environment of companionship for the raising children. Peter Hitchens has pointed to the huge industry for womens’ make-up and anti-age creams as a consequence of this.
Never underestimate the extent to which simple jealousy is oiling the gears of the abuse industry. I shall repeat: never underestimate the extent to which simply jealousy is oiling the gears of the abuse industry.

Sapphocidaire

“… I gather a lot of underage gay boys are now using Grindr to meet men.”
With respect, that’s not true. Sounds like a Riegelesque fantasy involving his millions of boys and men who make up a secret paederast underground. There have been a few reports of boys meeting up with men, but it is certainly not the case that gay boys are in any significant numbers using the internet to meet men. Actually, a scan of gay online communities reveals that gay boys are mostly actively hostile to paedophiles. The GYC was better years ago for paederasts, which is why it was shut down and then reintroduced with age constrictions by relative groupings. Oh, I was active on that site and most of the times I messaged boys they didn’t reply or else were extremely hostile, one fifteen year old boy from Spain calling me a paedophile, and I was still so young. Of the boys who spoke to me only a trickle were interested in me sexually, and that worried me at the time, because I soon realised they were “cam whores”, and I thought I was going to get arrested in a sting. Of course, I never did anything illegal, but it’s the way we are brought up now to believe. Oh, and I am PERFECTLY attractive: shame I can’t post a pic to prove it !

A.

This do in the meantime? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866104/ About two-thirds of the way down, second paragraph above the ‘Early Sexual Experiences’ sub-head, just above table 2.

Dissident

There is indeed no big secret “underground” of gay boys trying to “hook up” with gay men, but there certainly is a significant minority of them who have gerontophilic tendencies. However, let us keep in mind that today is not the 1970s, and the boys you would meet on today’s online dating services and apps were born and raised in a much more conservative era – not in regards to vanilla homosexual relationships, but definitely in regards to crossing the age barrier. The majority of them who lack a preferential attraction for adults have been heavily socially conditioned to perceive Kind people as monstrous predators. Since these sites and apps are not geared specifically towards age disparate relationships, the vast majority of gay boys there will have a same-age preference, and will see themselves as having no good reason to question the prevailing belief orthodoxy. They will not exactly have anything to gain in their social circles by talking open-minded on the issue, nor by doing the requisite research required to “break” with the orthodoxy and risk peer derision and possible parental intervention on their freedom by doing so.
Hence, those who may have been openly adult-curious during the ’70s will now see it as “weird” or vile to go against that thinking today. But BLer’s who have congregated in places where they meet and discuss matters with each other will often have gay or bisexual boys with gerontophilic preferences trying to meet them there, to socialize with these men and get attention from them if nothing else. As another good example, during the 1980s when the “pedophile” hysteria had yet to take over the mental zeitgeist in the Netherlands like it had by then in America and Britain, researcher Theo Sandfurt was able to find and interview several homosexual male couples who were having intergenerational relationships, with the boys in question often being adolescents under 16. But since Grindr is obviously not designed to cater to BLer’s and boys who love BLer’s, you are going to find few if any boys there with a significant interest in adults, certainly not enough to go against the party line in their social circles. The same with online communities. And as you noted, sites like the GYC have since been virtually “purged” of BLer and boy gerontophile presence, as have the Yahoo user groups created for that purpose in the earlier days of the Internet (several years ago, Yahoo first removed all user rooms, and later completely removed even the chat rooms that the administration created and ran, and I suspect this was a major reason why they did so).

Sapphocidaire

Sure, I mean there is a trickle of “gay” boys who are preferentially attracted to adult men on internet. A “significant minority”, not by any reasonable subjective standard, and certainly not enough to cause a crisis in the identity of gay youth, although a few of these boys will inevitably grow up to be pederasts, which is kinda amusing because they’ll go from being a mascot in the vanguard of liberalism to the very enemy of modernity, to be stamped out genocidally. Queer theorists who have addressed the dominance of adult/adolescent homosexual relations in the past regard it as having occurred through a distortion created by gender inequality. As you know, boys today in the West are teenagers, a social identity constructed very recently by the Marxist elite and which eschews the idea of them wanting to be adults. And as you know, in the past boys were initiated into adult male society through being apprenticed to men. The idea of a boy wanting to be around older male company, and ride in their cars and so on, is just a corny thing that you see in old films now. Most boys probably want to be teenagers ( I shan’t say boys, an obsolete category) forever, hence the weird infantalisation of young men. I listened to a few of them speaking at a bus stop and they literally sounded like seven year olds (though less interesting, as I’m sure paedos see characteristics I might not). Yes, we are in the planned society where boys and men are carefully alienated from each other in order to poison the groundwater and make stagnant the wellspring of genius that pours from masculine congress, so that the lesser woman can rule over the earth. When will the genocide stop? By the way, I have “cruised” for boys when I was about nineteen in London and elswhere, and there were no boys there either, so I don’t really know what you mean by “BLer’s who have congregated in places where they meet”. Perhaps you mean gay youth groups. This is possible. Some gays disgustingly want boys while publicly hating boylovers. Stephen Fry a good example. When I finally discovered that gays in the seventies and eighties had loved boys but now eschewed them for men, attacking boy-lovers in the process, it was my Charleton Heston moment at the end of Planet of the Apes, because once I’d learned about the Greeks and that Lord Byron and others loved boys I had always hoped that there might be a large number of men who felt the same way as me and who could somehow and inevitably “come out” in the future. Whatever. It seems clear that boys in the past who went with men weren’t “gay” as such, but wanted the company and friendship of men in order to be inducted into their society ( and gifts to make them happy ( which is a good thing!) ), as well as enjoying the physical sensation of sex.
As for “conservative” having anything to do with today’s attitudes. It isn’t disapproving churchmen who are “denying the sexual rights of children” or some such Marxist nonsense regularly spouted on these forums, but men and women who cloak themselves in science and who are in favor of the sixties/seventies ideas of smoking drugs legally, pornography being legal, being impolite towards authority, disrespecting parents and who listen to the music of Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix and The Doors. Conservatives tend to be more tolerant of even behaviour they think is terrible and should be illegal, because they recognise these things happen inevitably. Hence why it is possible to be discreetly “gay” in Muslim countries.
As for the seventies, most working class young people were still working in factories. It was the spoilt middle-classes who were living it up at Woodstock. In the upheaval there was a brief coming to surface of all kinds of behaviour, as happens in revolutions. A breakdown in society, mass starvations and megadeath are our last hope for ending the rise of the Planet of the ApeWomen, or intervention by an advanced boyloving race of extraterrestrials.

Dissident

Hi, Cid! (Can I call you Cid?) Thank you for all this food for thought 🙂 I have some responses, but I’m going to do my best to observe brevity.
Sure, I mean there is a trickle of “gay” boys who are preferentially attracted to adult men on internet. A “significant minority”, not by any reasonable subjective standard, and certainly not enough to cause a crisis in the identity of gay youth,
Oh I greatly question that, Cid. I do not think gerontophilia is any more rare or unusual than pedophilia and hebephilia. The online MAP community has met many of them of both genders on various of our forums through the years, and I’ve dated my share of younger women of legal age who had gerontophiliac inclinations. There were considerably more of them online during the days when Yahoo had their chat rooms. Where they are now in cyberspace, my guess is they are mostly scattered about numerous places. I also believe they do not “rock the boat” in the gay youth community because their lack of civil rights make it a very dangerous thing to do, and any of their friends who know about their inclinations may believe they are doing them a “favor” by telling their parents, teachers, etc.
As you know, boys today in the West are teenagers, a social identity constructed very recently by the Marxist elite and which eschews the idea of them wanting to be adults.
I concur with Tom that you are more likely referring to Social Darwinists, since I’m a devout Marxist and never do I make statements like that or harbor such a view. Also, the term “Marxist” has been applied to numerous different, often conflicting, ideologies over the course of the 20th century (and even to some extent before) that really have nothing to do with Marx and Engels’ original conception of a classless, moneyless, and stateless society. I’m not sure what specific “version” of the word you were referring to, though.
And as you know, in the past boys were initiated into adult male society through being apprenticed to men. The idea of a boy wanting to be around older male company, and ride in their cars and so on, is just a corny thing that you see in old films now. Most boys probably want to be teenagers ( I shan’t say boys, an obsolete category) forever, hence the weird infantalisation of young men. I listened to a few of them speaking at a bus stop and they literally sounded like seven year olds (though less interesting, as I’m sure paedos see characteristics I might not).
I agree with much of this, and what I think is that boys would prefer to enjoy the fun and adventurous spirit of what we today call adolescence while also being able to enjoy the respect and civil rights that legal adults have. I think the great majority of them do not like the conception of adulthood as practiced by the world today, which is expected to be all work with no fun or adventure.
By the way, I have “cruised” for boys when I was about nineteen in London and elswhere, and there were no boys there either, so I don’t really know what you mean by “BLer’s who have congregated in places where they meet”. Perhaps you mean gay youth groups.
Nope, I meant the various online forums like BC and others prior to many being forced to change the rules so that only legal adults could sign up for participation. They were a regular presence there in the not too distant past. I wasn’t talking about them having a visible or semi-visible appearance in the outside world. That would have been foolish of them, and they knew it!
As for “conservative” having anything to do with today’s attitudes. It isn’t disapproving churchmen who are “denying the sexual rights of children” or some such Marxist nonsense regularly spouted on these forums,
[snip!}
Conservatives tend to be more tolerant of even behaviour they think is terrible and should be illegal, because they recognise these things happen inevitably. Hence why it is possible to be discreetly “gay” in Muslim countries.
Yes, but the fact that they realize something is going to be part of “reality” no matter how much they hate and even criminalize it, that doesn’t stop them from loudly preaching against it every chance they get. Being discreetly gay means being forced to operate under the radar.
Much of the rest of what you said, again, was fascinating! Thank you!!

Nada

doesn’t stop them from loudly preaching against it every chance they get.
Have you encountered any priests known to preach in defense of pedophiles and pedophilia?
Being discreetly gay means being forced to operate under the radar..
To the extent they are able to love those they are attracted to, they are already better off than pedophiles, who are forced to be celibate.

Dissident

Agreed, Nada!

Sapphocidaire

My name is Sapphocidaire, and it means in English, as you know, “genocider of lesbians”. It is my one contribution to this forum and human civilisation, and I am proud of it. As for your use of the smiley face emoticon, I don’t see any reason to be happy, really. Maybe you’re happy, but I’m an angry lunatic. Oh, I know next to nothing about the actual founding texts except for Marx was a Jew and Engels a loaded scion who lectured on poverty. It all came out of Victorian liberalism. Your Marxist today is basically some wealthy **** who calls himself anything from a liberal to an anarchist. He/she abides in nice middle-class comfort, in a good catchment area for schools and services, denouncing capital yet will continue to use computers and other things that are built by Chinese factory workers and glued together out of stolen African resources. Not that I give a flying ****, but I never claim to be a moral person: I am happy to live on “exploited labour”. I don’t care. At least, though, anarchists in the past had the courage to carry out “propaganda of the deed”. Lenin et al spent time in actual jail cells. Your classless society exists: America, and soon the rest of the world. Perhaps the Khmer Rouge is more your idea of a good time. But I’ve got news for you, there will ALWAYS be haves and have-nots and there will always be those who make up an upper economic class. Does human nature suggest otherwise? Human beings taken in large groups are irrational, stupid, jealous and greedy.
I believe in beauty, excellence, workmanship, love and kindness, not a veneer of equality measured out under the auspices of an insensitive bureaucracy that in reality maintains its own elite and only cares about itself. Civilisation is biology and nature, refined. The silverfish, primordial comrade of the trilobite, conducts a mating ritual in which the two sexes meet and then the male runs away to be caught by the female. This is clearly connected to paederastic rituals in Ancient Greece and Courtly Love in Mediaeval Europe. Do you think a trilobite ever felt the need to ask the way to a “gender neutral” bathroom?
I can assure you that gay adolescent boys are very capable of expressing in public any demand to love adults, or even to construct a website to meet men. They are not stupid and know that they can get away with things now more than when they are older, hence why so many of them falsely accuse teachers of molestation. Are you not aware of the amount of self-generated adolescent pornography on the internet? So when they start demanding their “rights”, I shall happily support them. This is also the Virped position. I am certainly not going to speak for boys. That would make me the polar opposite of the kind of scum who work in “child protection”. For the time being I condemn the treatment of sixteen year olds who get arrested for sexual relations with thirteen year olds. It sickens and angers me, and not because I am a boylover. When I considered myself of the Left and was a self-hating pedo, it still made me angry to see youth treated in this way, and in fact, patronised generally.
Anyway, ‘human rights’ are just an excuse for the United States to run roughshod over other peoples’ cultures. Though human beings in small enough groups essentially share the same qualities of being just to each other and conscientious, these are diffused differently in different societies resulting in various laws and traditions. A guardian writer had a photograph of a fourteen year old Afghan girl who was married to a man, and her comment, to paraphrase, was something like “and what’s shocking to us is that he (the man ) genuinely couldn’t see what was wrong with it”. For this, this ignorant woman was violating the kind of independent observer status needed in coming into contact with other cultures. It made me sick. She is every bit interfering with Afghanistan as did the soviet and American military over the decades. Then they, the disgusting international charities, find filthy traitors in these countries ( Malala Youzefsai, for example ), often “Marxist” groups of women, and give them money to groom them into becoming a lever for Western manipulation. Makes me sick! The great evil in the world at the moment is allegedly “power”. To a Marxist lesbian working in left-wing academia, devoid as she is of any of the human ability to admire beauty but essentially an emotionless machine, a relationship between a man and a boy of, say, fourteen and twenty five, respectively, is simply one of a power imbalance in which the vulnerable boy is pushed around by the man. Non-Marxist humans, understand the richness of human relationships. That there is such a thing as love and a desire to teach and nurture that exists, I think uncontroversially still in parents, but also, it would seem, in boylovers and possibly girllovers. Here, it is worth pointing out that the actual power imbalance concerning such relations in the paedohysterical West is most often tipped towards the boy, who can even blackmail the elder partner. There is nothing wrong with a ‘power imbalance’, and the real terrorists are the women and emasculated men who support the system of child protection. Meanwhile, as this bastard holocaust is supported by psychologists, it is necessary to remember that the main employment of psychologists is quite literally grooming kids to buy products. Research into the amount of money spent on advertising to young kids. It makes me sick, and yes, I confess that I am red-hot angry about it!

A.

One more long comment, then I shall leave the floor clear.
Speaking of bureaucratic and over-interventionist approaches, some more insider knowledge…
From personal experience, this is what routine gynaeocological care looks like for a healthy, asymptomatic woman in most of the developed world:
You have a cervical smear test (Pap smear, to check for precancerous changes in the cervix, or neck of the womb), typically every three years starting when you are twenty-five. The schedule may vary a bit: in Australia it’s every two years starting at eighteen, in Ontario every three years starting at twenty-one. It goes like this: You go to the doctor’s office and take off your shoes, socks, trousers and underpants, or if you are wearing a long skirt, which many choose to do, you take off your shoes, socks and underpants and hike up your skirt. You lie down on a regular exam table with your knees drawn up and canted apart. A doctor or nurse puts a metal tool called a speculum into your vagina to hold it open, and uses a brush to collect a cell sample from your cervix. You can feel the instruments going in and out, but not the collection of the cells, because you can’t feel anything with the back of your vagina or with your cervix. You’d never know you had a cervix unless you read about it or had a feel inside your vagina. The whole thing takes five minutes.
Also from personal experience, this is what routine gynaecological care looks like for a healthy, asymptomatic woman in the US:
Every year, you make an appointment specifically with a gynaecologist. You go in and, usually, fill out a form saying how many sexual partners you have had, if any, how often, if at all, you typically have sex (sex of course meaning PIV intercourse) and the date of your last period. You take all your clothes off and get into one of those backless hospital gowns. The gynaecologist asks you questions based on what you wrote on the form: whether you are using contraception and what type, if your periods are regular, if they are very painful, etc. Then you lie down on an exam table with stirrups and put your feet in the stirrups. The gynaecologist feels your breasts and your armpits for lumps, then feels your abdomen for any sensitive spots, then does a cervical smear, then inserts two gloved, lubricated fingers into your vagina while also feeling your abdomen with the other hand to find out if anything’s up with your uterus and ovaries (this is called a bimanual exam), then finally inserts a gloved and lubricated finger into your anus. Sometimes the breast and/or anal exam isn’t done, especially the anal exam, and sometimes the gynaecologist questions you after the physical exams, not before, and if necessary you have additional STI testing, but the cervical smear and bimanual exam are always done.
This is supposed to happen every year. It is considered very important, and if you don’t do it, you are considered irresponsible. People who can’t afford to go to any other kind of doctor will find the money for the gynaecologist. I once read a comment by a US neurologist saying that gynaecologists were trained to regard themselves as default primary care physicians and that he thought this was a large pretension for a surgical specialty, but that, after all, a gynaecologist is the only kind of doctor many women ever see, so the only one to hear about all of their health problems, not just the reproductive-system ones. Gynaecologists, of course, also have the power to prescribe contraception. Apparently the only kind of medical exam required for someone wanting to go on oral contraceptives is a blood pressure check, but gynaecologists typically insist upon a Pap smear and pelvic exam before they’ll write the prescription, and they may use the scrip to extract compliance with other kinds of tests as well. Planned Parenthood, which does cheap gynaecological care for uninsured broke people, will sometimes write the scrip without the exam, but they strongly encourage the exam.
According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, yearly gynaecological visits are supposed to start when you are 13-15 years old, though the first visit may simply consist of a talk with the gynaecologist and after that, if the girl in question has not yet had PIV intercourse, simply an abdominal exam. My impression is that most people start yearly visits in their late teens. Certainly it is viewed as highly irresponsible to be having PIV sex and not going to those yearly visits. On Ask Metafilter once, someone posted a question saying that her fifteen-year-old daughter was having sex with her (the girl’s!) fifteen-year-old boyfriend and what should she (the mother) do? The consensus went something like: fifteen isn’t necessarily too young, but make sure she’s responsible. That includes starting yearly gynaecologist visits right now. Metafilter is pretty socially liberal, and still, some of the responses had a fairly judgemental tone, along the lines of: you just tell her that if she’s mature enough to be having sex, she’s mature enough to handle everything that goes along with it, and that must include gyn visits. Because a lot of women absolutely hate and dread going to the gynaecologist. They feel, sometimes correctly, that they are being judged on their sexual history — there are a lot of stories out there about judgemental, even shaming, gyns–; they find the exams uncomfortable and embarrassing; they anxiously trim or shave their pubic hair beforehand so it doesn’t look ‘untidy’; if they have a history of sexual assault, they exams may be downright awful for them.
I’m not a medic of any description, so until recently I was reserving judgement on all this, but then some studies came out a few years ago saying that most of the regularly-scheduled gyn exams are not useful, that all that’s really needed are the three-yearly cervical smears as is done in the rest of the developed world. Things in US gynaecological practice seem to be changing slowly, but it’ll take a while.
Speaking of Metafilter, a poster there who has years of experience in education had this to say about campus consent policies: “I know the ‘in loco parentis’ model has fallen out of fashion since the 1960s, but residential colleges are taking VERY young adults, who are paying tens of thousands of dollars, housing them in university-owned and managed housing, with university-employed cops, and along with that comes an implicit and often explicit promise that these students will be safe.” And, of course, the parents are generally footing the bill or most of it. I think all of this has something to do with attitudes to family in certain sections of the US’s white upper-middle class. The parents, especially the fathers, will often have been working all kinds of hours while the kids were growing up, and rarely seeing the kids; now that the kids are eighteen, in theory they are supposed to be out of the parental home and never moving back because that’d be pathetic – though this, too, is slowly changing what with the recession and all – and forming more important bonds with other people, leading to the establishment of a permanent couple bond that, culturally, must take absolute primacy over the birth family. The parents’ money is often substituting for actual closeness and involvement, and money includes paying for supervision and guidance. Be that as it may, there is surely no way that this kind of coddling fuss would be kicked up about a group of poor working class black young adults who had grown up in foster care. On the contrary, they’d probably have been treated more or less like adults for some time already, starting before they were ready to handle it.
Some articles I have found:
From 2013, two undergraduate men accused of rape suing under title IX:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/08/09/accused-rape-men-allege-discrimination-under-title-ix
From this year, several male students accused of sexual assault win lawsuits:
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-students-win-recent-lawsuits-against-colleges-punished-them-sexual-assault
A man describes being sexually assaulted by a woman as an undergraduate at Stanford: http://www.stanforddaily.com/2015/01/11/rethinking-gender-and-sexual-assault-policy-my-story/
Seeing elsewhere a reference to Oberlin University’s consent policy, I looked it up. At first it seemed quite reasonable. “Effective consent is informed, freely and actively given by mutually understandable words or actions that indicate a willingness to engage in mutually agreed upon sexual activity — in other words, to do the same thing, at the same time, in the same way, with each other. Oberlin strongly encourages students to talk with each other before engaging in sexual activity…” but does not require it: the whole thing can be done without a word said. “Ensuring clear and unambiguous communication about effective consent is especially important between persons who do not have a well-established, current sexually intimate relationship” – implicitly acknowledging that established sexual partners tend to develop their own nonverbal sexual shorthand. But then it goes right off the rails: “Please note that the Oberlin College Sexual Offense policy prohibits faculty and staff from engaging in sexual relationships with students with whom they are not married or in formal domestic partnerships, even when both parties believe that the relationship is consensual.” In other words, their own perception that they are consenting to what they are doing must necessarily be deluded. And on that subject, another article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/the-stanford-undergraduate-and-the-mentor.html?_r=0

A.

Turns out that this dates back further than I had thought. During the 1991-2 academic year, a small, private, socially liberal university called Antioch College devised a policy that consent to sex must be “(a) verbal, (b) mutual, and (c) reiterated for every new level of sexual behavior”. Here is an even-handed contemporary article: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/11/opinion/ask-first-at-antioch.html
Also, for furriners: most people in the US who know about Title IX, which is a lot of people, associate it with gender equality in school and university athletic programmes, which as far as I understand is what it’s mainly been used for up to now. In 2013, ESPN (sports channel) ran a series of documentaries on women in sports entitled Nine for IX. There’s a women’s sportswear catalogue called Title Nine. There’s a popular and expensive series of dolls and books called American Girl, each doll representing a fictional nine-year-old from a different period of US history; their 1970s doll gets to play basketball at school thanks to Title IX. Websites set up to tell people about IX have to remind them that it isn’t just about sports. I bet a lot of people would be surprised to find out that it could be used in this way.

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Also, this is not the only matter on which US universities uphold an arguably unrealistic standard of behaviour and punish people for arguably harmless acts. The legal drinking age is 21. US universities are, of course, full of people under 21 who drink and people 21 and over who supply alcohol to people under 21. If caught, they can theoretically be disciplined and not infrequently are. It’s not unheard of for a university to withdraw an offer of admission from an 18-year-old caught drinking the summer after high school and before college. Everyone knows everyone breaks this law, everyone knows it’s an unfair law, and it’s not going away anytime soon.
Then, too, most US universities maintain their own, completely independent campus police force.
So this is arising in a fairly specific context.

Finkelhor did something terrible, when he introduced the concept of consent into sex. One can consent to a heart transplant and hereby taking responsibility for the consequences. Under such an operation, one is unconscious and cannot influence anything. Consent is given once and is more a declaration of trust and confidence, than an agreement to a pleasurable act.
The problem of “campus rape” is that nobody has a clear idea how to give and ask for consent; the wrong concept is applied to a situation, where both (or more) parties are responsible for the outcomes and have the ability influence the events at any time.
Sex is fun and more resembles a dance than a serious heart transplant. If I step onto your feets, it is your responsibility to let me know. I’m only becoming a good dancer, when you let me learn and give me feedback.

A.

I’ve just gotten hold of the revised and updated 2016 version of Stephanie Coontz’s The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap. In the introduction, she refers to sociologist Paula England’s valuable findings on the ‘orgasm gap’ and social double standard, both favouring men, in college sexual hookups. England’s research was conducted during the 2005-2011 period and included over 20,000 students at twenty-one US universities. Coontz continues:
“Nevertheless, almost as many women as men [in college] report that they enjoyed their last hookup. And a 2015 survey by Arielle Kuperberg and Joseph Padgett found that a slightly higher percentage of men than women expressed the desire for more opportunities to find someone with whom to initiate a relationship…In a 2015 survey of 150,000 students conducted by the Association of American Universities, 27.2% of female college seniors reported that, since entering college, they had experienced some kind of unwanted sexual contact. This was widely reported to mean that one in five college students had been victims of rape and sexual assault, even though the authors of the report warned against such a ‘misleading’ conclusion. The survey lumped together sexual assault and sexual misconduct (which included unwanted sexual touching, kissing or groping, or attempts at intimacy while the woman was still deciding)…less than 14% of the survey participants reported experiencing penetration, attempted penetration or oral sex, whether by force or while incapacitated by drugs or alcohol…the response rate was…only 19.3%. This probably selected for a higher-than-average proportion of women who had had bad experiences, since such women tend to be more motivated to report them…the most frequent victims of sexual violence and partner abuse are women in low-income communities who have not had the opportunity to attend a four-year college.”

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Coontz’s last point is quite important. All of this has to have something to do with the enormous importance of ‘the college experience’ in US culture. Once, walking past a class of thirteen-year-olds on a field trip, I overheard a guidance counsellor (I think that’s what she was) tell the kids that there was no reason why all of them shouldn’t go to college. By the looks and sounds of them — various class indicators and race, linguistic background, the area they came from etc. — most were going to go to community college (two-year public university with lots of students local and living at home). ‘Everyone should go to college’ is an article of faith for many in the US and community college is commonly viewed as the lesser option. When people say ‘college’ often they mean the Big Experience: four years, move a long way away from your family, buy dorm room furnishings, get a credit card, take out lots of loans, graduate up to your neck in debt and thus nice and tractable. Even with all the loans, you’ll probably need substantial financial support from your parents. Don’t have well-heeled parents, or don’t go to four-year college for any other reason? Who cares about your troubles, even if they are likely to be heavier than those of a well-off white student at a four-year college?

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But quite a few these days are optionally four with the third year abroad. The community college (leading to an associate’s degree)/four-year college split is a big one, race- and class-wise (though it’s perfectly possible to start out in a community college and then transfer to a four-year college for the final two years). See for instance http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/05/why-do-a-majority-of-black-and-latino-students-end-up-at-two-year-colleges/371423/

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