Trans kids 2: The intersex brain

The very large differences between one trans person’s needs and another, which were made clear via the resource guide  Families in TRANSition, at the end of the first part of this blog on transgender youth – and were later commented upon knowledgeably by Peace in the course of some excellent exchanges between readers – draw further attention to the question of what being transgender really means.
For this, that we have to ponder what constitutes gender itself. As Robin Marantz Henig wrote for the National Geographic’s special issue, gender is an amalgamation of several elements, including our biological sex: chromosomes (those X’s and Y’s), anatomy (internal sex organs and external genitals), hormones (relative levels of testosterone and oestrogen), psychology (self-defined gender identity), and culture (socially defined gender behaviours).
What gender includes can be very confusing, though, because it depends on the context. Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955 (long before his now discredited recommendation of surgical sex-reassignment on David Reimer in his infancy). However, Money’s meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. For the purpose of today’s discussion, we definitely need to engage with the biological side.

Intersex model Hanne Gaby Odiele is genetically male but was born with ambiguous external genitalia. At age 10 she had undescended internal testes removed and transitioned to live as a female. But she now feels this surgery was unnecessary. She says, “I am proud to be intersex, but very angry that these surgeries are still happening… It’s not that big of a deal being intersex … it became a trauma because of what they did.” According to the UN, up to 1.7% of the world’s population is born with intersex traits, about the same as the number of people with red hair.
Intersex model Hanne Gaby Odiele is genetically male but was born with ambiguous external genitalia. At age 10 she had undescended internal testes removed and transitioned to live as a female. But she now feels this surgery was unnecessary. She says, “I am proud to be intersex, but very angry that these surgeries are still happening… It’s not that big of a deal being intersex … it became a trauma because of what they did.” According to the UN, up to 1.7% of the world’s population is born with intersex traits, about the same as the number of people with red hair.

The necessity of bringing in biology becomes clear once we begin to drill down into the detail of where gender dysphoric feelings are coming from. Research into foetal growth has implicated pre-natal brain development in the womb. People who want to change their assigned gender usually have completely normal genitalia at birth in accordance with their assigned sex. In these cases there is no reason to suspect a genetic abnormality or any other unusual physical condition.
Intersex, as usually understood, is different.  An intersex person has any of several variations in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, or genitals. Such variations may involve genital ambiguity at birth. These intersex people are the ones who used to be called hermaphrodites, a term that was dropped as it was thought stigmatising. A second type of individual has typical-looking genitals but with internal intersexed features that are not apparent. These are known medically as “occult” intersex conditions. The point is that intersexed persons have, in the same body, both male and female biological characteristics that are typically found only separately in each sex. Well-known conditions of this kind include Turner syndrome and Klinefelter syndrome. Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) is associated with a specific defective gene. There are even mosaic situations in which the same individual possesses both XX (female) and XY (male) cell types. Bizarrely, as reproduction expert Milton Diamond puts it “a person might have an arm considered male because its cells are all XY while the same person’s leg might be considered female because its cells are all XX”. Bet you didn’t know that!
It is hardly surprising that people with these clearly fundamental intersex conditions may be unhappy with their assigned sex and seek sex reassignment surgery, SRS, later on.
However, Diamond has also made the striking claim that there are significant natural in-born sex differences found between the brains of trans people and others that are sufficient “to conclude that persons with a transsexual condition are intersexed. Simultaneously it is recognized that many intersexed persons will switch from their assigned gender, yet many will not. Transsexual people are persons now also commonly referred to as… transgender persons.” Here is his explanation:

It is known that the genitals and brain develop at different times. The genitals develop early prenatally during the first 6 – 12th week and they may develop in masculine or feminine form. If the genitals develop under the influence of the androgen testosterone they are masculinized. If they are not, female genitals develop. In comparison, the brain, it is believed, develops during the latter period of pregnancy and also is subject to the influence of androgen. If there is significant androgen present at that time there will be brain masculinization, if not, there will be brain feminization. It thus is clear that the brain and genitals can develop independently and under different forces.

Thus we have a clear biological explanation for trans children’s insistence that they are a girl trapped in a boy’s body, or the other way around. They may well truly have a girl’s brain – and mind – trapped in a boy’s body or vice versa.
But this is not to say that biology is destiny. As we have just heard Diamond say: “many intersexed persons will switch from their assigned gender, yet many will not.”
This takes us straight from a biologically fundamental point to an equally profound socially grounded one. Whether anyone wants to make the switch will be hugely influenced by what is socially acceptable in any specific culture. Half a century ago in many developed countries including the UK and US, gay sex was a criminal activity and just being gay was heavily stigmatised. In that atmosphere it made sense for many gender non-conforming children to grow up thinking they might be better off if they could change sex. In those days, though, this was a choice open only to a rare few: usually wealthy, independent-minded people who could find a surgeon, perhaps in another country, willing to risk their own reputation by undertaking what was then pioneering and highly controversial surgery.
Nowadays, however, in countries where homosexuality is still stigmatised, sex changes have become an accepted way of avoiding open homosexuality. The homophobic regime in Iran, for instance, is a big fan of transsexuality. It’s a thought that should give us pause. Do we really think we should be in a rush to emulate such a country?
Why should we be leaping to accept the fashionable view that changing sex is such a great idea, bearing in mind that it requires risky measures such as hormone replacement therapy (HRT), which has potentially dangerous long-term side-effects, and extensive, difficult surgery, when for many gender dysphoric people there is an increasingly viable alternative that does not mean rejecting your body? What I mean is that people, especially the millennial generation, are coming to accept the idea that there is a “gender spectrum”. We do not need to make the binary choice of being either male or female. While it is undeniable that only a tiny proportion of the population is transgender (0.3% of adults in the US, according to one scholarly estimate, with a further 3.5% who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual), what matters is that there is  growing public acceptance of gender variance.
Geneticist and paediatrician Eric Vilain –  another sexnetter, by the way, like Bailey, Blanchard, Diamond, Green and Zucker – has a vision for liberating gender expression without going to all the trouble and risk of changing sex. He sees us moving towards a society that thinks beyond gender stereotypes. “I am trying to advocate for a wide variety of gender expressions,” he told National Geographic writer Henig, “which can go from boys or men having long hair, loving dance and opera, wearing dresses if they want to, loving men, none of which is ‘making them girls’—or from girls shaving their heads, being pierced, wearing pants, loving physics, loving women, none of which is ‘making them boys.’ ”
Other cultures have shown that we humans are perfectly capable of such gender flexibility.  One solution adopted by many non-western cultures is, as Henig wrote,  “where a formal role exists that is neither man nor woman but another gender: South Asia (where a third gender is called hijra), Nigeria (yandaudu), Mexico (muxe), Samoa (fa‘afafine), Thailand (kathoey), Tonga (fakaleiti), and even the U.S., where third genders are found in Hawaii (mahu) and in some Native American peoples (two-spirit).”
That said, the right course for some young people will be the fullest possible social and bodily transition. There probably should be an element of pushback from parents and the medical profession in order to test the reality and intensity of their feelings. But not too much. How much is too much? This is a question that would tax the wisdom of Solomon. But if kids pass the “insistent, consistent, persistent” test, it should be good enough, provided that the decisions in question are in accordance with the child’s maturity and ability to make informed decisions.
As I said at the outset, it is not like sexual expression, where simple willingness may be enough. A young child should have free gender expression (without having to face harsh pushback), but it would be mad to let them choose SRS at this stage. Ironically, though, as Richard Green noted in his recent London talk, referred to last time, just a few decades ago there was nothing controversial about sexual reassignment surgery for intersex children from birth onwards – as long as doctors and parents were the ones doing the choosing, which they did with sometimes disastrous results, as in the notorious case of David Reimer, who was called Bruce at birth, surgically changed (with loss of penis and testicles) after a botched circumcision to become Brenda, but reverted to living as a male called David in adulthood before eventually killing himself. This was widely blamed on his traumatic unwanted sex change; but,  as Green has pointed out, Bruce’s twin brother Brian also committed suicide, without having suffered any such trauma.
Green considers that doctors such as John Money, widely vilified for his part in the Reimer case, acted from good intentions because it was considered vital for a child’s welfare that they should appear normal, which meant they had to fit in with the only two choices available, male or female. Also, it was believed in those days that kids would accept the gender they were brought up in. The controversial element at that time was confined to sex change operations on adults: grown-up were not supposed to have such surgery: it was thought freakish and perverted. It was almost as though there was an age of consent for SRS but you were required to be below that age, not above it!
As puberty approaches, a big decision comes into view. To block, or not to block? Puberty blockers can be used in order to slow the growth of sex organs and the production of hormones. Other effects include the suppression of facial hair, deep voices, and Adam’s apples for boys and the halting of breast growth and menstruation in girls. Temporarily halting the advance of puberty in this way is a hugely important option because it gives time for youngsters to mature and think deeply about their future without finding themselves saddled with irreversible bodily developments that would make later SRS less successful. Puberty blockers, like HRT, are a form of hormone treatment, but unlike the former there seems to be little risk attached to their use. In response to a safety scare earlier this month, the US Food and Drug Administration said it was reviewing the situation but was “not aware of any new documented safety concerns with this class of drugs that should change prescribing practices or warrant discontinuation of these medications.”In fact the safety issue seems to be the other way around: not having access to them involves a substantial risk of leading to unnecessary distress that might well result in suicide or a lifetime of regret over lost opportunities.
In Britain, children can be given hormone blockers to stop puberty at the age of nine, male-to-female or female-to-male sex hormones (HRT) at 16, and can undergo a full sex change at 18. I’d say that’s more or less right in appropriate cases.
But a lot of them will not be appropriate. Where kids have been “insistent, consistent, and persistent” since early childhood that they are in a body of the wrong sex, the case for allowing puberty blockers seems overwhelming. Most gender dysphoria (GD) arises much later, though, in adolescence. In these circumstances, in the absence of any evidence of “intersex brain” or another intersex condition, caution is indicated, based on the time-honoured fundamental medical principle “First, do no harm” (Primum non nocere), as reflected in the Hippocratic Oath. It is psychologist Mike Bailey’s view that adolescent-onset gender dysphoria in natal females, especially, “has a strong social/iatrogenic component”.
This last type is being studied by yet another sexnetter, Lisa Littman, of the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, New York, who is currently researching “rapid onset gender dysphoria”. As part of her introduction to a survey she conducted, she wrote:

We have heard from many parents describing that their child had a rapid onset of gender dysphoria in the context of increasing social media use and/or being part of a peer group in which one or multiple friends has developed gender dysphoria and come out as transgender during a similar time frame. Several parents have described situations where entire friend groups became gender dysphoric. This type of presentation is atypical and has not been studied to date.  We feel that this phenomenon needs to be described and studied scientifically.

Quite so. The is precisely the sort of social contagion (which can reverse itself as quickly as it starts) that doctors such as Ken Zucker are very wise to investigate with their patients before undertaking pharmaceutical interventions.
Bailey has identified four types of gender dysphoria, only one of them being early onset with “intersex brain” implicated.  These are: child-onset GD associated with marked gender nonconformity (both natal sexes); adolescent-to-adult onset GD associated with autogynephilia (natal males only); late-onset FTM associated with unusual sexual/gender fantasies (natal females who want to have sex with/as gay men…); and adolescent-onset GD in natal females that has a strong social/iatrogenic component.
Autogynephia is a can of worms I’d rather not open today, as it is both highly controversial and mind-bogglingly confusing. Suffice it to say that it takes us into complex interactions between gender identities and sexual orientations. The idea that sexual motivation could be the underlying driving force for wanting to change sex in some cases tends to be hotly denied. It is seen as a slur. However, for those of us who take a positive view of sex, there is no reason why it should be: a sexual motivation can be as legitimate as any other.
Finally, the future for trans youth is not just about what the medical profession recommends or the law allows. It should be about accepting and celebrating gender diversity, so that youngsters are not put under social pressure to conform to outdated gender stereotypes.
 

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Explorer

Meet yet another candidate for a blogroll inclusion – “Exit Interview”. A website by Gerald Jones, a retired adjunct assistant professor of statistics from the University of Southern California, Institute for the Study of Women and Men in Society, and an intergenrational sexuality researcher and advocate:
http://exitinterview.biz/index.htm
A lot of interesting stuff on his site…

Christian

I saw on French TV a barrister who had to defend in court the case of a man who asked to be recognized as being of neutral gender.

anotherman

so are you angry about milo yianopolous?
I thought the guy was jerk. He wanted to normalize older men, younger boy relationships. He was intellectually dishonest when he attacked George Takei because George takei only discussed his experiences. He then had a media conference where he said he was abused whereas before he said it was “a good thing.” dude, pick one, don’t try to have your cake and eat it too. Either say you thought the law was wrong and your experienced didn’t harm you. Or say your experiences did harm you.

CholerificTerrific

Kwote, TRANSgender BIG Tex stoodent wrasslers ‘n’ gooly grabbers, “Wot no goolies?!”
https://jonathanturley.org/2017/02/28/texas-wrestling/

Libertine

Further evidence of BBC bias; They interview people from, say, NSPCC, NAPAC etc, But when are they going to interview people from the other side like ‘Nigel Oldfield’, Like in Newsnight a decade ago??

SeXentric

TRANSgender children say they’re being denied treatment by the NHS because they’ve sought help from private doctors. Many have resorted to seeking help outside of the health service because they say waiting lists are too long and there are delays in treatment because of lengthy assessments. The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust – which runs the gender identity service for under 18’s – says the wellbeing of young people is their prime concern – but they’re not able to provide ongoing clinical supervision for the management of hormone treatments prescribed or accessed outside the service. Referrals to the Tavistock have reached a record high – more than 1,500 in this financial year already. There are currently 1,200 families on the waiting list and it’s taking them between six and seven months to get a first appointment. NHS England says funding has been increased to meet demand. They say they continue to work with clinicians at the Tavistock and Portman to increase capacity and reduce waiting times ‘as a matter of urgency.’.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08g4720

Explorer

Yet another good place on the Web – now not for blogroll, since it is not dealing directly with intergenerational sexuality, but for the intelligent reading and well-thought opinion – Jerry Barnett’s pesonal website. It author is old-school genuinely LIBERTARIAN Leftists – a guest from the 1960s and 1970s, a time when Left movement, being in its prime, stood for freedom, equality, solidarity and mutuality:
http://sexandcensorship.org/
It was the epoch which provided me with the ideals for which I stand: universalistic solidariy combined with personalistic choice, spiritual search and support of unconventional scientific areas combined with progressism looking forward to star travel and cosmic migration, unity-in-diversity, humanistic optimism and faith in human potential, free speech and free sexuality.
So, it was a great pleasure for me to read Barret. His defence of libertarian universalism against the divisive and authoritarian identitarianism of both modern Victimological / “Social Justice” Left and Alt-Right was refreshing in a censorious and opressive climate of modern politics:
Here is his critiques of both modern dominant political forces – Reactionary Authoritarian Right AND Reactionary Authoritarian Left – from a classic Progressive Libertarian Left viewpoint, as well as explanation why “identity politics” of both Left (SJWs) and Right (Alt-Rightists) is fallacious and counter-productive:
http://sexandcensorship.org/2016/12/censorship-in-the-identity-era/
http://sexandcensorship.org/2016/11/donald-trump-the-identity-candidate/
http://sexandcensorship.org/2016/06/identity-politics-is-killing-solidarity-and-fuelling-fascism/
http://sexandcensorship.org/2017/02/milo-berkeley-and-the-death-of-the-spirit-of-the-sixties/
http://sexandcensorship.org/2017/02/the-far-right-muslim-rape-hoaxes-and-feminism/
The third post of the five I mentioned is a true MUST READ! Rarely anyone described the pitfall of identitarianism more powerfully.

SeXentric

> “All good stuff, I’m sure. I headed straight for the one with “Milo” in the link name, as anything Milo is super-topical right now. Glad I did: excellent.”
Er, wot’s so fucking ‘seXellent’ about a far Right-tard wrong un, cummin’ out fer so called ‘Free Speech’ – while TRASHING Kinderphiles?
Wot’s TRULY needed, R nervy nonce nerds growin’ BIG BALLZ to fire ready primed BIG TANX. Finally TRASHING kid-TRASHING – mass killa WASPS!
All ‘good stuff’ and seXcellent nonce-sense I’m sure, eh wot?!

Explorer

Yet another candidate for blogroll – Visions of Alice, a Girl-Love forum which publishes wonderful Girl-Love Web zines – “True Innocence” and “Alice Lovers”:
https://alicelovers.net/
https://alicelovers.net/ezine.htm
Tom, you definitely know them – the 2nd issue of “Alice Lovers” contains your article comparing and analysing Boy-Love and Girl-Love parts of larger Child-Love / Paed-Lib movement. And a high-quality article it is: I read it, and found it to be as inisightful and eloquent as your works tend to be!

Nada

Those, like Dissident, that, even with the possible use of Tor or proxies, have trouble using GC might consider joining VoA.

Jonathan

Girl Chat is currently easy to access, almost instantaneously, if you have the patience to go through a few Tor circuits. Maybe the reason that it is not moving very fast at all is that people have the impression that it is hard to access. It is not.

Libertine

Check this GamerGate critic out: (s)he’s a White Nationalist, Transexual and paedophile, and reading his (I’ll say his cos I’m a man so I will discriminate because I can)! comments, He doesn’t come across as a novice on the subject of paedophilia.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/09/11/leading-gamergate-critic-sarah-nyberg-claimed-to-be-a-pedophile-apologised-for-white-nationalism/

Peace

I’d really like it if people used the correct pronouns in the very comment section of a piece discussing the troubles that trans and gender non-conforming people face. Denying people their identity is rude, and it doesn’t cost you anything to use the correct pronoun.

feinmann0

When and where it is obvious, yes, I agree, but don’t force me to use anything other than she, he or they (singular) when referring to an individual.
Jordan Peterson: “The demand for use of preferred pronouns is not an issue of equality, inclusion or respect for others. It’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing. It’s a purposeful assault on the structure of language. It’s a dangerous incursion into the domain of free speech. It’s narcissistic self-centeredness. It’s part and parcel of the PC madness that threatens to engulf our culture.”

Dianetical Order

With all due respect, but will you use His Holiness when you refer to me as well? I say because of the known fact that I consider myself a new religious leader, you also take into account my feelings or affirmations too?

Another shadow

Well, it’s all a question of acknowledging people for what they claim to be or not. I certainly don’t recognize you as holy as I don’t share your religion, nor any religion for that matter. So calling you “holiness” would be against my beliefs, and I won’t get out of my way just to please you. But I see no reason not to call “she” someone who feels they are a “she”. It doesn’t hurt my beliefs at all. In any way, not calling someone what they want to be called is disrespectful. It’s up to you what you want to respect or not, as long as you’re aware of it it’s fine to me. I personally don’t respect your new religion 😉

SeXentric

HOT link to Far East lil lurve dolls BIG supplier to U$A/Uptite$exualAssholes & all points un-wild West – now BLOCKED/Non-PC fer un-wild WordPress?
Inter-seX post-Loli Nips supposedly ‘moved on’?
Yet lil Loli Dolls & all-the-rage under age Lolicon/Hentai are STILL out there Webwize Worldwide & WAY beyond (but for uptite BOXED-IN/BLOCKED-OUT fascist phoney fucking ANGLOphonia).
Sooo, here some lil Loli lurve dolls product blurbs. Any offense to mock-sensitive fascist phoney fucking ANGLOphones – is INTENTIONAL!!
“Latest Flat Chested No Breast Young 12 Little Girl Japanese Sex Doll for Men”
“Real lovely medical silicone little girl sex baby doll for man. US $700-1250”
[TOC: An earlier post from SeXentric with a link to child sex dolls advertised online was deleted on legal grounds. The problem is not WordPress but UK law. The adverts in question may or may not have been illustrated. If they were, it seems highly possible they could have contravened UK law.]

SeXentric

Thanx fer the UK legal eagle prompt nod TOC.
Sooo, R the top rated, liberated Far East wild Loli fans’ NON-image lil seX-dolls mild blurbs – uptite-UK AOK?
Hang loose ya’ll tite lil Loli lovin’ UK dudes.
Miskwote ex-Loli Tammy, “Stand UP Ur Man! Sumtimes it’s HARD…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2KP9fYZUWA

Dianetical Order

How do they know that the doll is adult or minor?

Libertine

Should there be an AOC for plastic!

Libertine

I can’t find any information about where he got that doll from. You mentioned
Alibaba.com, Do you have sources for that? cheers.

SeXentric

Meanwhile, back in multi-MILLIONS of guilt-free laughing seXy kids inter-seXt REAL world mercilessly mocking so called ‘Sex Laws’.
Selfie-seXting AND with adults they fancy beyond all control of Uptite$exualAssholes/U$A and co-mass killa WASPS.
v
v
http://patch.com/michigan/rochester/50-sexting-terms-kids-dont-want-you-know

Libertine

Looks like Milo his got himself in some bother when he discussed his homosexual relations with older men, When he was a minor. Though, he does seem to contradict himself in his statement, Judging by what he allegedly said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/breitbart-news-milo-yiannopoulos_us_58ab59e5e4b07028b7030189

stephen6000

Is it? I think it would have been big if he’d stuck to his guns, but he’s retracted, so won’t it largely fade into obscurity to be occasionally dragged up by his enemies when required?

Dianetical Order

This guy made a famous tweet where he said that pedophiles who publicly declared their pedophilia should be locked up for life, as a result of Todd’s famous article in Salon. Which by the way seems to have disappeared, or at least that said someone on twitter.

Libertine

“He thinks his pedophilia might be connected to the fact that he was molested by a German visitor his parents were hosting when he was 7 years old”
Does he not discredit himself by making sweeping statements like that?
Judging by research, and many of the latest blogs on this very site, There is growing evidence, is there not, that, Like homosexuality, Paedophilia is not a learnt condition or preference; It is innate.

Dianetical Order

“In a perfect world there would be no pedophilia”
Good thing the world is imperfect, if not now I would be an idiot looking at a empty screen.

Dianetical Order

– “it seems Milo is one of those people (not unknown on this forum!) who wants to make a sharp distinction between paedophilia (bad) and hebephilia (good).”
I do not know those disordered cretins who inhabits this forum, but if someone says that he (or she) it is not against pedophilic attraction but of sexual agressive fixation and contact with children before their puberty i.e. sexual maduration, he/she must be a divisive and hopeless cretin.

SeXentric

Yeah, another absolutely HUGE FAILURE.
Of Uptite$exualAssholes/U$A, co-mass killa WASPS/UK/CA/OZ/NZ/IE, AND Yiannopoulus all in deep de Nile, WELL away wi’ the fascist Pharaohs.
To even acknowledge that SeXy ADULTOPHILES (pre or post-pubertal) even exist!
v
v
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_Yiannopoulos#Controversy_related_to_paedophilia_comments

Peace

Personally I just hope that Kind don’t take up Milo as some sort of martyr, because Milo is a backwards and terrible person who I don’t want representing our movement. The Kind movement accepting Milo despite his homophobia, transphobia, racism, and other miscellaneous bigotry would not reflect well on us as people. Is it possible to discuss his presence in the context of the way intergenerational relationships are talked about and reacted to? Sure, and I’m absolutely fine with seeing this as an example of the way that ideas about pedophilia and intergenerational relationships are systemically squashed. But I do not want this man to be seen as somebody we accept and idolize, because he is deeply hateful towards many of our members.

stephen6000

I don’t know much about Milo, but based on the little I know, I agree with this.

Nada

But I do not want this man to be seen as somebody we accept and idolize, because he is deeply hateful towards many of our members.
That hardly disqualifies some people, inside of outside, the wider Kind/MAP community, from being accepted or idolized: They are those decrying the alleged bigotry of others, while promoting a view of pedophilia little different from Milo’s.
Here’s Savage[1]:
The same arguments being used against trans people today were used against gay men decades ago. We were a danger to men and boys. We lurked in bathrooms. We had to be kept out of public spaces—parks, locker rooms, toilets—to protect children. It was bullshit when it was used to attack gay men, and it’s bullshit now that it’s being used to attack trans women. Any gay man making this argument needs to have his cocksucking mouth slapped off his ass-eating face.
Yet, Savage promotes the view that pedophiles, rather than gays or transsexuals, are a danger to children and even that 13-year-olds are not ready for sex, certainly not with an adult.
[1]
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/02/20/24881934/milo-yiannopoulos-girls-are-in-danger-when-adult-trans-women-use-public-toilets-but-13-year-old-boys-can-benefit-from-giving-head-to-adult-ma

Peace

But what does it say about us if we idolize this man despite his history of bigotry and harassment? Are we saying that we can overlook these things if he appeals to a very baseline of acceptance of us? It’s the same reason that TERFs are shunned by a large amount of modern feminism – just because they accept feminism doesn’t mean they are accepted INTO feminism, because of their bigoted and often vitriolic views. Even then, he seems to be wishy-washy and switch back and forth between accepting us and then shunning and outing out. Milo is the type of person to say whatever will push the right buttons, and here he just managed to push the wrong buttons for a majority of people. He is a shock artist, a self-hating gay who’s an alt-right favorite for a reason. He is not the type of person I would like the world to view the rest of us as.

Nada

But what does it say about us if we idolize this man despite his history of bigotry and harassment?
When you insist on holding anti-pedophiles (see previous post) to vastly different standard than Milo,what does it tell others about you?
I find Milo’s defense of free speech and outspoken criticism of the current college culture, not to mention his defense of pederasty, to be admirable. Further, his response to actual harassment involves wit, not inane calls for censorship.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/04/22/how-i-ended-up-starring-in-the-most-violent-video-game-of-the-year/
just because they accept feminism doesn’t mean they are accepted INTO feminism, because of their bigoted and often vitriolic views.
Perhaps you’re not aware, but anti-pedophiles and misandrists are accepted into feminism, in particular where feminism is so influential it’s funded and enforced by the state. See the documentary the Gender War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gender_War

Peace

I think it’s interesting that the Milo news broke on this post, as Milo has in the past openly mocked and targeted a trans woman who was attending the university he did a show at (http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2016/12/14/breitbart-writer-targets-transgender-uwm-student/95420206/). My problem with Milo is not just that he is highly bigoted, but that he uses his influence and power to target individuals.
I do not champion people who are openly or violently transphobic, homophobic, misogynistic, misandristic, racist, pedophobic, or otherwise highly bigoted, and I don’t believe I ever have. I do not agree with highly radical feminists, I do not agree with those who feel the need to slander pedophiles, I do not agree with those who viciously harass people.

Nada

he uses his influence and power to target individuals
So does activists, yet you have not attacked them. The cases involving Zucker and Bailay have already been mentioned. Eich was also targeted for having once expressed a political opinion such activists couldn’t tolerate.
I do not champion people who are openly or violently
I find it very improbable you’re able to not only detect, but remove, anti-pedophiles from the movements etc you support. Failing that, it’s merely a matter of time til you do champion an anti-pedophile.
I’d consider it genuine progress were adult pedophiles gently mocked, as the UWM student, rather than denied university education after coming out as pedophiles. I’m also unsure what more the university could have done the individual, while maintaining its evidently quite lukewarm support for free speech.

Peace

I quite clearly said “openly and violently,” as in those who deliberately discuss their anti-pedo views or go after pedophiles. There are very likely bigoted people in all groups (as is human nature), but I cannot hate people for what they do not show. I also disagree that the attack on the student was “gentle mocking,” but I doubt I could change your mind on that.

SeXentric

Agin!
ONLY in kidseX-averse, fucking perverse fascist phoney Anglophonia.
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https://jonathanturley.org/2017/02/22/texas-teacher-fired-due-to-prior-work-in-adult-films/

SeXentric

Anti social aBusive mentally disordered ANGLOS.
Can’t leave laughing guilt-free kids alone to find and make their own rights-or-wrongs of passage (front or rear).
Kwote SeXentric, Y2K+3, “Cotton wool stifling OVER-protection is itself a form of SERIOUS child aBuse!”
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https://www.teensafe.com/?utm_source=broadspring&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=%5BMS_ID%5D&c3ch=Content&c3nid=TS.HWL-How%20Easy%20Is%20It%20to%20Stay%20On%20Top%20of%20Your%20Child%E2%80%99s%20Online%20Life%3F

Dianetical Order

“””””This week, footage of a year-old podcast was unearthed, where Mr Yiannopoulos appears to condone paedophilia.
He said relationships between “younger boys” and older men could be a “coming-of-age relationship … in which those older men help those younger boys discover who they are”.
Mr Yiannopoulos has denied the allegations on his Facebook page, blaming the way the clips were edited and his own “sloppy phrasing” for any indication he supported paedophilia. “It is a vile and disgusting crime, perhaps the very worst,” he said.”””””
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39026870
Peds support LGBT people, peds are not kind but severely autistic people.

Dianetical Order

-Thank you, Dianetical Order (an utterly different person to Order, no doubt!)”
As they say that I am scientologist I can change my form whenever I want, that’s is when you has the power to operate your thetan, just cost me 200.000 US Earth dollars.

SeXentric

The BIG problem!
Multi-millions of innocent kids murdered by mass killa WASPS in 4 centuries on 5 continents where mass killa WASPS don’t belong!!

gantier99

This all reminds me of something I observed at a municipal pool nearby, some years ago. A group of youngsters around 10 or 11, members of a swimming club, ended their training session and went off to their respective changing rooms. One pretty little girl walked purposefully into the men’s, accompanied by one of the male coaches. She surreptitiously took off her bikini top as she went through the door. This I saw from a distance. Not wanting to miss anything, I cut short my swim, grabbed my towel and followed. At this particular pool most still follow the local custom of showering in full view of all, with nothing on. As did she! Now to stare is, as we know, to ask for trouble, but I did notice, out of the corner of my eye, that she seemed to have a respectable little willy, but no scrotum. She was not at all shy, quite happily showering in front of everyone (and perhaps even a little interested in everybody else).
This child seemed lucky enough to have a routine tailored to her needs, but I often wondered what challenges puberty will have brought for her.
As far as children with “normal” physical attributes though, I suspect most grow up appreciating a background level of “normality”, so that they have a sporting chance of easing themselves into a gender role in tune with their bodies. I absolutely agree with the “insistent, persistent, consistent” test, but a good parent will have to tread a fine line between encouragement and restraint. Children are easily influenced after all.
Tom, your mentioning the word “autogenophilia” reminded me of “autopaedophilia”. Both cases of wanting to be the object of your desire, if I’m not mistaken? I seem to remember following a discussion between yourself and James/Jasmine on the subject. I may be mistaken, it was a long time ago.

sickofmisandry

You forgot one Britishman who calls for the EXPULSION of all lgtb’ers, feminists and not — I am by far 1000 times worse than my Russian brother, Vladimir Putin and people like zhirinovaky, gladly want to deport from Russia. The lgtb’ers are sickness and need to be destroyed along with FAG USA. I always will hate the lgtb kids.. yes, even the Paedophile Information Exchange in UK was runned by labour spy Tom O’Carroll (Uk is run by filthy lgtb’ers). The war against the lgtb is starting..

stephen6000

Exactly which planet are you talking about?

Eric

Maybe it’s just my interest in psychology, but comparing Order/Elron (I suppose is a pun on Ron L. Hubbard who he probably idolize) and DeathToSickMisandrists (and other a-bit-misogynist names), I’ve noticed two interesting patterns:
1. Both are politically right-wing to the point of outright fascism. Order/Elron got banned from GirlChat for praising a neo-Nazi religion and SickOfMisandrists (or something) paid several compliments to Osama bin Laden over at Tom’s blog and some anti-feminist blogs.
2. Besides their idolization of right-wing terrorists, they both have obsessions with grotesque ‘correction’ methods. Elron favors Aversion Therapy to normie adult-attracted people; ‘Shapporocidaire’ favors anal ironbar rape to lgtb people. People who’ve read Freud can’t help but notice the obvious ‘take the same medicine’ symbology of both here, sort of in the same way paedohysterical commenters are with stake-burnings (i.e. ‘the fires of passion’).
3. Both are monomaniacs who seem to have a pathological need to force their repressed-by-society sexual urges on the world at large, as though it were some kind of religious mission.
But what is your diagnosis, Tom: they’re both a couple of serious fruitcakes?! LOL now seriously.

Libertine

“But I do feel uneasily that this is a bit like going to a lunatic asylum and laughing at the mad antics of the inmates”….But now it just takes another form, Like the TV show, ‘The Undateables’, On channel four, UK.

Peace

Gender non-conformity is great, and in many cases this is where people will stop – to be who they wish without being chained down by gender expectations and roles. Anyone who claims that gender nonconforming people have to be trans or that you can’t be trans unless you are gender nonconforming is doing a great disservice to society and to the trans community. However, I also think anyone who claims “people should always just accept their body and be gender non-conforming” may miss some of the pain that comes with being trans. You know how sometimes you get stuff like huge pimples on your face and you go through the day thinking everybody is looking at you even if nobody actually is? Being trans is kinda like that. You go out and people “sir” you or “ma’am” you, they give you a once-over, and all you can think about is whether that person or this person saw you as a guy or a girl. You try your best, because you don’t want people to just assume you’re a girly boy or a butch lesbian, but that you are a woman or a man. If you have to show your ID or driver’s license, you pray they don’t make any snide remark about or call attention to the sex listed on it (especially when it comes to jobs, because it’s still legal to discriminate based off of transgenderism alone in quite a number of states). Your life is gendered is many ways other than interests, hobbies, and appearances, in ways that people may not really notice.
I can’t speak to Bailey’s 4 groupings, but transgenderism is still kinda confusing, especially to cis people, so I’m not going to blame anybody for not quite agreeing on a single cause or even a single solution, because these vary wildly even among trans people. Some trans people never get surgery, some get only partial surgery, some are gay and some are straight and some are bi, some are proud and open about being trans while others are self-loathing and stay as closeted as they can. In the cases of HRT and SRS, some trans people feel immense gender dysphoria while others do not, and due to medical reasons some people who want HRT can’t even take it.
When it comes to children and adolescents, I personally feel that respecting their feelings is one of the most important things a parent and health professional can do. If the changes are small or non-reversible, then why not do it? Let them change their clothes and hair, call them by the pronoun they want, whatever. HRT or puberty blockers should be discussed heavily with a trans-friendly mental health professional, as stated in WPATH’s Standards of Care. A big thing to worry about when it comes to transgenderism and minors is how they will navigate school, especially now in America where Sessions is in charge.
The thing with Iran and other countries that still outlaw homosexual acts is that transsexuality becomes then not a person choice borne of one’s gender identity, but rather either not a choice at all or a choice borne from wanting freedom from harassment and stigmatization. The president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has even claimed that there are no homosexuals in Iran (with the undercurrent being that homosexuals must become transsexuals to conform to heteronormative relationships). So I think it’s unfair to characterize Iran as a “big fan of transsexuality” in the same way that many trans people want America or Europe to be “big fans of transgenderism.” There’s a great documentary called “Be Like Others: Transsexual in Iran” that explored the lives and journeys of patients at an Iranian sex-reassignment clinic.

Edmund

Can you please explain the point in having gender recognised by the law at all? It is surely deeply divisive as well as invasive. I can of course understand the point for a discriminatory society that sees assigned roles for males and females as useful, but for this one that purports to want to end gender discrimination, what better way than refusing to recognise gender? No need for the “Ms.” issue, gender-allocated uniform and a host of other controversies to arise. Wouldn’t children be happier if they could wear the clothes traditionally assigned to either gender without worrying about the implications for their “correctly” assigned gender?
But I suspect many “concerned” people would be deeply unhappy to see all this hot air dissipating into the atmosphere. Solutions can be unsavoury in their simplicity.
Edmund Marlowe,, author of Alexander’s Choice, a boy’s love story, http://www.amazon.com/dp/1481222112

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