Proudly sticking out my double CHIN!

When Dave Riegel kindly offered to host a link to my CHIN paper recently published in Sexuality & Culture, he was more alert than me to the need for an explanatory summary to go with it – a double CHIN, as it were – or an edited highlights version. As he wrote along with the link:

This paper comprises some 15,000 words and 33 pages. While composed with the academic or professional reader in mind, it can be read profitably by the layperson who puts his mind to the task, and who follows the logic carefully. For those who feel the sheer size is overwhelming, it is suggested that they begin at the “An Alternative Ideal” section.

Good advice! And at Dave’s request I am now taking a couple of steps to provide a reader-friendly introduction to the article. One of the steps, for visitors to Dave’s SafeHaven site, will comprise a short piece to go with the link there. The other step, for heretics here, appears below. It aims to encapsulate the paper’s main themes.
Before starting, I will just note that as I write, less than two months after CHIN’s publication, the paper has been downloaded 2,200 times from the official Springer site, a figure that I feel more than justifies splashing out, as I did, to pay for Open Access, making the paper freely available to all. Heretics here have donated generously in response to my appeal aimed at raising funds to cover the fee but I am still considerably out of pocket. So please consider making a donation if you have not already done so: see Donate button near the end text of the right-hand column or email me (tomocarr66@yahoo.co.uk) to ask for my international bank account number.
So, here we go.
It may help to begin with how CHIN came about. This has roots going back seven or eight years to a meeting in a London pub with psychiatrist Richard Green, whose record of pioneering support for gay and trans rights will be familiar to many here and who has recently published a memoir of his involvement in these issues. At Richard’s instigation we were joined for lunch by Agustin Malón, a Spanish specialist in sex education, whose views seemed agreeably liberal. We got on well, and in the years that followed I read a number of his academic papers with growing enthusiasm.
He was never a committed heretic, but his writing always showed understanding and goodwill. Many years ago, he wrote in the preface to his doctoral thesis:

Those who love children – and who very rarely attack them – undoubtedly lead a complicated existence; especially those who are attracted to prepubertal children, since society is not likely to allow them to live out these experiences in relative liberty and tranquillity. We have a lot to learn – as do they – about how to permit them to live out and express those desires through channels that are more acceptable, and that cause fewer problems for both minors and society.

This clearly indicates empathy but it is hardly a radical position. There is nothing to suggest he ever thought child-adult sex could ever be allowed. So I was agreeably surprised when a paper of his appeared in 2015 in a leading academic journal. The introductory Abstract noted that such relationships might indeed be morally permissible under some circumstances, based on his understanding of general ethical principles. What he was saying, in effect, was that the usual “anti” arguments, such as the idea that children cannot give valid consent, are weak: they do not stand up to close scrutiny.
Excitingly, it looked as though Malón was finally getting on board with true radicalism. But that turned out to be wildly over-optimistic. Seeing only a glass half full, I was overlooking the half empty perspective. His article was planned as the first of two. The first would throw out the weak case against child-adult sex; but the second would bring in some new, much stronger, “anti” ideas to replace them! So we would be left not with a radically libertarian analysis but a beefed up conservative one!
This could have been very deflating, but when the second article appeared, in 2017, I soon began to see it as an opportunity. Malón’s new paper was grounded in virtue ethics. And just as he had seen the weakness of the usual “anti” arguments, it seemed to me his “virtue” approach was also full of holes. All I had to do was point them out. Also, without placing any great store on the virtue concept as a basis for deciding whether any sort of behaviours should or should not be permitted, answering Malón’s case appeared to offer a marvellous platform for talking about active child-adult sex as potentially something that could be seen positively, as part of a virtuous adult’s life.
Malón’s appeal to virtue ethics is part of a revival in recent times of a very old sort of moral philosophy, going back to ancient Greece. The person of good character, in this way of thinking, is one who lives life well in the sense that their behaviour tends to promote their own well being and that of their society, and may even be considered good for human flourishing in general. Virtue ethics these days is often referred to as “neo-Aristotelian” moral philosophy, as Aristotle was one of the key figures in the field among the ancients, following Socrates and Plato, and a good deal of his writing has survived.
It makes sense to ask, as these great philosophers did, what sort of life a good life is, and what makes for good character. One problem with this, though, is that you tend to get very different answers depending on when and where the question is posed. Different cultures have widely divergent views. Life could be harsh in ancient times and that was reflected in what was seen as morally acceptable. Aristotle, for instance, defended slavery.
Perhaps that is why MalĂłn doesn’t mention him! His approach may be neo-Aristotelian but the figure he draws on for inspiration is a leading public intellectual of our own times, Sir Roger Scruton, knighted two years ago for “services to philosophy, teaching and public education”. The official citation emphasises his promotion of “freedom and Western values” in Soviet-era Communist Europe, but in Britain he is better known for his love of fox hunting, his distaste for homosexuality and his ferocious hostility towards anything he considers to be perverted or obscene – including, of course, paedophilia. He once argued that gays have no children and consequently no interest in creating a socially stable future, so it was justified to “instil in our children feelings of revulsion” towards homosexuality.
His ideas on sexual morality find their fullest expression in his 1986 book Sexual Desire: A Philosophical Investigation, which is undoubtedly a hugely sophisticated and erudite work, running to over 400 pages. Unfortunately, Malón appears to have been over-impressed by it and uncritically blown away. In my article, as a result, I found that really I had to regard Scruton as my primary opponent. The first part of CHIN is in effect an attempt to demolish Scruton’s thinking, and I hope readers will feel I have succeeded.
After that I found myself gloriously free on the open philosophical road, able to put my foot on the gas, driving the article hard towards my own vision of “An Alternative Ideal”. Dave Riegel is quite right to propose this section as a possible starting point: it avoids the unfortunately necessary negativity of the early sections, allowing the reader to get straight to what I hope will be considered more inspirational material. In fact, with this in mind, you could perfectly well begin and end with this single section.
Those who want to take that advice are free to do so. What I think may be useful in the remainder of this blog is to give a guide to the overall structure and main contents of CHIN.
Abstract and Introduction
The Abstract and the Introduction were written with the academic reader in mind and will perhaps feel rather perplexing and unhelpful to a wider audience. As Dave says, though, a careful, attentive reading should reap rewards.
The Illusion of Sexual Exceptionalism
This section is one to skip unless you are keen on philosophy. It tackles the idea that human sex of any sort is unlike other aspects of morality and needs a different kind of ethics. This view is at the heart of Scruton’s book, which takes a “phenomenological” approach focusing on human “intentionality”, a tricky concept which takes him 15 pages to “explain” in an appendix that leaves the head spinning. Basically, it’s a lot of smoke and mirrors that enables him to claim, unpersuasively, that where sex is concerned the birds and the bees may do it but human sexual desire is on an altogether more elevated plane, such that ethical discussion essentially has to be inward looking:  we must contemplate our feelings for other people without reference to the wider world of nature, or indeed without delving into what science can tell us about our own sexual natures and how best they might be enabled to flourish.
Virtue Ethics and Child-Adult Sexual Relations
Malón’s particular contribution with regard to child-adult sexual relations sets out by identifying three potential lines of argument against paedophilic behaviour made available by the virtue approach. They are considered under these headings: (a) perversion and obscenity; (b) the sexual bond; (c) erotic neutralization and “extended” incest. CHIN responds to each of these three approaches.
Perversion and obscenity
Malón invokes childhood “innocence”, but he does not defend the concept against the charge that it represents a state of ignorance in which children are deliberately kept by adults in order to control them. Instead he seeks to justify the tradition in which a high value has been placed on virginity, a valuation challenged by feminists as being at the heart of patriarchal control of female sexuality.
It has also been put under scrutiny from an evolutionary perspective, and here I draw on the work of psychologist Darcia Narvaez. She suggests that we have been wrongly “projecting onto the past a scenario like today’s of sexual restriction and competition, assuming sexual competitiveness for virginity, and emphasizing the timing of first sexual behaviour”. Evolutionary psychology, she says, has wrongly assumed “mate competition and male desire to control female reproduction to ensure genetic dominance”.  Among the small-band gatherer-hunters of the past, in contrast, “sexual relations are widespread with experimentation at all ages”. Also, “As with our bonobo cousins, individuals do not wait for the right fertile mate. Sexual relations are more about pleasure than control.”
With this in mind, I raise the possibility that it might be beneficial to practise intimate relationships well before the time when there could be reproductive consequences. I note that childhood and adolescent sexual experiences with adults have been reported in very positive terms in the research literature as relationships characterised by warmth, pleasure, affection and humour.
The sexual bond
Malón argued that the child’s capacity for intimacy and to be emotionally connected to another person would be damaged by a sexual relationship with an adult. He did not even claim there was any evidence for this in the case of consensual encounters. I decided to stick with a single really good counter-example, that of the psychoanalyst and theorist Heinz Kohut: he claimed his sexual relationship at age 10 with an admired tutor was life-saving for him when his parents’ marriage was deteriorating.
Erotic neutralization and “extended” incest
It is difficult to argue in favour of sex with children in a nuclear family setting simply because behind closed doors it is hard to be sure kids have real choices: no one wants to see them become sex slaves of their parents. This has nothing to do with the danger of producing deformed or otherwise genetically damaged offspring in an incestuous union, as young children are physically incapable of becoming fathers or mothers. And, despite his use of the word incest, “blood” relations have nothing to do with what Malón is saying. He talks about so-called extended incest, by which he means any adult-child contacts that show some of the same psychodynamics as family relationships, especially via the quasi-parental authority invested in teachers, sports coaches, scout leaders, etc.
His argument is not against such authority, quite the reverse. Rather, he thinks that having a sexual relationship is likely to undermine legitimate authority. Good parents, after all, teach their children good values and try to set an example through their own good behaviour. An implicit assumption is that unless they are firmly in control, they will not be able to keep their children on the right path. By revealing their own sexual needs, by “surrendering” to passion, they become vulnerable to the child’s power; and in a consensual relationship the child can withhold willingness to meet those needs.
The argument is a strong one, but I argue that it puts excessive emphasis on the value of hierarchy. I give examples of role reversals that can be valuable for children and adults alike, where the younger party is in command.
An Alternative Ideal
Please simply read this section: it is easier going and arguably more important than some of the other parts.
Some Further Misconceptions
Intellectually, this section is a minor mopping up operation after zapping all three of Malón’s main arguments but it contains some interesting evidence you are unlikely to have seen elsewhere: use the search terms “Bemba” and “Nyakyusa” for some fascinating material on pre-pubertal consummation of marriage in African tribes – as researched by intrepid female anthropologists in the mid-20th century.
A prudential argument
This short section deals with the argument that child-adult sex may be harmless or even beneficial at the time but damaging in the long term on account of the social stigma attached to such encounters. Some give this as a reason not to permit them. I cite philosopher Stephen Kershnar’s powerful counter-argument.
Conclusion
The paper concludes with a plea to look at the evidence rather than just assuming that child-adult sex is harmful; it is also pointed out that relevant research has been systematically blocked and censored in recent times.    

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warbling j turpitude

I like that “any positive potential is invariably betrayed” very much. I would probably be ‘giving away’ too much if I expanded on just why I found HFTW so..erm, distasteful (distasty?) I guess, but beyond the depiction of dumb cops and domineering, doctrinaire social workers, to what degree would you say that flick demonstrates any of that aforesaid positive potential? For inspiring the broad mass of its viewers to reflect on their whole notion of large person/small person relations? Please forgive me Tom, but I can’t help chuckling upon seeing you deploy the term “own neuroses” when I had just declared war on the tendency to medicalise/atomize what clearly seems to me the fruit of a..a ‘collective seizure’ – otherwise known as interdiction – that has frozen most folks’ ability or willingness to think things through, on a grand (gross and getting grosser?) scale!

warbling j turpitude

haha no, it’s actually not that at all, I assure you! I started watching it on a lengthy flight and was put off very quickly by how ‘hip-hoppy’ kulchur was substituted seemingly without a thought for a presumably non-existent kiwi culture? Well that’s what came pouring from out of the kid’s mouth, for sure! I then ventured to consult the feeling of others on this offering, and found myself concurring with some d00d from The New Yorker i think it was, who maintained that the whole thing was “facile and cloying”, only a showdown at the end (didn’t get that far) grounding in real emotion what amounted to a whole heap of “plastic sentiment”. So there you have it – bet you didn’t know sentiment could be plastic, now did ya!

warbling j turpitude

hehe…that’s it then I guess Tom – I’m NOT snobbish enough to imagine that all of President Trump’s achievements and goals are *always already* eclipsed by his somewhat grating theatrics, but I AM snobbish enough to fulminate with extreme prejudice when I behold a dude in her majesty’s deranged dominion all gussied up like a kulchurally-microwaved homey, *even as* I know that’s what America DOES for the body politic in everyone, give ’em putative MEANS by which to express their sense of independence etc etc.. …i just didn’t expect THAT to look like THIS (oh god, will I ever be able to make myself clear? Probably not!)
Meanwhile, I should deeply appreciate it if Mr Kennerly could possibly update us if he can on the DoJ catch-a-predator circus? Given my explicit admiration for the President’s foreign policy goals (in a word, a workable world without a million US boots on the ground) I am that much more devastated by his facile capitulation to the anti “trafficking” bill that shut down Backpage, and of course by whatever his participation was in ‘Operation Broken Heart”. All I can ever read about this is one contradictory figure after another, lurching like an epileptic bean-counter from one state’s claims to the next…are there any verifiable details at all to be had here?

Lynda Byron

Extended childhood is not a “lie” but an evolutionary conquest: the more development of the neural system, the longer the child period lasts. That’s why our species is so much work in breeding and childhood is long compared to other mammals.
Children are not small adults, this idea was abandoned at the beginning of the last century, and Piaget detailed the evolutionary stages up to the level of typically adult cognitive development.
No, you cannot have sexual or intimate relationships with a child in any way. This immaturity means that, for example, things like sexual abuse have a very negative impact on development (inappropriate sexuality, PTSD, impaired affection that marks future relationships, etc.) and the consequences reach adulthood.
And so with all the areas.
They are not mini-adults, the development of their neural system has not reached that of an adult.
It’s not all about kids, and it has nothing to do with “hiding information” and other platitudes. Some make almost paedophile arguments


Sugarboy

Well, at least one thing is certain: children who have been involved in consensual sex with adults should be kept away from therapists, otherwise the risk of developing PTSD would be real!

Ed Chambers

Spot on Sugarboy….

Explorer

I see CHIN is already on IPCE, Tom – my congratulations!
https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/childhood-innocence-not-ideal-virtue

daniel

Found an interesting article here just finished reading it
https://www.human-being.nl/Library/vanree_99_4.htm

daniel

Tom
i thought it was the right kind of stuff for me to read it had the right amount of info and it wasn’t too much either.
>Yes, a good article. We read and discussed it many years ago in Ipce.
It is worth mentioning the Four Principles for ethical child-adult sex (if it were legal) that were outlined:
1. Who is in charge?: the child should always be in charge of his or her own sexuality.
2. Initiative: the initiative for sexuality should always come from the child him- or herself.
3. Freedom: the child should be able at any given moment to remove himself or herself from the situation.
4. Openness: the child may not be burdened with a secret.

warbling j turpitude

Would that the wider warbling world could cotton at last to the f**ct that the ‘blitzkrieg bop’ is ultimately the blisskid bap(TISN’t!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gCWOb7V-b0
may the heretical music never stop – yrs in maximal steam heat & ostensivity
L

Libertine

Everybody pray for the safe escape for those Thai boys stuck in that cave. Though, in this current pedo-panic, I’d have thought westerners would be more worried about all those ‘vulnerable’ minors stuck down there with just a few adults!

daniel

Libertine
they have been writings letters from the cave hope they get out.
>Everybody pray for the safe escape for those Thai boys stuck in that cave

Michael Teare-Williams

Me too, Tom! One of my major problems is claustrophobia… I would go mad down in those caves.
M T-W.

Explorer

I’m scared to imagine the level of fury that these words of yours would cause if being said (and heard) outside of the Paedo-Sphere. Intense emotions (and accompanying sensations) of natural compassion towards boys and their coach which all of us here feel (I assume), would get mixed with powerfully conditioned, deeply ingrained denial of the fundamental sensual-sexual-somatic component of ALL adult-child affective bonds (including the ones that are not overtly sexual, such as between the coach and his pupils) and the rage toward anyone who tries to expose the conditioned and artificial nature of this denial to the denying ones. Their interreaction would then produce an emotional overdose, and explosion of mind-melting passions of horrible proportions.
The great problem is that such artificial reactions as the modern Western paedophobia are much deeper that just some kind of intellectual belief or preference: they are rooted in the sexual-affective conditioning and thus extremely resistant to any kind of rational argumentation and persuasion. It is what causes me so much pain: for most people, it simply doesn’t matter what kind of evidence I present; it simply won’t be registered at the level of mental reflexivity, blocked by the storm of distressing emotions – and unpleasant sensations which is interconnected with these emotions. Trying to mentally process the ideas that strongly contradict our ingrained – this is, sensually-affectively anchored – prejudices may oftentimes be not just emotionally disappointing, but literally, somatically painful. So, my above-average skills of the intellectual argumentation and evidential presentation of the case, as well as my above-average knowledge of the relevant scholarly and scientific matters, are not effective, and thus of not much use, in most discussions, where reactions are produced, and decisions are made, on visceral rather than reflexive level.
Sad, it is.

Michael Teare-Williams

Explorer, I think it is obvious from the words I wrote above, that I would ‘go mad’ with the unreasoning fear that claustrophobia causes?
How could anyone read what I wrote in any other way?
Even one of those moral-reactionary-cretins?
On the other hand, as a former helicopter-pilot, I would dare anything to rescue those kids if it involved flying!
M T-W.

Explorer

Michael, I was replying not to you, but to Tom, to his words of hugs and huddles being shared by the boys and the coach trapped in the cave. I should have clarified it in the beginning of my post, starting it with “Tom, …” .
P.S. As for your fear, it is quite different from the emotional reactions of the paedophobes, since you honestly acknowledge it as such. The horror of debate with paedophobic people would not only their wrath as such, but the fact that almost all of them will not accept its non-rational and non-moral character. Rather, they will try to invent any “argument”, no matter how unclear, baseless and incoherent it will be, to “explain” their visceral reaction as someting fully rational and highly moral (well, the few ones are more intellectually inclined than the most and will try to attack and your position and not only you as person; most will just try to discredit and silence you, nothing more).

Michael Teare-Williams

Explorer, you are quite right and I see your point. I also think it’s brave of you to try and analyse the motivations of those very basic people about whom we speak.
A long while ago I identified three sources for their problems. To wit: hatred, rage & fear. These influences are what inspires them and in their lack of imagination, they need nothing else?
M T-W.

warbling j turpitude

For what it’s worth, Explorer, I’d like to express my admiration here for the lengths you’ve gone to there to describe what it feels like to attempt any conversion of the truly irrational in someone to the rational, so to speak, but feel I must temper your focus on the thing as an individual, ‘phobic’ production and remind how much of it is sheerly mimetic? That is to say, the person believes what they do largely because they have long ago sensed that everybody else does? We all know the hopelessness of trying to argue a person out of what they were never *argued into* in the first place, and you can see this in so many topical areas, not only this one – try disabusing somebody of their fond belief that the theory of biological evolution explains pretty much everything, sometime!
Btw I presume you meant to write ‘reflective’ rather than ‘reflexive’ at the end there?
It’s never going to be easy to trace this thing all the way from its roots in collectively-formed, mimetically-reinforced assumptions to their present, visceral manifestations in a particular individual, now is it? As I was reminded today, what drove Karl Marx above all was THE most political of ’emotions’, ie hatred, and it can never really enlighten us by attempting to isolate that in a tube labelled ‘affective disorders’, can it? Okay, you say this is how it’s all “anchored”, but isn’t it far more important trying to understand just how the damn thing was driven so very deep in the first place?

Libertine

Dangerous stuff; I’ve heard horror stories about people cave-diving and loosing their line and getting disoriented. That and BASE jumping are the most dangerous sports, And yet I complain about judo putting people out of action.
Just been watching a drama on itv2, ‘Unforgotten’, About historical ‘abuse’, I thought to myself; maybe I shouldn’t bother with stuff like this, But it was a good Drama; As usual, As long as it’s a ‘pedo’ getting bumped off, They let the guilty go free, Since the perpetrators are no risk to the public. If you go down that road the prisons would soon get rather lonely.

To Catch a Idiot

Please don’t watch The Simpsons is a disgusting series:
In one episode the monster Chris Hansen appears as a guest making a parody of his criminal and disgusting program.
Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan-a_Lisa
It’s disgusting, and the creator of the Simpsons is called tolerant! He devotes episodes to apologizing for homosexuality but makes fun of dozens of men who are trapped and publicly embarrassed for seeking out consensual relationships with underage teenage girls.
Boycott this TV series and its producers and all their future projects!

Leansleeves

I wouldn’t stop watching a show just because the director or author of the show has some confusing and pathetic humor, that’s just pure nonsense. Even though I hate the guts of the infamous asshole that makes every anti’s knickers wet, seeing him in a satire scene won’t stop my interest in any show especially the Simpsons, a funny show I watched since I was sixteen.

warbling j turpitude

Well said chap, and you made me reflect on just how many screen?/teleplays etc virtually RUN on th?e ?savagely ironic humour that spills/follows from? ‘the Age of Shazam’ (“consent”), or simply burgeon? merrily away? from start to finish at the ?clear ?expense of paedophiles. In the latter regard I’m thinking of something like that wretched kiwi film “Hunt for the Wilderpeople’, which Americans just lapped up in shovelfuls, but more broadly I think even movies which capitulate most dreadfully to the default narrative often feature terrific dialogue whose whole fulcrum is the tension and? ?volatility that only modern hypocrisy can provide. Even? ?something like ‘The Woodsman’, up until the point it collapsed into absurdity with The Lollipop & the Schoolyard (sounds like a fairy tale right there ) scene, had a screenplay fair bristling with erotic tension. Better was ‘Little Children’?,? the culmination of which is ?a? scene where an entire swimming-pool of kids is vacated in a trice at the sound of a single panicked word, leaving one? begoggled & beflippered? ‘paedo’ at the absolute center of the pool? treading water?, floundering ?in? wonder and dismay.? ?It’s as if writers are aware that all this means the most subliminally powerful of dramas at all times, but can never dare to ?kick? at any point into the explicitly political as such. Once again, writing this brings the work of the uniquely learned and brilliant?ly witty? J R Kincaid to mind, whose above all CULTURAL – and as Generative Anthro-man i would say SCEN(E)IC analyses – I would re-urge everyone here to visit if they have not done so before, for the?se? serve as a ?real ?check on the tendency for our talk to? ?degenerate into? ?that of ‘phobias’ and ?into ?neurobabble in general,? ?which it seems ?(?ho ho ho?)? is fast becoming my (?wait for it?) “hobbyhorse’? ?hereabouts!
What can I say then but ‘GIDDYAP?!’?

Ed Chambers

I’ve been looking into David Hamilton, Sally Mann, Jock Sturges. I also found reference to a transgender person who is paedophillic, goes by the name of Christin-Susan Back and collaberated on a book called Das dritte Geschlecht: Transsexuelle, Transvestiten und Androgyne.
I hadn’t realised that David Hamilton had committed suicide, supposedly in light of allegations brought against him by some of the models he had worked with. His ‘Best of’ book, ‘David Hamilton’ fetches ÂŁ750 and upwards on Amazon. Be nice to think I could invest in such a rarity at some point in the future.
I link the following not so much for the article itself, as it is laden with those people carefully covering their footsteps should they be seen to be open minded on the issue of child nudity, more for one or two of the comments that do indeed point to the need for an open discussion on the issues :
https://fstoppers.com/originals/suicide-david-hamilton-and-debate-over-child-nudity-portraiture-155228
Anyway, sad to see the old man go like that….

Christian

The allegations of Flavie Flament against David Hamilton were dealt with in my comment on a Pigtails in Paint article: https://pigtailsinpaint.org/2017/03/maiden-voyages-march-2017/comment-page-1/#comment-67911
In brief: her book is contradicted by her mother and her brother, and the scholar Brigitte Axelrad considers her to be a case of “recovered memory”, a phenomenon that caused multiple damages in the US throughout the 90’s.

Ed Chambers

Thanks for this Christian, whilst there is no arguing genuine abuse takes place in the world, it’s an all too familiar story of people jumping on the bandwagon and making things up to try to destroy the life of someone who is simply interested in anything to do with childhood sexuality. There will come a point in time when society will realise the harm that has been done as a result of allowing, encouraging this kind of behaviour to take place.
Pigtails in Paint is a nice site too….

daniel

Ed Chambers
the reason ppl make things up or exaggerate a situation is cos its a convenient excuse to be vicious.
>whilst there is no arguing genuine abuse takes place in the world, it’s an all too familiar story of people jumping on the bandwagon and making things up to try to destroy the life of someone who is simply interested in anything to do with childhood sexuality.

Explorer

I just found a quote that I can use as my personal signature when I participate in discussions on forums:
“Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper
when he is called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
—Oscar Wilde”
These few words summarise quite neatly what I learned about the perils of communications in my countless debates of many controversial topic.
P.S. If I remember correctly, Oscar Wilde has experienced child-love (boy-love, as I recall), not just teleiophilic homosexuality, in his life. Am I right?

Explorer

When, in the modern times it would qualify as “child-love”… yet was a 15-year old adolescent boy (or young man?) considered to be a “child” in the Wilde’s times?

Michael Teare-Williams

Yes Tom, the assumption of adulthood had nothing to do with the way a person whom we would now call a child, either looked, or was treated.
At that time, you still had the remnants of the mediaeval idea of, if he or she can walk, then she or he can work, yet many a fifteen year old of then was not yet properly into puberty.
M T-W.

SickofwomenandlgtbNAZIS!

Netflix Under Fire for Suspected Child Pornography Scenes
https://pjmedia.com/trending/netflixs-desire-streams-disturbing-scenes-of-child-pornography/
Megan Fox has reported the film to the police. I repeat:. MEGAN FOX. You can blacklist that bisexual (LGTBers scum again!) old hag.

Explorer

Tom, remember Richard Garner’s “Beyond Morality” book that I have sent to you some time ago? Did you read it, or at least a part of it? If you did, what are your thoughts about Garner’s ideas and positions as expressed in this book?

Explorer

“…my priority right now is more in the area of evolutionary psychology…”
Can we expect another peer-reviewed academic paper one day, dealing with the evolutionary psychology rather than moral philosophy? Or at least some blog posts explaining your positions on this topic?

Explorer

One more question, Tom, if you won’t object: how are your contacts with Steven Pinker and David Benatar? Anything to share with us?

Explorer

Yes, I meant Peter Singer – sorry!

daniel

Don’t know if any1 has seen Tom Grauer where he shows support for Nathan Larson.
Thoughts any1?

sean

Hi Tom,
I have some expertise in evolutionary psychology. I also have some ideas on the adaptive origins, nature and function of minor attraction. Feel free to mail me.
Sean

warbling j turpitude

The default world pretty much accepts by now, doesn’t it, that the fiercest “homophobia” has often been but the bizarre manifestation of repressed homosexuality? And so I’m wondering how long it will take before “paedophobia” enjoys similar sorts of diagnoses? High profile reports like this DO make one wonder… https://www.redstate.com/kiradavis/2018/06/27/head-charity-prevent-child-abuse-arrested-soliciting-child-pornography-sex-minors/

Oy vey

You are good Goyim
. Tom O’Carroll knows!
“A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated” – Talmud, Aboda Sarah 37a

daniel

Tom
as a sexual minority would you and some of your friends be interested in joining any kind of sexual liberation events with me? ,

daniel

Tom
homosexual, transgender ect diversity events

Ed Chambers

> Thoughts on this, anyone?
I am feeling quite fit for a 43 year old and can run 5k at a push. I’m not afraid of defending myself although I would prefer not to have to do so. Many times in my life I’ve been suicidal because of my sexuality and related issues, but by the grace of God this has passed.

daniel

Ed Chambers
>suicidal thoughts
good to c u have broken that barrier

daniel

I met this woman the other day and it was a good event.
https://www.facebook.com/agonyautie/videos/1032885473534049/

Ed Chambers

Thanks for this Daniel.
> It shows the hugely important positive contribution made to science and other intellectual activities played by people who are often seen only as a problem: people with autism
Strike ‘autism’ and replace with ‘paedophilia’ and that would make another highly significant sentance.

daniel

Tom
>The only thing I found puzzling was the intrusion of a clip featuring Donald Trump. What was that meant to achieve?
I think she posted the donald trump vid cos of the things he was saying, she might have got the impression that trump was implying something negative when he said that autistics are an epidemic.
>This strikes me as relevant to HTOC; I’ll leave you to work out why.
When I was at the event sexuality was mentioned and she seems to be open to discussion on the topic. I dont know how she would react to paedophillia and if ed chambers wanted to contact her then she seems to travel around the uk holding lots of other events. and her facebook blog is called https://www.facebook.com/agonyautie/. As for working out why, would i be right in saying that paedophiles are another sigmatised group of people?

Stokes

“I dont know how she would react to paedophillia”
Having watched the video by her linked above I’m quite optimistic that she’s open minded. It’s actually difficult for me imagining her not being supportive of paedophiles, especially if someone would talk with her in person.

Libertine

Yes that was interesting. I read somewhere that most people are on a sliding scale when it comes to autism; A bit like the Kinsey Scale on sexuality.

daniel

Tom
the last time we spoke you mentioned not using the word abuse and im still a bit confused on this, as child lovers (paedophiles same thing) if we truthfully love children i think we should consider the word abuse to some extent. intimate and consensual relationships i still stand by, so depending on the subject ie the stuff that some people do with children that you don’t approve of and the stuff that you would approve of in an ideal society, and being an activist how would you in conversation describe the two separate scenarios and what words would you use?

daniel

Tom
I think i understand now thanx for the feed back.

Malvin Sheen

Omnipolitics16 was active on steam today and commented about the comments on his account.
Comments
Cleansleeves 5 hours ago
Damn, why are you people on my steam account commenting on my profile? Are you guy’s genuinely that bored or can’t get your dicks off me? Let’s keep ‘business on youtube’ business on youtube, not bring it to steam mkay?
https://steamcommunity.com/id/omnipolitics16
Seems like he is just laying low, and doesn’t want to be a part of activism no more. I hope not, I feel he should come back to activism about intergenerational sex on YouTube. I msg him on steam about this, since he has experience with criticism and knows more about the bullshit surrounding it and also having a young voice in the movement helps a lot, but this is what he stated.
Cleansleeves 1 hour ago
I’m sorry, my activism days are over. If people want to fuck up children with their denial and horse shit talk about me or pedophiles, that’s on them honestly. If kids want to grow up and do the same thing as the previous pinheaded generation, go wild! And if some other person wants to be in the spotlight of attention like me back then, then go nuts and good luck, hopefully they will have more patience and more articulate arguments to put forth to the pinheads that don’t want a change in the law for how to deal w/sex crimes. I am honestly done and don’t care no more about this shit, people can go fuck themselves, I just want to live my life how I want and I will pursue that, no matter if the legal system has an eyebrow raised on my choices.
I don’t like this response, but I wanted to post it to show you that his death wasn’t real and what his future plans are for the pedophile movement.

daniel

Melvin Sheen
r u sure he’s still alive, it could be a ruse.
>I don’t like this response, but I wanted to post it to show you that his death wasn’t real and what his future plans are for the pedophile movement.

Explorer

To the best of my knowledge, Omni is dead. He has committed suicide.
Until / unless being disproven (which is highly unlikely), I maintain that this new “Omni” is just a remarkably unethical (even by troll standards) troll who pretends to be a tragically dead person.
Unfortunately, there are people out there who are utterly devoid of any ethics whatsoever, and Internet anonymity provides them with a lot of possibilities.

Purpledragon85

This account has been up for years. (Hasnt played any games since 400 days ago.) Hell even at the time of his controversy. I doubt its a troll.
Also look at his comment. To me, it seems to be him as it comments like him.

Explorer

There is another version I can think about: Omni had a good and close friend who supported his activism; while Onmi was in jail, he replied to the e-mails I sent to him – using Omni’s own mail box with his permission (later Omni was released from jail and confirmed this permission in our subsequent e-mail exchange). So, it is possible that this friend was permitted by Omni to enter his Steam account as well (while he was still alive), and now use it to reply to comments.
Maybe he took the “Omni” pseudonym and his activism and is willing to continue from where the original Omni left… well, I would like to hope so. We will see.

Russell

I’ll message him on steam today to see if this is the real omni or just some troll. I have him as a friend already on steam so messaging him shouldn’t be difficult.

Explorer

Russel, may I ask you: why have you deleted your WordPress blog?!! I was so disappointed when you did it. Maybe you were emotionally crushed by Omni’s sudden death? Or there was some other reason?
Of course, you’re not obliged to explain your reasons to me (or anyone else), so I would understand if you will refuse to tell us about them. Yet, I hope you will…

Russell

My account on wordpress was hacked, and the hacker shutdown my wordpress page and changed my password. I was able to log back into my account, but have no use for it as my page was shut down. I didn’t create another one nor try to restore my old one is mostly because I rarely was active on my wordpress, and I got very lazy with writing and activism in general.

Russell

After my post about omnipolitics supposed suicide I have received loads of traffic from various sources, which was due to Amos and holocaust talking about it on social media. Obviously I had some posts regarding my defense towards child sex, which would indicate that people who are computer smart, but not knowledge wise smart, had the opportunity to guess my password or change it to remove my posts and site. Most likely for a case of false righteousism or having a hard on for censoring people, either way the goal of shutting down my site was for the idea that defending paedophiles is ‘wrong’

Ed Chambers

It does appear that this is some sort of joke in incredibly poor taste.
As twisted as it is, I happen to agree with the sentiment of his ‘lie,. There does appear to very little progress or prospect of progress regarding the revelation of truth regarding positive IGRs in the public domain. Fearing that I may sound like a scratched record, I maintain that it’s important to keep the idea alive, the research well archived, and to invest in strengthening the community, namely on Topic Links as a hub, instead of trying to appeal to normies who don’t care for the truth.
Bearing this in mind, it is decidedly NOT a good idea to be trying to sell yourself as the next martyr of a community, with said martyrdom destined to be nothing better than a waste of a life.

Russell

@Explorer anyway to email him or contact him?

Explorer

I just did it, using the e-mail address which I used when I had a message exchange with him. Let’s see if there would be a reply.

Explorer

After two futile attempts to establish contact with Omni’s friend via Omni’s old e-mail, I can safely conclude that this e-mail are most probably not being used by anyone these days.
Russel, were your attempts to reach the supposed “Omni” via Steam message system more successful than mine? Or not?

Russell

My attempt on contacting him was not successful, but I wouldn’t give up now as sometimes people respond late.

Leansleeves

First off, why are you stalking my steam page? Little creepy don’t you say?
Secondly, I am not dead. My friends thought it was a great idea to spread that around to get less controversy on me. Obviously it somewhat worked, and wasn’t anything I knew about until a month ago. I also couldn’t retort the claim since I been dealing with other trouble at home both legally and familial wise.
Third, I posted on my steam since I received comments on that account denoting to my views on child sex, which should strictly stay on YouTube or private email DM because that is my gaming account. I want my attraction and views to not revolve constantly around me everywhere I go, it’s annoying and just time consuming and I prefer it stays on one fucking site, and a site that is just surrounded by unfunny twats. (Luckily some funny individuals are on the site.) I am adamant in what I said to this guy, I am done with activism. (Well at least for now, because who knows the future really.) To me, I wasted my time giving my views up and all I received was people with a stick up their ass constantly nagging me both in real life and online about ‘how I am wrong’ or ‘your stupid’ ‘biased’ just garbage. I am just sick of it, while its funny at first after a while it gets annoying. The fact that I have morally compassed assholes in my life who give me the same shit is too much, trying to debate with them was like debating with a flat earther on the earth being spherical. Not to mention the little progress in pedophile activism just kind of and still does gives me a sense of hopelessness. Sorry for long text, but I wanted to explain myself why I give up on activism. I still believe child sex isn’t wrong nor bad, VPs are annoying cocky asswipes that make just about as much sense as someone arguing for the legalization of murder, and I certainly won’t stop talking about it even on the blog I created.
https://kingsl33v3sboq3sq.wordpress.com
but debating and going mainstream again is something I will leave my older self to decide for, most likely I would leave it in the past.

daniel

I have read what youth liberator has written and also the responses that Ed Chambers has written and i agree with both attitudes Ed on the 1 hand is right Leon you are only 1 man and you need to acknowledge that just like every 1 else who does this kind of work, I think that Ed should encourage Leon to stand firm on his motives whilst at the same time help Leon properly prepare him for the difficult times ahead ie the reality check that he has offered and i think if we are going to get anywhere then we should work as a team rather than going solo.

Ed Chambers

Fair comment Daniel. All things being said and done, perhaps it is best to move on from this situation, at the very least, for now.

Explorer

Tom, what about making your CHIN triple by publishing it on IPCE as well? It seems all your earlier works are available there in full, so it definitely won’t hurt to have CHIN there as well.

Explorer

Well, in such a case my mediation between you and Frans is not needed. 🙂
And… Please remind him about the dissertation I have found and sent him many months ago. I can wait as long as needed, but I want to see it (or its excerpts, or summary) published in the end. 😉

daniel

Ton wer did the chin meeting take place?

Ed Chambers

There is only one pub the meeting could’ve taken place at….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNWDdcVA79c

Christian

Good introduction to the paper (I still have to read it).
For Scruton’s book, rather than linking to the simple text version (obtained by OCR of the PDF), you can link to the full archive record, which links to all versions and allows online viewing: https://archive.org/details/1scrutonRogerSexualDesireAPhilosophicalInvestigation
About Scruton, you mention on the one hand his promotion of “freedom and Western values” in the late Soviet block, and on the other hand his love of fox hunting, distaste for homosexuality and ferocious hostility towards perversion and obscenity (including paedophilia), as if the two aspects were contradictory. In fact, fear of childhood sexuality and hatred for intergenerational sex are fundamental “Western values” of modern capitalism, and this type of sex phobia rose with Reagan and Thatcher, warriors for so-called “freedom and Western values”, and the phobia reigns since their capitalist victory against the Soviet bloc.

warbling j turpitude

I think you do intellectual inquiry (gasp) a disservice here Christian by compressing together so glibly the language of values/capitalism and that of phobia/hatred. Do you really believe that such a “phobia” and/or “hatred” is our *value* and that it is instrumentally operative somehow at the heart of capitalism? If so, I’d like to know much more about your understanding of how that is so?
I think LSM at ConsentingHumans got closest to the fiendish subtleties at work with his essay on *The Consumer Child*, and he certainly did not have to invoke phobias, hatred, etcetera,..

Yure

I have your original paper sitting here, but thanks for the spoilers anyway. I’m gonna read the full thing, it’s not even that long. I study philosophy in my spare time and I saw bigger stuff: Summa Theologiae is in my to-read list and it’s four-thousand pages. It’s actually a relief to see that you would be interested in making a version “for dummies” of your article, much appreciated.

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