Which is to be master – that's all

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – that’s all.”

Grumpy Mr Dumpty was right, unfortunately. Take the word “paedophilia”. All the queen’s horses and all the queen’s men couldn’t put it back together again in its earlier queen’s English usage as a relatively objective medical term for sexual attraction to children. Admittedly, the man who first used the term paedophilia erotica*, Richard von Krafft-Ebing, was blatantly moralistic in denouncing the “unmanly, knavish and often silly” expression of such feelings; but a century or so would pass before we learned which was to be the master meaning, and who would make it so, when tabloid interpretation brutally bound the word hand and foot to sadism and murder, ruthlessly gagging gentler understandings, choking them off.
So, when I heard Andrew Marr presenting BBC Radio 4’s Start the Week discussion on Lewis Carroll and the Story of Alice on Monday, I was not surprised to hear him say that Alice in Wonderland and its later companion volume Through the Looking-Glass (from whence comes the Humpty Dumpty passage above) are “meant to be playful and to make you laugh, which is one of the answers to the whole paedophilia worry: something so playful, so funny, is unlikely to be that sinister”.
Paedophilia in this construction is sinister. The logic then proceeds thus: playfulness is not sinister; Carroll is playful; therefore Carroll is not sinister – and cannot be a paedophile. I have cheated a bit: Marr said the sinister side was unlikely rather than impossible, but it is clear he wants to exonerate Carroll from the more defamatory connotations of the P word.
Quite right too.
Not that Marr or his guests were in denial over Carroll’s sexual attraction to little girls, in what turned out to be a rather good programme to mark the 150th anniversary of Alice in Wonderland’s publication in 1865. Gillian Beer, who has edited Carroll’s nonsense poems and will be bringing out a volume on the Alice books later this year, spoke with exquisitely tactful precision. Speaking with Alice Liddell in mind, the real little girl who inspired the wonderland books, she said:
“I think that the figure of Alice in Alice in Wonderland is a part answer to any suggestion of damage to the children… she is so appreciated as a lively, imaginative curious, independent young girl and she is treated with such respect, as it were, by the book; yes, she is teased, yes, she is worsted, but she is absolutely…
Marr interrupts: “But she isn’t objectified?”
…no, never. It’s always told, indeed, from within her, so that it’s her sensibility we’re sharing, and it’s her sense of terror, sometimes that is informing everything we read there.”
Beer is in effect confirming points raised elsewhere in the programme: Carroll was in love with Alice and probably got into trouble with her mother for being overly affectionate towards the child; but this essentially paedophilic behaviour was not a source of damage.
Robert Douglas-Fairhurst, whose book The Story of Alice: Lewis Carroll and the Secret History of Wonderland has just been published, was also a Marr guest. His book, one reviewer notes, draws attention to Carroll’s having written “A girl of about 12 is my ideal beauty of form.” Also, asked if children ever bored him, he replied: “They are three-fourths of my life.”
Carroll, whose real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, was an Oxford mathematics don. The picture that emerges from Douglas-Fairhurst’s book, according to a review in the Observer, is that he photographed Alice Liddell “obsessively” and was “evidently in love” with her. Alice was born in 1852. Already, from 1858 to 1862, “Dodgson’s peculiar intimacy with Miss Liddell had become the subject of intense Oxford gossip, with suggestions that the strange young Christ Church don had even proposed marriage and been rebuffed by the girl’s parents”.
The marriage proposal sounds like the Victorians’ idea of a joke; but the mere fact that there was intense gossip about the relationship refutes the modern deniers’ claim that Dodgson’s “sentimental” or “paternal” attachment to Alice was considered unremarkable in its day. Most Victorian gentlemen did not hang out with prepubescent girls; nor did they – as Dodgson did – remain lifelong bachelors. There were other girls, too, who at various times in his life occupied a special place in Mr Dodgson’s affections, to whom he wrote copious letters and whom he photographed extensively, sometimes in nude poses – photos which, as Marr’s programme noted, could not be used in Douglas-Fairhurst’s book for fear they might now fall foul of the law.
The letters, the photos and much else have long been the subject of biographic attention, perhaps most assiduously in the case of Morton N. Cohen’s 1995 book Lewis Carroll: A Biography. In an essay for the Times Literary Supplement in 2004 (“When love was young”, TLS, 10 September 2004) Cohen took issue with a “revisionist” voice, that of Karoline Leach, one of a growing band of writers who seek to rescue the author of Alice from the taint of paedophilia by contriving desperately improbable alternative narratives. Dodgson was no dodgy don, she insists: he was in love not with Alice but with her governess, a Miss Mary Prickett.
I will not waste time on this absurdity, except to say that Cohen’s demolition is strong.
His critique of Edward Wakeling, a far more substantial Dodgson scholar, is also devastating in my view. Wakeling, a Dodgson devotee for decades and a past Chairman of the Lewis Carroll Society, certainly knows his stuff and indeed has presented a lot of it on a website, including a database of the great man’s surviving letters and photos. I am assured by a Lewis Carroll Society insider who knows Wakeling personally that he is privately willing to admit Dodgson’s interest in girls had its erotic side. But it seems he feels duty-bound to protect the man’s reputation in public. As with Marr and his guests, that is a good thing if one wishes to insist upon him having been kind and considerate, rather than callously abusive; but, in Cohen’s opinion and mine, he goes much too far in trying to explain inconvenient facts away when these have a direct bearing on Dodgson’s sexual desires and even his behaviour.
In the same TLS article in which he took Leach apart, Cohen also tackled Wakeling. As the editor at that time of the latest and fullest version of Dodgson’s diaries, Wakeling had suggested that Dodgson’s interest in girls had been merely paternal. If so, why was there a falling out between the Liddell family and Dodgson in June 1863? Pages from his diary for this period, which might have explained the matter, were cut out and never recovered. Wakeling plays the rift down as unimportant, saying it lasted only “a few weeks”; but Cohen shows this “few weeks” lasted from 27 June to 19 December, almost half a year (25 weeks) when Dodgson was unable to see his beloved Alice, or her sisters.
Cohen also points out that in addition to this blatant minimisation, Wakeling ignored an important letter that Lorina, Alice’s older sister, sent to Alice in 1930 when they were both elderly. Lorina was reporting a meeting with an early Dodgson biographer, Florence Becker Lennon. Lorina wrote:

“I said his manner became too affectionate to you as you grew older and that mother spoke to him about it, and that offended him so he ceased coming to visit us again – as one had to find some reason for all intercourse ceasing…Mr D. used to take you on his knee…I did not say that.”

By this time Alice would have been 11. Girls typically did not reach menarche in those days until around 14 to 17 – much later than now. So in all probability she was still physically very much a child. On the other hand, the age of consent in those days was 12. Small wonder Mrs Liddell was vigilant, given that Alice, child or not, would soon be “legal”! Having said this, though, it may be that the rift was caused by Mrs Liddell finding out that Dodgson was becoming too close to Lorina as well, an intimacy we shall see hinted at below.
However that may be, Cohen’s revelations have done little to stem the public demand for an innocent Dodgson, along with our ever more strident insistence upon childhood innocence. And Wakeling has proved ever the man to supply that demand in a plausible, but to my mind deliberately misleading, manner. For the 150th anniversary, he has come up with a book called Lewis Carroll: The Man and His Circle, which looks at the writer through his social circle, which included royalty, musicians, publishers and artists. Yes, as he points out, Dodgson was a sophisticated character at ease in adult company; he was not an oddball loner, as some have suggested, who could relate only to children.
But so what? Wakeling implies that such sophistication was incompatible with paedophilia, which is simply false. It wouldn’t play too well as an excuse in a modern criminal court, would it?
“It is true, Your Honour, that images of children depicted in, ahem, somewhat carnal disport, were found on my client’s computer; but he also did a lot of excellent still life photography, fruit arranged in bowls, that sort of thing. Clearly, he is a cultured individual whose motives are artistic, not prurient…”
As for Wakeling’s elaborate charts of Dodgson’s letters and photographs, they appear designed to downplay the child theme by generating a bigger context: there were a vast number of letters to adults (albeit many to parents of his child friends) as well as to children; around 60% of his known photos of individuals were of children, but that still leaves a chunky 40% that were of adult subjects, and he did landscapes, etc., as well. What this ignores is the missing diary pages (whole volumes of his diaries are missing too), plus Dodgson’s letters to Alice Liddell, burnt by her mother, and a great many letters and photos destroyed or lost (only about 1,000 photos remain out of 3,000 he is known to have taken), probably by Dodgson’s heirs and possibly even by an early biographer: an obvious reason for disposing of such material would have been its embarrassing or even incriminating nature.
Wakeling’s technique seems to be to throw up a smoke screen of genuinely well researched scholarly detail in the hope that readers will be too impressed to notice its irrelevance. If Dodgson were on trial today over his “indecent” photos, Wakeling’s style of defence would cut no ice with the judge, as noted above; the jury wouldn’t buy it either.
But his actual jury is far more generous: his jurors are all the Alice fans out there, millions of them around the globe, many of them desperate to believe in Dodgson’s innocence and keen to read books in which it is asserted. I found myself among a hundred or more last week when Wakeling spoke to the Oxford Literary Festival about his new book, along with Vanessa Tait, grand daughter of Alice Liddell, no less, who was talking about her forthcoming Alice-themed novel The Looking-Glass House.
The event was held in the 15th century Divinity School beneath Oxford University’s ancient Bodleian Library, a magnificently ornate and august setting right in the very heart of Dodgson City, as it were. Not wanting to be run out of town by angry Carolingians (the noun being from Charles Dodgson, not from Lewis Carroll), I thought it best not to be too blunt when I asked a question from the floor. With an air of perhaps not entirely convincing innocence, I mildly pointed out that Dodgson had once written ”I’m fond of children (except boys)”. Would the speakers care to comment?
Up to that point I sensed a certain anxiety on the platform. Presenter Alastair Niven, a literary critic, invited questions afterwards from anyone who might “dare” to ask them. When I asked mine, Wakeling’s eyes positively sparkled with what may have been delight but I suspect it was relief, along the lines, “Oh, good, I can handle this one without things getting nasty”.
His answer was blandly reassuring: just Dodgson’s dry humour; friendly towards boys too; took about 100 photos of them; boys were usually at school when he went calling; girls in those days stayed at home, so he saw more of them. Ergo, Dodgson not dodgy. Simple!
But Vanessa Tait, who distinctly resembles her famous forebear Alice Liddell, was by no means as simplistic in her own response, and turned out to be distinctly at odds with Wakeling when someone asked what the pair of them thought of the BBC’s 150th anniversary documentary, aired in January and titled The Secret World of Lewis Carroll. Whereas Wakeling professed himself outraged by the programme, Tait seemed quite happy with it.
Presented by current affairs broadcaster Martha Kearney, the documentary was to a great extent a fan piece, actually. As a child, Kearney tells us, she took the role of Alice in a stage production of Alice Through the Looking-Glass in the village where she grew up. She loved the Alice books at that time and has been a Carroll devotee ever since.
Unlike Wakeling, though, she seemed keen to explore the truth about Dodgson’s desires. For her, this turned out to mean confronting a photo she said no respectable Victorian mother would have approved of. A nude photo of a little girl might have been acceptable in those days, but not one of a sexually maturing 14-year-old. Just such a photo, labelled “Lorina Liddell” on the back and attributed to “L. Carroll”, was discovered by the programme makers in a museum in far-off Marseilles. The overall conclusion, drawing on experts in photography and face identification, was that it was probably authentic.
Wakeling, who had long known about this photo, was having none of it. The experts’ opinions proved nothing, he insisted. His ire, though, was chiefly directed at the programme makers for failing to ask his own opinion, as though that would have settled the matter! However, when he had the opportunity in Oxford to do just that, he said nothing that I found even remotely persuasive. He did not even mention the inscription, much less refute its authenticity! His silence on this crucial evidence suggested to me he had nothing meaningful to say about the meaning of this photograph. All we learned was that he gets rather cross when anyone disputes his self-proclaimed magisterial authority!
A bit like Humpty Dumpty in fact: the photo means just what he chooses it to mean – neither more nor less. It’s all about which – or who – is to be the master.
*In the first version of this blog I wrongly said he introduced the term in 1886. That was when the first edition of his book Psychopathia Sexualis appeared. However, the term paedophilia erotica did not appear until the 12th edition, in 1912. I should have remembered my blog of 15 November last year in which this was mentioned. The term was included in the “Psychopathological Cases” section of Chapter Five, on sexual crimes. Oops, still not right! As Filip has kindly pointed out, in the comments below, there appears to have been at least a very brief mention of the term in the 10th edition, published in 1898.
PROUD TO BE A PAEDOPHILE
The GlobalPost, an online news outfit based in Boston, Mass., but not owned by the Boston Globe newspaper group, ran two big articles last month arising from the “sex abuse crisis” in Britain. They were filed by Corinne Purtill, an American reporter who is GlobalPost’s correspondent based in London. The more general article of the two adopts an uncritical approach, in which the events in Britain are viewed as a real crisis over actual “abuse”, rather than a moral panic over alleged abuse.
The other article is based on a phone interview with me. My initial response was that it is as bad as the general piece, mainly because it quotes me out of context: what I said was backed up by references to research, such as the work of Rind, Clancy and others; but these supporting authorities are deleted, so I probably come across as an obsessive crank. However, a number of other people have said they thought this article was quite good.
You can see for yourself, and make up your own mind:
The child sex abuse scandals engulfing Britain“:
And:
This man is a pedophile, and proud of it

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sean

only just got to read this entry. very good! I’m much interested in, even inspired by Dodgeson’s paedophilia. I think I have much in common with him. I only wish i’d had an opportunity to make nudes of some of my own lgf’s over the years 😀

[…] Charles Lutwidge Dodgson).  On his website, Tom O’Carroll offers a very interesting text:  “Which is to be master – that’s all”.  It looks at how Lewis Carroll is positioned today, and yes some see him as a pedophile; some do […]

[…] Which is to be master – that’s all […]

Linca

It looks like I need to read the entirety of the comments to this post. In the mean time I think we need to claim the word “Perverts” for us as in the 2014 Movie “Pride” when the gays helped the coal miners in Thatcher’s England. We NEED to be the Pervert’s who are helping to achieve a better world for our children and our children’s children and on and on. I am thinking of making a black T-shirt with the words “Perverts For The NEED Act” printed across the chest.
In the mean time I am on the Train to NYC to demonstrate at the NYFed: The Black Hole of Democracy.
Linca

Ethanic

Dear Tom,
I greatly admire your blog.
However, due to the quaint topology of word-press, I (along with Lensman and possibly some others) am suffering from Verticality Vertigo (it’s in the DSM!, look it up).

Jasmine

It’d be nice if the comments could fill up some of that empty space to the right under the side-bar. After poking around in the HTML (which you can view with the F12 button) it seems clear to me that the problem is that the main post and the comments are bundled together under ‘[div id=”content”]’ (angle brackets in place of braces) and that puts them in a single column. I’m short on time all the time, but maybe someone wants to edit that so that the comments section is in a separate column placed below both the post and the side-bar and constrained by neither….

Ethanic

Then, going after the left side, I challenge anyone to discover an orderly pattern of incrementing replies- some increments are one letter wide whereas others are five or anything in-between wide. If the increments could be standardised to one letter wide, space would be used more efficiently here too.

Dissident

This is a further response to Edmund, as our thread down below was literally getting stretched too thin.
You have made an awful lot of assumptions about me here, especially with your continued insistingly inclusive us of “we”, as, for example, in “if you feel that only Western history counts because we are currently living in Western society.” As it happens, I don’t mostly live in Western society, my only degree is in Far Eastern history, and I spend more time communicating in an oriental language than in European ones. So who is making “Western” assumptions here?
I apologize (sincerely) for making that error, Edmund, but in all fairness, the reason I did is because I felt you were continuously overlooking the still very evident history of appreciation for GL in Asian cultures, particularly Japan, and Russia, the Ukraine, etc., over the course of the 20th century, and focusing on cultures in the West with a historical (though not modern day) BL tradition. Also, A has been making many good points in this discussion as to why it’s likely that pederasty has been described as a distinct orientation, whereas it never occurred to people with preferences for pubertal and young adolescent girls to do the same, at least not as explicitly, due to various historical factors.
I am not ignoring what you say. I have simply repeatedly requested you to redress what you see as the imbalance in my knowledge by coming up “pre-19th century examples of men who both in practice and in intellectual discourse insisted on a firm distinction between pubescent and older girls (as I could very easily do for the distinction between pubescent boys and men).” I wouldn’t have cared whether such examples came from Tokyo or Timbuctoo, but the silence has become deafening.
And I again welcome you to read all of A’s contributions to our discussion thread for a lot of good insights regarding the ways that girls developed in the past compared to both men and women, to the way boys did in relation to men. There is no “deafening” silence, I am simply pointing out why GL preferences were not singled out in the historical record of the West as it was in cultures native to other hemispheres on the globe. Look, for example, at the multitude of “Junior Idol” videos that are very popular to this day in Japan, along with young model videos popular in Russia and its adjuncts, and the comparative absence of opposite gender counterparts in those markets. Clearly, pubertal and young adolescent girls, and interest in them without a corresponding interest in boys, is quite popular there. Video technology is largely the modern counterpart, and in some ways the successor of, ancient artwork. If you look at Western historical examples, yes, you will find specific philosophers and personages who made a BL orientation distinction, because the intellectual history of the West has been heavily influenced by Greek and Roman philosophy, and this tempts a lot of BLer’s to take a Western-historical-centric view of BL. That’s what I’m trying to say here.

Dissident

Without a corresponding interest in boys?
I actually meant comparable, i.e., to the same degree as, an erotic market in interest to girls. That is why I said “to a comparative degree” as opposed to, say, any degree at all. Just want to clarify there. I also said, elsewhere in this thread, that I have no doubt the full spectrum of human sexual diversity was evident in Asian cultures, including Japan, and the same certainly holds true now. I was focusing on what was most explicitly expressed in their culture historically.
“Nanshoku, the Japanese word for eroticism between adolescent and adult males, was the longest lived and most public expression of same-sex affection anywhere in the world”, according to an article in Koinos: https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/nanshoku_en.htm . This was a salient feature of Samurai culture.
It was also a very salient feature of Samurai culture that a man’s virility was often judged by his ability to please younger girls. No doubt the BL aspect was there too, again because human sexual diversity has been evident in every historical culture, however much one aspect may have been emphasized over another due to various political and cultural factors. But the BL aspect didn’t eclipse the GL aspect as has been interpreted by modern researchers of Greek and Roman sources.
The strong GL aspect of Samurai and Japanese culture in general is evident in the geisha or geiko (do not confuse with the modern American auto company!), and it should be noted that maiko – the kanji term for apprentice geisha (a process that can last from six months to a year, depending on location) – can be translated into English as “dancing child.” This is noted in the following article on geisha: http://www.sleepingsamurai.com/knowledge/geisha/
As is evident from reading the Nanshoku Okagami from this site – http://www.spookhouse.net/angelynx/comics/nanshoku-stories-intro.html – it seems that since the type of age segregation against young adolescents common in the post-19th century world didn’t exist in Edo Period Japan, it wasn’t uncommon for boys as young as 13 to be samurai. As such, it’s quite possible that the lines between what we today clearly demarcate as “boys” and “men” weren’t nearly as explicitly defined. This differing perception in how children and adolescents – the latter a very recent societal construct – were defined in the past compared to how they are defined now is a point A made numerous times in the course of this discussion thread. One pattern that does seem to run through ancient and modern Japan is a strong appreciation for the beauty of younger people in general.
Based on reading these stories, which has a complete absence of geisha in the home of the feudal lords who appear in these tales, particularly “He Died to Save His Lover,” I get the impression that a writer’s preferences dictated how they fashioned their stories: Males with a preference for other males filled the Lords’ palaces with beautiful young male samurai, and structured stories around that dynamic; whereas writers with a preference for girls filled the Lord’s palaces with beautiful young geisha, with stories of passion structured accordingly. This is no different than how modern writers will structure their stories based on their preferences.
I would opine that both BLer and GLer researchers should be mindful of this.
More than a century and a half has passed since the end of Japanese isolation, and the passing of the shogunate, but there still seems to be quite a strong, open, public expression of erotic interest in boys, as expressed through Yaoi (BL) themes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi and shotacon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotacon
Shotacon is indeed popular, but its opposite gender counterpart lolicon is also quite prominent, and seems to be even more popular (at least these days). I think what this makes clear is a strong interest and appreciation among the Japanese for young people in general, something that is quite taboo to openly express in the modern West (I know this, since I’m often taken to task simply for finding young women in their early 20s attractive, since I’m in my 40s).
The point I think I can make here, and which I’ve tried to make throughout this thread, is that there does seem to be a distinction between pubertal and young adolescent girls in Asian culture, much as a distinction has been made between pubertal/young adolescent boys. The former is not absent from global history altogether, you just have to know where to look in order to find it. Needless to say, this distinction has most certainly come of age in the modern era, which is a legitimate part of the historical record.
That said, public salience of the GL side would now appear greatly to exceed that of the BL side, at least in terms of its coverage in the western media, although this may of course be misleading.
The strong expression of adults in modern Japan for the large number of girls now becoming Internet celebrities courtesy of YouTube has been very evident over the past decade, and it has clashed with the Western cultural attitudes of many of these girls and their parents. For a good example of this, you might want to check out my essay posted on Newgon a few years ago, “The Beckii Cruel Situation”: https://www.newgon.com/wiki/Essay:The_Beckii_Cruel_Situation

mr pedo-man

good post; I will have to look there more often. You mention in Japan they’re not fearful of expressing their hebephilic attractions, And that just because its repressed ‘understandably’ does not mean its any less ubiquitous — this little study shows just that:https://philiaresearch.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/study-men-downplay-their-attraction-to-adolescent-girls/

Dissident

Thank you for reading, and thank you for the article on that very important site, Mr. Pedo-Man! I imagine Tom has already seen it, but if not, then he needs to get his peepers over there 🙂

mr pedo-man

Has anybody read this: journal of Sociology — A rather biased Journal, About NAMBILA — Though It did highlight the problems pro-contact MAPs have today,which is — What age should the AOC be; And what methods would be used to iron out any coercive behaviour — I personally think men are seen as dispensable; Therefore any harm,or beatings that they would undergo does not worry people: Also the affect their perceived crimes have on the imagination would make it easier. In contrast to that, People would ‘fear’ a youth, or kid, being at the mercy of a fully grown adult. I can understand that fear — But understand just because you may hold the most ‘power’ if you like; Does not mean the result of a sexual relationship would end badly.
http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1885&context=jssw

Dissident

Do men not often have a physical strength advantage over women? (At least in the upper body, but you know what I mean.) But does society worry to a hysterical extent that this means men will invariably take advantage of this biological fact to be abusive to women? Until perhaps quite recently in American history, didn’t men typically have the advantage in terms of economic clout over women? (In fact, women were often encouraged to court and marry a man of superior means as a way of “moving up” in the world, and this lopsided mentality has not been totally eliminated to this day.)
So why aren’t concerns over alleged power disparities re: intergenerational relationships dealt with in a more rational way? Because intergenerational relationships offend the sensibilities of mainstream society in a way similar-age heterosexual relationships do not, plain and simple. This is why concerns regarding intergenerational relationships are so heavily overcompensated for. This also explains why vanilla homosexual relationships were once taboo in an era when it could be argued that same gender relationships were much less likely to have serious physical and economic power disparities between the couple.

Filip

Hello Tom,
“the man who first used the term paedophilia erotica in 1886, Richard von Krafft-Ebing”
Not unimportant: The mental disorder pedophobia produced the name “paedophilia erotica” 12 years later. The term paedophilia erotica appeared for the first time 1898 in the 10th edition of “Psychopathia sexualis”. In the 9th edition the term was not used by Richard von Krafft-Ebing. At least according to an analysis of one german jungsforum-writer (https://www.jungsforum.net/messages/262629.htm), I haven´t checked the books for myself.

Peter Herman

In reading the GlobalPost article by Corinne Purtill, the notion of confirmation bias came to mind. To cite an example, there is currently in the United States a brouhaha over an article in Rolling Stone magazine that falsely reported on the gang rape of a university woman in a fraternity house. The account had never been properly fact checked, and the pundits now attribute this egregious error to confirmation bias. Reporters tend to hold to certain narratives consciously or unconsciously, and when a situation arises that fits one of the narratives, no vetting is necessary. The Rolling Stone reporter was a woman, rape of female students on college campuses is the problem du jour, the student who reported the rape was quite distraught, hence the jump to an incorrect conclusion.
In the case just described, when the facts did not fit, a retraction came quickly. After all, the university and fraternity in question have quite a bit of clout. Not so for MAPS, pedophiles or whatever appellation one may choose. The public perception of them fits a confirmation bias that is next to impossible to overcome. Corinne Purtill’s article just reeks of it.

Edmund

[TOC: This post by Edmund is intended as a reply to Dissident’s post of 5 April, which may be located quickly by the search term “plutocracy”.] Your point is clear, but I’m not so sure about your solution. So far as I know, the proletarian majority is at least as inclined to be bigoted and intolerant as the rich (and mostly better educated and more sophisticated) few. What I care about is not being oppressed rather than who does the oppressing.
Edmund, Alexander’s Choice, a novel.

Dissident

Indeed, Edmund. That’s why I pointed out that whether the few who own and control the media are bureaucrats of the state or private capitalists makes no fundamental difference. Further, this is why a true constitutional democracy should protect the public from oppression not only from the tyranny of an oligarchical few, but also the tyranny of the majority. If we lack certain inalienable rights that no majority vote can take away, then we don’t have a free society, plain and simple.

Joseph

“Dodgson was no dodgy don, she insists: he was in love not with Alice but with her governess, a Miss Mary Prickett.”
LOL. So naive. Had he been in love with her I’m pretty sure the book would have been called Mary in Wonderland. Miss Mary Prickett is actually the suspected inspiration for The Red Queen who was the antagonists in Through A Looking Glass. That tells me that Carroll probably didn’t like her at all.

clovernews

From your introduction I thought you were going to discuss this (posted in BoyChat), where the BBC insists that it is going to continue to follow the tabloids’ equation of ‘paedophile’ with ‘child molester’.

Ethanic

So from this, the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the only good paedophile is… a Virtuous Paedophile.
The VirPeds are winning?
The BBC- Britain’s lowest common denominator in media.
Mind-bending!
(BC is back on. GC is down due to technical causes.)

clovernews

So from this, the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the only good paedophile is… a Virtuous Paedophile.

More likely that the BBC thinks that paedophiles, virtuous or not, are all as bad as child molesters.

Dissident

The BBC’s basic rationalization for continuing to make the conflation seems to be that the lack of a difference between a pedophile and a child molester is so embedded in the mindset of the public that it’s futile on their part to make any attempt to set the record straight. And after all, they point out, since “many” pedophiles may act on their feelings – and this is always presumed to be abusive regardless of individual circumstances and context due to the legal status of underagers – then it’s perfectly fine in their eyes to consider all pedophiles to be “molesters” in a by proxy manner.
This roughly translates thusly: They don’t care enough about this situation to make any attempt to rectify the matter. They’re the media, not scientists, so they have no loyalty to scientific/clinical accuracy even if they happen to be aware of the facts. And perhaps most importantly, they simply dislike MAPs so much that they can care less about dragging the community through the mud with the loaded and often outright inaccurate use of language. After all, big hatred for us often amounts to big ratings for them, and that’s primarily what the media are shooting for, not accuracy or facts.

Edmund

I am rather impressed that the BBC went to such trouble answering one person’s complaint, and their arguments seem reasonable enough to me. If , as I suspect, they are correct that in popular understanding of English “paedophile” now means child molester, why fight a losing battle over it? Wouldn’t it make more sense for heretics to concede the loss of this never-appealing word and instead point out indignantly that as boylovers, girllovers, pederasts or whatever they could not possibly be paedophiles since they could never think of molesting a child?
I say this particularly as one who strongly believes the distinction heretics should be trying to draw is between them and doers of harm rather than (as VP would have it) between those who do or do not believe acting on their feelings must necessarily always be wrong. The BBC’s reply very much underlines what a lost cause VP is, and personally I’m glad about that. Good riddance!
Edmund Marlowe, author of Alexander’s Choice, a story of Greek Love.

feinmann0

Well, yes, and to your list Edmund, I would add minor-attracted, but unfortunately, whatever word(s) you use, it is impossible to extinguish the child-molesting connotation; no alternative is acceptable in these ignorant, febrile times. It seems, gays too have had negative-connotation issues with the word homosexual from the outset.
Looking up the Wikipedia, the LGBT (initialization for sexual minority groups) entry fails to mention anything about a minor-attracted sexuality. Only when minor-attraction starts to appear in places such as this Wiki entry, will the child-molesting connotation begin to subside.
SLGB (1988), SLGBT (1990), SLGBTQ (1996), SLGBTQP (????), … Maybe someone could propose a geometric series formula for these terms in order to calculate when P-for-pederasts might be added to the sexual diversity rainbow.

Ethanic

To quote the venerable(phew) BBC, “On the other hand, we need to recognise that while there are undoubtedly many paedophiles who do not act on their attractions, there are many who do”.
This seems to give slightly-above-freezing temperature approval to the “Virps” while categorically condemning all that are “active”.

Christian

If one bases oneself on facts, not gossip or speculation, then Lewis Carroll’s relation with prepubertal girls was just friendly and platonic. The supposition that it was driven by sexual desire was put forward by Freudians (and I consider this as an argument against it, since Freudian psychoanalysis is persistently wrong and contradicted by science). It was then popularized by Morton Cohen, in particular in his Biography of LC, and to support his hypothesis he offered mostly speculation and wishful thinking. Many people, often smug ignorant ones, have repeated it over and over as a “known fact”, just because they want to believe it, and anything that conforts their belief is to them “valid knowledge”.
In your quest for a Most Famous Patron Saint of Heresy, you show yourself ready to espouse Cohen’s fantasies and his rivalry with Edward Wakeling. Otherwise your essay reproduces the usual mistakes: quotes taken out of context, lack of scholarly sources, gratuitous speculation, repeating gossip by journalists (I consider that unless having proven his/her trustworthiness, a journalist should _never_ be trusted), etc. You even repeat the loaded language of being (or not being) “in denial”.
You are quick to deride Wakeling’s expertise. If you read his website, especially the text “The real Lewis Carrroll”, you will see that the man bases his arguments on facts and scholarly knowledge, excluding any gossip, speculation or wishful thinking.
I advise you the collection of scholarly essays on the Contrariwise website:
http://contrariwise.wild-reality.net/articles/articles.html
In particular I recommend “C. L. Dodgson & the Victorian Cult of the Child” and “Your Affectionate Friend…” by the academic Hugues Lebailly; also “Your Sexagenarian Lover…” and “Lewis Carroll and Adult Women” by Karoline Leach are worth reading.
I recall some facts to counter superficial “proofs” of LC’s suposed unorthodox sexuality:
– LC remained a bachelor because this was part of his contract with Christ Church; normally he should have entered priesthood, but because of his speech defect, he remained a deacon. In particular, he could not have proposed marriage to Alice, since this would have meant losing his job.
– He could be flirtacious with teenage girls or young adult women.
– He appreciated the nude adult female form in art.
– He was excited at the prospect of photographing 16 year old Xie Kitchin in swimsuit.
– The 5 surviving nude photographs of children by LC (4 girls and 1 boy) are reproduced in Cohen’s Biography; the 4 girl nudes are available on Wikimedia Commons. By today’s standards, they are perfectly innocent (in France) and legal (even in the US).
– The other nude photographs of children were destroyed at his request in order to preserve the privacy of the sitters.
– The note by his nieces on the cut pages in the diary was found, see
http://web.archive.org/web/20060614223344/http://www.lookingforlewiscarroll.com/cutpages.html
Indeed they tell that LC was suspected of using the children as a mean to court the governess, Miss Pricket, or that he courted Ina (who was then 14, a marriable age); it is the gossip that says that LC was in love with Miss Pricket, not Karoline Leach (as you write).
Finally concerning the (in)famous BBC documentary “The Secret World of Lewis Carroll”, Wakeling is right to reject the so-called “experts”, as do all serious LC scholars. The matter was discused at length in a article on the blog Pigtails in Paint and in its comments:
https://www.pigtailsinpaint.com/2015/03/sensationalism-the-two-camps-and-the-eternal-child/
You can see in it the Musée Cantini picture claimed to be of Lorina. As both the article and the comments explain, it is a fake, and what the “experts” say should just frighten anyone whose fate in court would depend on the testimony of such people. In particular in my comments I gave some links to scholarly criticism, then I followed the method proposed by Louise Marchal in her blog. Look at pictures of Lorina, both as a little girl and as a young woman: she has thick eyelids and arching eyebrows; these features do not match the Musée Cantini photograph.
In your search for a Most Holy Patron Saint of Heresy, I advise you to investigate less famous but more genuine candidates, such as John Ruskin and Ernest Dowson. I have not studied Ruskin yet, but Dowson fell in love with a girl aged 11 years and a half, in the most usual romantic sense, he openly expressed his feelings throughout his correspondence, and he wanted to marry her when she would be of appropriate age. Before meeting her, he worshiped little girls an disparaged adult women.

Dissident

Actually, Christian, Tom quoted many facts and sources, and provided much evidence. It appears to me that the interpretation of Charles Dodgson as a pedophile raises hackles with many who, for whatever personal reasons, do not want to see him as a MAP. It seems Dodgson, unlike many other of his contemporaries, has been connected to the paradigm of Innocence due to his life’s work. The degree of vitriol implicit in denouncing these connections, which were very clear in your response to Tom, are strong indicators of this.
Nevertheless, as you see, Tom didn’t pull an “Amazon” on you and delete the info you provided, so I certainly do encourage others to study it in-depth and weigh its merits against the evidence Tom provided fairly. Maybe Tom himself can do this in a future follow-up to this blog.

Joseph

“Who in the world am I? Ah, that’s the great puzzle.”
? Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Ethanic

Using only my intuition, I would surmise that anyone who says that children are three-fourths of their life is either a mother of twelve(or maybe three?) or, a paedophile.

feinmann0

Single parent fathers too, but maybe you consider them, as men, to be paedophiles too.

Ethanic

I’m sorry for excluding the male part of the equation. My mistake.

Christian

Ethanic: there are many reasons for having one’s life centered about children: being a teacher, loving their fresh and spontaneous minds, rejecting the world of adults, etc.
If a person claims that horses are the passion of her life, has horses, feeds and grooms them, give them attention and affection, spends her free time horse-riding or participating in horse events, nobody will call her a “zoophile”. Indeed, many people indulge in friendship and cuddling with their pets, because they feel free to do what they want without being blamed or suspected. Very long ago, male friends could exchange hugs and kisses and walk hand in hand, while adults could kiss and cuddle children, without raising the suspicion of a deviant sexuality. Now male friends will not dare to exchange a hug or a kiss on the cheek, because they have been told since primary school that it is “homosexual”; and adults do not dare to touch children who are not of their family, out of fear of being branded as “perverts”. Labeling as “sexual” an affectionate behaviour is a classic feature of moral panic, homophobia and pedo-hunting. When pedos imitate this form of thinking, this is not a sign of independence.
Now for Tom: I understand that nobody likes having his beliefs bluntly demolished, but I don’t want to play the mutual congratulation game. My advice: Read the works of the scholars directly, not through the summaries or reviews by journalists. Read several scholars, including those who disagree with Cohen: he is quite learned, but he tends to fill the gaps in facts with his own wishes. Don’t trust anything written or said by journalists (unless repeatedly proven trustworthy). Next, have a look at the 5 surviving Carroll child nudes in Cohen’s Biography, then tell us if they are “carnal disport” that “falls foul of the law”. Read also what he says on the way these pics were obtained. Finally, look at the Musée Cantini pseudo-Lorina picture and compare its facial features with those of known photographs of Lorina as a little girl and as a young woman.

Ethanic

For me affection and sexuality are part of a continuum that is attraction to children. I make no moral judgement of any behaviour anywhere on this continuum. Please do not insinuate that I have been affected by the “moral panic “

Lensman

Certainly Dowson is a much more clear-cut case.
It seems that CLD may have been a non-exclusive (inclusive?) paedophile.
We ‘incs’ can behave and live in ways that disguise our true interest: we are much more prone to muddying the waters than are ‘excs’: a genuine appreciation of womanly forms, relationships with grown women, marriage, progeny, sexist pub-banter, beer, farting and football (well maybe not the last…)
But I also recognise in CLD that which makes me a ‘paedophile’, and which reduces my teleiophilic side to a kind of ‘release’, a convenient valve for a build up of testicular pressure: that my deepest emotional interest and respect and feelings of love are for little girls.
Like myself, CLD clearly felt a delight and fascination for them in a way that he didn’t feel for adult women. Yes, the evidence of his sexuality that has been allowed to survive is ambiguous, ‘suggestive’ rather than ‘definitive’, but the evidence of his love, his passion, his fascination, his empathy falls heavily on the side of little girls.
Compare the letters he wrote to little girls with those he wrote to their mothers or other women: the former are works of sympathetic genius – every word is an act of mental intimacy with the child, through an engagement with the child’s personality, their shared history, through humour, teasing, word-play, the giving of the best of himself.
His letters to adult women generally only take flight when referring to little girls – think of his letter to the adult Alice where he confesses that the little girl she had been would always be special to him, different to all the rest, his ideal little girl (I wish I could lay my hand on the quote, my volume of his letters having recently been destroyed…), and how the rest of the letter almost feels like he’s speaking into the silence left behind by the loss and disappearance of the child he loved.
In short I think that whilst sexual behaviour is a stronger proof of sexual inclination, society’s attitudes towards paedophilia mean that many of us, especially ‘incs’, will not leave a ‘sexual trail’ behind us for a biographer (or law enforcement agent!) to follow – but we may well leave an ‘affective trail’ instead.

A.

I think the statistic is that half of boy-lovers and three-quarters of girl-lovers also have some attraction to adults, so excitement at the prospect of photographing a sixteen-year-old doesn’t disqualify anybody. I see Lensman has written about his own experience of being an ‘inc’. My anecdote-based impression is that it’s also not uncommon for a paedophile to remain attracted to a child as the child becomes older, even if they’re otherwise unattracted to adults, just as some teleiophiles will remain attracted to ageing partners — and didn’t Carroll start photographing Kitchin when she was four?
By the way, the world’s foremost J. M. Barrie expert, Andrew Birkin, has said that Barrie cannot have been a paedophile because his relationship with his two favourite Llewellyn Davies boys, George and Michael, deepened as the boys grew up. What an argument! What about someone who says that his love for his wife of half a century has only deepened with time, even though her hot twenty-something days are long gone? Nobody questions that. I still do recommend Birkin’s book J. M. Barrie and the Lost Boys (originally subtitled The Love Story that Gave Birth to Peter Pan, but no longer).
Dowson’s was an interesting, and sad, life. According to Jad Adams’s biography, he satisfied his sexual desires with female sex workers aged around 15-17: just about physically mature, even then, but still very young-looking. Meanwhile he adored little girls, and, as you say, disparaged women: “I think it possible for the feminine nature to be relatively candid and simplex, up to the age of eight or nine. After that — faugh!”
If anyone’s interested, Dowson: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8497 and Carroll: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11483 . The 1985 film Dreamchild, about Carroll and Alice, is on YouTube.

Lensman

The whole Alice Liddell Charles Lutwidge Dodgson relationship is so affecting and haunting. I still remember vividly myself, 30 years ago and still a student, traveling across London on public transport to watch a screening of Gavin Millar’s ‘Dreamchild’. The ending left me devastated and I spent the long crowded return journey by bus and train in a constant, and futile, fight against paroxysms of weeping.
Soon afterwards I would discover THAT photo, the photo of Alice as a beggar child. Of all the photographs and photographers who have addressed childhood with insight and penetration (I’m thinking people like Diane Arbus, Judith Joy Ross, Lewis Hine, Sally Mann, and a one-off photograph by Eugene Atget of a street-child singing at a barrell organ) or whose subjects has been ‘Love’, I still feel that this photo is possibly the one that asks the most questions, that maintains its spell the longest.
Society also needs to be able acknowledge that someone can be good, creative, imaginative, friendly, moral and still be a paedophile. It’s a bit of a bee in my bonnet – at the moment the immediately available culture only makes available conceptions of ‘the paedophile’ as either some kind of libidinous monster, or some scared, miserable, self-hating inadequate. A young, confused person discovering that they are attracted to children has to choose between these two role models.
It’s so important that there be available in our culture examples of admirable paedophiles – for myself, as I was growing up, Lewis Carroll gave me hope – his Alice books and especially his letters to children – showed me that paedophilia could be a joyful and playful experience, and confirmed the hope which experience was starting to show me: that my love could be something that would serve to enrich the lives of the children I was close to.
Having available role models of admirable paedophiles could almost certainly do more to reduce the incidence of real child abuse than so many punitive and restrictive laws and measures – a paedophile who has self respect, who is not filled with self-loathing, who can see ways of channeling his/her desires in socially acceptable ways, is someone who is a lot less likely to do something stupid or lose control. Having good role models, I believe, is an important part of this.
In fact paedophilia could build a fine history for itself. Off the top of my head I can think of the following who were either paedophiles, part-paedophiles, suspect paedophiles, sympathisers, or who would have been considered as paedophiles nowadays:
Michael Jackson, Wilfred Owen, Mark Twain, John Ruskin, William van Gloeden, J.M. Barrie, Benjamin Britten, Richard Hughes, L.S. Lowry, T.H. White, Ernest Dowson, Egon Schiele, Alexander Scriabin, Alain Robbe-Grillet, André Gide, Karol Symanowski, Walt whitman, Joseph Cornell, Oscar Wilde, Allen Ginsberg, Saint Augustine, Vladimir Nabokov, Gandhi, Arthur C. Clarke, Richard Hughes,Francis Kilvert, Eric Gill, Charles Chaplin, L.S. Lowry, Strato, Pindar, Catullus, Christopher Marlowe, Thomas Mann, Balthus…
I don’t know whether the fact that these are nearly all ‘artists’ of one form or another is a reflection of my own interests, or whether being at odds with society is more likely to lead you to to express yourself ‘sideways’ through the arts, or whether someone more knowledgeable of sports, science or other fields could come up with similar lists…

Kit Marlowe

I have to admit a real weakness for Robbe-Grillet myself – partly on the basis of a very sympathetic review of ‘Un Roman sentimental’ in a recent edition of the London Review of Books. I recommend it to those who still think of ARG as (merely) a deranged sadist. His admirers can perceive him also as a committed and hard-working artist who transformed the chaotic realm of his own inchoate desires into literature of astonishing purity and style. His private life was also apparently rather less scandalous than his literary fantasies might suggest. What I did not realise until coming across the LRB review is that despite his sexual obsession with young girls, Robbe-Grillet had a life-long passionate relationship with his wife, who indulged his many perversions and indeed took to them with aplomb (she still maintains an S & M dungeon from her chateau in Normandy, though as her letter to the LRB emphasises “I have only ever been a dominatrix for my personal pleasure, never ever for money!”). The closing paragraph of Adam Schatz’s review gives a flavour of its judicious evaluation of ARG as a man and an artist:
“The passion Robbe-Grillet describes in such outrageous detail is, perhaps, less important than what he called his ‘passion to describe’: the solitary passion that defined the nouveau roman. Robbe-Grillet’s other great love was his wife Catherine, his petite fille. Their marriage, an unbroken pact of complicity over more than half a century, bears a close resemblance to the relationship of the couple in Un Roman sentimental [….] she’s the brilliant pupil who absorbs the wisdom of her Master and surpasses him in the art of sexual cruelty. (She even seems to be the ideal Robbe-Grillet reader, impressed by an erotic novel’s ‘precise description, objective, without superfluous words’.) The ornate, almost comically rarefied prose here is less reminiscent of Sade than of the Robbe-Grillets’ unsigned marital contract. The last line of this, the last novel Robbe-Grillet published, is unexpectedly declamatory, and unexpectedly moving: ‘Thus shall we for ever live in celestial fortresses.’ His own celestial fortress was literature itself, the secret room of the imagination. Literature had been his freedom from truth and certainty, and a playpen for his criminal passions and victimless crimes. In her memoir Alain, Catherine Robbe-Grillet, who still works out of a chambre secrète at the Château du Mesnil-au-Grain, described her husband’s last novel as ‘his bouquet’. She knew the flowers were for her.”
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/adam-shatz/at-the-crime-scene

Lensman

>Would you make a case for Robbe-Grillet?
Maybe Robbe-Grillet would come under the ‘sympathiser’ rubric, since he was one of the signatories to the 1977 French “Pétition contre la majorité sexuelle” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws.
I’ve also read that “This sort of thing (paedophilia) is in almost all the Robbe-Grillet novels, although usually it is a young prepubescent girl and an older man who lusts after her” – but can’t remember anything to get the juices flowing in the only thing I’ve read of his to date – ‘La Jalousie”. But that may be more to do with my sieve-like memory…
Maybe a good excuse for picking up one of his books… any recommendations anyone?
> Not so sure about all of those you name being good role models, though.
You should see some the names I left out!

mr pedo-man

Don’t forget Baden Powell — Could just Imagen the tabloids today: “Baden the perv!”

Lensman

>Don’t forget Baden Powell — Could just Imagen the tabloids today: “Baden the perv!”
Yes, but I found that his “Scouting for Boys” doesn’t quite live up to the promise of its title…

A.

I would add Dostoyevsky and Tchaikovsky. Mustn’t forget the Russians!
Tony Duvert, Henry de Montherlant, Roger Peyrefitte, Gerard Malanga (rather inclusive!), Ralph Chubb, Harold Norse, etc. etc. etc.
Science: Carleton Gajdusek, Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. See the documentary The Genius and the Boys on YouTube.
Sport: Bill Tilden.

A.

…Mark Twain, Elvis, Charlie Chaplin (apparently helped Bill Tilden out after his legal troubles), J. D. Salinger…though on the good role model front, the latter two treated several of the adolescent girls they were involved with something less than kindness and consideration…
Edgar Allan Poe’s an interesting fellow: if I recall correctly, most of his relationships were with women his age and older, and yet the love of his life was the cousin he fell for when she was thirteen and he twenty-six.
Soldiers: Field Marshal Montgomery, Domingo Monterrosa (only rumoured, and talk about horrible role models!)

Dissident

Thank you for all of this pertinent info, A. Personally, I’m not certain that Edgar Allen Poe would count as a true hebephile, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. He simply had what today would be considered a hebephiliac relationship with Victoria, the love of his life. Such liaisons were not extremely unusual at the time, and were not demonized nearly to the extent that they are today.
I’m not familiar with Bill Tilden, but I never recall hearing that Charlie Chaplin was outright unkind to the young adolescent girls he courted, at least not to an extent genuinely bordering on or slipping fully into the realm of actual abuse. In fact, he remained married to the much younger woman he finally married for the duration of his life, which was a few decades of time, and I do not recall ever reading anything about the relationship suggesting it was an abusive one. However, that doesn’t mean you aren’t privy to accurate information about Chaplin’s relationships that I haven’t come across.
Further, for what it’s worth Tilden and Chaplin were celebrities, who as a group tend to lead lifestyles that are not conducive to forming humble personalities, let alone fostering loyal, happy, and strife-free relationships. So I wouldn’t be surprised if these two men weren’t exactly the best role models for hebephiles and MAPs in general to follow.
I’ve also read that Thomas Edison and Grover Cleveland were likewise hebephiles, but the latter may simply have been a man with essentially vanilla inclinations who simply had a hebephiliac relationship, specifically with the much younger woman he eventually married. One does not, of course, have to have a preferential or significant attraction to minors of any age group, particularly adolescents, to be attracted to a special individual whom they may or may not actually fall in love with. The same could be the case with Tommy Lee Jones, as I’m not sure what his love life outside of the 13-year-old cousin he married was like.
Homer has also been suspected of being a MAP, specifically a pedophile, but in all honesty I consider this to be a problematic assumption for the simple reason that not enough is definitively known about that author IMO, the love lives of the great minds of ancient Greece were not generally put under any major scrutiny by historians of the time, and some researchers have conjectured that “Homer” may have been a pen name for more than one epic poet.

A.

Chaplin’s last marriage was indeed by all accounts a roaring success, but I gather the first two were less so — though the fault can’t have been all on his side: the young wives in question don’t emerge looking perfect, either. Certainly Lita Grey’s mother may have been the most manipulative out of everyone involved.
Interesting, these one-off hebephiles. Young women to teen girls isn’t that much of a jump to make for that special person, though: just think of Keynes and Tom Robinson, both of whom were very gay until they each fell in love with a woman. That’s rather more of a gap to cross, in terms of physique.

Edmund

“Personally, I’m not certain that Edgar Allen Poe would count as a true hebephile, for precisely the reasons you mentioned.”
So who would you count as a “true hebephile” girllover who lived before the Victorians invented the absurd notion that attraction to pubescent girls is not a commonplace and acceptable part of male sexuality?

Dissident

One like Mark Twain, who consistently showed a strong or preferential interest in pubescent and young adolescent girls over and above that of women in his prevailing age group. As you noted, however, there can be no doubt that the term “hebephile” is more a sociological construction in concert with post-19th century values than a bona fide orientation. The open popularity of pubescent and young adolescent girls in Japan and Russia are testament to this.

A.

Then there’s Novalis. And Richard Barnfield (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19902). And we’re being a bit Euro/US-centric: mustn’t forget Abu Nuwas and Hafez. As Edmund points out, using labels like paedophile and hebephile for members of long-gone cultures which didn’t think about these things in at all the same way we do is pretty problematic. But the much-celebrated poetry of both men does certainly indicate a strong attraction to boys of fourteen and fifteen.
How about the distinguished film director Ermanno Olmi? His wife, Loredana Detto, is nearly fifteen years younger than him. As a beautiful girl of fourteen or fifteen, she played the unrequited crush of the main character in Olmi’s first film, Il Posto. The pair married when Detto was not quite seventeen. Devoutly Roman Catholic, they have stayed married ever since, and have three kids, including a producer daughter and a cinematographer son. In Olmi’s second film, I Fidanzati, the protagonist’s intended mentions that she met her fiancé for the first time when she was fifteen or sixteen. (Il Posto is available on YouTube.)
As for famous female paedos, well, it appears we’ve got a countess on our side: https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00oct12c_old_article.htm And Germaine Greer!
Since somebody mentioned Karol Szymanowski, here is a translation from the French of his four poems for Boris Kochno: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Four_poems_for_Boris_Kochno. His Stabat Mater is on YouTube, sung by the boys’ choir Polskie Slowiki, or Polish Nightingales. They were a wonderful outfit. Their most famous member was Dionizy Placzkowski, who joined aged ten and at fourteen, as probably the best boy soprano soloist in the world at that time, recorded as a soloist on two CDs, Dennis and Baroque in South America. Not long thereafter, the choir director, Wojciech Krolopp, himself a former boy soprano and later a baritone, was sent to prison for sex with three choirboys. He has since died, and the choir was dissolved. Fortunately much of their work is on YouTube and they have been re-formed as the Poznanski Chór Chlopiecy.

A.

John Henry Mackay. Robbie Ross and Bosie Douglas. Henry Scott Tuke. Caravaggio, in all likelihood. Benvenuto Cellini, whose autobiography, with details about his attraction to boys 13-16, is here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4028 Gerard Manley Hopkins, who apparently liked boys and men both. Joe Orton, who states in his diaries that fifteen was his favourite age, though he also had plenty of sex with men. Hakim Bey. Quite possibly Fernando Pessoa, whose sexuality is not documented, but who wrote (in English!) the following poem: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24262/24262.txt. Jan Hanlo, who wrote poetry about his unrequited love for his twelve-year-old neighbour, had a breakdown due to the conflict between his boy-love and his Roman Catholicism, then recovered, took off to Morocco, had a relationship with a thirteen-year-old, and wrote about his experiences in Go to the Mosk.
I see I am getting carried away and shall proceed to cut it out. But another interesting avenue of exploration might be: which famous people had intergenerational relationships when they were kids themselves? For one, the pioneering gay activist Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, who at age fourteen had sex with his riding instructor. In later life Ulrichs he condemned relationships between men and prepubertal boys. Sexually mature boys were fine, apparently. Which was Ulrichs at the time of his relationship? Sure, it was the 1800s, but the homosexual men interviewed by Havelock Ellis mostly said that they started growing pubic hair and ejaculating at fourteen or fifteen, with several early developers having started at twelve.

Edmund

A., your list is fascinating and an extraordinary testament to your profound knowledge of the past, but I think you are missing and obscuring my point by equating hebephilia with paedophilia and boylove with girllove.
There is indeed a profusion of literature from ancient to modern expressing erotic admiration of boys simultaneous to disgust with the idea of man/man sex, and sometimes also strong statements as to the desirability of boys over females. Extending over recorded history, I would argue this is strong evidence of pederasty as a distinct sexual inclination.
I was trying gently to make the case that hebephilic girllove (not paedophilic, of which I feel too ignorant to speak) is in fact what Dissident says, “more a sociological construction in concert with post-19th century values than a bona fide orientation”. In my view, any such exclusively very modern construction may reasonably be regarded with intellectual contempt as a cognitive aberration, so I was wondering if anybody could counter me by coming up with a single pre-19th century person who professed or demonstrated an exclusive preference for pubescent girls over anything else as strong as that often expressed for their boy counterparts. So far no examples have been offered, but I await with great interest.
Edmund, author of Alexander’s Choice, a boylove story

Dissident

Edmund, all you have to do to find cultures that had a strong fixation and respect for pubertal girl love is Asia. This has carried over into certain modern day Asian nations, particularly Japan. The reason certain BLer’s and Western researchers insist that pubertal BL is a legitimate orientation spoke of throughout history in contrast to pubertal GL is because they focus their attention on ancient world cultures where for whatever reason, the emphasis was on BL. It’s easy for people in the contemporary West to overlook cultures outside this region of the world when researching this or any other sociological topic, as we have been much more influenced by ancient Western cultures than ancient and even contemporary Eastern cultures.
This can result in serious confirmation bias that pederasty is and was more prominent or “legitimate” in the overall human experience than its female counterpart. This has, unfortunately, even led to arguments for focusing studies on BL (particularly of the pubescent and young adolescent variety) to the exclusion of GL, treating the latter as some sort of modern day aberration that has no historical context. Very wrong, and very biased. In fact, the ancient Greek emphasis on BL hasn’t significantly carried into modern Greek society outside of leftover works of art, whereas the East’s emphasis on GL is very much still a visible part of Japanese society and culture. Russia and its adjunct nations have had a strong emphasis on GL throughout the 20th century to the present, and has de-emphasized all varieties of homosexuality, including BL – even though I would in no way assume that’s because BL and what we today consider vanilla homosexuality doesn’t exist there in large numbers.
The reasons for BL being so strongly emphasized in certain ancient Western cultures, and GL being so strongly emphasized in certain ancient Eastern cultures, is likely predicated upon certain specific cultural and political forces unique to each society in question. The same can be argued for Russia, the Ukraine, etc., in more recent times. Further study and focus is needed to determine exactly what these factors are.
What we can glean from modern observations is that human sexual preferences are diverse. But the de-emphasis of it in the cultural historical record of Eastern nations and certain modern Anglican [TOC: ?? Anglophone?] nations effectively created the illusion that love for boys was far less prominent than love for girls in Asia et al., much as the opposite is the case for ancient Western societies like Greece and Rome.
Speaking for myself, my preference for pubescent and adolescent girls over that of adult women and males of *any* age is quite pronounced. I have never had any type of attraction to fellow males. I have known this to be the case with many other people. I have also conversely known many others who have the opposite preferences to myself. Hence, I believe that a close, unbiased look at this topic throughout human history suggests that diversity is the main rule of human sexuality.
While open acknowledgement of various preferences will vary from culture to culture and time period to time period, focusing on specific cultures and specific times should not bring us to the conclusion that any one type of attraction, preference, or orientation has ever been any more “real” or “legit” than any other in any given time or place.
As A also importantly noted, different cultures in different eras didn’t think about what we today consider distinct orientations in the same way. Particularly, what we today may consider moral “issues” related to certain preferences were not thought of as “problems” to be stamped out in previous cultures. In many ways, by researching the past from the present vantage point we are attempting to identify instances of recorded attraction in a way that we can define them under today’s definitions, ostensibly to make it clear that they are not modern aberrations that indicate some sort of sickness, and are not invariably connected to violent or other forms of erratic behavior. They have *all* been expressed throughout human history in mutually reciprocal and benevolent ways regardless of how differently they may be looked upon or defined by today’s standards.
Hence, in all honesty, Edmund, this is why I have been quite vocal about opposing modern emphasis and research on BL over that of GL, and treating one as more inherently or historically “legit” than the other. That only leads to disparities in understanding for both scientific and civil rights purposes within both the science professions and the MAP community.

Dissident

Yes, I should have said “Anglophone” rather than “Anglican”… thank you for catching that! Consider this a lesson to all for posting before their morning coffee 🙂 I also apologize for the length, but I couldn’t find a way to make these important points clear with more brevity; I still need to work on this!

A.

Don’t apologise. That was absolutely fascinating.

Edmund

Thanks for the explanation. It looks to me as though you are confusing two different kinds of “legitimate”, legitimate as a form of love and legitimate as a classification.
As regards the first, I suspect we agree. Lest you think otherwise, I should emphasise that I believe any strong intervention in a love affair between an adult and an unambiguously willing pubescent of either sex is simply evil (with the limited exception of the pubescent’s parents under certain circumstances).
I also agree strongly that culture has been a strong determinant of sexuality. And so far from disagreeing with A. that ” different cultures in different eras didn’t think about what we today consider distinct orientations in the same way”, you can count me out of your “we”. As with most things, I think the different eras were wiser.
I fear we still disagree on the relative legitimacy of pederasty and what you call hebephile girllove as distinct classifications. I had thought we were in tune when you said the latter was “more a sociological construction in concert with post-19th century values than a bona fide orientation.” Now I will explain why I think this was correct.
Pederasty has varied from being rare and reviled (as recently, but not only recently) to being admired and essentially ubiquitous. Since, historically, most men sexually active with boys have also interested themselves in females, but not in men, it would be false logic to classify pederasty as a sub-category of homosexuality in a homo/hetero division of humanity. Either therefore all classifications of sexual inclination are bogus or pederasty is on its own as one. But though, as Rocke said of Renaissance Florence, pederasty “was part of a single male culture,” (in his book Forbidden Friendships), it would be going too far to say it ever lost its distinction from heterosexuality. This is not least because even in the societies like classical Greece and Renaissance Italy where it was assumed that men were attracted to both females and boys, there was still an acknowledgement of preference and even intense debates over which form of love was better.
Turning to hebephile girllove, if it were something much more distinct from the general attraction to fertile females than ” a sociological construction in concert with post-19th century “, then it should be easy to come up with pre-19th century examples of men who both in practice and in intellectual discourse insisted on a firm distinction between pubescent and older girls (as I could very easily do for the distinction between pubescent boys and men). This I have yet to see. Yes, people are generally attracted to youth, and some (like you) feel much more strongly about it than others, but I see no evidence of barriers or even seams beween heterosexual hebephilia, ephebephilia and teleiophilia. Hence I suggest the application of these terms to heterosexuality says more about the petty-minded, bureaucratic nature of 21st-century people than human reality.
I can well understand your being put out if some boylovers have in any way denigrated your feelings for pubescent girls, but you should not assume that any exclusive focus on pederasty implies such denigration. It does not. Because pederasty is much more distinct from any attraction to adults, it has usually been practised on very different terms to hebephile girllove, and it poses some of its own problems while evading others, it needs some of its own rationale. What those arguing for homosexual and heterosexual hebephilia obviously have in common is refuting the notion that pubescents need protection by an age of consent, but that is all. Without this unnuancedly vicious restriction, you could be in harmony with the large majority today, while pederasts would still need to explain a form of love alien to almost everybody today.
Edmund, author of Alexander’s Choice, a boylove novel.

Dissident

As I noted before, Edmund, it’s not hard to find historical instances of individuals and whole cultures who put a strong emphasis on love of young girls as distinct from that of adult women, much as pederasty does the same between boys and men, and without putting a strong emphasis on love for boys: You simply have to look beyond Western culture. I noted specifically that such an emphasis is rife in Asian cultures, specifically in Japan, throughout history and even into the modern day (unlike modern Greece and Italy, I should reiterate). But to be frank, you again ignored this. If you feel that only Western history counts because we are currently living in Western society, then you are correct. But Western culture and history is hardly the benchmark by which the entire world operated in accordance with. It was only during the 19th century that the two cultures even had regular contact, and much more recently still that Western culture began exerting dominant sociological and cultural tendrils into the Eastern world.
Moreover, you have the more recent examples of Russia, the Ukraine, etc. Emphasis on GL is strong there, even if the culture and politics have a powerful disconnect for it due to heavy Western influence from the late 20th century to the present.
As I further noted, even in a part of the world where homosexuality in general is no longer looked askance on in a mainstream manner, there continue to be large numbers of men with a preference for pubescent and young adolescent girls that does not typically – if at all – carry over to boys of the same age group. There are also many who share an attraction to pubescent girls and adult women, or prefer adult women, without having a strong interest in pubescent or young adolescent boys.
The thing is, if you spent more than minimal amounts of time interacting with the GL sub-community of MAPs you would likely know this. I try to spend as much time interacting with BLer’s as possible, both here and elsewhere, so I know them well via personal observations, friendships, etc. I also try studying historical BL as well as historical GL so my knowledge on the dynamics and history of intergenerational love is as nuanced as it can possibly be. I still think there are too many even very well educated BLer’s who have but negligible contact with GLer’s, and feel little to no need to do so in order to understand the full dynamics of human sexual and social diversity, due to their political isolation from GLer’s for so many decades. I think this results in a disparity of understanding on many levels.
The BLer fascination with ancient Greece and Rome is fully understandable and isn’t wrong at all, but they should extend their study to the strong man/girl love emphasis outside the Western sphere of cultural influence. Otherwise, their view of intergenerational love from a historical context will end up lopsided and vulnerable to bias.
With this said, I know you have no problem with GL per se, and I thank you for this and enjoy my interactions with you and many other BLer’s both here and elsewhere. Much of what you say is heavily inspiring and insightful, and I hope you will listen to what I have to say here also.

Lensman

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Edmund

You have made an awful lot of assumptions about me here, especially with your continued insistingly inclusive us of “we”, as, for example, in “if you feel that only Western history counts because we are currently living in Western society.” As it happens, I don’t mostly live in Western society, my only degree is in Far Eastern history, and I spend more time communicating in an oriental language than in European ones. So who is making “Western” assumptions here?
I am not ignoring what you say. I have simply repeatedly requested you to redress what you see as the imbalance in my knowledge by coming up “pre-19th century examples of men who both in practice and in intellectual discourse insisted on a firm distinction between pubescent and older girls (as I could very easily do for the distinction between pubescent boys and men).” I wouldn’t have cared whether such examples came from Tokyo or Timbuctoo, but the silence has become deafening.

A.

I wonder if the emphasis on BL (not in all cultures, as Dissident makes clear) isn’t partly a sociological thing. In times and places where childhood, and life, were much shorter than they are now and adolescence didn’t really exist as a construct, pubescent girls may well have been lumped in with women. And the varying timing of puberty muddies the waters slightly. A physically mature thirteen-year-old girl of today often still has quite a childish face. What about a girl who was just starting her periods at sixteen? Did she look as mature in the face as her present-day counterparts? More importantly, if pubescent girls were lumped in with women, why weren’t pubescent boys lumped in with men? Perhaps because in their society it was necessary for boys to go through certain rites of passage to become men, or because of certain formal social stratifications along the lines of master craftsman/apprentice, full monk/novice, that also proved a handy way of separating men from boys. Perhaps also because of an attitude that it was OK for an adult male to have sex with anybody who wasn’t also an adult male, but heaven forbid he should ‘penetrate’ another adult male, because that would be degrading, so we’ve got to be real clear about who are the men and who are the boys here. Hence, perhaps, also, all that banging on about boys being more beautiful, less shrewish, etc., than those awful women. Those were self-evidently the options: boys or women.
Then there is the greater physical difference between boys and men than between girls and women: a greater increase in strength at puberty, in societies where physical strength was very important; all those things such as a deepened voice, a heavier jaw- and brow-line, facial hair and copious body hair that are turn-offs to those who aren’t sexually oriented to men. (My internet travels make me think that ‘anything but men’ likely is a distinct orientation: one guy will post that he likes boys 5-14 and girls and women 5+, with his favourite age being 9-10 for boys and girls both; another that he likes boys 9-13 and girls and women 9+; another that he likes boys 11-15 and girls and women 11+…) And finally, as I think I mentioned above, BLs, including lovers of pubescent boys, are by all accounts more likely to be exclusive than are GLs, probably due to that greater physical difference.

A.

Further thoughts: We look younger longer than we used to. Back in the time period under discussion, the younger you were, the more likely you were to have all your teeth, no smallpox scars, little weathering of the skin from being outside all day, etc. Possibly that led to quite a lot of men who, all other things being equal, would have preferred a maturer woman pursuing teenage girls. And what do we mean by ‘men’ anyway? The beautiful daughter in Marlowe’s The Jew of Malta, whom all the young gallants of the town are after, is fourteen, but how old are the young gallants? Seventeen or so, maybe? To stick within a century or so of Marlowe, when Samuel Pepys at twenty-two married fifteen-year-old Élisabeth de St Michel, it was odd not because she was so young, but because she was broke and he married her anyway, for love, and kept on being very fond of her, despite his various later infidelities with eighteen-year-old maids. The average age of marriage for women at the time was actually twenty-six (and a quarter never married) but if you liked young girls, or happened to like a particular one, the law did not stand in your way. Meanwhile, sodomy was strictly speaking a capital offence, though you had to be pretty unlucky actually to end up killed for it, and the Greek and Latin classics every educated person had read were full of pederastic love. Your average lover of pubertal boys at the time must have had to think about, and try to justify or defend even if only privately to himself, his sexual orientation, whereas your average lover of pubertal girls didn’t necessarily have to.
I suspect that to some degree this is still the case. Even I, who obviously am not privy to male-only conversations, know that men will talk openly with one another about their strong attraction to girls of sixteen and seventeen. If you like ’em a bit younger, but can make do with ‘barely legal’ porn and a somewhat younger but adult girlfriend, you have little reason to ‘problematise’ your sexual orientation. Nonetheless, as Dissident points out, there are plenty of men on GL fora who have a strong preference for pubertal or young adolescent girls. One young man will explain that he likes girls 11-15, that girls as young as 7 can be attractive to him visually but not so much character-wise, and that girls and women older than 15 he mostly just likes as buddies, but there are always exceptions. Another says that his attraction kicks in at 11 or so and that he can be attracted to women up to 40 at least, but that he prefers 13-16, with 14-15 being ideal. A third likes girls 10-14, with a fully mature girl being no more attractive to him than a man or a woman. This preference is strong enough that it’s driving these men to associate themselves with the most despised group in their culture. And if such men exist today, surely they existed before our modern concept of sexual orientation did, too, though they must have thought about themselves differently.

mr pedo-man

Montgomery looked after his health, and exercised regular… Pretty good role-model to me — Can’t believe still no mention of lord Byron — Bisexual in all ways, from what I read.

Filip

Hello A., you write that Dostoyevsky was minor-attracted. Do you have any details, links, … that show that the author was minor-attracted?

clovernews

FWIW this is what Anthony Storr wrote on page 103 of Sexual Deviation (1964):

Since the seduction of children is looked upon with disgust by the majority of adults reared in the West, it is a crime which has a special appeal for those who have a compulsion to act upon the very worst impulses which they can discover within themselves. Such masochistic individuals feel compelled to commit crimes in order to obtain first punishment and then forgiveness. Dostoievsky seems to have belonged to this group; and is said to have confessed to Turgenev that he once violated a little girl who was brought to him in a bath-house. Unfortunately this revelation produced neither the horror nor the sympathy which Dostoievsky looked for, since Turgenev retained the impassive exterior which befits a gentleman or, nowadays, an analyst; and Dostoievsky rushed out of the room in a temper. Whether or not his confession was true, it seems certain that he was preoccupied with paedophilia; for Svidrigaylov in Crime and Punishment is guilty of it; and in a chapter of The Possessed which the publisher refused to print, Stavrogin confesses to the same offence. The compulsion to act out one’s most deplorable impulses is not, however, a common reason for the seduction of children.

peterhoo

This writing on efforts to socially position Lewis Carroll positively inside our social debates about pedophilia as sex abuse reminds me of the same process for Michael Jackson. I am puzzled Tom you did not make the same point.
I was one of the contributors to an Amazon discussion thread as you may recall Tom. A person inside the thread lead a personal attack against my writing because I argued your book on Michael Jackson deserved to be assessed in an open way – the group were strong supporters of Jackson – fandom ruled.
Because I use my real name when I give my views I am now unable to post on any Amazon discussion thread. I have asked Amazon to review this decision twice. The last response made it clear they will not change their view of me and I was warned to not make any further attempts to have my position reviewed.
I can see the value in tracking this process of textual re-workings of Lewis Carroll’s profile. It shows that very interesting relationship between profile/image and the person in themselves being rendered. This connects for me with Baudrillard’s discussion of the hyperreality (an established term inside semiotics and postmodernism).

peterhoo

The Amazon reply stated the decision was final and that no further attempts to have this reviewed was possible. I read a text like this as a threatening voice – “go away and don’t come back”. Oh, Tom my wallet can speak to Amazon any time – my money can speak; that other voice can’t (unless I pretend to be someone else – not sure how the block works – email/name or IP address).

Jasmine

*cough* Tor + Hushmail *cough*
It’s how I get here 🙂

gantier99

Hi Jasmine you make us all sound like a bunch of criminals 🙂
Thought you and others might find this of interest (kind of on topic, just)
http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf

Jasmine

Nice to see you again, Gantier!
You don’t need to be a criminal to take privacy/security seriously. Anyone can do it – especially if they need to use more than one identity. After all, I’m not a criminal (yet; growth mindset) but I sure wouldn’t want my identity IRL to be connected to my opinions on this blog – or even my gender!

Dissident

Your censoring by Amazon is a prime example of how the voice of MAPs and alternatives to the commonly endorsed narrative are routinely stifled by the corporate press, Peter. This is how they create the illusion that there is only one side to the issue. What were the grounds of censoring you? You’re a very adroit and well-spoken man, so I highly doubt you used harsh language or engaged in mindless flaming. I’m sure many of the commentators did that to you, and weren’t censored for it. All I can think of is that they used that bogus “community standards” and “inappropriate comments” nonsense on you.

sugarboy

Sounds like the usual story: “We defend freedom of expression, nous sommes Charlie… but only when it is about hearing what we like to hear!”

peterhoo

Sugarboy, what has concerned me for decades is precisely this inability
for a person living inside Western culture to view themselves as living
out in very concrete ways the core aspects of an ethical life using
Western cultures own terms to define that life.
A minor attracted person can’t live out ethical freedom as a person, nor
can that person live out that call to “be true to oneself”. Labels such
as cognitive dissonance and predator strip the individual of the ability
to endure inside a life. They are blocked from the freedom you refer to,
unable to live openly what defines a good life.
The situation is one where dignity and social integrity can be yours but
only if you lie, you must speak untruths about what sits at the heart of
who you are. I don’t here refer to sex – physical attraction/the erect
penis – I refer to love, friendship, yes erotic aspects of the self, but
a great deal more than the behaviouristic stereotype of the modern sex
abuser.

peterhoo

Dissident you are right. The charge was one of causing offence, a charge the left me not only puzzled but angry. I write carefully and deliberately. I am, for sure, hardly the only man on planet earth to be wrongly accused! What I see as the greatest problem is the market dominance of Amazon. To be blocked from speaking with my own voice and to have my profiles declared offensive when this was invented by my accusers concerns me. Amazon’s centrality in the provisioning of Internet discussions on the books it sells makes me all the more concerned.

Dissident

What bothers me the most about Amazon and all aspects of corporate-controlled media is how private owners do not have to observe freedom of speech. If you say something that offends the owners/administration, or too many of their perceived customer base, they can censor you with impunity. Corporate dominance of the media has the same basic end result as state control: A handful of people have that control, and decide which voices are allowed to speak, and which are “too offensive” for “polite” eyes and ears. As I noted on many occasions, this is the main reason that the illusion has been created over the past three decades that there is only one side to the “pedophile” argument.

peterhoo

I see your observations as significant because I link it to how modern democracies now function. At one level democracy consists of votes, a legislature, justice system, and linked governmental bodies. The private sector plays its role but guided by law. Foucault has pointed out the danger is when minority groups hijack bits of how all that works to satisfy their agenda.
Currently I see more and more examples where democracy is actually ‘held and distributed’ via the media and private business interests, partly because people’s faith in political leaders and other means of change have failed them. Now if a person is poor that is their fate. If the media put a light on the situation, then help is offered. Also, if big business want to improve their profile they ‘adopt’ a person in need and help arrives. Foucault’s exception has become how things work.
I see it as not merely a small group of minor attracted persons not being given access to freedoms they should have via citizenship, what sits behind this is a failure of democracy and its replacement by those who control our resources – media and private wealth. To repeat what Slavoj Zizek is saying – the democratic state in the West has failed us.

Dissident

As I’ve stated before often enough, and which I think is entirely on-topic here to reiterate here: There is an inherent conflict of interest when the political system is ostensibly a democracy but the economic foundation is based on authoritarian control by the few for the ultimate benefit of the few. This is why democratic principles are so greatly compromised by the present day version of the ‘democratic state’ in the West (and elsewhere). It’s simply a nominal democracy within a state apparatus designed to cover for and protect a plutocracy. A privately owned media, among many other things, is no more inherently “free” than when these things are owned by the state.

Jasmine

“A privately owned media, among many other things, is no more inherently “free” than when these things are owned by the state.”
Not entirely true. If the media is controlled by the state then one voice, wrong or right, will be heard. If it’s privately owned a variety of voices are exposed. I significant portion of them will be wrong and, in some cases (like WRT MAPs), most voices may be wrong. However, there is still the opportunity for someone to provide a counter-narrative and document the world from their perspective. I’m pretty sure that’s what’s happening right here at H-TOC.
Then the problem becomes finding and promoting factual perspectives….

Ethanic

I am all for Heretic Toc becoming more mainstream in terms of visibility but this cannot really happen unless the readability issues we have been discussing are resolved.
If Word-Press cannot be tweaked, maybe an alternative can be found?

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