The law, lore and allure of the jungle

Mowgli, the little Indian boy who grows up with wolves in Rudyard Kipling’s fabled fables, has been brought to life, or at least to animation, in over a dozen movies. First in the role was Sabu, in 1942. The son of an elephant driver, he had himself been cast as a young mahout in the 1937 film Elephant Boy, based on another Kipling yarn. The best remembered Mowgli these days, though, is the cartoon character in Disney’s classic 1967 animation The Jungle Book. And now Neel Sethi, aged 12, a first-generation Asian-American, takes the role in a just released Disney version of the same title.
Sethi looks younger in the movie, and was perhaps 10 or 11 during its studio-based shooting. That seems about right for the role, although Mowgli’s age is given as only seven in Kipling’s original 1894 book, and the 1967 film reflects this. Mowgli is the only human character seen on screen in the new version, all the others being highly realistic “talking” animals created with the latest CGI wizardry, including Mowgli’s closest jungle buddies, Bagheera the panther and Baloo the bear, as well as his deadly enemy, Shere Khan the tiger.
But it’s surely the new Mowgli many here will be impatient to check out, unless you have already devoured all the publicity photos and trailers and maybe even seen the film a few times, which wouldn’t surprise me. For those who haven’t, you could do worse than start with a whole bunch of trailers at the Disney website.
If you are smitten at first sight, that will be reason enough to jump for a ticket. More fastidious souls (which counts me out!) will look critically before leaping towards the box office. So what creative, as opposed to commercial, justification could there be for a studio to remake its own original musical masterpiece, the last film to which Walt Disney, himself an animator, contributed his own personal creative input? It’s a question that implies you cannot improve on perfection but I don’t buy that at all. As with revivals of Sophocles or Shakespeare, new generations find new things to say and new ways of saying them, while keeping brand recognition as a huge draw.
Director Jon Favreau isn’t precious about it. His explanation in a video clip linked from the Guardian is simple and persuasive. He just thought that in addition to the obvious opportunity technology now offers for greater photo realism, it would be good to “move back towards the Kipling a little bit” and go more for an adventure film rather than just an amusing musical.
It works. He has kept The Bare Necessities, in more than one sense, from the earlier film, retaining this fine song and a couple of others. The comic touch is still there too, with some great new witty lines and visual humour. As for the Kipling, I can confirm, after reading all the original stories of Mowgli’s childhood, that writer Justin Marks has indeed incorporated far more of both the plot and the spirit of Kipling’s writing than the 1967 version, including a strong and important poetic element. He has even drawn to good effect on The Second Jungle Book, of 1895.
Just a couple of niggles. The action right at the start of the film is way too fast, with Mowgli seen flying at warp speed through the jungle, leaping monkey-fashion from branch to branch in a bid to keep up with the wolf pack below. Sure, kids in the video game era are used to faster action than us oldies can keep up with, but this is just ridiculous: photo realism was the aim and this is unrealistic.
Then there is the little matter of Mowgli’s loin cloth. In the original Disney version it was indeed little. And sexy. Who among BLs could forget the marvellous scene where Bagheera grips Mowgli’s loincloth in his teeth and nearly tugs it off in an effort to pull along the resisting boy, who does not want to be taken to the man-village. The effect is very like that of the famous Coppertone ad. The new version, by contrast, is about as sexy as a chastity belt, and that is not accidental: the anxiety over Mowgli’s modesty was such that enormous effort and expense went into creating an haute couture “authentic” jungle garment that could hardly have been less authentic in terms of wild-child wear, which would of course have amounted to nothing at all – even village children in India still go naked, never mind jungle ones; or at least they did when I was last there.
Kipling, too, was very specific on the matter. Mowgli is many times referred to as “naked”. Not until he goes to the man-village is he introduced to the loin cloth. In the book, but not Favreau’s film, he stays several months in the village, where he had to “ wear a cloth round him, which annoyed him horribly”.
But why should we be faithful to Kipling’s vision? Isn’t he, after all, one of those icons of oppressive imperialism, like Cecil Rhodes, whose statue at Oxford University has been under attack recently? Well, unlike Rhodes, Kipling was a writer not a land-grabber. Rather a good one, too, a Nobel laureate in literature hailed in his day as a genius, even by such a towering figure as Henry James.
As a child, I first knew him through his Just So Stories, about how the tiger got his stripes and such like. Later, his most famous poems hove into view, including If— and Gunga Din. This poetic aspect of his talent is actually very important to the new film, along with his gifts as a story teller, helping establish a radically more profound element than is to be found in old Walt’s comic capers. But it is there in a low key way, subliminal, working unobtrusively on the heart through the immense power of rhyme, rhythm and repetition, in a chorus threaded through the work:
 

Now this is the law of the jungle,

as old and as true as the sky,

And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper,

but the wolf that shall break it must die.

 

As the creeper that girdles the tree trunk,

the law runneth forward and back;

For the strength of the pack is the wolf,

and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

 
Like so much of Kipling, it hammers at something primal in us, something atavistic and compelling. These chorus verses are part of a much longer poem, The Law of the Jungle. What did they mean for Kipling’s original readers? What do we make of them now? Our first thoughts may go to the title, and its meaning as given in modern dictionaries: the “law” is about “a place devoid of ethics where brutality and self-interest reign” (American Heritage Idioms Dictionary). In Darwinian terms, it is the Survival of the Fittest, without thought for helping others or working with them.
The dictionary definition actually derives from popular use of Kipling’s phrase, but his wolves (“the strength of the wolf is the pack”) plainly do cooperate with each other. They have a group ethic, if you will – a predatory one, for sure, but deeply rooted in shared risks and bonds of loyalty that military leaders might identify as esprit de corps. Actually, there is no “might” about it. It is no accident that Lieutenant General Robert Baden-Powell, founder of the Boy Scout movement, adopted The Jungle Book as a major influence for the Cub Scouts – these junior scouts, aged about 7-11, are called wolf cubs, after all.
To speak of “risks” in the same breath as childhood these days smacks us in the face with a mighty paradox. Children now are supposed to be protected, cushioned from exposure to every kind of adventure. But the Mowgli of this new film, along with the child heroes of countless Hollywood productions, faces a multitude of life-threatening perils with aplomb. And parents flock with their kids to see it!
Oddly, in the days when real kids did have adventures on their own outside the home, Mowgli was presented as rather helpless, depending heavily for survival on the junglecraft of his friends Bagheera and Baloo. In the new version, though, in line with the original Kipling, he emerges very quickly as a crafty and capable character, quickly outsmarting all the other animals. But the book, takes this capability much further: Mowgli becomes contemptuous of the “dog’s jabber” uttered by the wolves. Like that slightly later wild child, Tarzan, he grows to be the epitome of the Noble Savage, presented as loftily superior to the nearest villagers, tied as they are to ignorant superstitions about the fearful jungle and to dreary, mind-numbing toil on the land.
Wisely, Favreau has only gone, in his own words, “a bit” towards Kipling. It wouldn’t do these days to embrace some of the less fashionable themes in the jungle stories. What has been left out, or altered, is very illuminating.
Out, for instance, is a scene in which we hear about Baloo as a teacher of junglecraft to Mowgli, including the bear’s use of corporal punishment. He says to Bagheera:

“Is there anything in the jungle too little to be killed? No. That is why I teach him these things, and that is why I hit him, very softly, when he forgets.”
“Softly! What dost thou know of softness, old iron-feet?” Bagheera grunted. “His face is all bruised today by thy – softness. Ugh.”
“Better he should be bruised from head to foot by me who love him than that he should come to harm through ignorance,” Baloo answered very earnestly.

Despite his call for softness, Bagheera is also a believer in tough love. Baloo and Bagheera rescue Mowgli after he has been kidnapped by monkeys, costing them a deal of lost fur in a battle. The man-cub must be punished for foolishly playing with the primates. We hear that Bagheera administered “half a dozen love-taps from a panther’s point of view” but for a seven-year-old boy they amounted to “as severe a beating as you could wish to avoid”.
As for what has been altered, the most striking and clever new feature is a re-assessment of what it takes to be a leader. Kipling’s Mowgli had great qualities in spades: courage, fortitude, ingenuity – priceless virtues for those venturing to the ends of the earth to run an empire. Favreau’s Mowgli is likewise favoured with this trinity of traits, but with a much stronger emphasis than before on ingenuity and enterprise: we are treated to the Survival of the Smartest, in which Mowgli emerges as a Noble Savage for the era of the teen tech titan, more Nick D’Aloisio  than Tarzan, deploying what the animals call his “tricks”. At a water hole, for instance, he fashions a cup from what might be a coconut husk, thereby far surpassing the animals’ inefficient way of drinking by lapping.
But he really hits the heights, quite literally, when he devises a way of harvesting honey on an industrial scale from hives high up an inaccessible cliff: never mind imperialist exploitation, this is a rapaciously acquisitive capitalist in embryo. Baloo in the book had taught him “how to speak politely to the wild bees when he came upon a hive of them fifty feet above ground…”. But in Favreau’s film Mowgli favours a less “by your leave” approach, kicking the hell out of the honeycombs and getting stung massively in the process – until his next expedition, by which time he has invented anti-sting body armour fashioned from leaves!
You don’t have to be uncritically a fan of buccaneering entrepreneurship to enjoy this charming and stylish movie though. I did. So, I am sure, will you.
 

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BJ Freedman

Re the loincloth, not only is it too large and glued in place, it survives with nary a slip through falling down a muddy slope into a raging river, and so on. I am sure the “costume designer” for the film, knowing that Mowgli was the only person in the film and is in it it throughout, took pains to keep even a whiff of “sexiness” out. Of course she failed, because they didn’t cover up the rest of Sethi’s slender body and… that face! Also, the cuts and bruises were pretty sexy, too. And yes, Tom, Neel may have been 12, but he’s got – The Body of a Ten-Year-Old!

Salem21

TOC have you seen any of these anti-gay vintage films?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfgsP8-l4VA

Sapphocidaire

Not if you take the view that I do which is that the Gay identity is anti-homosexual in nature. I guess this first occurred to me in scanning the ideas of Bill Andriette.

feinmann0

This awful ‘education’ film reminds me of the awful AIDS campaign films spearheaded by the UK Government back in 1986, albeit successfully educating the public beyond their ignorant belief that AIDS was a disease that only afflicted gays. Ironically, the Government had little knowledge of the disease, so in desperation employed scaremongering tactics.
The discriminatory Lieutenant Williams in his Boys Beware film tells us: “You never know when the homosexual is about; he may appear normal, and it may be too late when you discover he is mentally ill”. For me this is clear evidence of the initial tip of the wedge driven between the younger generation and men across Western societies. Fifty years on, the wedge is the same; its name has changed from homophobia to paedophobia, but it continues to be driven in deeper year on year by those who remain unaccountable and who have all the control.

Mike

Yes it is the same Mike. I found this site a few weeks back. I am in the US, but originally from the UK and am genuinely interested in hearing both sides of this issue.
My earlier comment, is a sentiment shared by many, that yes there is abuse and neglect but that does not automativally mean support for “kind” relationships. I thought this website wanted discussion and not just people who agree 100%.

feinmann0

Hi Mike. Seems to me that you have not only had feedback from several of us already, but you have also had a chance in the interim to review the topics and debate here too. Perhaps you could tell us in your eyes, why it is not OK for adults to have consensual sex with youngsters. You seem to imply that consensual sexual activity is harmful to children. Can you point to scientific literature that proves that as fact?

Mike

I have had a bit of a look but it isn’t like I spend all time here.
Consensual is a key word, and I am not sure you can say a 25 year old (or older) for example having sex with a 9 year old would be consensual due to the power dynamic. Also the human body prepares itself for sex by going through puberty. On average that occurs in the early teens. Yes you may quote a case of a 9 yo going through puberty but let’s deal on the typical case. So it would seem having sex with a typical 9 yo is not right from a biological perspective.please advise me if I am wrong.
Also what scientific data do you have showing these kind of relationships don’t have an adverse effect.
I also not convinced you can compare “kind” with gay. I understand why you want to because gay rights have advanced a lot.

Salem21

Pia Friis: kids should be free to masturbate and toys ‘fuck toys’ in Kindergarden:http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2007/10/15/515133.html

Mike

Thanks for the detailed reply. I will look at the texts you mention. When you say no harmful effects, I assume there were not net (compared to control group) positive effects? If this was the case the an argument could be made that outlawing these interactions will prevent/deter a lot of bad cases and it is viewed as an acceptable trade off to also prevent the non harmful I tetactions. Just a thought and I will read further.

feinmann0

“Also the human body prepares itself for sex by going through puberty. On average that occurs in the early teens. Yes you may quote a case of a 9 yo going through puberty but let’s deal on the typical case. So it would seem having sex with a typical 9 yo is not right from a biological perspective.please advise me if I am wrong.”
Seems as if onset of puberty in US girls has decreased from 16.5 years old over a century ago to 10.5 by 2010, and in boys: a similar fall but with a one year lag. Conversely, paradoxically, others might say perversely, the age of consent has climbed higher. In Europe, the 1880, 1920 and 2007 figures (averaged over 14 or more countries) are: 13, 14.5 and 16 respectively. In the US (averaged over 48 states), the 1880 and 2007 figures are: 10.5 and 16.5, respectively.

feinmann0

‘I also not convinced you can compare “kind” with gay. I understand why you want to because gay rights have advanced a lot.’
Dr Alfred Kinsey: “Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. Not all things are black nor all things white. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories. Only the human mind invents categories and tries to force facts into separated pigeon-holes. The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects. The sooner we learn this concerning human sexual behavior, the sooner we shall reach a sound understanding of the realities of sex.”
Not sure what sense you attach to the word ‘compare’. In light of Kinsey’s contention that human sexual behaviour is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects, and the universal human right to sexuality incorporates the right to express one’s sexuality and to be free from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, one would have thought that post-Kinsey, paedosexuality might be considered valid and afforded equal status to heterosexuality and homosexuality (albeit afforded very latterly and very grudgingly). But this is simply not the case because those who are prejudiced and rely on gut feeling instead of studying the facts, such as yourself, cannot be reasoned out of their emotional belief, a belief that you correctly say is shared by many.

Mike

I will understand the point about a spectrum, or range of sexualities. LGBT covers quite a few!
A key point is that people are free to exhibit/take part in their sexuality if it is consensual and does not hurt others. What I have started to read from the links Tom showed me last week deal with the consent issue.

Mike

Tom, a new reader here. So I apologise if this question has been answered before – have you had intimate relationships with people younger than 16? I would like to appreciate the perspective you write from.

feinmann0

I wonder if this is the very same ‘Mike’ that wrote the following two blogs back: ‘Two wrongs don’t make a right. It is true there is child neglect and abuse. But that is not mitigated by allowing older men to have “consensual” sex with 9 year olds.’

Sugarboy

Maybe he’s only in favour of non-consensual sex, who knows…

Mike

Sugarboy – where did you get that from? Incorrect assertion by the way.

Sapphocidaire

Like, why act as if it’s some exotic thing? Befriend anyone who was young just a few decades ago in the United States or England, get them sloshed and they’ll probably tell you they stepped out with and kissed or even made love to a fourteen or fifteen year old girl. Or has this all just gone down the memory hole? I found out this truth as I got older.

Salem21

Back in the 1970’s it seems like people could have relationships with teenage girls under the age of consent; Sure some people got done for underage sex, but you could date them back then (so I hear, I was a baby back then) But today, that would be to risky, regardless of whether you had sex with her, it would be classed as ‘grooming’…therefore removing that avenue for a consensual relationship with an underage girl — even in the late nineties I think those sort of encounters were not automatically assumed as grooming therefore giving the authorities (or geastpo) an excuse to raid your home!

Sapphocidaire

You mean anytime before the 1970s too.

A.

The full text of Joseph A. Mercurio’s 1975 book Caning: Educational Ritual is available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fn3moq43ic2qnv2/19408.pdf?dl=0 It’s a study of corporal punishment at one very traditional boys’ secondary school in Christchurch, New Zealand, and how boys, teachers and parents felt about it.

Sapphocidaire

LOL He’ll be thrown to the dogs by his beloved gays!
If he likes teenage boys and not men then he can’t by definition really be gay, which is a movement of same-sex equality.

A.

Not terribly related but on the general subject of movies: some time ago I managed to get to a screening of Tina Leisch’s documentary Roque Dalton, ¡fusilemos la noche! Dalton (1935-1975) was a leftist Central American journalist and poet. According to the documentary he became a husband and father very young, at about twenty, and was not entirely happy about it. For the rest of his short life he frequently visited sex workers and also had a series of mistresses. One of these in particular is interviewed for the documentary. When she and Dalton met and started a relationship she was thirteen, going on fourteen, and he about twenty-two. She says that people tell her it was terrible of him to go after such a young girl and that this always makes her laugh because she was the one who pursued him, she fell in love first and he reciprocated. She adds that at the time she had had no partnered sexual experiences, not even kissing, and that he was very gentle and tender with her in bed. For her fifteenth birthday — a big one for girls over there, basically signals a girl’s leaving childhood and becoming sexually available — he wrote her a love poem. Another for the We Are Everywhere file.
Funfax: one of cinema’s first interracial love stories is also one of its first intergenerational love stories: Broken Blossoms, or The Yellow Man and the Girl, by D.W. Griffith (yes, he of Birth of a Nation). Cheng is a would-be Buddhist missionary from China whose idealism has been crushed by bitter circumstance; Lucy is a motherless, unloved fifteen-year-old whose alcoholic father beats her horribly. In the slums of Limehouse they meet. Cheng falls in love with Lucy and takes tender care of her, but effortfully refrains from kissing her in order, no doubt, not to ‘violate her innocence’. Though Cheng is played by Richard Barthelmess in yellowface, even a fake interracial kiss would have been going too far in 1919. The film is based on Thomas Burke’s short story ‘The [excuse me] Chink and the Child’. In the story Lucy is twelve, and she and Cheng kiss and caress each other rather a lot. Cheng watches for “that strangely provocative something about the toss of the head and the hang of the little blue skirt as it coyly kissed her knee” and doesn’t ask himself “whether she were of an age for love”, but nonetheless his love is definitely “a pure and holy thing”. Of course everything has to end tragically, due to the father’s violent prejudice. If Lucy in the film had been twelve, not fifteen, some of the plot elements, such as Cheng’s gift to her of a doll, would have made more sense. 1919, however, was just before Jackie Coogan made child actors A Thing, and though twenty-three-year-old Lillian Gish told Griffith she was too old for the part and offered to “take a little girl of eleven or twelve and train her” for the role, Griffith insisted Gish play Lucy.
Both film and story will be in the public domain now.
Broken Blossoms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGVNfN06IUM
The Chink and the Child: https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/burke/thomas/limehouse_nights/chapter1.html
Shu Zeng’s paper ‘Fetishization of Whiteness: Ambivalence toward Interracial Sexuality and Union in “The Chink and the Child” by Thomas Burke’: http://www.inter-disciplinary.net/critical-issues/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/zengwhitepaper.pdf

Explorer

Considering the harsher parts of original “Jungle Book”, such as beatings of Mowgly by his bestial tutors, being erased from its newer retellings (and re-showings) – well, this is the general tendency of modern children’s art and literature. Once upon a time, fairy-tales were pretty cruel, even atrocious, by modern humanistic value-standards. As a quick example, one can easily recall Snow White’s sadistic treatment of her wicked royal stepmother in the original, old version of the story: she made her dance in a heated iron clogs until she died of pain. Can you imagine a “good” character – in fact, any character – of a modern children’s narration or performance acting like that? Even in supposedly “adults-only” popular artistic and literary works of nowadays, such extreme cruelty as easily demonstrated by old-time Snow White is usually reserved for ugliest villains – mostly, serial killers from “body horrors” like “Saw” series. Otherwise, the reservation of such nightmarish themes and scenes is deliberately provocative and shocking “art-house” film-festival cinema, adored by a few intellectual critics yet despised, and rarely watched, by the majority of population.
In the children-oriented works of imagination this process “humanisation” has been unstoppable until now – the modern animations like “Frozen” are even kinder and softer than the moving cartoons of Disney’s golden age. In those not-too-old cartoons, there still was a place for some cruelty: “bad” characters were almost always killed in the end, and usually tormented in various ways before being killed. In “Frozen”, everyone is alive in the end, and no one (not even the “bad guy” Prince Hans) is subjected to a Tom-and-Jerry-style suffering common to 20th century cartoons.
What is important, such mildness is a relatively recent phenomenon, fully brought to life by a cultural revolution of mid-20th century, and having been slowly prepared by humanistic thinkers and activists for the last few centuries in the West. I recall you mention that in the times of your youth, usage of whipping as a pedagogical tool was considered to be “normal” by almost anyone (including whipped kids themselves); yet later the influence of a few radicals opposing it became visible on a large scale, and let to the massive condemnation and, later, to the legal prohibition of the practice (if I remember correctly, in the UK corporal “punishment” were banned in the 1987 for public schools and in 1999 for the private ones). And the epoch of your childhood and adolescence was relatively mild and soft compared to the previous ones, when torture and public executions were, again, unanimously perceived as “normal” way of events by people, probably including the tortured and executed “criminals” – and excluding a miniscule bunch of progressive visionaries, whose vision, which might be called an utopian dream in their time, was accepted and actualised in the latter era.
Here I must praise something that is usually kicked and slammed nowadays – our Western civilization. Sure, there is a lot of well-deserved negativity that can be thrown in its face – its colonial atrocities, its totalitarian social experiments, its numerous instances of world-scale warfare, its tendency towards cultural imperialism… But it also made two unique inventions that did brought it to its current leadership, and made a good influence on other, “westernised”, civilizations. First is a precise methodology of an open critical coherent dialogue – the “rationality” – which was developed from the original philosophy of Ancient Greece to its progeny, modern science. Second is a personalistic “humaneness”, the liberation of, and compassion to, the individual human being (in the latest times, individual non-human animal tend to become the target of such attitude as well). Together, these two attitudes gave birth to a third one – the intense, progressive “historicity”, which resulted in an unprecedentedly fast and regular transformations of all Western (and westernised) societies and culture during the last few centuries (and, especially, the last few decades).
Do not misunderstand me: non-Western societies did possessed their own share of intellectuals and humanists; and they did have their own historical change as well; all the characteristics above are not entirely exclusive for the West. But it was the Western world where these traits become dominant and fully developed, which allowed them to acquire their full potential and brought us to our current world of initial stages of space exploration and World Wide Web – as well as of women being formally equal to the men and of most children raised without hitting.
Unfortunately, the very recent times – from 1980s onward – have seen the severe slowdown of historical progress, actively enforced by the elites scared to death by the upheavals of 1960s and 1970s and happily supported by the vast majority of population. The transformation of radical “child liberation” into paternalistic “child protection”; reshaping of the original equalitarian, liberatory, sex-positive feminism into authoritarian, victimological, sex-negative one; and the overall hysteria concerning “radicalisation” of (young) populace, constant scare-mongering and doomsaying, persistent search for scapegoats to be “punished” (primary paedophiles, but not only them) – all these reactionary features of our era seem to me to be especially revulsive after the optimistic freedom of mid-20th century.

Edmund

The new taboo against any kind of physical punishment of children may well be a good metaphor for the moral superiority of our values today. In the barbaric old days, if a child behaved really badly, one of the parents gave way to the natural impulse of anger and gave him a thwack. The child understood his parent’s action, generally knowing very well his behaviour had merited it. Thwack administered, he could return to mother’s hugs and kisses. Today, parents know better. They restrain their feelings in the name of reason and instead switch off their love (I would say humanity) for a proscribed period of cold punishments deemed sufficient to install reason.
Presumably even small children, being more rational today, are much less hurt by the withdrawal of love than by brief pain. Thus they grow up to join the ranks of we who wouldn’t hurt a fly and sit comfortably in our living-rooms congratulating ourselves on our moral progress, while deluding ourselves that it’s not our fault when our chosen leaders use the money we give them to do broadly as they promised. When this includes, for example, bombing wedding parties of mostly innocent women and children in remote villages of the Middle East, we can remind ourselves that this is merely one of our unfortunate moral duties. What else can we do if those regressive Moslems are too pig-headed to swallow feminism and every other one of our sacred cows? It’s for their own good, to enlighten them.
Explorer, there is a perfect job for you. Why don’t you become a prison visitor, so you can explain to those “westerners” perhaps most likely to have doubts about our unprecedented humanity why it is that in the name of progress three times as many of them have to be imprisoned compared to their grandparents? Preferably, you should do it in the “land of freedom”, where I understand nearly three million people are suffering some kind of incarceration.
Actually, “the upheavals of the 1960s and 1970s” were not part of a long-term trend, but what the writer Jay Edson in his novel “Marcus and Me” brilliantly terms “jailbreak.” There were a brief delayed reaction to the horrors of the second World War, when the Axis powers went too fast in the march towards our Orwellian future. Have a brief look at the lowering and then raising of the ages of consent a generation later in Russia, Spain or South America for more localised indications of how liberalism can flourish briefly as a reaction.
The brutal persecution of adult/child love today, far from being an aberration, is the very essence of the values you extol, entirely “western” in its inspiration and done in the name of humanity and progress. It is an inevitable product of 21st-century values. Indeed, it could not have taken hold and intensified for more than a generation if it was not.
In a generation or so’s time, blogs like this one will have been closed down by our inevitably even more “enlightened” children, either directly to save children from the harm done by the spread of evil ideas they “know” to be deluded, or indirectly through compulsory euthanasia given to those of us suffering from the incurable sickness of heresy and too deluded to volunteer for the only solution to end our suffering. But you are “progressive”, so of course you will understand and volunteer. If you have time before they take you away for your lethal injection (or, following further in the trend set by the enlightenment’s guillotine, whatever more humane means they will have found for ending your troubles), I recommend reading “1984” or Arthur Koestler’s “Darkness at Noon”.
Edmund, author of Alexander’s Choice, a boy/man love story, http://www.amazon.com/Alexanders-Choice-Edmund-Marlowe/dp/1481222112

Explorer

First of all, Edmund – sorry for delaying my response for so long, I was visiting my relatives in another city and has almost no access to the computer during this period.
I also want to thank you for you long and detailed response – even if you misinterpret my position to the point of it being unrecognizable. But it is hardly your fault, since you, to describe it so, had to make inferences from a very small set of data (a few posts of mine here). So, to prevent any further misunderstandings, I will clarify my positions on the topics you mentioned in your reply.
My position against corporal “punishment” of children does not imply support of mental “punishment”; to be straight, I, as anarchist, is against ANY form of “punishment”, either of children or of adults.
“Punishment” is simply an euphemism for “torture” – an act of violence which is used either to instill submission to a negative, artificial “authority” (hypocritically rebranded name: “discipline”) or to push a person inside the limits of a restrictive, illusive “normalcy” (on the language of the powerful, this process is usually called “correction”). Wide usage of “punishments” effectively imply a prevalence of sadomasochistic, dominant-submissive interpersonal and intercommunal relations in society, where people give up their freedom and dignity either to some high-rank social groups (as in “traditional” societies), or to an abstract “universal law” (as in “modern” societies).
So-called “rewards” seem to be more pleasant to their recepients, but, in effect, not much better than “punishmnets”: their proper, non-euphemistic name is “bribery” – attempts to make a person perform an act which, as and in itself, is undesirable for him/her, but performed because of a promise of some kind of payment.
In an upcoming (well, I hope so…) post-state anarchic society, prisons, closed psychiatric wards and “correction centers” would be abolished – together with canes, straps and paddles. In such society, relations between people should be voluntary: maintained as long as they are mutually satisfactory and stopped if one (or more) of their participants will decide to leave and try anew.
A parent-child relation which is built upon, and centered around, “rewards” and “punishments”, is doomed to turn into a miniature copy of an opressive state – with a hierarchically dominant parents ruling submissive children. In such case, it does not matter much whether children will be subjected to isolation and incarceration for days, weeks or even months (“grounding”) or to ritualised and covertly sexualised beatings (“spanking”): any way, such relationship is based on parents’ supremacy, on their “right” to hurt their kids, who must accept their “punishment” patiently and never attempt to protest, resist or – God forbid!!! – fight back.
Only an egalitarian relation between parents and children, based on mutual sincerity and respect (not only love!) and devoid of “reward”-and-“punishment” opressive tactics, may allow a new, unrepressed generation of mankind to enter this world – a generation which (again, I hope so!) will actualise the old dreams and projects, which were articulated in countless philosophical and mystical teachings since the dawn of mankind, and are intensely supreesed of our era of militant dystopian anti-humanistic pessimism.

Edmund

Thank you for your reply, Explorer.
I am delighted to see we agree far more than I had imagined possible about punishment. My only quarrel here was with what I see as the dogmatic modern mantra of “all physical punishment bad, any other punishment much better.” I can see instances where the former is the less evil choice. But I entirely share your revulsion with punishment per se, whether applied to children or so-called criminals. I have never ever ordained any kind of punishment for my children. Reason, encouragement, and yes, admittedly, sometimes brief anger, have always easily sufficed, and biased though you may well think I am, I shall assert that my children are very considerate and not at all spoiled.
On the other important matters you raised but have not reiterated relating to your worship of “western” and particularly modern western values versus my contempt and revulsion for “WEIRD” values (if you have picked up the meaning of the term from Tom’s previous blogs), I fear we remain divided.

Salem21
Sapphocidaire

Yes, the photograph of the boy hanging on the underground drew out in a sharp pang the desire that my affliction makes me feel for these beautiful creatures. I too would love nothing more than to go down there and buy all those boys gifts and speak with them, but, sadly, from what I see of boylovers on boychat and, err, “on the dark side of town”, it’s probably best that men of my kind are kept away from these boys today. That was a different time, anyway, and you certainly won’t see such scenes in gentrified New York today, as, contrary to the smiling boys depicted ( and I’m sure the Mail chose the worst photographs for their anti-male agenda ), in our civilised times, adolescent unhappiness is now safely institutionalised while they are administered to by trained professionals.

gordonk

I have a question or two about such movies. Here in the good old USA, the law is written that if in my head it’s sexy, it’s childporn. It’s one reason why you seldom see kids in clothing magazines and several individuals have been convicted on having filmed fully clothed minors, like cheerleaders because for them, the kids were sexy. In theory, a porn actress in her twenties, playing a minor could be prosecuted for producing child porn.
Where on that slippery slope are movies like this? Obviously, for some, the kid is hot and would an admission of such be grounds for prosecution? What if a confirmed pedo actually watched or owned a copy, which was legally purchased at Target?
It just shows how messed up our laws are regarding minors and sex. Something that happens all the time, but putting it in a visual format, on film, disc or photograph changes it somehow and even who or how it’s produced changes it from kiddie porn to art. I am confused.

feinmann0

From a commentator on the dark side of town:
“It’s worth noting that the idea of a PICTURE being illegal is a relatively new concept. In the 1970’s, you could own child porn, legally. You could go to any adult book store and buy it, and be within the law.
Creating it was still legally problematic, as it involved potential abuse. But, abuse had to be PROVEN, and, was not that serious a crime, such that there was not much police energy put into combating it.
There are a few famous cases of “pornography” we all know, from the 70’s and early 80’s, where the pornographers were taken to court, and the prosecution was unable to prove abuse, or illegality. There were also cases where very well known pornographers received only a year or two in jail, or less, for things today that would produce multiple life sentences.
And, today, no proof of abuse needs to be presented. The mere allegation is enough, often. You must prove yourself innocent, not the other way around.
They want it easy. They want to get an email from a raid on some server that gives them your IP, trace that to your house, then just break your door down and arrest you. No fuss, no muss. Automatic guilt, and easy work.”
I would just add to the above quote, the broader the scope of what actually constitutes child pornography (or for that matter, rape), the easier the work, the more ‘criminals’ that get arrested, the more targets that get met, the ‘safer’ society becomes as a result.

Sapphocidaire

… and the more males are shamed to suicide. Not me though. You’ll read about me in the paper one day because I’m taking the fight back to them.

Sapphocidaire

Sorry, I was venting; I shall of course continue to live in obscurity and you will never read my name in the paper. I may have said some terrible things in the past which I’ve forgotten about and would hate to read back on. Sorry. It’s only on-line I say these things and not in real life.
It was wrong of me to put that on you, but my favourite and only psalm I know about is 137 KJV, so, like the Israelites it felt good to take a moment out of my day just to meditate on the possibility that there is such a thing as truthfulness and justice in this universe.

Salem21

Good point Tom…If I ever came under scrutiny as you put it, They would tear my ass off of all my words on here alone. Like dik Turpin, I would rather jump before being pushed off the gallows!
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. John F. Kennedy

feinmann0

And, as we step further into an Orwellian future:
Even if you think you have applied sufficient encryption to hide your arguably pornographic and thus prosecutable images of a near naked Mowgli, the US police are requesting the development and implementation of a mechanism that would give law enforcement agencies backdoor access to secure technologies and communications. They cite encryption is making criminal investigations increasingly difficult. Rather ironic don’t you think, seeing that the very same US police took more assets from the public than burglars did in 2014?
Oh, and lest we forget those lawyers who have also benefited massively in waging the Puritan war against sexuality …
One of the latest penal codes on sexual assault to be considered in the US would essentially have the government regulating each and everyone’s sex life. Nearly every sexual encounter would be defined as rape unless neither party reports the activity. So passionate acts would become contractual such that from the moment any physical contact is about to be made, one person must begin asking for permission.

Sapphocidaire

It isn’t “messed up”: it’s expertly designed by feminists and identity politics totalitarians to target and destroy you and other males like you.

Salem21

Since the death of the late, great Prince, It was common knowledge they him and MJ were bitter rivals — though not always bitter, they played Basketball together at one time. Prince once refused to play in a duet with him because of some of the lyrics…”The first line in that song is, ‘your butt is mine’, now who gonna sing that to whom? Because you sure ain’t singing that to me. And I sure ain’t singing that to you.”.all good stuff

Sapphocidaire

It is now relevant to point out how that anti-pedo bigot and genocidaire of boys Sinead O’Connor butchered Nothing Compares To You. With her schmaltzy delivery exuding from the ponderous smudge of ugly synth-strings, this po-faced bitchtress aunty of all self-indulgent ’empowered’ female pop ‘stars’ topped it all off with a contrived tear to show she has never and will never know true love except for that which she feels for herself, the nasty cunt. All the power and frustration, the implied melody, of the original, is lost. Jimmy Scott’s is the true cover of that track.

Sapphocidaire

Tom, Disney was a fascist so why don’t you censor him?

leonard sisyphus mann

Ollie Johnston, one of Disney’s animators, gives the following revealing account from when he was working closely with Disney on The Jungle Book:
“Another time was, we were looking at the section of The Jungle Book where the little girl comes out and gets in the water, and the little boy’s up in the tree, and he falls into the water. She senses that he’s following her, so she drops the jug after a ways, and this continues all the way up, and the boy looks back at us [the audience] and shrugs his shoulders, and then he turns around and looks at the little girl, and she wrinkles her nose up at him. That’s one of the best drawings I ever did. And Walt turned to me and said, ‘That’s a pretty sexy little girl, Ollie.’ That was the last time we ever had a meeting with him.”
You can see a clip of that scene here:
https://youtu.be/B1-BE_ASSyA

A.

Interesting quote there. In that same version, ‘Bare/Bear Necessities’ (if I recall correctly) features Baloo scratching his own back against some rocks until he quite explicitly has an orgasm. This is repeated in The Aristocats, which I always think is an underrated Disney, by the middle-aged dog couple Napoleon and Lafayette.

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