Child drag artist Desmond is Amazing is indeed amazing.
And hot! Just check out this introductory video on YouTube. No wonder 11-year-old Desmond Napoles and other kids daringly diving into drag culture right now have provoked right-wing reactionaries into paroxysms of moral outrage.
Let’s face it, when a pretty young boy tells the world he is gay and dances sensuously in front of grown men, wearing vampish dresses and makeup; when “she” strips off items of clothing or goes on stage scantily clad right from the off; when dollar bills are accepted as “tips” from an audience apparently wild with excitement; when all this is going on we are getting far more than just a celebration of gender diversity or an innocent display of precocious performance talent.
And that’s great. It is wonderful that a rare niche has been found in the modern, developed world within which at least a few kids can truly be themselves, in ways that deny neither their gender feelings nor their sexuality. Being a drag queen, or a drag princess if you will, puts it right out there, in the open for all to see. It says, loud and proud, “I am a sexy kid, with sexy feelings. It’s totally cool for grown-ups to get turned on by me. I love it. That’s why I do this stuff. It’s great. It’s fun. It’s me!”
Panicky conservatives, needless to say, spin it differently, desperate as they are to pretend that kids have no erotic dimension, or at least none that is self-generated. In their telling, performances such as Desmond’s and those of fellow artists such as “Queen Lactacia” (Nemis Quinn Mélançon-Golden) are a travesty in the worst sense: these are kids, they claim, who are being “sexualised” by exploitative adults hell bent on corrupting their supposed natural innocence.
In Desmond’s case the criticism began long ago, following his drag performance at age eight during the 2015 New York City Pride Parade. At that time, Desmond and his parents were defended by Rutgers University professor Michael LaSala, author of Coming Out, Coming Home: Helping Families Adjust to a Gay or Lesbian Child. He rejected the notion that such performances were due to parental influence.
Within the last year, though, the attacks have become much more fierce, persistent and vicious. Stirred up by the right-wing media, angry complainants have made over a hundred allegations of child abuse against Desmond’s parents with the child protection services and police.
American LGBT fashion, entertainment, and lifestyle magazine Out explored this phenomenon in an article earlier this year. Out reported that these attacks against the Napoles family escalated after a drag performance at a bar in New York last December. This show was at 3 Dollar Bill, a queer, multifunctional performance space in Brooklyn. Desmond’s mother, Wendy, is quoted as saying Desmond “was not allowed anywhere but on stage and in the dressing room. I accompanied him in these areas. His father was in the audience.”
Out adds that that “like any other queen, Desmond was tipped by audience members”. Tipping drag performers is customary, we are told, “but adults outside of the community are attempting to label something so innocent as imitating one’s favourite celebrities as stripping”.
While nobody seems to be suggesting that Desmond stripped naked, it has been claimed that shows are being permitted in which kids have stripped off at least some of their clothes. And in at least one of Desmond’s shows he isn’t wearing a lot to start with: quite a bit of his slight, slender, little body is on provocative display.
In a less sexy form of provocation, The American Conservative brought out an article accusingly titled “Desmond: The Bacha Of Brooklyn”. Its author, Rod Dreher, begins with a heavily loaded, prejudicial comparison with Asian boy dancers. He says “Bacha bazi is a traditional practice in Afghanistan and some other central Asian cultures, in which boys and adolescent males are compelled to dance for older men, usually as a prelude to pederastic sex.”
Note that “compelled” bit. Whatever may be the practice in Afghanistan and elsewhere, I see absolutely zero evidence that either Desmond or any other drag kids in the western world are being forced to perform. This is just a smear – a tactic regrettably par for the course on the “fake news” Right, as I know to my cost: Dreher was among the traditionalist, mainly religious, scribes who loudly and libellously denounced my article “Childhood ‘innocence’ is not ideal” last year. See Lording it from the wild margins.
But there is fake news on the so-called “liberal” Left, too, a prime example of which we are treated to in the Out article. The author, identified only as “Devin-Norelle” (no forename), cited Dreher’s article and wrote:
These arguments are dangerous; conservative media has associated Desmond’s performance of drag with sexuality simply because he transgresses the binary and opts to express his femininity. Newsflash: gender identity and sexuality are not one and the same. Desmond’s exploration and toying of gender is not a discovery of his sexual attractions, nor is it a tactic to invite the sexual desires of others. Drag, whether performed by an adult or a child, is simply a means of gender play and expression. It is not a sexual event. Their arguments also recklessly imply that the mere presence of gay men watching a child sing creates an atmosphere with sexual undertones. Yet men frequently watch male adults and children play sports. Is it only sexual when gay men take part? No – it’s all blatant homophobia and transphobia.
Spot the fake news? How about this: “Drag, whether performed by an adult or a child, is simply a means of gender play and expression. It is not a sexual event.”
Big, fat lie! Drag is not “simply a means of gender play and expression”, though that is obviously a significant aspect of it. Sure, drag can be performed with wholly non-erotic intent and often is: Dame Edna Everage, for instance, the classic creation of Australian comedian Barry Humphries, is played entirely for laughs: “she” is all about wit and satire. Likewise, my namesake Brendan O’Carroll’s “Mrs Brown” does something similar in considerably cruder terms: there’s plenty of smutty innuendo but no one would accuse O’Carroll of being sexually hot – actually, that goes for both of us! 🙁
But when a kid declares himself to be gay, as Desmond has, he is talking about sexual feelings: “gay”, after all, refers to a sexual orientation not a gender identity. If his interest in wearing girls’ clothes was an expression only of his gender identity he would see himself as “trans”, not “gay” – a girl in a boy’s body and perhaps with ambitions to transition physically into a woman later on.
So why all the denial? Why the coy insistence that kids’ drag performance has nothing to do with their sexuality? Hypocrisy, basically. For decades now, gay politics has revolved around respectability, and that has meant aping hetero-normativity: gay couples with committed relationships, marriage, and parenthood, have become the promoted model; the old, carefree “promiscuity” of the gay life is frowned upon (if still a reality for many) and any cross-generational sexual contact with youth is now far more taboo than it ever was in the “bad old days” when homosexuality was a discretely practised underground phenomenon.
Hypocrisy is detestable for its dishonesty; but on the other hand it works. Politically, it makes sense. Denial of the sexual element in kids’ drag performances has recently resulted in them being perceived as on the “respectable” side of the gender revolution, despite all the excitable right-wing huffing and puffing. While It cannot have been much fun for the Napoles family to be subjected to official investigation for child abuse, it is now becoming clear that they have gained a measure of support from the authorities.
A report in Gay Star News cites information posted on Instagram by Desmond’s mother. She is quoted as saying the Administration for Child Services (ACS) “has investigated us thoroughly… Our family was probed more intensely than any other case before. All allegations were ‘unfounded’.” Even better: “On the plus side, ACS has been offering us many support services.” Other official agencies including the police have also given the family a clean bill of health.
Thanks to the strength of gay community support, and sympathy from feminists (always keen to promote challenges to gender stereotypes), it may be that even quite risqué expressions of kids’ drag are now able to pass under the radar. Notably, an outfit called “Trump Army” demanded to know “Why no arrests?” after “10-year-old drag queen photographed with naked adult male”, as their headline put it. This was a reference to “Queen Lactacia”, who has already been mentioned above. Huck magazine ran a photo shoot featuring young Nemis. In a shot that didn’t make the magazine, Nemis is seen posing in drag with adult drag queen Violet Chachki. In “the shocking photo”, as Trump Army calls it, Violet is naked but for the flimsiest of genital coverings. While nakedness is no big deal to anyone with a body-positive attitude, it is interesting that the boy’s mother, Jessica Melancon, is said to have “conceded that drag has a sexual component and is unapologetic about her young son wearing sexually suggestive clothing if it ‘makes him feel beautiful’.”
Good for her!
RICHARD, A LIONHEART FOR MINORITY RIGHTS
Gay activist Peter Tatchell wrote an obituary in the Guardian last month which began as follows:
Across five decades the American psychiatrist and lawyer Richard Green, who has died aged 82, contributed to landmark achievements for gay and trans rights, risking his reputation and career to advance the understanding and acceptance of sexual and gender minorities.
I can personally vouch for the man’s courage in this regard. You won’t find anything about it in Tatchell’s otherwise excellent account, but Richard was also strikingly bold and brave in attempting to bring paedophilia in from the cold. While this aspect of his work was far less successful than the rest of his glittering career, the fact that an internationally renowned expert with much to lose would even think of such a project tells us what a fearless fighter he was.
My introduction to Richard was through the International Academy of Sex Research (IASR), of which he had been the founder and first president in 1975. Twenty years ago, in 1999, when he was about to take the annual presidency for a second time, he boldly went out on a limb, inviting me to speak at the academy’s Paris conference in 2000, to give a paedophile’s perspective. This was in keeping with his pioneering other work for sexual minorities as outlined in his memoir Gay Rights, Trans Rights – which I commend as admirably concise and characteristically witty.
Back in the 1970s Richard published a groundbreaking paper calling for the removal of homosexuality from the American Psychiatric Association’s list of mental disorders, “despite being advised that it would ruin his career”, as Tatchell says. The following year he reiterated his call at the APA annual meeting and the organisation removed homosexuality from the list.
It was a fantastic success, paving the way for gayness to be considered normal and acceptable. In what may now seem a madly ambitious bid to replicate this success with paedophilia, in 2002 he published an article in the journal of the IASR, the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Titled “Is pedophilia a mental disorder?”, the paper presented strong empirical data and cogent arguments so show that paedophilia, like homosexuality, should not be considered pathological. This time, though, he was up against the full weight of the most powerful taboo of all and his ideas did not find favour.
But he had a go, that’s the point, and he was very supportive towards me personally. After we met in Paris we continued to see each other whenever I was in London, where he was a professor of psychiatry until his retirement, after which he stayed on in the capital, moving only from Fulham to Hampstead in his final years. He successfully proposed me for membership of psychologist J. Michael Bailey’s cross-disciplinary Sexnet forum, wrote to the court on my behalf when I was in trouble with the law, and gave a glowing pre-publication endorsement of my book Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons.
Most of all though, I will remember with pleasure the many times we shared a convivial drink and a meal together, usually at his expense. He behaved like a friend, in other words, not like a shrink with a dangerous “convicted paedophile” as part of his caseload. I was never his patient and never felt like one in his company.
All those years ago in Paris, Richard and his wife Melissa Hines, a neuroscientist, put me at ease immediately, joining me on a conference-organised canal-boat excursion, where they introduced me to their ten-year-old son, Adam. More than anything else they could have done, this friendly gesture (fully visible to other conference participants on the trip) convinced me that neither of them shared the popular prejudice that paedophiles must be shunned as pariahs.
A summary of Richard’s paper “Is pedophilia a mental disorder?” is to be seen here, at Ipce, along with details of the wider debate in the Archives of which this article was a part. There is another obituary of Richard here, in the New York Times.
Not in the Genes, Somethings Wrong With The Wiring
there was a time when this sort of thing would have disgusted and outraged me, but as long as Desmond does it of his own free will and his parents fully support him, who are we to say otherwise?
LGBT people existing does not result in victims, peadophilia does
>peadophilia does
What’s peadophilia? Addiction to peas?
Seriously, sexual assault has victims, regardless of their age. There is nothing intrinsically harmful or victimising about sexual contacts in which a child is a willing participant.
Yes yes make pedophilia the new progressive orthodoxy, this will work out GREAT, no way it results in a backlash with injuries to the rights of gay and lesbian adults, to say nothing of kids, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG
Hi Matt,
You wrote:
>…no way it results in a backlash with injuries to the rights of gay and lesbian adults
This is the zero sum game of identity politics, sadly. It says if my tribe is going to win, yours must lose. In this case you are saying paedophiles must lose in order for gays to win.
Identity politics is vicious. It pits oppressed minorities against each other when everyone should be calling for true justice i.e. equal rights for all.
Pedophiles must lose for society to win.
>Sexual attraction to children is nothing new, Gabriel. Only in recent times has cultural change made this into a win-lose scenario, like a war. There is no fundamental reason why parents and paedophiles should not be friends, just as paedophiles can be friends with children.
You’ve been arrested for distribution of child pornography. Do you know where most children in pornography come from? Fucking sex trafficking you goddamn predator. Do not even begin to tell me how “ethical” yours is and they “consented” when a child can’t even decide whether they want chicken nuggets or fries at the restaraunt without breaking down crying. Anyone versed in child development and child psychology understands that children do not have the maturation to understand what predators like you are doing no matter how sweetly you want to dress it.
In the words of a classic old commercial here in the UK, “Calm down, dear!” No point in bursting a blood vessel or giving yourself a heart attack.
>a child can’t even decide whether they want chicken nuggets or fries at the restaraunt without breaking down crying.
Being spoilt for choice can be confusing and depressing even for adults. Who among us hasn’t wished life were simpler when trying to decide a best buy from among dozens (or online even hundreds) of different brands and types of product? But kid ARE capable of being very vocal and decisive when it comes to what they definitely do NOT want, as long as they are not coerced to accept it – which ethical MAPs never advocate.
Back to your nuggets or fries scenario, I would be worried seeing a kid literally in tears over an intrinsically pleasant choice such as this. What would distress them to such a degree? An impatient parent hovering over them, perhaps, piling on pressure? “Make your goddamn mind up or you’ll get nothing”? Unfortunately, parents can sometimes be brusque and coercive. Emotional abuse of this sort is actually known to be damaging, whereas uncoerced sexual contact is not intrinsically harmful.
>Do you know where most children in pornography come from? Fucking sex trafficking
No, the consensus within law enforcement is that most such material is non-commercial, unlike trafficking. Among adolescents, a high proportion of material is now self-produced, without adult involvement.
Pedophiles are not an oppressed minority.
You’re a despised tribe of sexual deviants, hurting children. It’s not wrong to hate harmful deviancy. In fact I recommend it for a healthy society.
As with the rape of one adult by another, the harm is attributable to the act being coercively or violently imposed i.e. non-consensual. The same is true with adult-minor encounters of this sort.
Contrary to the legal fact, but actual fiction, that children cannot consent to sex, they can and do. See my current blog re Principle 16 of The 8 March Principles expounded this year by the International Commission of Jurists.
Where there is consent, as rigorous research has demonstrated, there is no association with harm. Should you care to get up to speed on the available research, which I have written about soberly in my less celebratory blogs, I would be happy to hear out any newly well-informed arguments you wish to bring to the table. Unless of course your new education permits you to understand that your present position is prejudiced and untenable.
[…] has been the subject of an admiring profile on “Good Morning America” as well as a celebratory blog post by a convicted pedophile. When is a child fully capable of autonomy? Age of consent is inevitably […]
[…] has been the subject of an admiring profile on “Good Morning America” as well as a celebratory blog post by a convicted pedophile. When is a child fully capable of autonomy? Age of consent is inevitably […]
[…] has been the subject of an admiring profile on “Good Morning America” as well as a celebratory blog post by a convicted pedophile. When is a child fully capable of autonomy? Age of consent is inevitably […]
[…] an excerpt from the article, O’Carroll admits what many advocates of child drag shows try to hide; that the events are […]
[…] they have done it again, in spectacular style, weaponising my recent blog Desmond is truly amazing – and hot! They have used it to attack boy drag queen Desmond Napoles and his family, all child drag acts, and […]
[…] Back in May in a blog post for his WordPress site – which is openly pro-paedophile – O’Carrol declares that “Desmond is truly amazing — and […]
[…] Desmond is truly amazing – and hot! […]
[…] blog post for his WordPress site — which is openly and proudly pro-pedophile — O’Carrol declaresthat “Desmond is truly amazing — and […]
There’s literally nothing wrong with pedophilia.
[…] an excerpt from the article, O’Carroll admits what many advocates of child drag shows try to hide; that the events are […]
[…] an article entitled Desmond is truly amazing – and hot! – O’Carroll writes, “Child drag artist Desmond is Amazing is indeed amazing. And hot!…. No […]
Seriously? You an adult male is referring to a male child as hot is repulsive! No child should be performing for an adult. It reeks of pedophilia! Not lgbtq.
I am an ally of the lgbtq community. I have tons of gay friends & close family members that are gay. I am not a conservative politically and I am totally against this. Shame on you!!
You… you just cannot be serious with this article.
No foolin’ you, Patife! This is the British branch of The Onion!
[…] an excerpt from the article, O’Carroll admits what many advocates of child drag shows try to hide; that the events are […]
What I find astonishing and revealing are the number of Twitter comments expressing shock and amazement that a paedophile might find Desmond ‘hot’.
Paedophiles find sexually provocative children ‘hot’!? Who’d have thought it!?
Their reaction reveals that the people writing these comments have failed to join some very simple dots on this issue. What did they imagine paedophiles feel towards (attractive) children?
I suspect that they imagined that paedophiles, when faced with a child (any child) experience not attraction, affection or love, but something akin to the emotions felt by teleiophilic (adult-loving) rapists, sadists, pimps, serial philanderers etc – impulses to dominate, destroy, corrupt or control.
I think their outrage stems from the fact that your article implicitly disabuses them of this delusion – paedophiles experience much the same common-or-garden feelings towards an attractive and charming child as they (normies) feel towards their partners. And, yes, ‘desire’ is one of them.
And I think that for them, that is a more shocking thought than the grotesque assumptions they previously held.
This may not be surprising since nowhere in the dominant narrative, the msm, are real paedophiles or real paedophilia depicted – the 99.9% of paedophiles who feel towards children much the same feelings of tenderness, awe and respect as (I’m sure) the outraged Twitterers feel towards those whom they love.
I’d invite them to imagine what impression a martian would have of THEIR love if all they had to know it by were the reports in the the crime pages of the scandal sheets and shows like Jeremy Kyle… if whenever heterosexual teleiophilia (adult loving) were mentioned the only narratives that sprung to mind were Harvey Wienstein and rapist/murderers on Death Row.
Indeed! Well observed, LSM!
” outrage stems from the fact that your article implicitly disabuses them of this delusion – paedophiles experience much the same common-or-garden feelings towards an attractive and charming child as they (normies) feel towards their partners. And, yes, ‘desire’ is one of them”
Yes indeed……Another example is youtube with their disabling of comments, even non sexual, mundane kids videos are comments disabled. The sheer number of compliments some kids would get also destroys that myth. So the moderators do what they do best: close down debate.
It is obvious that the writer of this article is completely oblivious to the grooming tactics used in pedophilia as well as the ways in which child sexual exploitation works. Children who are groomed and learn to respond to the accolades of influential adults will eventually do things for said adults even if they’re uncomfortable.
Rather than spend an entire article accusing everyone who expresses concern for these kids as being less accepting and progressive as yourself maybe do some serious research on the behaviors of predatory relationships and the psychological science of pediatric neurology as it pertains to the development of the child’s brain and emotional pathways.
>It is obvious that the writer of this article is completely oblivious to the grooming tactics used in pedophilia
If, as the post’s author, I know so little about it, then obviously I cannot possibly be a paedophile, can I? 🙂 Forgive me for saying this in response to your entirely civil and reasonable comment. It is just that in a number of extremely abusive, expletive-laden posts (deleted for this reason) the “contributors” thought it sufficient to denounce me as a paedophile.
>psychological science of pediatric neurology as it pertains to the development of the child’s brain and emotional pathways
Perhaps you think you are well versed in this, Kalee? If so, please tell us more, giving some specific indications as to how findings in paediatric neurology go against anything I have said, preferably with references?
A salient point from research with which I am familiar is that neglect, violence and dysfunctional chaos in children’s early upbringing, often in families where there is alcohol and drug abuse, tend to stress children out in ways that have a profound impact on the brain. These deleterious effects are NOT associated solely with voluntary sexual activity in childhood per se, whether with adults or with other children. The problem is that very often studies are done that lump all sorts of “abuse” together, so that the outcome of sexual contact is wrongly tarred with the same brush as violence, neglect and chaos.
>If, as the post’s author, I know so little about it, then obviously I cannot possibly be a paedophile, can I?
No, it makes it unlikely that you’re an active child molester. You’ve expressed quite clearly that you’re comfortable with adults embracing sexuality towards children in other ways, which makes it sound a little like you might very well be a pedophile. The difference being (for those who are unaware) that if you have sexual attraction to children, you’re a pedophile – acting on it and engaging in a sexual act would make you a child molester. You do seem to think it’s normal for adults to be attracted to children, and it isn’t. But it’s not a crime.
Pedophilia is a condition (that should be attended to for the sake of making sure you don’t hurt anyone), and molesting children is a crime. I don’t know whether intentionally watching scantily clad children try to be sexy on stage is a good approach to attending to that condition that can be used to satisfy a pedophile’s needs without further engagement, or whether it tempts them to try to create a situation where they can engage in sexual acts with children. I’m open to the idea that there could be a different answer to that question for different pedophiles.
And YOUR “Child Protection” nonsense, so-called millennial adults who cannot handle a different opinion and are nothing but NPCs, is going to lead to the collapse of the USA, when the precious Baby Boomers retire and take all the money, leaving the rest of us with nothing.
One good thing with the collapse, is society resets to Zero. And real pedophilia, sex with kids under 9 years old will stay the same, but teenagers and tweenagers will be adults.
What is a “tweenager”? Is this some brand new category of human? Something we should all look out for?
Thank God my kids went straight from primary school to adulthood, none of this tweenager twaddle.
Some just believe anything that feels good is ok and are leaving discretion to a child. Children learn from adults what is right and wrong. The adults provoke behavior from a child by giving their attention or is seen by the child as excited or aroused it is only because the child is needy of approval, acceptance and attention. It is a performance and the child’s reward is the attention. Without direction and morals, humans become self centered ego driven monsters that like the story of Lucifer, desire to be worshipped and adored.
>Without direction and morals
I do agree that we all need to be accountable to the wider community. And, yes, children do seek “approval, acceptance and attention”. But neither of these points means that bodily intimacy is a bad thing. Many adults sexually attracted to children are loving, caring, benign people. It perhaps makes you feel good to brand us as “monsters”, but from where we stand these dogmatic, finger-waving sermons lack conviction. To us, you seem to be talking about someone else.
I have difficulty with the concept of “grooming” simply because there is no realistic way in which we can distinguish between paedophilic “grooming” and non-paedophilic “friendliness”.
That this is so is discussed rarely, but Craven and Gilchrist do give the problem a short discussion in their paper “Current responses to sexual grooming: Implication for prevention.” (doi: 10.1111/j.1468-2311.2007.00454.x) If we cannot in fact distinguish between paedophilic and non-paedophilic behaviour, how are we to talk about grooming in any coherent sense without evidence of later sexual contact?
Why this difficulty is not mentioned more often is something I do not yet understand, but it is a difficulty which deserves to be mentioned more often.
If a non-paedophile comes to know a child and their parents, and gives gifts and takes the child out on excursions, is this paedophilic behaviour? This certainly is what is described as “grooming” but it is not clear that is is grooming. The only thing that could make it grooming is if the person doing this in in fact a paedophile, but without an admission of paedophilia (or actual proven sexual contact) we cannot know.
The problem is that “grooming” behaviour is a backwards matter: if/when paedophilic sexual contact occurs, then we look back and see how the paedophile behaved, making no distinction between that paedophile’s behaviour and a non-paedophile’s behaviour (or the behaviour of a paedophile who does not engage in sexual activity but keeps it all as non-sexual friendship).
Sorry, cannot be bothered re-writing this to make it clearer.
>Sorry, cannot be bothered re-writing this to make it clearer.
Seems clear to me and makes a very good point.
Thanks, I am glad it is clear. I just wasn’t sure I had said enough.
Someone once said ‘grooming’ is a seduction pejorative, That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. Weasel, umbrella and catch all also come to mind. I also read that PDF on ‘sexual grooming’.I forgot about that article, It was on the old HD that fell victim to a Drill.
Hope you caught the Drill! 😉
Anyone with common sense should know this is child abuse. Poor child robbed of her childhood.
“Her” childhood? Talya, Desmond is a gay BOY not a trans GIRL, as you would know if you had bothered to challenge your “common sense” by reading the article.
This kid is awesome and so are his parents! Get lives and leave them to theirs!! This child is an intelligent and talented activist (.) And his parents doing excellent job at offering him the love ?? and support that he needs to grow and develop!! He is not being exploited or abused, he would not allow that nor would his parents, and it doesn’t take much research to find this out. This article is full of hot air, it’s a bunch of people spouting off just for the sake of spouting off, come on find something productive to do in this life before it’s too late !!
Totally agree with the first part of what you say, Julie, but it looks as though you haven’t really read the article, which does NOT attack Desmond or his parents.
So you’re saying you’re a pedo apologist. Duly noted.
There is something seriously wrong with people thinking it is ok to have this kid be put into that kind of world. He is a child not an adult and shouldn’t be subjugated to anything sexual in any way.
This is a very well written, and fair, article ! Having said that, my personal opinion is that this young man needs better guidance in his life. It’s great his parents have an open mind, but there have to be lines drawn in the sand. These situations are very sexual situations, ones that ARE NOT for children. Period.
Deep down, I think even the ones cheering him on and tipping him even know he shouldn’t be there. Is nothing sacred any longer? You wrote about his parents being reported to CPS, I’d like to know what their (CPS) position on this may be? What have they done, if anything? Have they (CPS) released a statement? Have any law enforcement popped up at all regarding this yet?
Thanks !
Chad
>I’d like to know what their (CPS) position on this may be?
Don’t know about the US, but comparable family reports in the UK are kept private. The first anyone would know from official sources anything was perhaps wrong would be if the case was referred to the police for action and an arrest or charge was made. Haven’t heard anything of that sort yet.
>This is a very well written, and fair, article !
Glad you think so, Chad, and thanks for saying so.
As a gay man I find this deeply problematic. For decades we have maintained that Anita Bryant was lying when she said we would come for the children.
Drag is a mature form of art. It provides a vessel for emotions that men aren’t otherwise allowed to express. This circumvents so much of what we’ve worked toward and what drag represents for so many of us. End this madness; let the kids be kids and let them grow up into who they are.
Thank you!
Exactly!!
I feel like the silence in the gay community is actually damaging. Being gay doesn’t make a person predatory-the two are completely unconnected however if more people do not point out, at the very least, the concerns that children in these adult situations is inappropriate, than it looks like the gay community has accepted it as not even debatable.
I think your comment is spot on Thanku!
I have spoken to several of my friends about this and the general concern is fear of being labeled intolerant. There are a lot of issues that horrify many gay people but the current political climate insists we not only tolerate but celebrate. Efforts to include pedophilia to the gay movement are being made by ignorant college professors in humanities departments in the UK and US. These must be resisted and refuted at every turn.
>ignorant college professors
Wow! That sounds very lofty. So what does it take to qualify as being educated? Would having the same background, experiences and opinions as you be sufficient by any chance? And by what criteria are you saying these unnamed “ignorant” people are wrong?
Pedophilia is not an orientation because age is not gender. But one proponent has already given a TED talk on the subject without bona fides in psychology, biology, or medicine.
As for my own credentials, I hold an MA in liberal studies, an MFA in writing genre fiction, and am completing my thesis for my MS in psychology. I can state with more than a small measure of authority that PhDs in literary theory seldom know any science let alone the biology and psychology involved in human sexuality. This is why a whole generation of young people erroneously believe there are 30+ genders.
>But one proponent has already given a TED talk on the subject without bona fides in psychology, biology, or medicine.
A “college professor”? Who would that be? Can you be a little more forthcoming as to what was actually said? Hard to know whether they were wrong otherwise.
>>Pedophilia is not an orientation because age is not gender.
Your point might be put more securely if you said “Pedophilia is not a SEXUAL orientation because age is not gender.” I see the semantic logic in what you are saying.
In terms of the psychology of sexual orientation, though, that is not the end of the matter. It is the ATTRACTION to children that is sexual and this is what is significant in psychological and indeed forensic terms. A paedophile may become aroused by male or female children or by both. An “exclusive” paedophile does not find adults of either sex arousing. This strong and constant directionality of feeling is what constitutes paedophilia as an “orientation”.
See Michael Seto, “Is Pedophilia a Sexual Orientation?”, here:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-011-9882-6
>PhDs in literary theory seldom know any science let alone the biology and psychology involved in human sexuality.
Yes, in my experience you are dead right on this! Until you specified, I had no idea what sort of “college professors” you had in mind.
Conservatives are “panicky?”. Is it strange I have a problem with an 11 year old being described as “hot” and stripping off his clothes for tips like he’s at a strip club?
Apparently so-according to this article if we think that is maybe inappropriate we are horrible close minded unaccepting bigots?
I am happy for opponents to show they are NOT closed-minded. That is when civilised debate becomes possible.
Not strange at all. In fact you are quite brave for stating the obvious with how quickly one will get attacked for not falling in line with the pushing of this agenda. Which is to blur the lines so that anything goes, fitting their satanic, upside down beliefs. This makes me think of all things trans being pushed are to lighten the news of which will be coming in the future. Some social engineering/conditioning maybe?
[MODERATOR: THIS POST HAS UNFORTUNATELY APPEARED IN THE WRONG POSITION, NOT SURE WHY. IT IS INTENDED AS A RESPONSE TO “CAMILLE”. SEE HER POST BELOW: Jun 21, 2019 @ 05:07:36]
You know, I would love to reply to you in detail, but I’m not really sure what you are saying, except that it is intended to comfort you. Nonetheless, I think one of your points is that children are not sexual.
This is just factually wrong. It is a failure of the news media, primarily, that people such as yourself think this. Childhood sexuality has been known to exist forever, plus a day. Psychologist, historians, and philosophers research this subject, and have been doing so since at least the 1800s. As I said to someone else on this particular post, go to http://www.scholar.google.com and you will be surprised by the number of results. Often the researchers cannot agree on exactly what is normal, but they all agree it exists. With the exception of those who wish children to be sexually ignorant so that their research on paedophilia in not put to shame by reality. Here is a link to the search I just did. Please look at it and note the number of articles on childhood sexuality.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?oi=gsb95&q=childhood%20sexuality&lookup=0&hl=en
I, personally, am very glad that childhood disappears, never to return: I can get up to much more fun as an adult. But the issue here is ignorance. Do you really believe that children deserve to be left absolutely ignorant? Such that they believe sex is ….? I don’t know what you think, so I must leave an ellipsis to stand for your thoughts.
I feel no such need, and I very much doubt that the majority of people who come regularly to this blog feel such a need. Most, paedophiles and non-paedophiles, are deeply concerned with child welfare. And this is something you need to be aware of: A large proportion of the people, including myself, who come to this blog regularly are not paedophiles. But we do seek to understand and learn, which is something you are not willing to do, it would seem, which is a great pity.
I feel very sorry for him but on reading your comment, I am not at all surprised. I have the misfortune to know many women who raise their children ignorant of sex and relationships. Fortunately my wife was not one of these, and our children grew to adulthood without fear and worry about the opposite sex and having a good fuck. (I threw in “fuck” just to annoy you; my apologies.)
Thanks, I have no idea how it appeared there either. I certainly was replying to Camille.
I know I’m not the one you are replying to…but…
Oh the “good fuck” didn’t annoy me, more like triggered my sexual anxiety (trauma) with certain phrases specifically…feels kinda like a jumpscare when it happens.
You can be gay. You can be Trans, you can put a flower in your ass at night, but that doesn’t make it ok to promote pedophilia OF ANY SEXUAL ORIENTATION.
Thank you and you’re 100%
As someone who had “their sexuality” realized as a child, I can honestly say that this is a devastating ideal to promote. It destroys personal boundaries and teaches unhealthy, narcissistic ideas to a child about where his worth lies. I hate this as much as child pageants and even more so.
>It destroys personal boundaries and teaches unhealthy, narcissistic ideas to a child about where his worth lies.
I agree this would be terrible. We all need boundaries and kids need to be taught about them. Those boundaries include all manner of things from learning considerate table manners to having regard to other people’s feelings and not being mean to them.
To mind mind, though, excessive emphasis on sexual boundaries displaces energy that would be better expended on teaching more rationally grounded boundaries such as the ones mentioned above.
I take your point about teaching “unhealthy, narcissistic ideas to a child about where his worth lies” if children are only wanted for their bodies. Again, though, this singles out sexuality for negative attention in a way that I do not think is justified.
But I don’t want to gainsay your own experience. I would like to know more, actually, about exactly why you feel as you do. As I have said elsewhere today, I try to be open-minded. So by all means tell us more about your early experience. If you would prefer to discuss it privately, this is my email address: tomocarr66@yahoo.co.uk
I have no idea what your experience was, although I assume it was sexual contact with an adult because of the context of this entire page.
But, I would like to say that adult-child sexual contact is not the only type of childhood sexual contact that can result in damage to a child. In my instance, the sexual contact was mutual and as I remember quite deep play with a girl of the same age of 4 years. Because we were caught by her mother, I was verbally abused and threatened with death and eternal punishment (because it always is the man to blame, even in consensual contexts). This is the type of situation that occurs when (i) we live in a sexist society in which the male is always at fault sexually, (ii) when parents do not accept that children are, in fact and in action, sexual.
You may think that this was not very much at all, that it wouldn’t devastate a child, but: (i) I became fearful of and avoided all contact with men for 20 or more years, (ii) it ruined my relationship with my father for many years, (iii) I cam to loathe, at a very young age, all authority, especially that represented by men, (iv) The rest of the details are too private for this pubic space, although (v) I avoided sexual contact as often as possible, never attempted to seduce a woman (well, a couple of times, which I regret enormously, as anxiety kept me from being very good at it, and the experiences were good for neither of us), always waited for women to seduce me. (I still wait for women to seduce me, but this no longer happens, which is a bit of a pity—too old and ugly, I presume. :D)
My point is that the sexual acts I engaged in, at 4, with a 4 year old girl, freely and playfully but seriously, caused me no end of trouble for many many years after we were caught in the act, so to speak. I got over it, got married a couple of times, had kids, and made many male friends, and have had a jolly good life. Everyone can get over it, if they but try!
Of course, it also sent me on a lifetime of philosophic and psychological research, trying to understand humanity and all it’s behaviour, especially sexual and moral. And that, in all honesty, strikes me as a good result for a bad experience.
>when parents do not accept that children are, in fact and in action, sexual.
And when, I might add, they and other grown-ups give kids heavily anti-sexual messages. What is psychologically damaging to children is not touching their genitals, but the ridiculous, toxic insistence that for some not at all obvious reason it is terribly wrong to do so.
Absolutely, and it seems to e getting worse rather than better.
About sex shaming: “It’s getting worse.” Proof? The truth is opposite – You’ve studied history, right? Current day, very few cults teach children to hate their sexuality, and teaching them to save it for the one they marry is simply reverent towards sexual potency – when done well. AND many parents, Christian or otherwise, do this well.
Regardless, those problems you bemoan happen in parents of all social extremes, conservative and liberal. Girls raised in a strict household that treat puberty with disgust or liberal “follow your emotions” homes can both equally end up knocked up and sexually abused; and if their sexuality is what they value most they are going to suffer more. Chances are, it is, because neither or those children had good parents who respected them enough to believe said child could use their brain to draw boundaries with knowledge, and put parental boundaries in place to teach them how. Peers’ exposure in school was their “education.” BOTH social backgrounds are denied the education to know that they are worth more than their flesh (they are the sum of All their actions and parts), and the self-value to not give away their flesh so lightly in mind of statistical consequences. Neither of these homes teaches statistics about sexual proclivity, addiction, issues, STDs, birth control failure, abortion, and why abstinence is the healthiest route. One says “because God says so” and the other is afraid to restrict said ‘sexuality’ and perhaps believing the child cannot do something the parent did not. Hypocrites fear retribution.
Stats show the liberal home that says “do what you feel” are more common than such extreme conservative homes you say are increasing. Redirect your ire. Parents need to parent.
Kat, there is a lot you say that I agree with. The difference between us is not one of a huge fundamental difference in values, in my view, but rather a matter of us coming from backgrounds of different experience so we see another side of the story. You wrote:
>…and if their sexuality is what they value most they are going to suffer more.
I do not think Desmond or his parents, or anyone else, should value their sexuality above anything else. Being kind and considerate to others is vastly more important than sexual satisfaction.
However, it is unkind, and inconsiderate (not saying you: you sound like a good and sensible person) for the majority in society to systematically trash other people’s sexuality and opportunities for self-expression. That is what is happening, I suggest, when those who are freaked out by what other folks do, vent their fury in blood-curdling language, vile threats, and every oppressive technique they can think of to silence and subdue anyone they see as “different”.
>…the self-value to not give away their flesh so lightly in mind of statistical consequences.
You make your point very well because there absolutely is a downside to sexual activity in terms of STDs and so, on and you do well to think in terms of probable consequences (statistics) rather than trying to be too hard and fast.
Weighing up consequences, however, is all about benefits and well as harms. We need to look at both sides of the equation, not just one. You have focused just on the harms. For a more balanced view you might like to take a look at Judith Levine’s book Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children From Sex, which won the Los Angeles Times Book Award. See here:
University of Minnesota Press
https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/harmful-to-minors
Also, I’m not sure the concept of “giving away one’s flesh” stands up to close examination. It’s not as though anyone is left without any flesh because it has been given away.
So where does this strange concept come from? Based on history, feminist thinkers have thought this through very well in my view. Traditionally, in patriarchal societies, men have seen it as important to monopolise, if they can, access to women’s bodies, especially though control of their virginity. And virginity, once it is gone, is indeed gone forever, whereas sex in itself is the gift that keeps on giving. You can “give it away” a thousand times without loss, as long as the society in question does not have a patriarchal over-valuation of virginity.
Kat, your reply to my comment addressed something I did not actually say, so I will not attempt a reply to what you did say. In fact, I just went back and re-read your comment,and those before it, and although your comment veers close to what I was talking about, it does not address anything I said or intended to say. So, enjoy your life.
In my case, I had two sexual assaults at age 6 and 10 both by teen girls. The first one was actually two teen girls. Also, my dad exposed me to a lot of sex: masturbating in the same bed as me, having sex in the same room, watching porn in front of me, bringing over girls while I was staying with him, having sexual conversations in front of me and even talking to me about how he thought a girl at the gas station was hot.
.My dad and all of this has completely messed up my life. I am fucked up because of it. I can’t handle many sexual things now. Sex scenes send me off with an extreme fear response, as well as songs and sounds…just anything. I will most likely never not be this way. I have been torn apart over and over again.
I am demisexual/pansexual so I’m not against it, but I am on the asexual scale. But, I just panic at most sexual things.
> having sex in the same room
Classic “primal scene” trauma in Freudian shrink terms. But we know from anthropological field studies of “primitive” cultures that kids in hunter-gatherer communities routinely see adults having sex and imitate what they see with apparent enthusiasm rather than trauma. It is hardly surprising they would see things bearing in mind that living quarters had no locked doors and families would often live in one room.
So what is it exactly that you feel your dad messed up? What did he do wrong, if anything? Do you feel he had a generally uncaring attitude towards you, or what? What about the girls you describe as assaulting you? Did they coerce you into what happened? I ask because I am having trouble locating the real source of trauma here.
So right you are. This is deeply problematic on many levels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_O%27Carroll
Would you happen to be this same Tom O’Carroll?
Much of what is said is correct.
They made this bit up: “multiple convictions for offences against children”. The cited sources really are “fake news”. I made a formal complaint to the BBC, to no avail.
For my side of the story on my brushes with the law, see the section on “Crime and Punishment” here: http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography
Also here:
https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2016/03/20/a-rare-escape-without-bribery-or-bloodshed/
“Yes, it is disgusting, by definition, to those who find themselves disgusted, as you evidently do. But that is an expression of your personal feeling. It does not amount to an argument as to why others, including me, should feel the same way.”
Imagine thinking just because you personally don’t find it disgusting that that makes it ok to do. purely because you think hes hot, you should be allowed to sexualise a child because what? You personally think its ok?
This is some insanely reprehensible speech your spouting. You’re absolutely saying “It’s ok to sexualise a child because I personally don’t think its disgusting”
That’s some paedophile reasoning you’ve got there.
>Imagine thinking just because you personally don’t find it disgusting that that makes it ok to do.
That is not what I am saying at all. My feelings do not make a case for or against anything, just as yours do not. That is why, many years ago, I set out to make a case for public acceptance of children’s voluntary sexual engagement with adults based on logic and evidence in a full-length book called Paedophilia: The Radical Case. You can read and download the whole thing, free of charge, here: https://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/index.htm
I see there are many emails about my Desmond blog awaiting my attention in the Inbox this morning. I won’t have time to answer them all. Rather than trying to debate with many newcomers to these issues I think it will be best to refer everyone to my book.
I suspect the most common newcomer-type objections in the minds of those capable of presenting an argument (as opposed to the visceral “It’s disgusting!” response) will be along the lines “Children cannot consent” or “It’s all about adults’ abusing their power”. To these people I would say have a careful read of Chapter 8: ‘Consent’ and ‘Willingness’ of my book, and also the next one, Chapter 9: Power and Equality.
It’s not sick or disgusting. It’s presumptuous and controlling.
Stop sexualizing those who can’t legally consent.
>presumptuous and controlling
It’s just free expression, Anthony. Aren’t we supposed to value that in the democratic world?
As for controlling, it’s the censorious mindset that itches to limit the choices of Desmond and other unconventional kids.
this has to be fake
Hi Megan! What do you mean, exactly? Do think Desmond is fake? Or my blog about him, or what? And what about the second story, the piece about the late Richard Green, with links to obituaries published in the Guardian and the New York Times? Are those obituaries “fake news” do you think?
Your blog comes across as one of those sites which churns out articles to be shared on social media and rile up the right wing. If your intent is to make the right hate the left even more then… good job, I guess? If this article is genuine (as I suspect it is), then you clearly need to rethink a few things in your life….
>If your intent is to make the right hate the left even more then… good job, I guess?
Very good point. I do worry about being counter-productive. But it’s a real shame to suppress serious analysis of important issues on that account. Mostly, Heretic TOC readers tend to be very thoughtful people, often philosophically and scientifically minded types who are intrigued rather than freaked out by unconventional thinking, as long as it is discussed using reason and evidence.
As you will see from the blog Archive, Daniel, Heretic TOC has been around since 2012, and I have been very public on children’s rights and sexual politics since the 1970s – I am not quit as old as Methuselah but getting there! You might like to have a look at my first book, Paedophilia: The Radical Case, published in 1980: https://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/index.htm
As for rethinking, I pride myself on being open-minded. On this forum, certainly, when people make an intelligent point, as you have, I try not to be dismissive. But if I were to change my moral philosophy drastically, there would need to be some reason for that. The fact that a lot of people disagree with you is not a sufficient reason. The whole world, including the Pope and the great Catholic Church, thought Galileo was wrong when he said the earth goes around the sun, not the other way about. Didn’t mean Galileo was actually wrong, did it?
I don’t think Tom has ever purposely done that, in fact what he has done is stand his ground and try to explain his views thoroughly, even to the “right”. And he does a very good job of that.
To explain why I say this, I will add the following.
I was researching for a PhD on the nude in photographic art, a subject which fascinates me philosophically as much as it does creatively in my own photographic work. On the suggestion that some of the photographers I was looking at were paedophiles, I began researching paedophilia, and came across Tom’s book and this blog.
Now, I am not a paedophile, and I have said many things that Tom, and others, paedophile and non-paedophile alike, have disagreed with. I have never been insulted or in any other way put down for my opinions, although there has been a lot of soundly reasoned disagreement.
Did Tom change my mind about paedophilia and paedophiles? Yes, he did. I was a firmly horrified hater of paedophiles who thought they should be jailed forever, even if they didn’t touch a child. Tom, and the people here, taught me to rethink my emotional and ignorant beliefs. Do I approve of adult sexual contact now? Yes and no, because the answer to that would take thousands and thousands of words.
What I do now, if nothing else, is recognise that all paedophiles are human, and their sexual orientation is not a reason to hate them. But a full explanation of this also is far too long to include here, and I admit that I wounder if you would even bother to think through what I would say with careful thought, or would you just react with prejudice?
Thank you so much, BJ, for your generous intervention. This contributes vastly more than I could convincingly say on my own behalf.
My pleasure Tom, though I would say it is accurate rather than generous.
Peadophelia is perversion not an orientation and no children are not sexual beings they’re children. You know I’m 37 and growing up none of this stuff was around and everyone in the 80’s and 90’s managed to do ok nobody thought of children as sexual beings except for child molesters and now the world today acts like that’s normal and it’s always been a thing, but in reality it’s not. My son is 13 and my daughter is 9 and they’re both at different stages of their puberty development and neither of them are curious about exploring anything, my son is just barely beginning to be ok with hanging around girls let alone anything else. Why does society feel the need to push children to grow up? Once child hood is gone it’s gone forever and there’s no going back that’s one thing in life besides death, taxes and laundry that we can count on so why all this? Why do people feel the need to push their wants and needs on children like it’s their problem? I get that this child in the article enjoys doing drag and it’s freeing for him I get it, but to place him in a club where he is objectified and treated like a piece of meat is inappropriate and i don’t care if you agree 17, 18, 19 yrs old is one thing but not 11 that’s not ok that boy is never going to know the difference between love and lust because he’s too young to know the difference so when he gets old who knows if he’ll ever learn.
>My son is 13 and my daughter is 9 and they’re both at different stages of their puberty development and neither of them are curious about exploring anything, my son is just barely beginning to be ok with hanging around girls let alone anything else.
Don’t know about your daughter, Camille, but it’s pretty much guaranteed that your son, at 13, has sex on his mind far more than you seem to think.
There is, admittedly, a very small minority of boys who go right into adult life without much in the way of sexual feelings. Some men (and women) these days are even identifying as “asexual”. That’s fine, although, like paedophilia, it “deviates” a long way from “the norm”.
Interestingly, I have know quite a few teenagers, via teenage sons, who identified as asexual. They all were female, and they all engage in the most outrageous sexual activities now—if I am to believe their parents, who keep me up with their children’s activities.
Camille: See also response by bjmuirhead
Jun 21, 2019 09:05
This has appeared out of position for some unknown reason as the first comment today, at the top of the comments section.
Dear Tom Carroll, May you be blessed and saved by God, because if normal men ever get there hands on you I genuinely fear for you. Writing stories that idolise such behaviour puts you into a category that needs a great deal of protection from regular human beings that despise the demons within your mind, body and pen. This poor child needs to immediately be removed from such a brain-washing [dirtying] environment and brought into a loving foster family where he will be safe. For you to suggest ‘zero evidence’ clearly identifies your wilful blindness towards the criminality and the insanity of those maintaining influence over and around that poor boy.
>For you to suggest ‘zero evidence’ clearly identifies your wilful blindness…
I said “I see absolutely zero evidence that either Desmond or any other drag kids in the western world are being forced to perform.”
If you have such evidence, please direct my attention to it. I will not turn a blind eye, I promise you. That is why I asked “xtofury” this morning for information about what Desmond’s sister is supposed to have said.
According to his sister the parents are negligent AND pressuring desmond into the role. Obviously for money. And describing an 11 year old as “hot” is disgusting if you are any older than 13.
I’m gay but I view what is being done there to be highly destructive to that child’s mental health, the statistics on people growing out of a trans phase back that up as well as the communications from his sister that leaked out back it up, and the statistics on suicide and other mental disorders back it up.
Thank you, xtofury, for your contribution. You write:
>According to his sister the parents are negligent AND pressuring desmond into the role. Obviously for money.
Any such allegation should be taken seriously but I find myself somewhat sceptical based on the undisputed fact that numerous complaints have been made to the authorities that these are unfit parents, but the case has been investigated and the Administration for Child Services (ACS) has reportedly found no basis for the allegations.
What I will personally do by way of taking your point seriously is to ask if you would give us the source of your information about his sister’s views, preferably with what she was quoted as saying, or said on a voice or video recording.
>And describing an 11 year old as “hot” is disgusting if you are any older than 13.
Yes, it is disgusting, by definition, to those who find themselves disgusted, as you evidently do. But that is an expression of your personal feeling. It does not amount to an argument as to why others, including me, should feel the same way.
>I’m gay but…
Disgusting!
See what I mean? Plenty of people are disgusted by gay people who “flaunt” their sexuality by admitting it and talking about it in public as you are doing. But it doesn’t mean they are right about anything except accurately identifying their own feelings.
>I view what is being done there to be highly destructive to that child’s mental health, the statistics on people growing out of a trans phase back that up as well as the communications from his sister that leaked out back it up, and the statistics on suicide and other mental disorders back it up.
But Desmond has described himself as gay, not trans! He has no plans to grow up as a woman.
I wrote:
>But when a kid declares himself to be gay, as Desmond has…
There is a link given under “as Desmond has” to an interview in which Desmond indicates that he is gay but NOT trans. Check it out:
https://www.out.com/interviews/2017/10/11/10-year-old-drag-superstar-desmond-napoles-his-mom-talk-coming-out
As for actual trans kids, you are right that there are “desisters” as well as “persisters” but the “statistics” don’t tell us much on their own. Research stats are complicated and need careful interpretation even when applied to general public policy. The figures are of very little significance when considering the future of any particular child. The circumstances of each case needs to be taken on its merits.
One thing that the “trans” research stats can sometimes obscure is that so-called trans kids are actually gay and do not need to go through the psychologically and surgically dangerous business of transition. On that we are probably in agreement. You might like to check out my two main blogs on trans kids:
Trans kids 1: Insistent, consistent, persistent: https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2017/02/09/trans-kids-1-insistent-consistent-persistent/
Trans kids 2: The intersex brain: https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2017/02/16/trans-kids-2-the-intersex-brain/
Yes, agreed. This is sensationalist pedophilia. Children are incredibly vulnerable and he is being put in an incredibly compromising situation, being told that it’s good to be sexy to adults. It would be extremely easy for him to be molested, if he hasn’t already, and think that it’s perfectly normal.
Extremely unhealthy personal boundaries are being taught to him at a very young age.
Colourful, yes. Controversial, certainly. But sensationalist? Not really, Joy. Heretic TOC is actually quite an intellectual blog, as you will see if you check out the latest contribution, on FGM. See here:
https://tomocarroll.wordpress.com/2019/05/30/fgm-wedded-forever-to-religion/#comments
Note the quality not just of the guest blog itself but also of the many comments grounded in some pretty deep thinking on moral philosophy.
>…and think that it’s perfectly normal
Being gay was denounced as “not normal” until very recent times. Some people are still singing that tune. But normalising, or accepting, gayness, has been a very good thing, wouldn’t you say? Avoids a lot of misery for gay people. Desmond and others would likewise benefit if being a gay kid is accepted as normal.
Describing an 11 year old as ‘hot’ and approving of them flaunting themselves is tantamount to paedophilia
How closely have you looked at this site, Tawers? The point you make will not be taken as being much of a criticism by most people here. As well as reading some of the posts, I can also recommend the video ‘A Decent Life’, which you can find on the right-hand side under the blog roll.
This may be interesting to some. An academic approach to trans history; author of book interviewed.
http://notchesblog.com/2019/05/30/histories-of-the-transgender-child/
Does look interesting, as does the author interview in your link. Haven’t read it yet. In rush. Train to catch soon.
Have a good train trip!
And yes, it is quite fascinating. Wish I could afford the book.
“desperate as they are to pretend that kids have no erotic dimension, or at least none that is self-generated.”
And its way overdue to smash this myth to smithereens once and for all!
I was looking at the BBC listings the other day and I saw there was going to be a documentary with Naomi Wolf on a sexual theme including a reference to John Addington Symonds. I haven’t watched it yet. But when I tried to find it again in the listings, I couldn’t. Does anyone know what I’m talking about?
That would be this one:
Radio 3
Broadcast 22 May
Available here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p079xh7f
Censorship and sex
Arts & Ideas
Naomi Wolf discusses the criminalisation of love in her book Outrages: Sex, Censorship and the Criminalisation of Love with presenter Matthew Sweet.
Haven’t heard it yet but just about to: Wolf’s contribution starts about 3 minutes in.
Oh, it was the RADIO! I was looking at the telly. Thanks, mate.-:)
LOL! 🙂
It turned out to pretty interesting, actually. Of most interest, I think, was the discussion of convictions of boys for sodomy in England in the latter half of the nineteenth century. When Matthew Sweet challenged Wolf’s claim that these boys were executed, it felt like an extraordinarily high quality program in which the presenter had done some original academic research on a little known topic. On the negative side, however,, there was the usual determination to avoid recognizing the possibility of consensual sexual contacts between young boys and older boys or men.
There were other interesting revelations, but I’d recommend you listen to the broadcast yourselves, as it is readily available via the link provided by Tom.
Hi,
I’ve been accused of “indecent images”, and they were quite cruel in their treatment of me. Not sure I can cope with this, seeing as I am a tortured soul and that includes the sexual violence (child ritual circumcision) inflicted on me by the system (something they all condone). I’m struggling to focus on anything except for how to sleep and not wake up. Is there anyone I can talk to? The so-called “help” offered by the system is useless to me.
Please help me.
Thanks.
Jamie
I’m very sorry to hear about your current situation. You will certainly find understanding here. But I think you should also visit this site:
https://www.b4uact.org/
and particularly look at the options under the ‘For MAPS’ tab. They include a peer support group which you can ask to join and where MAPs discuss matters of mutual concern in a supportive way.
>They include a peer support group
Good idea to point this out, Stephen. Thanks!
Thank you for your reply, although I believe that site is based in the USA. I am in the UK and was hoping that I could find someone to talk to who has been in the same situation… recently. I have a secure email set up, but won’t include that here unless you approve of that. I am totally on my own with this, and I don’t feel comfortable asking the duty solicitor for advice. They’ve torn my very sad world apart, and all I can do is worry every time I hear a door open/close or people using the stairs thinking they are coming for me again. I honestly feel like living on the streets so they can’t terrorize me again. The took my computer and a bunch of other stuff. When the police force entry to your home and tell you you’re “suspected of paedophilia”…that is persecution. When they treat me like this over the alleged viewing of internet images while condoning the sexual butchery of boys, it makes me feel I am living in a twilight zone. I have a bunch of paperwork I can’t bring myself to read, so I am just trying to numb the pain with drink waiting to be traumatized again.
This is not justice.
Thanks for listening
> I don’t feel comfortable asking the duty solicitor for advice
Depending on where you live, I might be able to make a better suggestion.
For emotional support, though, which you obviously need, I wouldn’t give up on the forum in the US. Plenty of people there have been through exactly the sort of trauma you are describing.
>while condoning the sexual butchery of boys
What do you mean by this?
OK, Perhaps I will try that forum, but I feel I need help right now.
“>while condoning the sexual butchery of boys
What do you mean by this?”
Ritual circumcision of boys is genital mutilation. Philip Davies Conservative MP recently stated it’s a crime according to OATPA1861, amounting to “grievous bodily harm”, and no one can disprove his claim. Therefore, that the police ignore this blatant abuse of boys means they condone it. When you think the boys become semi-erect when being fondled with the cutting clamps while strapped to boards, then they start to cut without anesthetic, I find it hard to argue this is not sexual torture and butchery. We all understand it’s a serious crime upon girls. The proof is clear when “female genital mutilation” is entered into the GOV website resulting in 2,500 links, but use the word “male” instead, and you get zero results. It’s almost like males are not believed to possess genitalia or can physically be victims of genital mutilation.
>Philip Davies Conservative MP recently stated it’s a crime according to OATPA1861, amounting to “grievous bodily harm”, and no one can disprove his claim. Therefore, that the police ignore this blatant abuse of boys means they condone it.
It’s a strong point. Interesting it should come from a Conservative MP as Conservatives tend to be, well, conservative, supporting the status quo.
Jamie wrote to H-TOC:
>If you can advise or help me, my email is [DELETED]. I thought it OK to post that, as you can decide whether or not to publish it. I am quite scared of what’s going on.
This is just to let concerned readers know that I have written to Jamie’s email address, which I have deleted above. However, that need not stop anyone posting here again on this matter if they have anything supportive to say.
Here are some more drag kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zoWwvzI1hc
And some articles (positive and negative):
‘Drag Kids,’ Canadian Documentary About Young Drag Queens, Screens At Hot Docs
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/04/30/drag-kids-hot-docs-documentary_a_23719641/
Pre-teen “Drag Kids” highlight just how fast our culture has crumbled
https://thebridgehead.ca/2019/04/30/pre-teen-drag-kids-highlight-just-how-fast-our-culture-has-crumbled/
Thanks, Marthijn. Good to see you here!
I think some of you will find this enjoyable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct40CLTCC7A
BTW, I seem to post a lot of links involving boys. Maybe a GL on here (or a biped like me) can redress the balance. I myself will keep an eye open for girl videos.
Yes, I’d watched that WILTY episode (is WILTY the best comedy show on TV?) and found the relationship between Acaster and that boy quite interesting.
You bemoan the fact that there are too few GL links being posted. But I think we should also bemoan the fact that Tom has hitherto never touched on the the all-important issue of heterogorillagorillagorillapaedophilia.
To fill that lacuna I offer the following clip.
https://youtu.be/3I8nyYPTPa4
Do you see what I am seeing?
Or am I just a dirty-minded anthropocentric?
Interesting to compare two articles on Buzzfeed – the first supportive of preteen drag-queens, the second a hit-piece against a “right-wing…anarcho-capitalist” 14-year-old girl called ‘Soph’, who has a popular Youtube channel.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/laurenstrapagiel/desmond-is-amazing-child-drag-queen
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/youtubes-newest-far-right-foul-mouthed-red-pilling-star-is
It appears that Buzzfeed consider one act of provocation as laudable (Desmond’s) and the other as reprehensible (Soph’s).
Why?
Is it that Desmond (et al) push Buzzfeed’s identitarian/fragmentarian narrative and ideology, but Soph opposes it?
And, if Buzzfeed are going to rate the ‘offensiveness’ of these two cases, why do they rate the WORDS of an adolescent (who is less than two years from being an ‘adult’ according to certain criteria) as MORE offensive than the acts of a pre-adolescent boy who’s been coached into ACTING in ways that would be distasteful if they were acted out by a grown man or a grown woman?
I’m a (slightly) homosexual paedophile, and I don’t know about other paedophiles, but I find this kind of thing a turn-off – this is the male equivalent of the ‘toddlers-in-tiaras’ – a performance devoid of sexuality (which is why Normies and paedophobes can approve of it). Ironically I can’t ‘stomach it’ – if I’m a paedophile it’s because I like my children to be children, not caricatures of adults aping some of the worst aspect of adult sexuality.
Here’s an interview with Soph from the Alex Jones Show https://youtu.be/odmD1Td-l3s .
It makes me question the suggestion that ‘Soph’ was ‘coached’ by her parents (or other adults) – I can’t imagine how she can fake on an interview the same articulateness, lucidity and edginess that appears on her videos (but I suspect that she may be Ben Shapiro in ‘kiddy drag’ – she looks like him and talks like him!).
As we have come to expect from you, LSM, this is splendidly provocative.
Duly provoked, I will make a knee-jerk response but I might well change my mind on a few things when I’ve had time to see the Buzzfeed items.
>…a pre-adolescent boy who’s been coached into ACTING in ways that would be distasteful if they were acted out by a grown man or a grown woman?
Coached? Or permitted? Based on what I have read and seen so far, I would say the latter.
Distasteful? If one man’s (woman’s, child’s, non-binary person’s) meat is another’s poison, don’t we need a bit more than taste to go on before getting all judgemental? Your tone, here, LSM, is comically in the “Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells” genre. Quite the retired colonel these days! Is this to be explained by a case of gout? Confined to a bathchair, perhaps? Can’t be much fun! 🙂
>…this is the male equivalent of the ‘toddlers-in-tiaras’ – a performance devoid of sexuality (which is why Normies and paedophobes can approve of it)
I also find “‘toddlers-in-tiaras” to be a turn-off but, again, individual taste is not the point: chacun à son goût – or “À chacun son goût”, according to preference!
More to the point here is your analysis, and I don’t think it is correct. The American toddler pageant scene is by no means devoid of sexuality. It seems to me you are being misled in this regard by the fact that you personally find nothing sexually attractive in it. Neither do I, because the implied sexuality is all of an adult nature: it is about tiny kids trying to look like adults. This comes across to both of us, I suspect, as rather absurd and grotesque.
However, from the parents’ point of view these performances are very much about sexual learning. It is no accident that the adults who are keen on these shows tend to be very conservative. A high priority for them is for their kids to learn traditional gender roles – and that includes teaching their little girls to place a high value on “glamour” and sexual allure. They would be horrified by the thought that they are teaching their girls to be “anybody’s” or “whores”, but that is not the idea: being alluring, in their view, is the traditional female quality, whereas being available is another matter entirely.
As I said in an earlier post, I find these pageants objectionable when they become a vehicle for pushy parents to become overly competitive through their children, like the worst kind of parental sports coaches. They are also objectionable to the extent that they seek to entrench outdated gender roles. The fact that some of us find them distasteful is only relevant to the extent that our distaste stands as a proxy for points of (moral) objection.
The opposite reactions by Buzzfeed to the two cases is understandable:
– A pre-teen drag queen attacks only stereotypes about gender and childhood, his performance mocks only pre-conceived opinions, but does not insult people.
– This ‘Soph’ insults and mocks people on the basis of their creed, sexual orientation, etc.
Hate is present when you insult people for what they are, while in mocking social principles there is no hate.
BTW, LSM seems to have changed not only his opinions, but also his attractions, from GL to “(slightly) homosexual paedophile”.
Why is it fine to attack, criticise and mock people’s fundamental beliefs about gender roles and the nature of childhood, but not fine to attack, criticise and mock their fundamental beliefs about sexual roles and the supernatural?
Shouldn’t anything and everything be open to criticism? Isn’t that a sine qua non of being a Radical Paedophile?
But I do not question the RIGHT of Desmond (or his parent’s) to question gender roles – I just think that their ‘answers’ are misguided, and that the parents are wrong to use their son’s sexuality and gender identity for their own ideological ends.
I believe children’s sexuality is a private realm, and that adults intrude in it as GUESTS of the child. Child sexuality should essentially be ‘playful’ – that is non-committal, exploratory, spontaneous, disinterested, changeable, consequence-free, exploratory and free. If we are lucky enough for a child to invite us to participate in their sexuality we must be careful to do it on the child’s terms, to keep it as ‘play’.
I suspect that none of these these qualities is applicable to Desmond’s case.
Moreover I have nowhere expressed ‘hate’ towards Desmond, his parents or even the ideology he is being made to represent. It is sinister that what was merely ‘criticism’ should be so readily elevated to the status of ‘hate’.
>”BTW, LSM seems to have changed not only his opinions, but also his attractions, from GL to “(slightly) homosexual paedophile”.”
I have never made a secret of also being attracted to little boys.
As to me ‘changing my opinions’ – could you be a bit more concrete on this?
I’ve nothing against people changing their opinions, on the contrary – it’s a natural consequence of ‘learning’ and of being intellectually honest and curious and open to new facts and ideas – but I’m not aware of having expressed anything in my comment that represents a change of opinion.
If you could identify the opinion-change you have detected in my comment and post me a ‘before’ and ‘after’ quote – I would be very happy to confirm, clarify or refute the alleged change.
>[Desmond’s] parents are wrong to use their son’s sexuality and gender identity for their own ideological ends.
Do we actually know what their “ideological ends” are, or even if they have any? In the absence of any indications that they are deliberately pushing an agenda this seems an ungenerous interpretation of their role. BTW, Desmond identifies as male, and not trans. Are you saying he should not be allowed to tell people he is gay?
>”Desmond identifies as male, and not trans. Are you saying he should not be allowed to tell people he is gay?”
Yes, he should be allowed to tell people he is gay.
>”Do we actually know what their “ideological ends” ”
Can we ‘know’ anything?
I’m not saying that the parents are CYNICALLY promoting ideological ends. I don’t doubt that they are well-intentioned…
Let me put it this way – their actions are profoundly informed by a particular ideological stance, and their commitment to that ideological stance has led them to act in ways that, I suggest, are indulgent, excessive and unwise – it’s one thing to encourage your child to take the limelight because he or she is exceptionally gifted (at, say, playing an instrument), it’s another thing to allow your child to take the limelight because he embodies your ideology spectacularly well.
I wonder…has he got a sister? And if she had wanted to dress up the same way as Desmond and parade on stage with half-naked men – would they have been happy with that?
I wonder…if Desmond had been heterosexual and a very masculine child – do you think the parents would have encouraged/allowed him to become a poster-child for, say, the NRA? or for MMA (mixed martial arts)?
Of course, we don’t know the answers to these questions, but I think we can make pretty accurate guesses.
And ask ourselves what that tells us about the parents’ probable ideological biases.
>Of course, we don’t know the answers to these questions, but I think we can make pretty accurate guesses.
On what basis do you think any such guesses would be accurate? Seems to me you were right with the first part: we just don’t know.
Liberal parents could be dismayed to find themselves with a rebellious teen on their hands who supports the NRA, for sure. But their liberality might well extend to being proud and supportive of a very masculine boy who is into martial arts. My guess (not necessarily more accurate than yours) is that parents liberal enough to be proud of a drag-loving boy would in general also be proud of one who is good at judo and many other martial arts; but they would probably draw the line at encouraging MMA, which I gather has a very different ethos to traditional martial arts as taught these days.
Does Demond’s mom, and various news sources, like Buzzfeed, then hate conservatives and pedophiles?
Soph is a longtime social critic, who has made apt observations on the
conditions for American kids for years and, on occasion, slightly mocked the Holy cows of the censorious and Indentitarian “Left”. Assuming our goal was freedom for
all kids, should we not be supportive of kids thinking for themselves and using whatever sliver of free speech and access to information still available to them?
The difference is that BuzzFeed and the rest of the MSM don’t actually care about children. In the Desmond video they don’t even see a little boy vamping it up, let alone stop to consider whether that might be a good thing or a bad thing. All they see is a pawn in their great gay rights game. And similarly with the little girl. All they care about is that she’s contradicting their message, so she must be vilified and demeaned.
The denial of sexuality already begins with the trivialization of the concept of a child. The idea of an asexual child is idealized and then the concept of a child is trivialized to include adolescents.
The WHO defines as children only those who are less than 10 years old. From the age of 10 the person is adolescent, not child.
Americans are calling people of 17 (or more) “children”, except at the time of punishment, there they want to give even the death penalty to young people.
No one sexualizes anyone. Sexualization is natural for the human being to be a sexual being.
> in attempting to bring paedophilia in from the cold.
Did Green not claim adult-child sex involves harm – which he denied for the homosexuality he and, by mob rule, the APA supported? I also see no indication he’d take issue with the conviction of pedophiles for (alleged) child/adult sex.
Did he ever go on record as supportive of even a minimal case of pedophile rights – a pedophile bringing happiness (of her choice) to an Alice in reality, rather than merely in an imagined Wonderland?
Richard’s support for paedophiles was understandably more guarded than his support for homosexuals. After all, the taboo is so strong that he could quickly have been felled had he led with his chin. I don’t see any point in attacking him, though, when we know he definitely has a good record along the lines I wrote about in my blog (plus there was more I didn’t have time for) and I don’t have any information against him along the lines you are suggesting.
I was away for most of yesterday and unfortunately did not have time to respond to your other posts. These have become rather fragmented so I will try to deal with them all here, in this one reply.
The political critique you offered appeared to be based on the idea that the Left these days is “tribal”, going in for identity politics. You say, “A Left worth defending would not demonize heterosexuals in order to defend homosexuals.”
I couldn’t agree more.
You also said:
>Assuming you did care about the GENERAL case, as opposed to the special case(s), criticism of the dual standard would be an excellent start.
Yes, I am against double standards.
As I have just indicated, I am very much against identity politics. I totally agree that we need principled standards that apply to all. I am surprised that you, Nada, as a long-time follower of this blog, would be in any doubt about this. You would certainly be in no doubt if you had ever read my book Paedophilia: The Radical Case. To be specific, you say:
> Are you opposed to drag kids being held to the same standard as kids in GENERAL?
Bearing in mind that kids have to get parental and other permissions for their performances, it is more a matter of the adults in their lives being held to whatever standard is set.
But I agree with you. I am not against a single standard. I would like to see the freedom drag kids have been accorded extended to all kids. In other words, my emphasis is on greater freedom all round, rather than calling out “enemy tribes” for breeches of restrictive, unhelpful, body-negative “standards”.
As for Bayes’ Theorem, by all means say what you meant in more detail. Bayes is often misunderstood so this would need a careful separate discussion.
Regarding Green, I based my statement on own your blog, reviews of therelevant paper and my recollection of it. I read both it and the radical case years ago – why assume otherwise?
My doubt, as you call it, is due to the consistent framing of the relevant issues. Attempts at a consistent standard are considered attacks, be it onGreen, drag-kids or non-heterosexuals etc. With an emphasis on freedom for all, why celebrate the dual standard, according freedom to the select few while leaving the vast majority, both adults and children, in the cold with even less freedom than before?
It was Tarzan films with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Weissmuller
“from an an audience apparently wild with excitement”…..For a moment I thought you were talking about the Bacha bazi boys from Afghanistan!
But we know that stuff is not consensual.
>But we know that stuff is not consensual.
Do we know that, really?
Sure, I can imagine Afghan warlords ordering up boys on command. Same with a lot of hard-bitten warriors who wouldn’t give a fig about consent. But is that the whole story? I don’t really know. Maybe others here do, but what good evidence do we have?
>But we know that stuff is not consensual.
Do we? None of it?
Sorry, Stephen, your response came in while I was penning mine so I didn’t see it. Anyway, no harm in us both making the point.
Sure some may have consensual relations. Suppose I was making assumptions based on that I have read. I concede that any BBC report would have the usual CSA mantra. From what I read, they line up to watch these dancing boys, take their pick. Another documentary I saw showed a guy just calling in on a family and offering to ‘mentor’ their son. They will get him back in ten years or something. From our perspective, that sounds like paradise; but consensual, all I will say is, there is probably a mixed bag. But just like the boarding schools of old (I was in one) when power is top down, some will abuse that power.
Not at all the blog post I expected, given the earlier hint. Desmond came to my attention by way of Steve Diamond, so the case is not new to me.
The only thing amazing is the hypocrisy.
Girls have done some of what Desmond did, with vastly different consequences for themselves and their families.
Thylane Blondeu, like Desmond, posed for Vogue, but she was “sexualized” and bullied.[1][2]
The families of some dancing girls went on Good Morning America. Strangely enough, scantily clad girls dancing their little hearts out weren’t worthy of praise, unlike Desmond. [1]
Girls models, with very tame poses compared to Desmond, were misrepresented and shamed by Oprah.[3]
Some years later, there were legal changes, resulting in men being sent to prison for admiring little girl models, a fate which also befell fathers/photographers of some of the models. The girls, now old women, are still fighting to set the record straight, their exploitation was at the hands of the state.[4]
These days, even mild videos of girls are removed from Youtube and comments are disabled on ordinary videos of kids. Desmond’s stripping, however, is untouched by the Google overlords.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_MindBodyResource/10-year-models-grown-high-fashion-high-risk/story?id=14221160
[2]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/thylane-blondeau-10-year-old-model_n_918066.html
[3] https://www.salon.com/2006/04/19/barely_legal/
[4] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15977010/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/feds-crack-down-teen-preteen-model-sites/
>Girls have done some of what Desmond did, with vastly different consequences for themselves and their families.
Very good point, but why not argue in favour of freedom for girls as well as boys, and for non-binary/trans youth as well, rather than going down the divisive, hence self-defeating, route of attacking non-heterosexuality? Correct me if I am wrong, but that seemed to be the implication of your earlier post today.
Incidentally, I think I can now see why you are drawing on Bayes, but I think it needs spelling out.
Is “divisive” quite the right word? Desmond can get away with it because he’s sheltering under the giant rainbow (exceptionally well funded) LGBT umbrella. And of course being “trans” is even more woke than being gay. But straights don’t have that protection.
>Is “divisive” quite the right word?
Isn’t it divisive when GLs denounce BL attraction and vice versa? Not saying that has been explicit so far in the present discussion, which has been focused on youth sexuality rather than adult attraction to the young, but it is sometimes an undercurrent here.
>Desmond can get away with it because he’s sheltering under the giant rainbow (exceptionally well funded) LGBT umbrella.
Yes, and wouldn’t it be great if girls could “get away with it” as well? Rather than begrudging the freedom accorded to Desmond and other drag kids (including a few girls, BTW), wouldn’t it be better to speak up for girls to have just as much freedom? They too should feel free to be sexy, and allowed to express themselves through what they wear, without demeaning comments or denial of their agency via claims that they have been “sexualised” by others.
It is worth noting, actually, that retailers are often accused of “sexualising” kids, especially little girls, by selling such items as thongs and other sexy lingerie in kids’ sizes. Bikinis with padded bras have also come under attack.
But why do they do this? It’s not Primark or whoever are hell bent on making little girls look sexy. They just want to make money. They are simply responding to the well-known fact that kids love to look grown-up. The retailers know (not least, I am sure, from nagging by their own kids) what youngsters want to wear. Most often, especially with very little kids, there will be no sexual motive for their choice. But as they get older the motivation will often become more mixed.
>Rather than begrudging the freedom accorded to Desmond and other drag kids
Assuming you did care about the GENERAL case, as opposed to the special case(s), criticism of the dual standard would be an excellent start.
Are you opposed to drag kids being held to the same standard as kids in GENERAL?
The mentioned cases were the ones that made the news, even on an international scale. With the possible exception of BLs being hit by the stricter CP laws later, I’m not aware of analogous cases involving boys, and I welcome such input.
I find myself very confused as to how you construct my two comments, the essence of which is a plea for consistent treatment, regardless of sex etc, as an attack on non-heterosexuals?! Would you mind spelling it out?
While I don’t think the general conclusion is wrong (and I’ll discuss it later in this comment), I do think some of the impressions you gave are perhaps limited in scope.
The argument that drag is inherently sexual isn’t incorrect, but as someone super into the drag scene and also a youthlover, I think that the cries of “it’s sexual!” vs. “it’s exploring gender!” are a false dichotomy. To me, drag is a way to explore one’s being; it is to put on a mask (and wig) and play with sexuality, gender, and personality. It is a form of art (I suppose you could call it performance art) where one’s body is the canvas, a form of art which often ties up with ideas about sexuality, sex, gender, identity, and even humanity. Famous drag queen RuPaul has described drag as a “very, very political” act because it “challenges the status quo” by rejecting fixed identities: “drag says ‘I’m a shapeshifter, I do whatever the hell I want at any given time’.”
Also, the idea that children (and potentially adults) only have an interest in cross-dressing and playing dress-up if it’s either a) sexual or b) a sign of being trans is in my eyes completely false. Being trans is not the same as having fun putting on make-up and outfits – which is something that someone of any gender can find pleasure in doing. Exploring gender, and especially gendered states of being, does not 100% correlate with feeling like you are not the gender you were born as. Because of the stigmatization of male effeminacy, drag has traditionally been a safe haven for men with the desire to perform femininity and as an assertion of gay existence. There are, in fact, straight cis men who do drag but who don’t derive any sexual pleasure from it. There are trans women who have first played with their femininity (and thus their gender) through drag; there are trans men who say “fuck it” to the gender binary and continue to be femme and fabulous by wearing drag. There are cis women who use drag as a way to explore and reclaim their femininity and sexuality through exaggeration and good-spirited fun.
In addition, there’s plenty of drag which goes beyond looking “fishy” (aka lady-like); just take a look at some of the “drag supermonsters” on The Boulet Brothers Dragula to see that drag goes beyond just playing with gender and into the realm of the theatrical.
So no, there’s nothing wrong with much of what you said about drag. Sex and sexuality is often used either for sex’s sake or to explore gender performativity and contest heteronormativity. But I did want to point out to others that drag can be a multi-layered, complex endeavor, especially when you add in the existence of drag kings. If anybody wants to read up on drag queens and their relationship with gender and sexuality, Rupp and Taylor have done a few studies into the subject which give plenty of space for the queens themselves to talk.
So onto the actual argument at hand. I think what we’re seeing is that theory and reality are colliding in a way that many in the LGBT community were not ready to handle. Many (but not all) agree that youth have a sexuality; many are even aware of the fact that this sexuality can manifest itself in ways that are sexual or sensual. However, I think they believe that this sexuality should only manifest when a youth is by themselves, and sometimes when they’re with another youth. In other words, they can talk the talk but cannot walk the walk and accept the ways that youth sexuality is displayed.
It also seems to be a defensive measure. Many queer people in the 70s and into the 80s began to mount a more complete theory as well as foster debate and discussion of youth sexuality, but this unfortunately never became a cornerstone of queer theory that persists to this day. Instead, the left’s almost total silence on the issue cedes power and authority to the right-wing sexual agenda which runs on emotion and moralism. When the right-wing screams about homosexual molesters and “recruiters,” it’s easy for the left to point to statistics concerning the heterosexuality of the majority of child molesters. However, a topic such as drag kids has no statistics, no fast-and-easy facts to point to. Thus, the left is put on the defensive and has to respond with something easily understandable and which cannot be argued with. I think there is plenty of good work (both scholarly and not) done by the queer community when it comes to the topic of youth sexuality, but such work is not openly spoken about or celebrated, which is a shame.
I also wonder if, similar to the splitting of the queer and pedo community, the silence on the topic of youth sexuality has to do with the better support and community that queer youth now have. It’s not perfect, of course, but there exist many more GSAs and organizations like PFLAG where queer youth can find help and meet other gay youth – which means that there is less urgency in understanding youth sexuality and especially queer youth sexuality. Many older works about youth sexuality discuss how the author languished in their sexuality during youth because support for queer youth was next to nonexistent, and it was dangerous to attempt to be openly queer or find other queer youth, so the author now wishes to speak of their experiences and the feelings they couldn’t express at the time. That’s what you would hear a lot, is that queer youth got involved with queer adults because those were the only openly queer people they could find. Or perhaps I’m just completely wrong.
Great post, Peace! Thanks for making the effort.
Just a few points:
>Famous drag queen RuPaul has described drag as a “very, very political” act because it “challenges the status quo” by rejecting fixed identities
I agree, as I do in general with your post. My objection is to those who back off from the political implications when challenged, notably when the claim is made that there is no sexual element.
>the left’s almost total silence on the issue [of youth sexuality] cedes power and authority to the right-wing sexual agenda which runs on emotion and moralism.
Exactly. Those who “back off”, as per my comment above, are in effect contributing to the unhelpful silence.
>I think there is plenty of good work (both scholarly and not) done by the queer community when it comes to the topic of youth sexuality, but such work is not openly spoken about or celebrated, which is a shame.
Why is it not spoken about or celebrated? Perhaps because the very concept of queerness is so slippery and elusive that it’s hard to speak of or celebrate in ways that anyone finds meaningful. Scholarly discussion of queerness is notoriously obscure: nobody really knows what anybody is on about, so it all just sounds intellectually pretentious and inconsequential.
That is what happens, unfortunately, when a project is all about resisting definition and refusal to be tied down to clear ideas. The queer project knows how to challenge dubious concepts such as false binaries; but without a strong conceptual framework of its own it has nothing creative to say, or not verbally at least. It is thus incapable of developing a programme and a political voice.
>there exist many more GSAs and organizations like PFLAG where queer youth can find help and meet other gay youth
For the benefit of those unfamiliar with these concepts of American origin:
GSA = Gay-Straight Alliance
PFLAG = Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay%E2%80%93straight_alliance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLAG
These developments are surely very helpful but I suspect they are used in order to police and propagandise for age segregation in sexual relationships.
>Instead, the left’s almost total silence on the issue cedes power and authority to the right-wing sexual agenda which runs on emotion and moralism.
Wouldn’t the Left’s virtual surrender to feminism and shallow identity explain the observation better? When feminists scream of “exploitation” or “sexualization” of girls, much less “molestation/rape”, does Leftists even dare to question their “logic” anymore?
As for homosexual molesters, should a Leftie suddenly redefine molestation and ignore statements from homosexual men about having sex with men as boys, to say nothing of Bayes’ Theorem?
>As for homosexual molesters, should a Leftie suddenly redefine molestation and ignore statements from homosexual men about having sex with men as boys, to say nothing of Bayes’ Theorem?
Not sure what you mean by this, especially as regards Bayes’ Theorem: how is Bayes relevant? Please expand.
From Peace’s claim, if having sex with a girl makes a man a heterosexual child molester, would he still be considered heterosexual if it had been a boy?
There are studies, as well as personal accounts, from homosexuals describing their early sexual experiences, as boys, having sex with men. (You have mentioned some on this very blog)
Given such information, I’d expect an intellectually honest and consistent Leftie to consider the conditional probability. Hence, the mention of Bayes’.
I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not giving a personal opinion, but discussing the fact that the Right’s claim of “homosexuals recruiting boys” or “homosexuals are more likely to be child molesters” tends to be met with the Left’s reasoning that since most CSA is man-on-girl, CSA is therefore not a “homosexual problem.” This makes it very easy for the Left to deal with discussions in which the main argument is that child molestation is a homosexual phenomenon. What’s harder for the Left are discussions surrounding less clear-cut topics such as child sexuality in general and personal experiences with intergenerational relationships, since these don’t have a single, easy fact or statistic to rely on. Because the Left and related movements (queer, anarchism, etc.) never mounted a successful defense or theory regarding child sexuality in general (and intergen relations in particular), it’s much easier for the Right to use moralistic and emotional speech to make their point and convince people to agree with their position.
Oh, I understood the relevant part. The “defense” is tribal, based on indentity politics – there’s no reasoning involved in redefining molestation or raping logic. Feminist “reasoning”, its use of moralistic and emotional speech, is integral to this process.
A Left worth defending would not demonize heterosexuals in order to defend homosexuals. For the “Left” you describe, it would be impossible to extend the freedom they defend for the few, like homosexuals, to MAPs and minors in general.
Sad to hear about Green, yet another one of the “good guys” that passed away in the recent years (John Money, Preben Hertoft, Thomas Szasz, Robin Sharpe…). And that means, unfortunately, that the sexology world is being even more taken over by all these wimps with a fixation on plethysmographs, and whose main scientific concern is whether people will “offend” or not. Let’s at least hope that Rind & co. will live a long and fruitful life, so that the wimps will be constantly reminded of the difference between scientists and mountebanks.
>Let’s at least hope that Rind & co. will live a long and fruitful life, so that the wimps will be constantly reminded of the difference between scientists and mountebanks.
Yes, I hope so too, of course. As for John Money, whom you mention, he was one of “three kings” of sexology singled out by Richard in his memoir as particularly significant for the development of his own career.