Mutual support aimed at self-acceptance

Support for those who are sexually attracted to minors and who feel lonely, depressed and desperate on account of their orientation is not conspicuously available in most countries. All that is offered is brain-washing aimed at bullying so-called “offenders” and presumptive “ticking time bombs” into cowed submission to the law.
At least in the Netherlands, though, there is an alternative. It has been pioneered by an old friend of mine, Dr Frans Gieles, who is well known in the kind community as the long-time leading light of the  organisation Ipce, which has run a discussion forum and annual conferences for many years and is now of global significance thanks to its superb online library of scientific and other scholarly resources. In today’s guest blog Frans put us in the picture regarding the humane – law-abiding but non-judgmental – mutual help groups he has organised and developed over several decades, with individual therapy offered as an alternative or supplement.
Frans, a true “wise old man” of our movement, was born in 1941. A grandfather now, many years ago he used to be a house-father and a staff member in children’s homes and a foster father at home. A qualified therapist and expert in education, his PhD thesis was on conflict management and meta-methodology.  Frans has his own website.
 

HELPING PEOPLE IN THE NETHERLANDS WITH PAEDOPHILIC FEELINGS

Looking back …
… to the 1980s: we then had 18 self-help groups in the Netherlands, mostly under the umbrella of the NVSH, the Dutch Association for Sexual Reform. This organization is unique, with nothing quite like it anywhere else in the world. Early in its history it played a pioneering role in the encouragement of family planning. Supporting openness about sexuality and the acceptance of sexual diversity, the NVSH offers counselling and support for minorities. This has long included paedophiles as well as gays.
Now, all that is left is a single self-help workgroup that organizes two “encounter groups”, one for the eastern part of the country and the other for the west. These offer individual counselling and therapy. The term “encounter groups” comes from the work of psychologist Carl Rogers, who developed the idea of non-directive therapy. Participants in the groups are encouraged to share thoughts and emotional reactions that arise in response to their fellow participants’ actions and statements. The emphasis is on sharing emotions, rather than on judging people.
What happened?
Internal conflicts, conflicts with the local NVSH board, misbehaviour of members or simply lack of members or leadership. Within society, the climate changed from around the mid-1980s onwards.  Relative tolerance towards paedophilia turned into rejection and hostility, so people became afraid to join groups associated with it.
A major development in 2014 cranked up this environment of hostility, when pro-paedophile organisation Vereniging Martijn (the Association Martijn, usually called just “Martijn”) was banned by the Supreme Court of the Netherlands. Martijn had advocated for the societal acceptance of paedophilia and the legalization of sexual relationships between adults and children. The court reinstated (following a successful appeal) an earlier ruling in a lower court that the association’s actions and statements were in conflict with the accepted norms and values of Dutch society and that the ban was needed in order to protect children. In 2015, an appeal by the association to the European Court for Human Rights (ECHR) was rejected.
Who survived?
The NVSH Workgroup, called “JORis”, a name which stands for “Youth-Adult Relationship, intimacy, sexuality”. This workshop survived under the umbrella of the national NVSH Board, now with two encounter groups: JON (= JORis East Netherlands) and West.
Especially after the end of the Association Martijn in 2014, more people became members of the JON group, who started a second encounter group in the West in 2015. New members kept coming in and continue to do so, so that there are now about 50 members. Regularly, both groups have to split themselves into two subgroups.
JORis and society: bridges to build
In the Netherlands, we have several institutions for “ambulant” forensic-psychiatric care. “Ambulant” means you get there under your own steam. You go along for an appointment at an office in town rather than being treated residentially in a clinic or other institution. Most of the clients are referred on a mandatory basis, sent by the court; but the care centres are also open for people going there voluntarily, most of them referred by health care institutions. But those who go voluntarily often complain that they are treated simply and solely as potential offenders, especially if they are obliged to join group sessions. So they leave.
These forensic-psychiatric institutions and the JORis groups used to exist in two almost entirely separate worlds. JORis, for their part, accepted the work of those institutions and their methodology, but the respect was not mutual. The institutions did not accept the existence and methodology of the JORis groups. Frequently, the institutions often forbade their clients from having contact with anyone else who admitted to paedophilic feelings: this made it impossible for them to join the self-help oriented JORis.
This has changed in the last couple of years.
At least, a bridgehead has been built. The forensic and mental health institutions have begun to refer clients to coordinators and therapists working with the JORis. With these professionally qualified figures seen as responsible intermediaries, clients are now being allowed to join the groups. Bridges not yet built are those over the gap between probation/rehabilitation officers and the JORis groups, and also between JORis and the closed forensic-psychiatric institutions.
The methodology: encounter groups
What kind of social setting works best for these help-seekers?
The encounter groups are primarily self-help groups. There is no “therapist” with “clients”: people help each other if they need help. Often, they are helped simply by the opportunity to speak openly.
The main methodology is narrative. Members are asked to tell their own, authentic personal story. They are asked to listen carefully, without expressing any kind of judgment or giving unwanted advice, and also without interruptions such as “Oh, in my case …” or “In my opinion …” They are stimulated to ask questions, to try to understand each other, and to acknowledge others’ contributions in their replies. Sometimes, a metaphor may be helpful: “Your story tells me you have been like a tortoise hiding fearfully under your shell; but now you are venturing out of it.”
Themes for the conversation are seldom set beforehand; rather, they should emanate from the group discussion. Sometimes, a theme will emerge in response to a topic that is clearly one of lively concern among the members.
We see this methodology working if members are asked to tell their narrative again, e.g. if a new member enters the group. We then hear that the narrative has changed, has developed itself, and thus that the person is developing himself. For instance, the first narrative is often something like, “I blame society for …” and “They” are held responsible. Later on the word “I” appears in the narrative instead of “they”.  Also, the first story is often “I am afraid of …, so I avoid …” or a story of fear, isolation or obsession. Later on, a kind of courage may appear, a kind of knowing how to live and to act – or how not to live and not to act.
The theme of “self-acceptance” is especially important and basic. Only with at least the beginnings of self-acceptance will people be able to search for ways of living that are legal, social, and maybe even happy. The members are mostly men, ranging from 18 to 81, so to say. Most questions come from our members in their twenties. The older ones may be a model for the younger ones, but also the younger ones for each other.
Also, downloading pictures is regularly a theme – not with the question “How can I do it?”, but “How can I stop it?”
The ethics of the group imply avoiding sexual contact with children, at least  in future. Most members do not even want such contacts; they want contact with children, not sex with children. Some say “I might want this if it were ever to become legal, but in reality I actually avoid sexual contacts”.
The group conversation is quite strictly led along these lines. This is to prevent the conversation from running in all directions, in which case members might complain “my head is getting overloaded”. This is an especially important consideration for members who are on the autistic spectrum but it applies to others too. They will say, “This group and what I am hearing here confronts me with myself. This is heavy. My head is quickly full.”
In the individual contacts, self-help and the narrative method is the first form. In some of the contacts, if these are more or less therapy, other methods may be used as well. The first is the non-directive way, but sometimes a more directive or cognition-led way may be better.
Our methodology is described in more detail here.
How does the group work in practice?
In 2015, the structure of both groups was changed. Both groups have a small team of coordinators, together with one central coordinator who is also the conversation leader of both groups: that person is me. Both groups have professional therapists connected to the group. We are able to give therapy to those who ask for it. I am a qualified therapist with a PhD.
The possibilities offered are:

  • Participating in one of the two encounter groups;
  • or in a smaller subgroup;
  • individual contact with one (or two) coordinators and/or active members;
  • individual contact with a professional counsellor or therapist, within JORis or without JORis;
  • partner interviews with (a pair of) professional counsellors.

All combinations are possible.
The individual contacts, offered in connection with group attendance or instead of it, were started because some members felt the group sessions were often “too heavy”. The individual sessions or subgroups allow the full groups to be lighter in tone.
Both groups meet each month on a Sunday from 3pm to 9pm, including a long pause and a dinner; these breaks provide opportunities for mutual contacts and for speaking about whatever one wishes.
Membership is free. Members are asked to make a donation towards the costs of running the group and for the dinner; their travel costs may be subsidised or fully covered. From last year onwards the NVSH has been providing a subsidy and a modest degree of financial recompense for the otherwise entirely unpaid voluntary work of the coordinator/therapist.
Whoever comes along to the groups makes their own personal introduction to the central coordinator. This introduction must be truly personal in the sense that their full identity must be given: that is, with their real name, address and photo ID, such as a passport. The coordinator listens carefully to the new person, without any judgment. The types of help on offer are described and there is a discussion as to what would be the best option for the newcomer. Using a nickname to participate in the groups is allowed, as long as the coordinators know the real data.
There is often anxiety over going into a group. In those cases, individual contact with the central coordinator, or a small subgroup, is offered. Such contacts can be lengthy, even lasting several years, before the person dares to enter a group – if ever.
Themes
Some important themes are:

  • Fear
  • Parents
  • Self-acceptance
  • “There is a monster within me”
  • Diagnoses
  • Isolation

These themes are mentioned with an explanation in our Report 2016 A.

  • “A group is scary and heavy”
  • Again: Self-acceptance
  • Therapists
  • “Downloading”

These themes are mentioned with an explanation in our Report 2016 B.
Secondary Problems
A number of people arrive with a history of problems, including “helpers” who failed to help. So they often have plural diagnoses and are on medication. There are also secondary problems: depression, suicidal thoughts, (severe) autism, neuroses, attachment problems, borderline personality disorder, psychosis, addiction – and more.
These problems are not inherently connected with paedophilic feelings, but, in our current society, they may occur in combination with it and so are said to be co-morbid. We do not know what causes what. It is hard to distinguish cause from effect. Causality could even run in both directions, or the association between different types of problem could be random.
Young people
Recent research confirms quite exactly our experience with young people.
The mean age for becoming conscious of one’s paedophilic feelings is 15. The mean age of “coming out” for the first time is … 22. To whom? Usually to one’s mother or a friend.
Note that between the mean of 15 and the mean of 22, lies a mean of seven years: seven years of lonely worrying and puzzling.
How many people in their teens or twenties are left facing all this anxiety on their own? We must reach out a hand to them.
Sooner or later they may reach the point of self-acceptance, and gradually find a manageable, and perhaps even happy, way of living sociably and within the law. Members in their thirties or forties, maybe in their mid-life crisis, as well as older people have also found that way.
They are not “offenders” and they surely do not want ever to become a perpetrator. They do not recognize themselves as in a “treatment” programme that approaches them only as a potential offender. They need to be approached as “non-offenders” – thus they need a methodology and an underlying theory quite different to that of current offender treatment.
Their narrative, and that of the JORis groups, is given above and in our annual reports.
Reports
Here below: (a) the recent research report just mentioned, (b) again our methodology described, (c) our three most recent (half-)annual reports, followed by (d) my website about “Helping People with Paedophilic Feelings”, in which I combat the current offender treatment methodology and offer alternatives for it.

  • (a) Cash, Brian Martin; Self-identifications, sexual development and well-being in minor-attracted people: an exploratory study – A Thesis – August 2016 – Faculty of the Graduate School of Cornell University.
  • (b) The narrative that may be told … in the self-help groups JON and JORis West.
  • (c) JON report 2016 a.
  • (c) JON report 2016 b.
  • (c) JON report 2017; and:
  • (d) Helping people.

 
 

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T, Rivas

Yesterday, February 17th 2020, Frans Gieles confessed to me by e-mail that he really opposed striving for emancipation of relationships nowadays, in the specific sense of the legalization of voluntary, monitored erotic relationships, even in the long run, because in his view there would always be an unpredictable inherent risk of psychological harm, even in the case of such exemplary relationships and against a much more tolerant societal background. For Frans, emancipation has become strictly about stigma, not about relationships. I repeat: not even in the distant future!
I had asked Frans rather bluntly about his current exact position, after having read a recent online article of his, which strongly suggested his present views. By the way,I have the rather strong impression that he already opposed the future legalization of voluntary, monitored erotic relationships when we were having our discussion in this thread, in 2018. Somehow, he seems to have preferred remaining silent about this.
One thing seems certain: Ideologically, Frans has joined the ranks of Stop It Now, No-MAPs and VirPeds. I suppose that some may actually consider this good news.
By the way, this also confirms my assessment back then that SIN was NOT becoming more like JON, but the exact opposite. And SIN The Netherlands is just as negative about any type of non-abstinent pedophilia as its British counterpart.

peterhoo

This is what I focus on, “One thing seems certain: Ideologically, Frans has joined the ranks of Stop It Now, No-MAPs and VirPeds. I suppose that some may actually consider this good news.”
This I read as a confirmation about cultural issues rather than a comment about Fran’s psychological state of mind. In may spaces the counseling/therapy worlds, and the societal cultural climates they work inside, resemble what we have come to believe happened in the Middle Ages for Catholicism. (Actually I hold the view it was more diverse than popular culture believes.) The lack of diverse views and ideas, and the moralistic flavor of our times is what I refer to here.
We dare not trust each other, call it monitoring, call it policing, the behaviour is rather similar, the belief is consent is impossible, and that time will provide trauma and regret regarding any choices made which we judge in the present to be positive and/or emancipatory.

T, Rivas

Thanks for your comment, Peter. I’ll respond below.
“This I read as a confirmation about cultural issues rather than a comment about Frans’s psychological state of mind. “
Wrong, I;m afraid. I was talking about his current beliefs. This is not just a question of respecting and adapting to contemporary culture. He simply does not believe that one can take away the -in his view inherent – risks of voluntary erotic relationships. So regardless of the cultural consensus or Zeitgeist.
“In may spaces the counseling/therapy worlds, and the societal cultural climates they work inside, resemble what we have come to believe happened in the Middle Ages for Catholicism. (Actually I hold the view it was more diverse than popular culture believes.) The lack of diverse views and ideas, and the moralistic flavor of our times is what I refer to here.”
My point is that Frans has really internalized the dominant views. It’s not just a matter of strategic adaptation. He believes that even thoroughly monitored voluntary erotic relationships would remain too risky now and in a distant future, in which the majority would be really tolerant toward such relationships.
“We dare not trust each other, call it monitoring, call it policing, the behaviour is rather similar, the belief is consent is impossible, and that time will provide trauma and regret regarding any choices made which we judge in the present to be positive and/or emancipatory.”
Correct, but this is not the point. Frans has come to believe that there is something inherently risky about erotic relationships (a mysterious factor X), even if they are truly consensual AND monitored by the parents or care-takers AND if they (only) involve the same type of eroticism the children in question already practice with themselves or peers.
In the past he simply stated that the risk could be both intrinsic and exogenous, but nowadays he believes it is an inherent part of erotic relationships. Not because of a lack of consent (he still does believe there are individual truly consensual erotic relationships that cause no harm) but because of some mysterious effect that even voluntary relationships could have on certain children. One would not know how and on what children exactly, as the effect would be unpredictable so that it would be immoral to support the struggle for the emancipation of voluntary erotic relationships. Such an emancipation would inevitably put children at risk, in his opinion.
By the way, I used to encounter this kind of argumentation quite often, when I was still engaged in online debates about the topic with many types of people.
It is what inspired me to add the following passage to the Discussion in my book Positive Memories:
“Supporters of a popular myth of the inherent unpredictability of harm typically refuse to differentiate between the consequences of morally sound relationships and the impact of irresponsible contacts, and between secondary victimisation related to social condemnation of a relationship and real, intrinsic abuse. […]
Of course, as a researcher, I remain open to possible other complications that I wouldn’t have covered yet, but as it stands, my analysis seems pretty exhaustive. A logical, though admittedly hardly plausible, possibility I haven’t mentioned yet, is that completely voluntary erotic activity is intrinsically harmless unless it involves children with specific genetic predispositions or personality types.”

T. Rivas

By the way, as I just said, Frans still believes in the existence of voluntary erotic relationships that turn out to be harmless in the long run. That is probably why I’m still allowed to issue a last, 4th edition of Positive Memories via Ipce, even though he still seems to be “in charge”.
It appears that he believes the cases in this book can serve, not as a tool for the responsible emancipation of voluntary erotic relationships, which he has come to oppose, but as an argument for a less harsh and more understanding view and treatment of non-violent pedophiles. They still should abstain as a matter of principle, and any relationships should ultimately be considered irresponsible (even the ones that turned out to be safe in terms of psychological harm), but non-violent pedophiles may in a sense be quite innocent and sincere and should be treated as such.:
Let him correct me if I’m wrong about any ot this.

[…] F. Helping people in the Netherlands with paedophilic feelings. Disponível em: < https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2018/07/09/mutual-support-aimed-at-self-acceptance/ >. Acessado em: […]

[…] appears to be a much more humane organisation than its British equivalent. They work closely with Dr Frans Gieles and with JORis, a Dutch MAP group; JON is its counterpart in a different part of the country. They […]

[…] Helping people in the Netherlands with paedophilic feelings, in Heretic TOC. Retrieved from: < https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2018/07/09/mutual-support-aimed-at-self-acceptance/ >. Date of access: 09/13/18. HENLEY, J. Paedophilia: bringing dark desires to light, in The […]

[…] Helping people in the Netherlands with paedophilic feelings, in Heretic TOC. Retrieved from: < https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2018/07/09/mutual-support-aimed-at-self-acceptance/ >. Date of access: […]

daniel

Poor Cesca and Jonah its a very emotional episode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7VlmxD1gfM

Frances

link to video is for invites only…

warbling j turpitude

The photograph here alone could be captioned *THIS is why I am a MAP/Kind/paedophile!* https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/americans-are-rapidly-warming-porn-new-gallup-poll-shows-heres-why
I can’t even begin to unpack my thoughts concerning what it says about America and the World that this is what pornography means to most – garishly and gruesomely painted clowns! They might as well be shiny, efficient automobiles!

T. Rivas

Here is my final reply to Frans. He may respond to it once more, but I won’t reply to that anymore.
Frans replied: Some have clear standpoints, others are still thinking or puzzling. Some are a member since twenty years, others two or twenty months. There is not a “JORis Opinion”. There is a global agreement, but also diversity.
T. Rivas: My question was whether the majority did not have clear standpoints on this. And my question was asked because of what you said before. This is NOT a satisfactory reply to my question, sorry.
Frans replied: Emancipation: neutral or pro. Ideology: globally within the group’s agreement, but also here is some diversity, but still good cooperation.
Comment: Another very vague answer. And do you want me to believe that none of your “star” therapists are AGAINST emancipation in the relational sense? Maybe so, but you should be clearer about things, before I could believe this.
Frans wrote: … gradually creating room within the (ambulant) forensic-psychiatric institutions to use the narrative methodology instead of the methodology of the offender treatment, at least for the non-offenders, is a modest contribution to emancipation
Comment: Are we even talking about the same thing, when we’re using the word “emancipation”?
Frans replies: No, not naive. It is a slow process in which we carefully and thoughtfully, take step by step. I have spoken about “ bridge head”, not about “a bridge”. I also used the word “gradually”.
Between and within those institutions are differences. Those under the label named “De Waag” are gradually changing, as is “StopItNow!”, at least for non-offenders. Others, with names as “Kairos”, “Het Dok”, “De Tender”, and others are not reachable for us, just as the closed institutions and most of the Rehabilitation offices. There are seven offices of De Waag in the NLs, in which we hope to find seven ‘good’ therapists, one in each office. Thus: “gradually” and “bridge head”.
Comment: So I’m not entitled to call it naive if you really believe that forensic workers are not generally against emancipation? That’s really asking a lot. Too much, to be frank.
Frans replied: “What if ….?” The group listens to each one’s personal narrative, thus hears different narratives, among which also what you mention: repression, injustice, etc. etc. Each member gets personal reactions, questions, understanding; advices are avoided unless asked for. In that case, the advises will differ. The communication is personal, on the individual level, not on the general level, thus not on the level of general emancipation once in future, but around the question how to live within present-day society.
Comment: Meaning that there is no social pressure against pro-emancipation members to change their minds, at least not as a rule? Clarity, Frans, we need clarity! What could be so incomprehensible about that?
Frans replied: My experiences are different and without any paradox.
BTW, being a Christian is not automatically linked with resistance to pedophile feelings. Several members are Christians. For me: my whole church knows about my feelings, but here is nearly not any resistance. Contrarily, everyone can see how I go about with the children, nobody has any complaint, what I meet is respect.
Comment: Well, I was talking only about conservative Christians!! You must have read that.
Frans replied: You write that they are “explicitly against any (acceptance of) erotic contact with minors.” Let’s compare this with the next quote:
“I endorse the idea that within present-day society it is morally wrong for an adult with “pedophile” feelings to engage in a sexual or even close platonic relationship with a child”,
taken from yourself on
https://www.ipce.info/host/rivas_interview/twenty_questions.html , point 5.
The difference is not so great. The difference is: “within present-day society”. It is not a black and white contrast.
Comment: The difference is really enormous and I’d expect you to understand that!
Frans: About having relationships with children, we all agree “within present-day society” to avoid sexual contacts. About (close) platonic relationships, the opinions and choices differ. There is not a “JORis Opinion”, there is diversity.
Comment: It would have helped if you sketched the general atmosphere, the proportions regarding opinions within the group. Now we simply have to believe you on your word without relevant details..
Frans: (a) You can fruitfully collaborate without adopting the other’s convictions.
Comment: Really? On what issues, in this particular case? What would collaboration consist of? Give us some examples please.
Frans: (b) About abstinence, we agree about “within present-day society”. That is what counts today and the next decennia.
Comment: As I said before, it matters enormously if one considers this a matter of principle or just something that is time bound.
Frans: (c) “… whipe out pedophilia altogether”, or “…everyone could become ‘normal’” : No; they know and acknowledge that this is impossible.
Comment: Again, this is not what I was saying. I was talking about what they would like to do.
Frans: Masturbation with legal images is fully accepted by all, at least by the professionals I know.
My sources: contacts with therapists and narratives told by members who have therapists.
Comment: If this is true, then that is a positive point, agree. The first and last within your reply, I’m afraid.
Frans replied: Note your words: “can only happen”, “fully accept”, “losing … identity”, “unthinkable”, “ever”: strong words, referring to a black and white contrast.
Comment: If only you learned to communicate a bit more clearly, maybe you could learn something or even a lot from me in this respect! Anyway, this problematization of my terminology is not conductive to a good “dialogue”, I must say.
Frans: What is the point? The point is that they just strive to a more open etc. approach. It is not “unthinkable”, it is just happening. For a bridge(head), you have neither to accept fully the discourse of the other, nor losing your identity.
Comment: But what is the point if there is hardly ANY common ground between parties, Frans?!? This really remains completely in the dark, due to your remarkable communication.
Frans replies: Each half year, we have just such a meeting – without any hostility. ‘Hostility’ is apparently present in your way of thinking, not present in practice. There are differences, no hostility, but respect.
Comment: I find this really uncalled for!
Frans replied: The crux of a dialogue is to acknowledge the difference in convictions and to respect each other’s convictions, not to convince or convert the other. A dialogue is not a debate. If a dialogue is meant to create room for cooperation, diversity works better than uniformity. The crux of democracy is diversity, not uniformity. A state in which only one political party with only one ideology is doomed to fail. A workgroup and an encounter group work better with diversity of opinions. A global agreement about the aims will suffice.
Comment: It hardly seems possible without some common ground. There hardly seems to be any common ground, especially with the therapists and institutions you have your dialogues with.
Frans: “Show me the error in these thoughts.”: The error in your thoughts is confounding the concepts ‘dialogue’ and ‘debate’, thus thinking in terms of ‘black and white contrasts’, seeing yourself as ‘white’, thus the other as ‘black’, and by doing so creating a dichotomy, ‘an enemy’, thus ‘a war’.
Comment: This is silly. In this particular context, dialogue automatically implies debate. These are not neutral topics, free of values or ethics and unrelated to one’s general world view or anthropology.
Frans: Who uses and beliefs in the metaphor ‘war’, creates war, enemies, combat, and creates the label ‘betrayer’ for someone who even talks with ‘the enemy’.
Comment: You seem to be insinuating things. I find this really unpleasant.
Frans: In contrast, my way of thinking and acting is always trying to connect people, using communication, seeing them as fellow human beings (with a different opinion, which is their right), building bridges, searching for nuances. Result: a bridge head.
Comment: Well, you certainly fail to be a bridge head toward me here.
Frans: Thus, workers for the long term ideal ‘emancipation’, and workers for the short time ‘helping people’ should respect each other and should give the other room to do their work.
Know that the JORis groups have reached now about fifty persons, have helped people to reach self-acceptance (some within one or two years, others in a quite longer period), and have prevented suicide in several cases, not all, regrettably.
Give me room and time for this kind of work, or action, leading the two groups and maintaining many individual contacts, as well the web site, … by being content with your two long lists of questions and my two replies to them. My report and my two replies tell three times the same story. Two long lists and two long replies might be enough. If you disagree, OK, let’s agree to disagree – and each go on with each own chosen tasks.
Comment: Once more, you’re insinuating things. I gave you the opportunity to deal with my questions in a rational and civilized way. Instead you go for more vagueness, and even a few ad hominems. That’s where this dialogue ends for me. Have the last word, be my guest.
Frans: The latter, “fundamentally improve things”, is not the primary aim of the JORis groups. The priority is helping people by creating a safe room to tell their narrative and freely speak about it, primarily on the self-help level, were needed secondary on a therapeutic level helped by our ‘good’ therapists, just like the soldiers and doctors on the battle ground do, respecting the activists who work for the long-time aim to end the war. We may ask the long time activists to respect and give room to the short time helpers.
Comment: YOU were the one who implied that your groups could do a better job than Martijn.
Anyway, this is quite enough for me.
T. Rivas

stephen6000

On the issue of Stop It Now:
Another MAP and I once tried engaging the director of the British ‘Stop It Now’, Donald Findlater, in a dialogue. We eventually decided he wasn’t taking us seriously. (Though to give credit where it’s due, he does seem to oppose mandatory reporting.)
Frans is talking about the Dutch ‘Stop It Now’, which appears to be more progressive, He can tell you more about this, should he wish to.

Ed Chambers

Apparently, one of the heads of the Dutch StopItNow has some very progressive ideas, and wants to move in the direction of self acceptance therapy that improves self esteem, as opposed to how most, if not all, support therapies do for now.

daniel

Tom in the interest of diversity should we be working with ppl like virped even if we don’t agree with all their policies like Lab work with Con Tories ect?
>Members with a VirPed-like vision, as well as members with a counter vision are both minorities within the groups.

warbling j turpitude

Haven’t been able to comment for some time now..is there (another) spanner in the wordpressworks?

YES! It works again! May i cut to the chase then and ask, even as placards pleading for “NO MORE PEDO BASHING’ appear for the first time on campuses, these are inextricably caught up in the same rhetorical basket as “white supremacy”, “rape culture” and so on…the representational situation is thus as complexly and fiendishly-woven as a situation can possibly be, people are treating terms as targets with a swiftness more fevered than ever before, and aim is more wide of the goal than seven thousand ricochets could ever turn into danceable music …. did someone say good morning Vietnam?

*..ask if these are not (inextricably caught up in..)

daniel

Tom
re:stop the paedo bashing
if you and other people of similar attraction went to do a college course would you use the word paedosexual or child lover on the equal opportunities form?

daniel

Tom
so would it be ok if i was to put on the equal opportunities form ie going to a college that one could wright that they have an age of attraction in the sexuality column of the form?
>The problem boils down to the fact that sexual attraction to minors is an age attraction, not an orientation to a particular sex; so it is not legally considered to be a sexual orientation at all.

warbling j turpitude

This would seem an apposite moment to raise the problem of misgivings. If I were to cite my biggest one it would fall in this area you fellows have hit upon here, this distinction between a “sexual” and an “age” attraction. For what do we say to ourselves when our “orientation” is toward that which only exists in actuality for a comparatively fleeting moment in time? Before time itself ‘replaces’ that which we adore with, well..with something else? Something else that we are not attracted to anymore at all? Obviously this problem of progressively ‘diminishing returns’ (so to speak) must occur to some degree in relationships of every kind, but in ‘paedosexuality’ it appears to be almost the central concern?
I’m always embarrassed when, continuing to research through IPCE’s ‘back pages’ not to mention past blogs right here, I discover how many of my concerns have already been addressed in some way – but even if so, surely this is one that could use some fresh input from heretics?

T. Rivcas

Let’s not forget that not all pedophiles are exclusive pedophiles. There are cases of pedophile relationships that were continued as erotic relationships between adults after the child grew up, including in the form of a marriage. Thens, some exclusive pedophiles may continue the erotic aspects of a relationship after the minor became an adult, not because the pedophile is generally attracted to adults after all, but simply because the personal erotic attraction has not disappeared (This may be comparable to a situation of many non-pedophile middle-aged straight men who generally feel attracted to young women, but allso continue to feel such an attraction to their middle-aged wife ). It is probably more common for exclusive pedophiles to lose their erotic interest, without losing the platonic bond, unless of course the relationship had been purely physical or very superficial. Ironically a pedophile I once knew told me that he considered all relationships without physical sexual aspects “superficial” but this is obviously not what I’m talking about,
In my view, things only really become tragic if there had been real personal love, but this is being denied after the child grows up (either by the former child, or by the adult or even both) so that the relationship ends up being destroyed altogether. Being in love is something replaceable, loving a specifc person is not.

T. Rivas

Let’s not forget that not all pedophiles are exclusive pedophiles. There are cases of pedophile relationships that were continued as erotic relationships between adults after the child grew up, including in the form of a marriage. Then, some exclusive pedophiles may continue the erotic aspects of a relationship after the minor became an adult, not because the pedophile is generally attracted to adults after all, but simply because the personal erotic attraction has not disappeared in this particular case. (This may be comparable to a situation of many non-pedophile middle-aged straight men who generally feel attracted to young women, but also continue to feel such an attraction to their middle-aged wife.) I guess it is probably more common for exclusive pedophiles to lose their erotic interest in the former child, without losing the platonic bond, unless of course the relationship had been purely physical or very superficial. (Ironically, a pedophile I once met, told me that he considered all relationships without physical sexual aspects “superficial” but this is obviously not what I’m talking about, )
In my view, things only really become tragic if there had been real personal love, but this is being denied after the child grows up (either by the former child, or by the adult or even both) so that the relationship ends up being destroyed altogether, as if it never really existed. Being in love is something replaceable, but loving a specific person is not.

Nada

When relationships are prevented from beginning, why worry about their hypothetical end?

T. Rivas

It’s a mattter of being prepared for better times, when such rellationships would be legalized and integtrated into society. It would be irresponsible not to have thought about such mattetrs beforehand. This issue is important for people who actually believe in such emancipation,in the long run, not for VirPeds obviously..

Explorer

I experience technical problems with WordPress quite regularly… but one shoud get used to it, since WordPress is one of the very few platforms that respect free speech of the pro-intergen-sex people.

Explorer

Recently, there was a video on the TED Talks conference, with the (apparently) VirPed-styled message regarding paedophilia (e.g. “paedos are human beings and not monsters, but they should never, never, never act on their attraction!”). Yet even this clearly anti-contact video were received with a tsunami of seething hatred and death threats to the female speaker, who had to remove the video (seemingly) out of fear that the threats to attack her physically would be enacted:
https://www.annabelleigh.net/messages/725201.htm
https://www.annabelleigh.net/messages/725229.htm
Another reminder to us pro-intergen-sex people that seeking the illusive compromise with the people who hate us passionately (and sometimes literally murderously) is futile: can you imagine a compromise between, say, pro-racial-eqality activits and KKK members?
P.S. Was surprised of the number of “appeals to Satan” in the haters’ comments. Satanic Panic / Pizzagate still not dead?
P.P.S. Can someone provide more information about the speaker and her talk? All I have right now is indirect, that’s why all these “apparently” and “seemingly” clarifications.

ethane72

“Recently, there was a video on the TED Talks conference, with the (apparently) VirPed-styled message regarding paedophilia (e.g. “paedos are human beings and not monsters, but they should never, never, never act on their attraction!”). Yet even this clearly anti-contact video were received with a tsunami of seething hatred and death threats to the female speaker, who had to remove the video (seemingly) out of fear that the threats to attack her physically would be enacted”
Regardless of your position on the contact issue, this is a flawed line of reasoning and conclusion. Yes, there are virulent haters, and we would all love to thin their ranks by changing minds. But do not infer numerical strength from the loudness of the bellowing. There are a great many moderates who are open to the VP message and we are making real progress with them.
An analogy might be Trump voters. It is worrisome that there are so many people who support him, and we would love to convince some to give up such views. However, they are in a distinct minority, even though their candidate is in power at present. It is possible to make much progress by simply outvoting them. Someone might argue that there is no more hope of restoring liberal democracy than bringing about the dictatorship of the proletariat, so we might as well work for the latter.
It would be interesting to poll the public on a no-holds-barred anti-pedophile view, a Virtuous Pedophiles position, and a pro-legalization position. My guess for the split? 55-40-5, and I think the 40 is growing and the 55 is shrinking.

Nada

There are a great many moderates who are open to the VP message and we are making real progress with them.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Let’s pretend a great many is merely 10%.
What evidence do have you that 10% of the US adult population rejects pedophile genocide, rejects pedophile concentration camps? Rejects placing arbitrary conditions, such as chemical castration, theraphy, no contact with children or no free speech, on them?
As for politics, I don’t imagine those rejecting a candidate over what amounts to heterosexuality (Trump, Moore) would be more open-minded to pedophilia.

Explorer

“My guess for the split? 55-40-5, and I think the 40 is growing and the 55 is shrinking.”
Ethan, to call you view “too optimistic” is to be generous… “Completely mistaking one’s dream for the actual reality” would be more precise.
My estimate, which I dare to call pretty realistic: anti-paedos – 99,9; anti-contacts – 0,09; pro-contacts – 0,01.
Sound pessimistic, isn’t it? Not necessary. In the beginning of their struggles to change societal attitudes and institutions, feminists, racial egalitarians, gay liberationists and other liberation movements had to face the comparable level of negativity – and outright hostility – directed towards them. And they won.
The important fact to remember, however, is that no liberatory movement can succeed alone – all triumphs of freedom happened in the epochs of the large-scale, complex libertarian rebellions which included multiple diverse libertarian movements effectively working together – or, at least, alongside each other. 1960s – 1970s was such an epoch.
Yet nowadays, close to the beginning of the 2020s, the overall situation is quite ugly – while the elites are quiclky losing their legitimacy in eyes of the people (much like they did in the mid-20th century), the current rebellious forces tend to be authoritarian and reactionary rather than liberetarian and progressive. Speaking shortly, the modern anti-establishment types are also very often anti-freedom; they are much more likely to believe that the elites are a worldwide Satanic paedo-ring and act as moralistic vigilantes rather than put the repressive sexual moralism under question and revolt against it for the sake of more free and humane sexual ethics.
In these dark times, we MUST survive, so our message will persist until the general societal tendencies – or, at least, the tendencies in the anti-establishment circles – are changed again to be pro-freedom rather than anti-freedom.

Explorer

An important clarification: not all of the 99,9% of the paedophiles I mentioned are ACTIVE paedo-haters or vigilantes. The latter are small minority – yet a minority whose actions are, unfortunately, accepted and approved by the vast majority.
Another clarification: the 0,1% of not-anti-paedophiles is still more than just a few people, so it is natural that VirPed message would have some positive responce and platformig. Yet VirPeds should remember that people sympathetic to them, while they may seem quite numerous in comparison of the pro-contact supporters are still a small minority among the general society (which is overtly anti-paedophile).

Explorer

A correction: “not all of the 99,9% of ANTI-paedophiles”, I meant above.

Christian

Explorer, your statistics (99.9% anti, 0.09% virtuous and 0.01% pro-choice) seem extremely pessimistic. Indeed, about 1 or 2% of men are exclusive paedophiles, and about 20-25% have strong paedophilic tendencies, so with your estimation, most of them should be self-haters.
Don’t forget that those who scream loudest (the media and trolls) do not represent the majority. Many people have no clear opinion, some of them have a dissenting opinion but do not dare to express it and prefer to appear mainstream. Also, many dissenters are censored, for instance when they comment articles in mainstream media, or on social networks.

Explorer

“Indeed, about 1 or 2% of men are exclusive paedophiles, and about 20-25% have strong paedophilic tendencies, so with your estimation, most of them should be self-haters.”
I meant people who are not paedosexuals at all – neither exclusive nor even having notable tendencies. Among them, how many hold ideas that are at least VirPed-like, let alone pro-contact? What do you think?

Ed Chambers

Well said Explorer, yes we must survive.

daniel

Ed Chambers
would society be less aggressive when it comes to helping children (under 16) who have MAP feelings?

Explorer

As the treatment of the “juvenile sex offenders” show, society would hardly be more humane to the sexually active kids that it is to the adult paedosexuals.
It is ugly. Yet it is also perfectly uderstandable: fearful repression of the child and adolescent sexuality is the real root of the “paedo panic”.

daniel

Explorer
>As the treatment of the “juvenile sex offenders” show, society would hardly be
more humane to the sexually active kids that it is to the adult paedosexuals.
but isn’t it societies job to protect the children “that’s what they say”

T. Rivas

Hi Explorer,
I found this informative link about it: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tedx-pedophilia-sexual-orientation/
This seems to be (part of) the TED-talk on YouTube: https://youtu.be/taQMU5K0ykA
And here is speaker Mirjam Heine, who has a BSc in Psychology and currently is in “med school” at the University of Würzburg (Germany): – https://www.tedxuniwuerzburg.de/speaker/mirjam-heine/
She clearly embodies the classic, “positive” VirPed message
Organizations like SOS Enfants (on their French page on Facebook) seem to find her message extremely naive irresponsible, because accepting pedophilia as a natural orientation would also imply that pedophilia deserves some type of erotic expression. This would lead to escalation (from masturbation based on fantasy through child porn to violent child abuse). The only safe way of dealing with pedophilia is therefore continuing to treat it as a degenerate and downright evil perversion, or so they seem to think.

Christian

The types of comments described in your link are typically those by trolls. I have received many such comments on Agapeta, and never published any of them. They usually denounce paedophilia, but sometimes also homosexuality and abortion; some of them are openly religious of the Protestant fundamentalist type (even enjoining me to repent), but many more are openly anti-Semitic, I have been called “Disgusting Jewish pedophile” and “You putrid mass of Jewish slime”. Maybe TED removed the anti-Semitic comments.
As saw ethane72, these trolls abusing Internet anonymity do not represent the majority. This reminds me the case of the photographer Wyatt Newmann who photographed is 2-y-o daughter, including in the nude, and got such hateful comments, leading to having his Facebook and Instagram accounts closed. Then he made an exhibition titled “I feel sorry for your children” (sentence taken from one of these comments), where he showed the photographs together with the comments. Visitors generally were positive, and some warmly supported him. See the following links:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/21/wyatt-neumann_n_5683243.html
https://pigtailsinpaint.org/2014/09/badge-of-honor-2/
Titus Rivas mentions the position of SOS Enfants opposing Mirjam Heine. There is in France an NGO devoted to child sexual abuse with a VP orientation (paedophiles are born that way, it is an orientation, but sex is dangerous for children): L’Ange Bleu. It even sent a woman, former victim of incest, to live some time with a celibate paedophile. Such an organisation does not get any support from the State and lives on meagre resources.
All rich mainstream organisations dealing with “child sexual abuse” get support (financial and other) from the State. As forensic psychiatrists working directly for the State and paid by it, they will repeat the official doctrine of the police State: paedophiles are perverts who must either submit to therapy or face repression and stigmatisation. There is no room even for a VP view within the police State and its paid servants.
I agree thus that it is pointless to try to build a bridge towards such organisations and such forensic “therapists”, as suggested by Frans Gieles. As says Explorer: “can you imagine a compromise between, say, pro-racial-equality activists and KKK members?”
ethane72 says: “Someone might argue that there is no more hope of restoring liberal democracy than bringing about the dictatorship of the proletariat, so we might as well work for the latter.” Indeed.

Libertine
daniel

Child Pornography and Legality
What i think could be beneficial is virtual child porn, and i’m sure paedophiles who honour the word paedophile would agree, and i know that the same can be said for other sexualities we need a guaranteed way if we are to prove we are not out to exploit and i think hetrosexuals ect should do the same given the current state of things.

Libertine

Dan…..If one has no problem with adult/child sex, Why would they have a problem with pornography with kids in it?

daniel

Libertine
>pornography
i am telling the public that if there is a chance a child/adult is unfairly being forced/manipulated into being in these photographs then the same should apply to all not just paedophiles there is no way of knowing for certain if any 1 has been treated unfairly in the images or not and if an organisation/industry or whatever can find a guaranteed way of proving consent took place then great otherwise the only other alternative i can think of is virtual porn.

Libertine

Well dan, Sex dolls are getting more advanced; Maybe before too long, It will be hard to tell the difference between the feel of a doll and a human; Soft and warm skin etc. But it is illegal to buy them, Some argue, They will get tired of the doll and move onto a real child. of course, They never mention the cathartic effect a good doll could have, And that it could help alleviate sexual frustration.
Look at the Milton Diamond study conducted in Japan for example.
Also, as for as adult porn is concerned, how many women do you think are coerced in those films, very few I’d say. If CP was legal, people would be confident in reporting it, they would not report it as things are.

daniel

Libertine
dont people report internet child porn anyway and if it was legal how could one report it?
>If CP was legal, people would be confident in reporting it, they would not report it as things are.

T. Rivas

Well, I believe there actually IS a way to establish this.
Any types of CP should remain illegal until the former minor, now 18 years old or older, has officially consented to the release of the material. This way one can be sure enough that the erotica was not produced against the minor’s will and that he or she is sufficiently aware of possible social repercussions of its release.
There should be some kind of monitoring of this process, to make sure the former child is not put under any pressure or bribed. This monitoring should be stricter for hardcore porn than for soft erotica.
Of course, all this is only feasible in a climate of tolerance and responsible emancipation.

Ed Chambers

As T Rivas…if there were a regulated framework so that considerable lengths were taken to ensure children were not coerced into any modelling related activities, child pornography would be manageable in a meaningful and constructive way. In these circumstances the same considerations would be made to ensure proper financial compensation for the models. If one were to research the history of the Ukrainian Lolita studios of the late nineties and naughties, it’s clear to see that many girls and their families were helped as a result of the modelling. Of course, there were some bad experiences for some models, but we don’t hear of the positives from this for obvious reasons.
Child sex dolls are a no brainer, and arguably only remain illegal owing to a primitive morality discourse and the fallacy of the slippery slope. I’ve even considered learning Japanese and moving there so I can live in Trottla paradise. Perhaps readers would consider a search for Trottla Dolls for info 😉

daniel

Tom
you might want to use your own discretion when moderating this link it is a response to Ed Chambers re sex dolls
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/wdpa3x/japan-trottla-dolls-lifesize-lingerie

warbling j turpitude

Why? I ‘would have thought’ the answer was fairly obvious here? Because, just as Islamists insist that what is most central and potent (ie, Mo) to their faith may not be freely re-presented in the marketplace, so does the broad mass of Westerners find itself now insisting that what is most central to theirs – ie that the potential of our smallest, freshest beings is somehow sacrosanct, that is, that it may not be rendered as any kind of object-of-desire – meanwhile, this very interdiction generates in us…in us paedomonks, desire by the twistiest, perfectly tortured spoonful? May I sample here from the words of TOC himself, commenting on LSM’s The Consumer Child Pt 1: .”…but the key thing is that it (the unconscious paedophilia of every day life) does so unconsciously, at a subliminal level. The province of the true paedophile by contrast is desire of such high erotic strength as to be undeniable, or superliminal”.
It has never ever been possible, however, for me to even begin to imagine what my ‘superliminal’ desire would turn out to be like in a world where ‘paedophilic’ relations were accepted .. why would we say the once supposed ‘wild and untrammeled’ desire of homosexual d00ds came event-u-ally to need nothing ..less? more? than legitimacy? Assimilation to the very ..bosom of Bürgerlichkeit? Is this what we want? Oh god, I probably had the same thoughts when they first asked me what I thought about “legalizing marijuana”…
Now i only contemplate frutalina….

Nada

Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Libertine

Most MAPs on twitter are the vir-ped types, suppose their accounts are safer from being suspended. this is the sort of thing you can expect:
https://medium.com/pedophiles-about-pedophilia/attraction-and-consent-9878b328e9c9

Ed Chambers

True, but whilst I’m not holding my breath, I’m doing reasonably for now :
https://twitter.com/EdChamb70386969

Nada

Twitter claims that page doesn’t exist.
Have you been banned?

Explorer

I have just paid a visit to Ed’s Twitter page, and it is active.
So, he is not banned… for now. Good, we need more pro-contact people on Twitter, which seems to be full of VirPeds.

T. Rivas

Hi Tom,
I first wish to thank Frans for his extensive reply. Thanks for your efforts too. Let’s hope the technical problems have been fixed by now, so that my whole message becomes visible this time.
Just a few further comments, in which I address Frans directly:

Members with a VirPed-like vision, as well as members with a counter vision are both minorities within the groups. As a group of people from a minority, the group cares [for] its own minorities.Our professionals are ‘the good ones’ and are needed to influence their colleagues, also society, and to continue the work of the group in the long term.You know quite well that, as Ipce’s webmaster, I am the editor of the html-version of your book, while a JORis member is the editor of the paper version. Thus, we actually support your project, thus emancipation.(b) gradually creating room within the (ambulant) forensic-psychiatric institutions to use the narrative methodology instead of the methodology of the offender treatment, is a modest contribution to emancipationFrans: Not against emancipation, but the narrative discourse has priority over the emancipation discourse.Frans: Even in the DSM, those feelings are not a distortion.

I suppose you mean “disorder”?
You also state, Frans, that JON collaborates with Stop It Now because this mainstream organization is slowly going in your direction, if I understand you correctly. There seems to be a strange paradox in this, because Stop It Now is explicitly against any (acceptance of) erotic contact with minors. One of their leaders is a conservative Christian, if I’m not mistaken, so that for him any negotiation about this point is out of the question, a priori. In his world view, pedophilia cannot possibly be or become a positive thing.
So how could there ever be any fruitful collaboration with them, unless you share or adopt their convictions after all? In their view, abstinence clearly must not be limited to the current state of affairs. As far as I know, they would really like to wipe out pedophilia altogether, even in the sense of close platonic friendships with minors, love affairs without a physical erotic dimension, and of course masturbation (including with legal images). They would like it more than anything, if everyone could become “normal”. At least, that is what I’ve understood so far. Correct me if I’m wrong about this.
It seems that building bridges to such organizations can only happen if you fully accept their discourse, as in: losing your own identity in the case of people who actually disagree with them. It is unthinkable that organizations such as Stop It Now will ever accept a more open, less negative approach, let alone an explicit discourse of emancipation. So what is the point?
Or are you simply talking about gaining their confidence so that they will send possible clients to JON, and is there no question of an ideological meeting of minds that could lead to changing their opinion about the “evil called pedophilia”?
At best, organizations such as Stop It Now will end up acknowledging more explicitly that anyone – no matter how monstrous his or her sexuality – deserves a humane approach, but always strictly within a context of rejecting pedophilia in any erotic or platonic-amorous sense and even of denying that pedophilia can actually enrich your inner life. Any narrative or practice that is incompatible with this, will be simply met with hostility. This will not change just because you tell them you want a dialogue. It would be like a dialogue between a dogmatic Christian and an atheist about the existence of God; it may sometimes be friendly and pleasant, but they won’t adopt each other’s viewpoints or reach a compromise between them, not even partially. It’s the kind of dialogue that is doomed to fail. Show me the error in these thoughts.
Whatever Martijn may have done wrong, it seems hard to believe, for me anyway, that JON/JORis could do any better against this background, in terms of fundamentally improving things.
T. Rivas

T. Rivas

Hi Tom,
I first wish to thank Frans for his extensive reply. Thanks for your efforts too. Let’s hope the technical problems have been fixed by now, so that my whole message becomes visible this time.
Just a few further comments, in which I address Frans directly:
Frans, you stated: Members with a VirPed-like vision, as well as members with a counter vision are both minorities within the groups. As a group of people from a minority, the group cares [for] its own minorities.
My comment: What do you mean by this? That most group members don’t have clear standpoints on these matters?
Frans:Our professionals are ‘the good ones’ and are needed to influence their colleagues, also society, and to continue the work of the group in the long term.
My comment: Do you mean to say that they are neutral about emancipation rather than embracing VirPed ideology?
Frans: You know quite well that, as Ipce’s webmaster, I am the editor of the html-version of your book.
My comment: We were talking about JORis as in: the Dutch self-help groups, not about Ipce, Frans, which obviously has a much broader approach to things.
Frans: while a JORis member is the editor of the paper version. Thus, we actually support your project, thus emancipation.
My comment: He is not a typical member either, but someone who used to be involved in another organization. And again, we we’re talking about the policy within the self-help groups.
Frans: (b) gradually creating room within the (ambulant) forensic-psychiatric institutions to use the narrative methodology instead of the methodology of the offender treatment, is a modest contribution to emancipation
My comment: Isn’t this a bit naive? How can we expect forensic institutions to give room to positive and even emancipatory narratives about pedophila and pedophile relationships, if such views, by definition, clash with their basic ideology? Forensic institutes do not generally encourage any positive view on pedophilia, let alone on pedophile relationships, even platonic ones. They treat pedophilia as a burden and a serious risk.
Frans: Not against emancipation, but the narrative discourse has priority over the emancipation discourse.
My comment: What if someone’s personal narrative is all about longing for emancipation, or dealing with repression and injustice, etc.? What if the narrative is very negative about the status quo and about current prejudices and misconceptions? Or about the loss of a specific meaningful relationship with a minor because of widespread bigotry? etc.
Frans: Even in the DSM, those feelings are not a distortion.
My comment: I suppose you mean “disorder”?
You also state, Frans, that JON collaborates with Stop It Now because this mainstream organization is slowly going in your direction, if I understand you correctly. There seems to be a strange paradox in this, because Stop It Now is explicitly against any (acceptance of) erotic contact with minors. One of their leaders is a conservative Christian, if I’m not mistaken, so that for him any negotiation about this point is out of the question, a priori. In his world view, pedophilia cannot possibly be or become a positive thing.
So how could there ever be any fruitful collaboration with them, unless you share or adopt their convictions after all? In their view, abstinence clearly must not be limited to the current state of affairs. As far as I know, they would really like to wipe out pedophilia altogether, even in the sense of close platonic friendships with minors, love affairs without a physical erotic dimension, and of course masturbation (including with legal images). They would like it more than anything, if everyone could become “normal”. At least, that is what I’ve understood so far. Correct me if I’m wrong about this.
It seems that building bridges to such organizations can only happen if you fully accept their discourse, as in: losing your own identity in the case of people who actually disagree with them. It is unthinkable that organizations such as Stop It Now will ever accept a more open, less negative approach, let alone an explicit discourse of emancipation. So what is the point?
Or are you simply talking about gaining their confidence so that they will send possible clients to JON, and is there no question of an ideological meeting of minds that could lead to changing their opinion about the “evil called pedophilia”?
At best, organizations such as Stop It Now will end up acknowledging more explicitly that anyone – no matter how monstrous his or her sexuality – deserves a humane approach, but always strictly within a context of rejecting pedophilia in any erotic or platonic-amorous sense and even of denying that pedophilia can actually enrich your inner life. Any narrative or practice that is incompatible with this, will be simply met with hostility. This will not change just because you tell them you want a dialogue. It would be like a dialogue between a dogmatic Christian and an atheist about the existence of God; it may sometimes be friendly and pleasant, but they won’t adopt each other’s viewpoints or reach a compromise between them, not even partially. It’s the kind of dialogue that is doomed to fail. Show me the error in these thoughts.
Whatever Martijn may have done wrong, it seems hard to believe, for me anyway, that JON/JORis could do any better against this background, in terms of fundamentally improving things.
T. Rivas

Ed Chambers

I know many readers here, if not all, will have had a look over Judith Levine’s website. I thought that this may, or may not, be pertinent to this latest guest blog :
http://judithlevine.com/2014/11/lena-dunham-wasnt-a-pedophile-and-neither-were-you/

daniel

Ed Chambers
do u have a link to Judith Levine website/email address?

T. Rivas

I think a lot could be said about whether VirPeds are right about certain issues or not, but regarding my questions (and those of others) to Frans, I guess this would be rather off topic. I personally fully accept the right of convinced VirPeds and similarly minded people like Ethan to believe whatever they like, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. However, what seems always objectionable from an intellectual point of view is to claim that it does not really matter whether you accept some discourse or not. Even if it could never have any practical consequences, it would still matter, in terms of freedom and (self-)respect, if you have the right to express “alternative” ideas, and especially within a context of repression and marginalization. Maybe it takes a non-VirPed to really understand the importance of intellectual freedom in such matters, but I think one may at least expect a basic empathy towards opponents. Even if VirPeds and their allies consider others naive, impractical or even psychiatrically disturbed or mentally changed or what have you, what matters here is whether groups dominated by VirPeds (et al.) accept the presence of outspoken dissidents and acknowledge their right to disagree. Back to my questions to Frans, I would say.

T. Rivas

mentally changed = mentally challenged (sorry).

Nick Devin

I know you will be outraged at the suggestion, but this sounds a lot like what we do at virped

Ed Chambers

> I am apprehensive: there is a risk that the emancipation discourse could be toned down too much in order to keep mainstream professionals on board. Once that happens the available therapy will once again be merely oppressive, and no different from typical court-ordered treatment regimes. They will suppress sexual transgression but do nothing to make people feel good about themselves: depression, suicide, etc will not be alleviated.
In a nutshell, yes, I agree completely….this would be the same type of cowardly appeasement to the dominant narrative as Virped. I am hoping that Franz would be playing a better game than this, however, I have my doubts. If a bridgehead to authority is formed, it has to be on the premise that paedophiles are a ‘problem’ and child sexuality doesn’t exist.

David

The JON site is quite clear:
JORis knows and recognises that sexual contacts with children can be harmful for the child. Not always, but the risk exists, and on forehand, you do not know how this will turn out in the future. There is the possibility that you burden the one who is so dear to you – and yourself – with a huge problem. Don’t take that risk!
(http://www.jorisoost.nl/index.html, my translation)
It is my impression that this group and the site Pedofilie.nl have a virped stance. After the Martijn verdict there is no contrary voice to this in The Netherlands anymore.

Sugarboy

Not quite so. Look at this:
https://marthijn.nl/n/

David

Marthijn Uittenbogaard has a webpage and is a very active Twitter user (https://twitter.com/MHUittenbogaard). But he has 12.800 tweets and 9 likes. Compare this with the paedophilic tweets of Ben Kirssen(https://twitter.com/Pedofiel_tweets), one of the maintentainers of http://www.pedofilie.nl, who has 24.500 tweets and 1322 likes. Ben will hardly be the most liked person on Twitter, but Marthijn fares poorly, even compared with Ben. I have ground to suspect that Marthijn is rather infamous in The Netherlands and with some regularity people try to smash his windows. So, yes, it is a voice, but a voice in the wilderness. He is probably at the moment the last person who is able to influence the discussion in a positive way. He is tainted. This is a problem Ben Kirssen and his virtuous allies does not have, at least by no means to this extent.

Ed Chambers

Thanks for this translation David. Therapy and help for paedophiles should be about guiding them on their journey through life, which is hard enough in the current climate as it is, not telling them how they should feel and / or think about both themselves or children. I would not have such a problem with Virped, and perhaps now it seems with JON & Pedophile.nl et al, if it weren’t for the fact they align themselves with therapists who arguably have no other choice but to tread a certain line on the issue. Well, certainly regards to Virped, as I found out the hard way. A far better way, for all the difficulties that may arise, would be to have a trained therapist, perhaps such as Gary Gibson (maybe….), with whom you can talk to knowing there would be no prejudice or official path that he would try to force with you. A pedo who knows what it’s like to be as we are, who has experienced life, seen it, done it ish etc etc.
As holocaust21 has pointed out below, Daniel was right, as he often is, with regards to the funding of people like StopItNow and the PPD. It is, as Tom alluded to before with Virped, a type of covert ‘Psyops’ exploration, for want of a better phrase or description, into our community. Of course, we don’t want anyone to go around raping or molesting children, in the true sense of the word, let alone paedophiles, but without people to talk to who are genuinely open to every dialogue without prejudice and without the spectre of mandatory reporting laws peering over their shoulder, it is arguably a pointless exercise. Ok, we have this in Germany with the PPD, but the great irony of this is what they offer is arguably the most oppressive therapy available.
I had a similar discussion earlier this year with someone. Perhaps due to my lack of eloquence in trying to describe the type of therapy I thought would be great for pedos, particularly younglings who are going through the discovery stage, I was met with a ‘Pedo’s don’t need therapy’ type of rebuff. I think they certainly can do, but it is the type of environment whereby they are helped to realise it is society’s perception of the child, and the child lover, that are to blame for the hysteria and current climate of pedo fear. We are not the problem, or a problem.
Pedo’s need to be able to reach and speak to others in person on issues to do with sexual contact with children, and pornography, obviously as these circumstances can entail lengthy prison sentences and considerable problems in life as a result of things taking a negative turn. If a pedo is in a relationship with a child, they can often feel out of their depth and need help and advice. The same for a person who is addicted to, and binging on, child pornography.

ethane72

I’m glad you think that helping pedophiles lead decent lives is a good thing no matter the ideology behind it.
“there is a risk that the emancipation discourse could be toned down too much in order to keep mainstream professionals on board. Once that happens the available therapy will once again be merely oppressive, and no different from typical court-ordered treatment regimes.”
There is a huge space in the middle. In contrast to the oppressive treatments, Virtuous Pedophiles believes that there is no shame in an attraction that you did not choose and cannot change. We believe that in general engaging in sexual fantasies is just fine. So is humor and the general making of lemonade from lemons. We believe that pedophiles must most definitely avoid sexual contact with minors — but so do pro-liberation people, given the world we live in which shows no hint of changing in our lifetimes. So — where’s the oppression here?
Your fear seems to come from a viewpoint where the liberation discourse is everything, and pedophiles leading decent lives is the smallest footnote. To an average pedophile trying to make a good life, whether adult-child sex might be good in a different society is totally irrelevant, much as the difference between different Protestant denominations that theologians are passionate about doesn’t affect the average parishioner. A pedophile is deeply hated today and has much motivation to stay closeted. Sexual activity with even willing minors runs a risk of a serious criminal sentence, and runs the risk of the minor being traumatized by the system if discovered, or said minor having to keep a secret to prevent discovery. We all agree on that, don’t we? If VP thinks there are other likely sources of harm in addition, how much does that change the picture? Not at all, for an average pedophile trying to lead a decent life.
Activism seems like it is totally different. Suppose you think that children should have the right to do sexual things with adults. Some who think honesty and authenticity are important above all else go the public square and make their voices heard. Does this make them happier than someone who thinks it’s more prudent to keep silent? Or someone who actually thinks that children getting that right would lead to far more abuse than positive relationships. I see no evidence for it.
The common belief here on HereticTOC seems to be that whether adult-child sex is fundamentally OK makes a huge difference in how a person sees himself. If you think the risk is too high, then you are doomed to misery and self-hatred. If you think with proper safeguards it could be OK, then you are on the path to feeling good about yourself. It seems bizarre.
I recognize that underage relationships can work out OK (especially with gay teen boys), I certainly recognize that intentions can be good. But as a matter of policy I think it’s a bad idea, but it doesn’t make me hate myself in the least. Of course it’s complicated. Fifteen-year-old boys are different from three-year-old girls. But let’s suppose that the pro-legalization conclave decided that 10-year-old girls were maybe old enough for sex but 9-year-old girls never were. Would you suggest that someone with an AoA of 10 should feel good about himself and one with an AoA of 9 must hate himself? It’s madness. If I’m an ordinary guy and adult Sally is the only woman I can ever love, my happiness may rise or fall on whether Sally loves me back or not. But surely my self-concept shouldn’t. If she doesn’t love me, I’m unlucky but I’m not deserving of self-hatred.

Nada

I’ve seen VP viciosuly attack other pedophiles, pedophile forums and pedophilia in general. Refugees from their forum even speak of purity inspired bullying.
From what little I know of Frans and JON so far, this is at least a significant difference in ideology!
How does VP’s ideology and the actions, such as above, derived from it, help the vast majority on pedophiles, including exclusives (26% of Cash’s sample, see main post link) on the receiving end of it? Is the “decent life” the domain of the few, those adult-attracted, anti-pedophile and rich enough to not be much impacted by the oppression they favor?

ethane72

“I’ve seen VP viciosuly attack other pedophiles, pedophile forums and pedophilia in general.”
VP members have a variety of opinions on that subject. We don’t enforce conformity in that direction. But Nick and I are the only ones who speak for VP officially, and accusations against us in that regard have come from a position of snowflake-like sensitivity, as I recall.
“Refugees from their forum even speak of purity inspired bullying”
The only report of that that I dimly recall was by someone who could provide no documentation and seemed to have serious issues understanding nuance in human communications.
“How does VP’s ideology and the actions, such as above, derived from it, help the vast majority on pedophiles, including exclusives … on the receiving end of it? Is the “decent life” the domain of the few, those adult-attracted, anti-pedophile and rich enough to not be much impacted by the oppression they favor?”
Adult attraction has nothing to do with it, and “vast majority”, “anti-pedophile” and “rich” sound like they come from some unspoken ideology and assumptions. Heaven knows pro-legalization people sometimes viciously trash VP and any pedophile holding the anti-legalization position.
One of the VP rules is that we don’t discuss our views on legalization on the board itself. Following that rule, a pro-legalization person will get the same support as anyone else. Yes, there is an anti-legalization ethos there, and if there weren’t, a significant percentage of our membership wouldn’t belong. You can imagine a group offering very similar support that had a pro-legalization ethos that would serve a parallel function.

Nada

Start by reading Cash’s paper, the prevalence of pedophilia here and then return to my previous reply.
The vast majority of the world’s pedophiles are not members of VP!
Adult-attracted anti-pedophiles are hardly impacted by the status quo at all, while exclusive pedophiles certainly are!
As for being rich, it gives vastly more options, including that of being virtually above the law.
Is the probability of a “decent live” for an exclusive pedophile strictly increased when he’s not only demonized by society, but also VP?
Given the consequences of false accusations, is it “snowflake-like sensitivity” of pedophiles to object to accusations of childmolestation?
As for the bullying, search BC, GC and VoA. There are multiple such posts, from gentle posters.

Meme

“If VP thinks there are other likely sources of harm in addition, how much does that change the picture? Not at all, for an average pedophile trying to lead a decent life.”
Well, Brian Cash’s study seems to suggest otherwise. If I understand it correctly, his research shows that on average pedophiles who believe age of consent laws are unjust have higher self-esteem. Sure, this correlation doesn’t have to imply causation but I haven’t heard of anyone yet to give a different explanation for these results other than that a pedophile’s view of intergenerational intimacy directly influences their self-esteem.
“given the world we live in which shows no hint of changing in our lifetimes.”
Hasn’t it always been rapidly changing? Much faster than we’d like even. Not too long ago the age of consent in the Netherlands was 12. In Argentinia it’s currently 13. The US may be a place where things change more slowly but the US isn’t the world.
“To an average pedophile trying to make a good life, whether adult-child sex might be good in a different society is totally irrelevant”
Well, if we assume that age of consent laws are a form of discrimination then it actually isn’t irrelevant. Just like it was quite important for slaves in the 19th century to know that slavery is injust. As soon as you are aware that something is injust, then “at least” within in your own mind you can imagine a world where it doesn’t exist. And I’d argue that alone is wonderful and can be a source of hope and happiness.
“Some who think honesty and authenticity are important above all else go the public square and make their voices heard. Does this make them happier than someone who thinks it’s more prudent to keep silent?[…] I see no evidence for it.”
I think the comparison you make isn’t helpful. Some people who keep silent would be happier if they spoke out and some people who speak out would be happier if they’d be a bit more cautious. So the question we should ask isn’t “Are activists happier than others?” but rather what we personally would like to do. If you e.g. don’t like activism, then that’s fine. But many activists are activists because it makes them happy.
“But let’s suppose that the pro-legalization conclave decided that 10-year-old girls were maybe old enough for sex but 9-year-old girls never were. Would you suggest that someone with an AoA of 10 should feel good about himself and one with an AoA of 9 must hate himself?”
Many pedophiles want to abolish age of consent laws completely, not just lower them. I agree with you that merely lowering age of consent laws would be hypocritical. Even (male) fetuses masturbate so the idea of being “too young” for sexual pleasure seems odd to me. No one should feel bad for their attractions.
“If she doesn’t love me, I’m unlucky but I’m not deserving of self-hatred.”
I think it’s a pity when some pedophiles say people from Virped would hate themselves. Only you can know how you feel about yourself. However, what I think these pedophiles are trying to say is that thinking of age of consent laws as being just and fair is a sign of to some extent having internalized prejudices. Internalized prejudices which often can lead a person into depression or self-hatred.
To address your analogy: If a heterosexual male teleiophile isn’t loved back by a particular woman this won’t cause him to hate himself. But if he thinks that all women he’ll ever meet won’t fall in love with him then that’s probably a sign of him having low self-esteem.
Likewise, if a pedophile thinks no child in the whole world would ever fall in love with them then I think the pedophile likely has low self-esteem.

T. Rivas

Good points! Also, if pedophile relationships (even platonic ones) are intrinsically (or inevitably) harmful to minors, this actually implies there must be something really wrong with you psychologically, as a result of genetic defects or developmental problems, or a combination of these. How else could you desire something that goes against the healthy, natural development of minors as it is meant to be, to such an outrageous extent? You must be handicapped and/or deeply damaged and you need therapy or at least psychoeducation about your problems. (In fact, I once read that in Dutch circles there used to be someone who sincerely believed that all intelligent pedophiles, including himself, were simply suffering from the Asperger’s syndrome. This would explain both their supposedly awkward, inappropriate feelings and the foolish, unrealistic projects of activists who wanted to change society.) In a way, the world is right to call them “monsters”. But anyway, this is about the logical consequences of VirPed or indeed mainstream ideology, and (hopefully) not about Frans and the current policy within JON/JORis, which is supposed to be the main topic of this thread.

ethane72

“Well, Brian Cash’s study seems to suggest otherwise. If I understand it correctly, his research shows that on average pedophiles who believe age of consent laws are unjust have higher self-esteem.”
I’d be interested in a link to that study. Even if true, it also might well be the case that such pedophiles are more likely to engage in sexual relationships with children and cause them (at least) iatrogenic harm. Self-esteem can have unpleasant correlates. Men who think most women would love to have sex with them quite probably have higher self-esteem and also harass women at a much higher rate.
“I think it’s a pity when some pedophiles say people from Virped would hate themselves. Only you can know how you feel about yourself.”
I’m glad to hear recognition of this fact. I will also freely admit that many VP members do hate themselves, apparently because they accept society’s idea that their attractions are evil even if they never act upon them. But the core VP members don’t think that and gently encourage them to question that self-hatred.
“Well, if we assume that age of consent laws are a form of discrimination then it actually isn’t irrelevant.”
If you recognize, as I do, that there can be positive outcomes, that intentions can be good, that children can genuinely feel attracted to adults… then those complications naturally serve to separate self-esteem from one’s view on the best social policies. Pro-legalization pedophiles also tend to gloss over complexities relating to consent that is only apparent and not real, lust-driven misperceptions, and those adults who do not mean well.

T. Rivas

Even VirPeds like yourself, Ethan, who admit that there are voluntary pedophile relationships that do not necessarily harm minors, seem to think that the interests of pedophiles (and the minors who feel attracted to them) are not important enough to legalize such morally responsible (platonic and erotic) relationships and explore how to ensure prevention of abuse in such a more liberal context. This is not exactly a positive message to the people considered, I’d say. Am I overlooking something?

T. Rivas

considered = concerned.

Meme

“I’d be interested in a link to that study.”
A link? I’m surprised you haven’t read it. Well, it’s linked in this website’s essay (source (a)) and if you’re interested in a pdf version just google its name.
“Self-esteem can have unpleasant correlates.”
Sure, the author therefore suggests that therpists should respect their client’s views on age of consent laws while pointing out the potential harm that can be caused by current society.
“Men who think most women would love to have sex with them quite probably have higher self-esteem and also harass women at a much higher rate.”
I’d argue this comparison is flawed. If a person thinks that most people would find them attractive then is this really an indicator for a high self-esteem? No matter how attractive someone might be, it’s an unrealistic view and I don’t think that this is caused by high self-esteem but rather by an insecurity that causes the person to have a distorted view that everybody would find them attractive.
I assume the highest self-esteem is found in people who have a realistic view, i.e. that some people find them attractive. If this assumption is correct, then the conclusion would be that pedophiles who believe intergenerational intimacy is not inherently harmful (but don’t believe all children would be attracted to them) have a more realistic view than pedophiles who think otherwise, since they have a higher self-esteem.
“If you recognize, as I do, that there can be positive outcomes, that intentions can be good, that children can genuinely feel attracted to adults… then those complications naturally serve to separate self-esteem from one’s view on the best social policies.”
Not necessarily. Only you can know how your self-esteem is. From the point of view that age of consent laws are discriminatory, however, a pedophile who believes they are (more or less) fair has to some extend internalized prejudices in this regard. Every person has in some area or another internalized prejudices about one or more of their social identities so that’s nothing terrible. Nevertheless, these internalized prejudices can often cause problems such as low self-esteem. So under this premise, your admission of some people being perhaps unjustly targeted by age of consent laws could mean that because you are unable to overcome internalized stigma completely you stick to a narrative in which you make room for exceptions that don’t threaten the general rule of age of consent laws being fair. Of course, there’re also multiple ways in which one could do this “analysis” from the point of view that age of consent laws are fair, with those pedophiles who believe otherwise clinging to their beliefs and trying to somehow fit anything that contradicts them in their narrative without questioning if the narrative itself is correct.
“Pro-legalization pedophiles also tend to gloss over complexities relating to consent that is only apparent and not real, lust-driven misperceptions, and those adults who do not mean well.”
Well, so do often anti-legalization pedophiles and anyone else. And not just in regard to intergenerational intimacy. We unfortunately still live in a rape culture after all. But just because some gay/straight/pedophilic people don’t understand consent we shouldn’t prohibit gay/straight/intergenerational sex. There have been many feminists as well as people in the queer movement criticizing age of consent laws. From Michel Focault and Simone de Beaviour to Judith Levine and Gayle Rubin, to name a few.
But one doesn’t have to have studied law or queerfeminist theories to know age of consent laws are harmful, in my humble view: A commonly accepted principle in modern democracies is “in dubio pro reo” i.e. if there is any doubt, then the accused won’t be prosecuted. Now, let’s say that instead of age of consent laws we use the principle “in dubio contra reo” i.e. if there is any doubt if the younger partner isn’t happy, then we prosecute the accused. This would be injust according to the principles of modern democracies and yet it would be fairer then age of consent laws. Because then judges could at least in the most obvious cases, where the child wrote the older partner love letter after love letter, decide that there is no crime and instead of throwing the couple apart which could traumatize the child just let them be together.
Again, “in dubio contra reo” would still be injust but it would still be better than current age of consent laws which never(!) allow the judge to do anything but prosecute.

ethane72

Regarding the result from the Cash study, it is statistically significant, but I will quote, ” The correlation is weak to moderate… r(148) = .24.” The amount of variability explained by a correlation is the square of the coefficient, in this case .0576. Something under 6% of variation in self-esteem is associated with difference in attitudes on acceptance of adult-child sex. That supports the idea that this is a very tentative relationship. It is one of many factors affecting self-esteem, which in turn is one of many factors in an average pedophile living a good life. Unless you started with the preconception that this is very important, there would be no reason to single it out.
“But one doesn’t have to have studied law or queerfeminist theories to know age of consent laws are harmful, in my humble view”
My basic conviction is that it is always wrong for an adult to start a sexual relationship with a minor. That is a moral judgment. How society should deal legally with cases where an adult has violated this rule is a separate question. I tentatively think that if a minor cannot be convinced that they have been wronged, there should be no prosecution.
“current age of consent laws which never(!) allow the judge to do anything but prosecute.”
Prosecutors, not judges, decide what cases to prosecute. I’m not aware of anything that compels a prosecutor to pursue a case; among other things, they need wide discretion based on whether they think the case can be won.

ethane72

It’s not an ideal wording, I agree. No, I’m not in favor of torturing minors to convince them to testify against their adult partners. But I do allow for a minor to say everything was fine for a month or two and then change their mind, perhaps as they realize their partner misled them. Or on the other hand they might think they were wronged but choose to forgive. Mine is am impulse of mercy, perhaps without wide applicability. I continue to think adult-minor sex is wrong because of the potential for harm.

ethane72

“A link? I’m surprised you haven’t read it.”
Here we see my memory limitations at work, especially my poor memory for names. Yes, I’m familiar with the Cash study, though lots of studies have used VP members by now. As it turns out, my feedback on an initial draft led him to change the questions he asked, and the results were discussed at considerable length in the VP support board when they first came out, where we criticized the significance of that finding. Amusingly, when that discussion of the results started in December of 2016 I did not immediately remember having worked with him previously on the questions.

Nada

There have been many feminists as well as people in the queer movement criticizing age of consent laws.
Indeed, Josephine Butler and her ilk springs to mind, as do later followers denying marriage (for girls), free speech (including CP), while howling about consent!
Consider the rare dissenter, what good is their often slight criticism of the party line? To the 6-year-old girl, in love with a young pedophile, or for said pedophiles growing up, what difference does Levine’s special pleading for the few (some teens, Dunham) do?
As for homosexuals – read up on their treatment of pedophiles, in particular girl loving men, and their groups under ideal conditions (for the homosexuals), such as Denmark and Sweden in the 1980s.
Regarding laws, I can’t help but note what you consider “better” is virtually identical, at least in special cases, to what Ethan proposed on his own blog.

stephen6000

It would indeed be absurd to suppose that pursuing an ’emancipation discourse’ is necessary for the mental health of all minor-attracted people. Different people have different needs. Some people are struck by the injustice of the status quo and, while perhaps acknowledging that radical change is likely to take a long time, may want to work towards making it more probable in the log run. Perhaps you think the goal is misguided but it isn’t obvious that in every case the most helpful approach, from the point of view of psychological well-being, would be to try to talk them out of it. After all, they might not accept your arguments! Ideas about how to stay safe as an activist, for example, could be of more help.
What is needed is an inclusive approach that is tolerant of divergent perspectives. The ‘narrative method’, as described by Frans, seems to allow this, for it is non-judgemental – participants would not be criticised for expressing either a pro-contact or an anti-contact ideology.
Tom and other contributors here have also raised the question of the extent to which those pursuing the JORis approach can fruitfully work with more established professionals, whose ideological stance some of us might find unacceptable. One red line, it seems to me, is the necessity of respecting a person’s individual opinions even when they diverge radically from those of society generally.

peterhoo

Nick, I certainly don’t intend any disrespect towards you or the Virped group, however the work done by Frans and the work done by your group I do see as different. I am myself a qualified family therapist, and I feel competent to offer support to others which I do informally. (My blog I see as a voice.)
There are a variety of individuals who I perceive, and I believe my view is sound, who would be very hostile to me should I ever attempt to act or construct a professional relationship with others when dealing with the issue of minor attraction. Put simply, I feel somewhat useless inside my own society and culture, but I’m in no real position to change that. I believe for many of us we simply do what we can, inside real limits and constraints of the societies and cultures inside which we live.
Living with this is what I see as my challenge.

peterhoo

I have followed the comments put up on Fran’s work and ideas, and like all those who wrote in this blog so far, there is a positive regard for the work being done. Forgive my tone of puzzlement in what I offer next.
In the work Frans gives an account of, and in Nick’s comment, I see a connection to my experience. I am a qualified clinition of Family Therapy, and I have endevoured to be as honest as I can in our current social climate to highlight the difficulty of being on the side of a discourse that is predominantly punitive and ideologically driven. So why am I puzzled? In the dialogue with Frans, the listing of points made by those who come to the blog, I find my post is unreferenced and no comment/s offered.
My comment positions me poorly but I share with the group honestly, this position of ‘no comment’ and non-inclusion I find unsettling. I invite the group to reflect on why I make this comment, and of course, you can guide me to a better informed space if my puzzlement is also a misreading of things. The country I am in, with its society and cultures, is not an easy space to navigate, I can acknowledge this openly.
I remain engaged.

Ed Chambers

I think this is a very important development. As already stated here by others in their experience, it’s something that I could’ve used when I was both in my mid teens and my mid twenties. If in the former, it would’ve saved me many lonely, troubled years trying to figure out why the fuck I was so different.
I would like to know more about NVSH, as my only experience with them has been a perusal of their website (which is pretty good I think), and a sent email to which there was no response.
It’s perhaps too late in the day for me, but good to see, particularly for the younglings. As Tom and Franz alluded to the need for a bridgehead to authority, my fear would be that it would be similar in concept to Virped, although I can’t imagine Tom ever endorsing such a thing. I am all for therapy that helps to develop self acceptance and healthy, balanced individuals within the paedophile community, but there is also a need to point out shortcomings in both the law and society’s perception of paedophiles and IGRs. It’d be nice to think that there would also be the opportunity in the groups for individuals to openly talk about positive IGRs, the pitfalls thereof, and to discuss situations they may be in with children where a sympathetic ear and some good advice would be very handy, specifically without the threat of jail or castration.
In contrast to the dumb fucks who run StopItNow, StopSO, PPD, ASAP et al, it sounds promising, not least because I’m aware of how important a website IPCE is. I would be willing to join, contribute financially to the running of the organisation, but for sure this would only come about through talking with Mr Gieles. Would be great to see the equivalent here in the UK, such a great counter to the nuns that run the aforementioned hubs of self deprecation and flagellation……

daniel

Ed Chambers
do u think they are dumb or do u think corruption is involved in all of this?
>In contrast to the dumb fucks who run StopItNow, StopSO, PPD, ASAP et a

Ed Chambers

If they don’t already regard ‘paedophiles’ as a problem, they are forced to follow this way of thinking. Either way it is dumb. Perhaps more social coercion or bullying than corruption, as funding for these organisations is mainly voluntary / charitable (?).

holocaust21

“If they don’t already regard ‘paedophiles’ as a problem, they are forced to follow this way of thinking. Either way it is dumb. Perhaps more social coercion or bullying than corruption, as funding for these organisations is mainly voluntary / charitable (?).”
I think you’ll find a large amount of funding for those organisations comes from government, or other organisations which are funded by government. For example, I did a very quick search on Stop It Now. It turns out they are run by the Lucy Faithful Foundation. Now here’s their 2015 Annual Report that I found: https://www.lucyfaithfull.org.uk/files/Lucy%20Faithfull%20Foundation%20-%20Final%20Financial%20Statements%20-%202015%20(SIGNED).pdf
Take a look, for instance, at section “8.2 Income and expenditure” in the report. You’ll see that they are getting hundreds of thousands in funding from government grants including the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government, the Home Office and, perhaps most sinister of all, the Internet Watch Foundation and CEOP.
Other funding for these organisations that doesn’t directly come from government often comes from funding campaigns where they basically walk around and guilt-trip people into donating money to them. I’ve seen these organisations – particularly the NSPCC – try to get close to corporations and either get donations directly from the company or run some fund raising event there.
So, to conclude, I think Daniel is right that there is corruption involved. People think these charities exist because of some hardworking volunteers trying to do good, but in reality they exist because the government funds them.
Mind, this is some insight for those who want to find a way to shut this whole feminism thing down. If there was a way to cut off the funding then it could seriously damage the propaganda machine. I’m not sure how one could cut it off though, it probably gets funded via some government committee with a bunch of radical feminists on it. To get on that committee, presumably some other radical feminist would have to approve you. Fat chance of that happening! But maybe there is a way I missed.

Liz

My question would be in what regard these groups have changed in comparison to NVSH groups in the 70s/80s. Ok, I guess I know the crux of the answer but maybe there’s a cool story hidden there 😛

Libertine

Interesting discussion on morality
https://iai.tv/video/thinking-good

Explorer

Meanwhile, Thai boys and their coach are successfully rescued from the cave, all of them alive. One person who did died was one of the people who were saving them from being buried underground.
For a short moment, people all across the world, holding mutually incompatible views on countless issues, have moved their attention from their common bitter mutual conflict and to something positive that did united them together – and did it freely, from within, not in totalitarian “from without” style.
Yet this short moment of sincere love will pass away as quickly as all such previous moments did, and the reign of hostility will be back.
And – why do such moments of shared compassion require something ugly, such as a group of boys and their coach entombed and suffering under the rocks, to happen?

daniel

im glad the children are safe,sure the coach will be missed.
>Meanwhile, Thai boys and their coach are successfully rescued from the cave, all of them alive. One person who did died was one of the people who were saving them from being buried underground.

daniel

my mistake the person saving them he was a good guy

Libertine

Just been watching 24 hours in Police custody. They could take a leaf out of Dr Frans Gieles’s book; They were more concerned about this guys information not being released rather than his safety, After he was assaulted (he’s in his seventies). They had another guy over “indecent images” on his phone. He should’ve disputed the age of this teen rather then saying he is around fifteen. Could’ve said around eighteen, or even sixteen, exposing the contradiction with the AOC and UN definition of childhood. Another time he admitted remembering a conversation while on drugs; better not to remember and blame the drugs. But clap these brave police officers in for stomaching all these horrible images and ruining a young mans life; Two women, bet they were loving it. One thing it did though, is show the human face to what is described as ‘predators’. they did say, he seems like such a nice guy — I ask myself, do I seem like a ‘nice guy’, fucking hope not haha!

daniel

Libertine
we all know any 1 can be a “preditor” anyway re do gooders wat about father Shay Cullen from the PREDA Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PREDA_Foundation is he a preditor or genuine who knows?
>described as ‘predators’

Libertine

Looks like just another NGO often saving kids and women who do not wish to be ‘save’. promoting western peso-hysteria across the globe.

Yure

Frans is so soft-hearted, I’m sure the group works. I read about it before. It seems to be something I would like to attend, even though I’m facing no problems regarding self-acceptance or risk of offending. But alas, I’m not in the Netherlands.

T. Rivas

Hi there!
Here are two questions that seem relevant to me:
(1) What is Frans’s position on (morally responsible) activism aiming at emancipation, not only of people with these feelings but also of voluntary, responsible (platonic and erotic) relationships? Is there still room within JON for the message of people who still believe in this long-term goal and reject the VirPed-discourse (even if they accept that VirPeds are right about relationships in the present situation)?
Does Frans accept that working on such a long-term relational emancipation may be a valid and psychologically healthy way of dealing with the present situation?
(2) Does Frans believe that “pedophile” feelings are by definition the result of developmental or psychological problems? In other words, are such feelings a clear sign that something went wrong, in his view, comparable to what mainstream psychiatry proclaims about such feelings?.Or is he really open to other possibilities, such as that it is just one of many as neutral orientations (or more accurately: a group of neutral orientations, comprising BL, GL, etc.)?
T. Rivas

T. Rivas

A possible problem I see with that, Tom. is that being a “bridgehead to the authorities” only really works when you don’t need to lose yourself, i.e. your ideas and ideals. Otherwise you end up embracing just a “softer” version of the dominant discourse and conforming to its main tenets. So my questions are basically about the extent to which intternalization of the mainstream discourse is required from members of such self-help groups.
It’s the difference between remaining an empathic social worker who accepts any differences of opinion within the group and excludes no one for ideological reasons and switching to the role of a less transparent psychiatric worker who in the end wants everybody to conform.
I’m not saying everyone needs to reject VirPed ideology (some are sincerely convinced that it is the right approach, even without any societal pressure and they have every intellectual right to stick to their convictions), but simply that one needs to avoid alienation in the psychological and interpersonal sense, I believe there needs to be room for explicit dissent within such groups about emancipation (mind you, not about other matters such as real child abuse or prostitution).
I wonder who could benefit from being “gently” coerced into VirPed views or into adopting a basically psychiatrical etiology of the origins of their feelings, just because any other message is practically banned from the self-help group,
I believe that less heterogeneous self-help groups need to be honest and transparent about their underlying standpoints.They owe this clarity to any possible dissidents, . .

sean

this brings tears to my eyes. thankyou Frans!
it would have saved me decades of grief (and a suicide attempt) if i could have had an opportunity to meet other minor attracted people like this when i was younger.
i feel quite relaxed about my orientation now and i’m out to several friends, but they don’t understand my nature and i still struggle with some things that i can’t discuss with them. also i would welcome the opportunity to pass on anything helpful i might have learned in my own journey.
my chief anxiety would be that such a group might be infiltrated by vigilantes and members publicly outed. what strategy exists to protect against this? i assume the coordinator must act as a gatekeeper and assess new members?

peterhoo

This comment needs to be penned before another moment passes. My respect and gratitude to Frans is huge. Clearly I add Tom as deserving the same both in his own right, and because he has aided in putting up this guest piece by Frans. I hope many come to read what is offered here, when good things happen it is great to acknowledge it.

Explorer

Hello again, Peter! Hearing from you is a pleasant surprise indeed, after such a prolonged silence. Maybe, after your voice is again with us your writing – your blogging – will be with us all well?

peterhoo

I think Tom would have legitimate concerns about the length of my comment if I answered that point here. I could use the weather or climate to explain my being quiet, but it is a bit more than that. The warmth of the brief messages from Tom and yourself are both noted and valued.

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