Today’s guest blog started its life as a letter to me from an old friend I’ll call just Mike. With his permission it is now turned into a book review and a memoir of Mike’s own experience of school life in the not-so-distant, but very different, era of the British Stiff Upper Lip. On a personal note, I might add that the author of the book under review emailed me about 18 months ago as part of his research. Why me? He made some reference to wanting “another voice on the culture” of boarding schools, even though he knew I had not attended one as a boy. Unbeknown to him, however, I did teach and live, briefly, at Ardingly College, a residential school attended by Private Eye editor and Have I Got News for You star Ian Hislop. He was a nine-year-old there in the prep school section at the time – not that I knew him carnally, unfortunately, or at all, as I was with the senior section. I think the author’s real interest, though, was my connection to a former prep-school teacher who is now in prison. He wrote: “I know that you are or were close to Charles Napier, and may think he has been unfairly treated.” Yes, I did think he had been monstrously treated, and still do, as I wrote in Hi, this is Charles. I’ve been a naughty boy…
So, over to Mike’s review:
Stiff Upper Lip: Secrets, crimes and the schooling of a ruling class, by Alex Renton; Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 2017
…
The book starts out well enough. It is a crushing indictment of the worst aspects of private education in the UK. Not only the schools themselves, but the parents who so willingly sent their kids away to board, in cold, cruel environments for twelve or thirteen weeks at a time, at the age of seven, or eight.
Even allowing for hyperbole in some of the complainants, I can clearly remember shivering with cold as I cried myself to sleep in my little iron bed; and at other times chewing my teddy’s ears because I was so hungry.
My second autumn, I cried because I told myself that the pigeons’ cooing in the eaves sounded so beautiful… So beautiful that the sound made me weep? Phew, where was my little head?
It was war time, so the food was doubly ghastly and I remember being made to sit for hours until I forced down a plate of macaroni-cheese — which looked like mouldy cats’ guts chopped up to me — because the rule was that we had to eat whatever was put down in front of us. I did swallow it down, eventually, but then I sicked it up — so the victory was theirs. And, of course, I had to clean up the mess…
Beatings were a commonplace, but enough of my own recollections, wretched though they were. Suffice it to say that I have had a very bad couple of days and nights with the memories that the bloody book dredged up.
Yet these are mainly pertaining to the first part of the book, where Renton concentrates mainly on the coldness and the cruelties of that dreadful system. The attitudes of some of the teachers and these being abetted by the parents involved, and ultimately, by the law of the land, are laid bare. Renton’s views on child cruelty and the wholesale heartlessness of that system chime with mine. He might be speaking for me…
Significantly, he speaks of what I would simply term ‘separation anxiety’ in young children. Kids desperate because there simply was no-one to go to for help or warmth. Except other kids — who also blubbed themselves to sleep…
It is the second part of the book that really depressed me, though. Given that there clearly were some bad and ruthless ‘takers’ among the many teachers, who are now involved with the law — though Renton takes a broad, condemnatory brush to them all. Even senior boys at prep schools (we’re speaking of 12-13-year-olds, now) are condemned for ‘raping’ younger boys. Admittedly he does not condemn coeval activity and in fact, he quotes John le Carré in his meditation on the ghastliness of his own prep school — his first-hand experience of ‘sticky frogs’ clinging together for warmth in a freezing world of cruelty and despair — with the ring of absolute truth…
Dystopic? Yes, and I feel, justifiably so, because one of the things Renton does address is the number of actual suicides among boys in British boarding schools. But returning to Renton’s Poisoned-Gothic style in the second half of his work. He brings on the big guns (sigh) of ‘attack’, ‘assault’, ‘abuse’, ‘molest’ and ‘victim’ as the standard terms, whether or not violence was present.
I know that I am the only one complaining about this linguistic dishonesty: but the whole argument of these passive-resultants — of these ‘victims’ — jars horribly with his descriptions of his own sexual contacts in which his own volition was very much present. So, there is childhood volition, but when an adult is involved, this volition flies out of the window, apparently…
Then, of course, he tries to claim that ‘paedophile rings’ (sigh again) were formed among teachers in prep schools. Operating as wicked cabals, no doubt?
I suppose we should be glad that he didn’t go on to claim baby-sacrifice on the nearby moors at midnight, but really the second part of the book is ghastly reading.
I never had an adult sexual contact at my prep, or my later boarding-grammar school; but there was plenty of sexual activity between the boys, including with younger ones. But the whole edifice rested on consensuality. Only one senior boy, during my time at B—–, actually forced a junior boy and he was beaten up so badly that he had to leave.
I think there is probably a case for suggesting that Renton’s idea of forced sex is at least partially deflated by my own experience, and from conversations with other people who had gone through the same, or similar boarding experiences. That is to say, if you made a proposition to a boy and he said no, you simply smiled and moved on… This was because there were so many other boys who would ‘go for a walk in the water-meadows’. And no, I’m not joking, and I suggest that where there were so many boys willing to play, then rape was redundant!
I sat in the back of the coach on my way home for the last time and I cried my eyes out. I was sixteen and I was off to join the RAF as an Aircraft Apprentice, and sexually speaking, I knew that my life was over! A kind old duck sidled up to me and asked me what the matter was. What could I say? And yes, I did have a bitter sort of laugh about that, later on. And then, of course, I grew up!
Of course, my love-life wasn’t over, but the opportunities for adventure were very few and very far between as I scrabbled my way up through the service to become a pilot. For a start, how could I hazard my longed-for career as a pilot for the sake of short-term happiness? The answer was no, and I only had to read the News of the World each week to know what was happening to fellow paedosexuals… And then there were the Lord Montagu of Beaulieu scandals.
Back to Renton’s book. I admit that it hit me really hard. Not the Gothic descriptions of rapine, but the highly accurate descriptions of, particularly, those abandoned kids at that school’s front door. Renton asks the mothers. particularly: ‘How could you do it?’
The silence is deafening, of course. They would say because it was a cultural imperative and ‘everyone else was doing it’. Damn them!
Another memory. A boy called Harry. He was taller and stronger than me by a long way, but we were made to get into a ring and box. I was terrified, but more terrified of showing fear, so I went at him like a windmill. He simply dotted my nose bloody and then easily knocked me down with a second blow. Then the silly kid got into trouble for blubbing because he’d hurt me!
What absolute bastards those people were. We were seven and eight and we were supposed to act like vicious little men. Harry and I were good friends after that and he pretended to be a useless boxer thereafter. He used to just wave his gloves about and let other kids hit him.
How can I remember what happened as long ago as 1944? Christ, I can remember coming down the stairs to the smell of lumpy porridge in the mornings; the incredible stench of an outside urinal; the swish of the cane and delayed bite of the hideous pain. Oh yes and developing boils on my knees during my second year… Many of us had boils. I wonder why?
Oddly, one of the few things I still like is lumpy porridge. I couldn’t face the day without it! Another positive is that when I went to No. 1 School of Technical Training — where the discipline was fierce — they set their ex-guardsmen drill instructors on us, I just smiled inwardly and thought: ‘This is easy!’
And when the big brutal senior entry came in to wreck our barrack room just before a kit-inspection, I thought nothing of it and had my kit ready in no time. Truthfully, after boarding school, the training centre was a boat-ride.
I urge you to read the book if you have a strong enough stomach.
[Heretic TOC: This marks the end of Mike’s letter, but another one followed, after I told him I wasn’t that keen on subjecting myself to Renton’s antagonistically “Gothic” view of consensual sex between teachers and boys: we are more than sufficiently familiar with the ubiquitous “abuse” narrative. I don’t understand why Renton would be so hostile in the book, given that his attitude to children’s sexuality is by no means as negative as the “innocence” narrative requires. This relative reasonableness comes out in his conversation – we had a lengthy and perfectly amicable Skype chat – and also in an article he did for the Observer in 2014, when he wrote: “Besides, the sexual abuses were, in my version of the story, just detail: the real narrative was of five years of deliberate crushing of our individuality, the suppression of emotional freedom. Sexual bullying seemed just a part of the violence and cruelty that was the basic currency of the school and hundreds like it; the tools with which it squashed our little forms into the mould.” What was wrong, then, he seems to be saying was the bullying, not sex per se. Who could disagree? But let’s continue with Mike’s second letter: ]
From my personal point of view, it is not the detail that matters. It is the desperation that I felt as a small boy, having no-one to turn to for help. When you were very new, trying desperately to remember complex school rules and weird traditions; being beaten for such ‘crimes’ as forgetting to change into house-shoes (sandals) when one came in from outside. Even as a small child, I was forgetful, so I got a lot of ‘stripes’ for that.
As for your attempts to get Renton to see that Charles Napier wasn’t the monster that he claims, well, that’s like the pissing-into-wind, one-sided-argument that we are all faced with in this world to today. The one-eyed paedophobe will go on using his maximum pejoratives, come what may? Regardless of the truth and the realities of childhood volition? And yes, his professional pragmatism as a journalist would have come into the mix of hatred, rage and fear.
And yes, on second thoughts: don’t read the book! It is very depressing! Not least, because of the level of Renton’s obvious obsessive-compulsive ‘pursuit of justice’. Yes, he was flogged to within an inch of his young life by a ‘drunken monster’ — probably a sado-masochist; yet it is the sexual events of prep and public school life that he pours most of his Gothic passions into. So — as you say — he gives the punters what they really want to read? He sells the book with salacious references?
[Heretic TOC again: Precisely! There is a big market for misery memoirs in general but a much bigger one for “sexed-up” misery.]
[…] old friend Mike Teare-Williams kindly gives us his second guest blog today, the first being his review last June of Stiff Upper Lip: Secrets, crimes and the schooling of a ruling class, by Alex Renton. […]
Not on the subject, but there is a new blog:
https://clresearchblog.wordpress.com/
Thanks. This one has started well and will no doubt be developed further. Very promising. I must put it on the Blogroll.
Omnipolitics16 is back on YouTube! His new channel is called “Sexual Liberation Archives”:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAOM97a3hgz0zTVwWK1by7w
I wish him luck – he will need it.
Thank you for your support, people!
Now, after the initial shock has gone, I restored my calmness… and I think my despair might be premature – there is still some chance.
It was an administrator who reacted to the demand to ban me with an order to remove all my posts related to intergenerational sexuality… and it was the founder of the forum, and owner of the website, who intervened and saved my posts which I have not yet deleted (and which I asked the administrator to leave intact… while he was insisting that nothing concerning this topic should be left anywhere on the forum).
As I understood, administrator probably acted on his own – and invited site owner to a closed thread where my case was examined only after I removed the posts on the first-line, podcast-related thread. After he appeared, the owner decided that I may leave the posts which I have not yet deleted.
Since I have very good and long relationship with the site owner, I can try to contact him personally and persuade him to allow me to continue the debate on the thread where I originally started it. I think that he will listen to me, and possibly will agree with me. His tolerance to views differing from his own is remarkably high, so, even if he is certainly opposed to child-adult sex, he may still allow me to defend my case on his forum.
I definitely will not do it right now – I will wait for some months, so passions aroused by this incident will fully cease and fade, and there will be more chance that my words will be evaluated rationally, not emotionally. Then I’ll contact him personally and try my best to persuade him that my case, as well as any other, should be allowed to publicly presented, critically discussed and judged on its own merit, not censored.
Knowing him, and our long positive relations, I think I have a real chance. And I have no intent to give up so easily – as long there is a chance, I will keep trying.
I have some pretty unpleasant – in fact, painful – news to share with you. I won’t be able to publish an essay on child liberation on Skeptiko forum. In fact, I have just lost most (even if not all) what I have published there so far.
It seems now that my freedom to publish on Skeptiko was based on the forum administration being uninformed about my contributions concerning intergenerational sexuality. And this situation ended when one of the members reported my posts, demanding me to be permanently banned for presenting arguments and evidence for consensuality and harmlessness of child-adult sex:
http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/reasons-for-banning-individuals.3379/page-5#post-116120
Happily for me, my hard-won, years-long reputation of one of the best forum contributors protected me from the ban. However, the forum administration contacted me privately and ordered me to delete all my posts on child-adult sex topics. In the same time, posts criticising me will remain intact, thus allowing only one side of the controversy to be presented. And I will have no possibility to respond to these criticisms:
http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/jay-dyer-what%E2%80%99s-the-endgame-for-atheists-352.3861/page-12#post-116126
At least, after a long private negotiation, I was able to let some older posts on the topic – the ones which initiated my child-adult sex debate on Skeptiko – remain where they are:
http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/mind-boggled-satanist-us-army-mind-control-et-al.3493/page-2#post-106432
I reminded the administration that the thread where I posted them is quite obscure one, not related to the podcast around which the forum is centered and therefore not too noticeable to most members of the forum, let alone passing visitors. And that no members who did participated in this thread complained about my contributions – despite their obvious disagreement with what I wrote. And I managed to win this private appeal.
I think I should call them generous to allowing at least old and not-too-visible posts of mine to remain. And for refusing to ban me, despite demands to do it. Maybe I should even feel grateful?
I do not feel grateful at all, however. I feel humiliated. I feel being spat at. I am gagged now, unable to defend my case, to present the arguments for its logical validity, factual soundness and ethical acceptability. My opponents are allowed to claim anything, to use mind-bending nonsense instead of reasoning, to present baseless fantasy as fact, to proclaim themselves guardians of moral righteousness – and I am being deprived of voice that I can raise against their claims. No matter what mistakes they make, I’m not allowed to correct them. I am being silenced.
All what it takes to be silenced is one enthusiastic, censorious which-hunter – and a gullible authority that will follow his demands without any consideration for freedom of speech and debate, as well as pursuit for actual truth, unwaveringly supporting the demands of moral crusaders (as in my case) and uncritically trusting anyone who claims to “speak for victims” (or, even better, presents himself as “the victim”). Or, maybe, it is a frightened authority, one which is simply scared to stand against which-hunter’s demands, since in case of hesitation, let alone refusal, it will be accused by him to be “soft on witches” and itself attacked by which-hunter’s supporters and followers (who may have great strength both in numbers and in zeal).
And one who tries to defend alleged “witches” from nonsensical, baseless and inhuman accusations and persecutions, one who tries to show how irrational, counterfactual and unethical the witch-hunt is, is immediately himself turned into a “witch” into witch-hunters’ eyes, and become next in line for repressive measures. Now I can tell it by my own unpleasant experience.
And it not only myself for whom I feel sadness. Seeing the people whom I knew, even if distantly, for years, whom I valued greatly to be exceptionally reasonable and open-minded persons, able to discuss a topic politely even if being in a strong disagreement with it, turning into hysterical demagogues unable to maintain a free and rational debate and demanding repression against the person who simply tried, in a calm and non-hostile fashion, to demonstrate them their obvious mistakes, is heart-broking. How can it be?! How could they transform from critical, reflexive thinkers into outrage-blinded zealots once the consensual and harmless child-adult sex was mentioned?!
Well, it was the case with the literal witch-hunts of old as well: contrary to a popular stereotype, witch-hunters were not illiterate and ignorant peasants, armed with pitchforks and torches; many of them were well-educated, highly literate and definitely intelligent people. Yet their intelligence suddenly disappeared as long as “witches” were concerned.
So, the conclusion of this long and distressed complaint: my attempt to bring the pro-paedo message outside the confines of the paedo-sphere was not successful. I won’t be able to proceed on Skeptiko, as I hoped, and I do not know any other venue there I have a chance to present my case without my arguments being censored immediately and myself being banned permanently.
At least, I did tried. I put myself at risk, but I hoped that my high reputation would protect me. And it did, at least partially – I’m not banished from the forum, after all, even if I’m ever forbidden from pursuing this topic again and had to remove most I’ve written so far. And even being under threat of banishment, I still managed to negotiate to keep at least a part of my work intact – and successfully so.
I tried my best, yet I could only persuade the forum administration to preserve some of my older and less noticeable posts. The only alternative was permanent ban. Sorry – it seems I failed you as a public advocate, people…
>Sorry – it seems I failed you as a public advocate, people…
The failure is entirely Skeptiko’s, it seems to me. For a forum supposedly grounded in open-mindedness, their behaviour falls pathetically short of their supposed aims.
I do not think you have failed anyone, in fact if they are pedophiles here and have so much interest in defending “consensual and harmless” sex with children, why do not they do it too, or not? Why do not they leave their comfort areas as their chats, to defend themselves?
Although ironically now I had just left a pro-pedophile tolerance post in one of the most visited forums of my language, and I do not think they ban it, because there they allow even Nazism and racism, so hopefully they will see it at least more than 2,000 people, even with a subject so controversially over 5,000 views at minimun, go figure! I’m too snowflake to read the reply comments but that’s the secret of a topic as polemic and hated as pedophilia: let the shit packed and on fire, ring the bell and run away! Those idiots do not deserve my fascist (or your anarchist) intellect.
So I understand how you feel, I hope that Tom does not bother this emotional rant, but that’s exactly what they did to me in boychat and girlchat, not only did they expel me for life without going against any written rules, but it was the people I saw and I admired for years before interacting with them and had they in the top of the pedestal, they threw me in the trash as any household appliance, no matter how much I would have dedicated my life to them an their sexualities.
Even I opened the biggest blog of pedophilia ever known in my language, it was a scandal.. thousands of people watching my blog in just a day and other dozens insulting and threatening me in internet forums, where they asked for my head, in the end the idiots of blogger (google) ended closing it . I was almost on the brink of suicide that day.
And all that, years and years, just living for my “holy” pedophilia (as I called it, such was my dedicacion that became my religion, and is not a way to speak) and.. in a month and a little more, they give me the biggest kick in the mouth, neither a thank you, nor a “you can stay here to speak to others but do not speak more of your “weird” ideas, because you are incompatible with our way of thinking”, no,they just permabanned me and “thank you for expelling from here the Nazi”. Everything displeasure I was, was nothing with all the displeasure that I have lived and I live with for defend this issue.
At least they could have been treated me with decency and say “we understand everything you’ve been through with this issue, you’ve dedicated part of your life to defending pedophilia and that’s why you’ll be the new ” Imperial Marshal “or “Imperialer Chief of staff” anything like that with great titles and resposabilities, for the Services provided, and even if we do not agree at all, you can have a part in this world. ”
But even so, I put my social integrity and even personal integrity in risk to writing in favor of tolerance to pedophiles, even if it is because I can not be with injustices. A pedophile can be weak but to defend pedophilia is not work for weaks.
>to defend pedophilia is not work for weaks.
I think we can all agree with this!
I second what Tom said, Explorer. You didn’t fail us; quite the contrary, you put your neck on the line for both us and for the truth. It was Skeptico who failed not simply us and yourself, but the public at large for denying discussion of a completely legitimate line of reasoning that was backed up by much peer-reviewed, scientific literature. If venues supposedly geared towards allowing open-minded discussion of difficult topics yields to particularly incendiary emotional topics, and bow down to fear of accusations by the victimology crowd, then they not only fail in their stated mission, and fail the very principle of courage required for such a mission, but they also act as enablers for the forces of censorship.
I think Skeptico is clearly not the best place for such an essay, Explorer, despite the hopes you had for that. I suggest that essay be written for Tom’s blog, and you incorporate the situation presented by Skeptico into that essay in regards to the subject of censorship and how it’s one of the most potent tools of the victimologists and the broader forces of truth suppression. Yes, that still keeps the essay within the cloistered realm of the “pedosphere”, but at least it’s out there and has a respected place where anyone seeking to read it can readily find it. The very fact that you couldn’t get it posted outside of the “pedosphere” is an important message in and of itself, but thanks to social media our voices are still out there for all who wants to read them and seek out the legitimate sources we provide.
Thank you very much for trying and putting yourself out there on our behalf. Know that your efforts are never in vain.
It is not at all you who failed, Explorer. It is Skeptiko who succumbed to the prevailing dogma- and miserably failed in the area of rational investigation.
So even if Skeptiko has a large readership it is comprised of Borons (i.e. Boring Morons). That’s my personal opinion!
I will not say this about Skeptiko people, Jonathan – most of them are quite clever and interesting persons. Don’t forget how unusually politely and calmly most of them reacted to my views (even if disagreeing with them completely). But it takes only a very few intolerant yet enthusiastic people to end the discussion and start censorship. And if one of them is a forum administrator, you have real problems.
Mike replies to Explorer, Jul 03.
Yes, you did try your best! How can you say that you let the rest of us down?
Look at the mindless beast that you are facing. Yes, it has intelligence, but it also gets scared? I have said this before, but he would be seen as worthy will not associate with the likes of us. Even where they do see the logic in some of things that we say — they DARE NOT SAY SO!
Mike.
Damn, Explorer, not your fault. Seems like you’ve been doing a fantastic job, and good for you for keeping on trying. I hope it works out.
Sex not Threats?
“The First Time: 28 Celebrities Tell About Their First Sexual Experiences”, Karl Fleming & Anne Taylor Fleming. Descriptions by Liberace, Debbie Reynolds, Art Buchwald, Erica Jong, Jack Lemmon, Loretta Lynn, Dyan Cannon, Joan Rivers, Dr. Spock, Irving Wallace, Mae West, and 17 others. Publ. Berkley Medallion, 1976 (paperback)
https://www.amazon.ca/First-Time-Celebrities-Sexual-Experiences/dp/0425031527
Plus: My first sexual experience – My First Time
myfirsttimesa.com/2013/08/27/my-first-sexual-experience
Aug 27, 2013 … The writer describes her experience of playing doctor doctor with her female neighbours, and how this led to her first sexual experience.
Losing Virginity Stories: 11 Women Open Up About Their First Time …
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/13/losing-virginity-stories-11-women-first-time-having-sex_n_3267987.html May 14, 2013 … And even though everyone had a story about their “first time,” each of those stories is very different. The diversity of experiences shared with us …
My First Sexual Experience – AskMen
http://www.askmen.com/dating/player/24_love_games.html
Feb 1, 2006 … Making love for the first time- What to expect when making love for the first time.
How was your first sex experience? – Quora
http://www.quora.com/How-was-your-first-sex-experience-2
What kind of experience did you have the first time you had sex? Is there an interesting story about the first time you had sex? When was the first time you had …
First time sex stories | AVERT
http://www.avert.org/sex-stis/first-time-sex-stories
Apr 28, 2017 … Read real first time sex stories and find out what to expect. … safer sex beforehand will help make the experience more enjoyable for you both.
Sex: What to Expect From Your First Time | Her Campus
http://www.hercampus.com/love/sex/sex-what-expect-your-first-time
Mar 23, 2016 … Along with tearing the hymen (aka “popping the cherry”), it’s normal to experience bleeding during and after the first time. Liberman says that …
Virginity Stories First Time Sex – Refinery29
http://www.refinery29.com/first-time-sex-experience
Feb 15, 2015 … 24 women describe what it’s like to have sex for the first time. … To show how diverse people’s sexual experiences can be, we asked women …
The 10 Best Stories About the First Time You Had Sex – Jezebel
jezebel.com/the-10-best-stories-about-the-first-time-you-had-sex-1307061147
Sep 13, 2013 … When we asked for the best stories about the first time you had sex, we … and we went on to have a pretty fulfilling sexual experience together.
Lots of links here, Pro-Sex, but have you read any of them? I imagine at least some are about “under age” sex but not necessarily all or even most. A good quote from, or info about, one or two links is more useful than dumping a heap of zero-information data.
And also, regarding the first link: isn’t Liberace notorious for having lied about his early sexual experiences in public interviews, in order to conceal his homosexuality?
As with earlier, and later, links by others encouraging further research.
Hopefully H-TOC’s considerable and still growing correspondents’ base may offer deeper insights to moi ‘Dump’; surely of some interest?
One further question while here.
Is the whole H-TOC archive including many worthy replies by correspondents still available via ‘Search’? And, if not then what’s the point of respondents now posting worthy replies and posts yet unable to re-view their’s and others’ worthy posts and replies months or years later?
Over to worthy TOC.
WordPress software enables any reader to search all the blogs on a site but not, unfortunately, the comments. A more comprehensive search facility, called Omnisearch, is available to site administrators and I do sometimes use it.
The best policy for those who want a record of their own comments, I suggest, or other comments they feel are particularly interesting/important, is to keep a copy in their own files, along with the permanent URL of the blog to which it was posted.
Many thanks for TOC’s prompt reply.
Very disappointing though, and sad, that numerous immensely helpful, learned, and time-consuming thoughtful replies and posts over the years cannot now contribute to the World’s greater knowledge; unless via a largely insurmountable omni-search ‘wall’.
Even that most distorted media mass mind rapist monster Murdoch “an iceberg of relentless inhumanity” to quote fearless, peerless John Pilger, now makes his SUN archive available online with no paywall.
From ‘Sex not Threats’ one might now coin the phrase, ‘WordSuppress’?
As for Dissi’s well noted, pre-‘Gay OK’ victim, and of neccessity liar, ‘Lee’ Liberace.
One might ask how many other so called ‘scholarly studies’ from Krafft-Ebing thru Kinsey, Masters & Johnson, et al, published anecdotal so called ‘evidence’ which Dissi and others might now also critically question?
One’s own particular disappointment now missing here and from it’s original source. Is that of 1990s ‘Out’ bi-Gay UK TV celeb Dale Winton’s bold account of having separately seduced two teachers (a man and a woman) when he was thirteen in 1968, and still unsure of his sexual preference. In his 2002 1st edition bio, ‘‘Dale: My Story’’ (ISBN: 9780712623681, 9780099443155, 9781448135448) he states, paraphrased, ‘‘ It wasn’t abuse, I chose to have sex with 30-something attractive adults. ’’ Yet in later editions, by the 3rd Millenium second decade Anglo extreme PC/Pure Cowards’ not least whining LBGTs, falsely claim their camp icon Dale dutifully waited for the fake Anglo sacred ‘18’ until experimenting with his sexuality.
Pull the other one Anglo PC/Pure Cowards – it’s got BALLS on it !!
https://www.google.be/search?q=(ISBN%3A+9780099443155)&rlz=1C1SKPL_enBE421&oq=(ISBN%3A+9780099443155)&aqs=chrome..69i57.358598j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Meanwhile here’s another Anglo honest bold Dale telling hard-cash truths in modern/medievil Anglo fascist lands of lies. About underage Pupil-Teacher mere sex and grotesquely over compensating (for cash) Anglo fake reactions.
https://dalehusband.com/2016/08/20/another-case-of-a-teacherstudent-sex-stunt/
I answered your question about Dale Winton on 3 March this year when you were writing under the name SeXentric. If you can’t be bothered to save the information I took the trouble to retrieve, why should I put myself out to keep giving it? I am happy to thank you for contributing the info about Dale Winton in the first place (sent under two of your other many names) but not to indulge baseless whingeing.
If you want to see other posts get past moderation, omit (completely) the words “Anglo” and “fascist”. Their constant repetition is devoid of all meaning and is merely boring. You have been told this before, many times. I do not really expect you, as an old dog, to learn new tricks but perhaps in kindness I should remind you from time to time why most of your posts are deleted – many hundreds, I would think, by now.
While most of the comments published here are of a high standard, regular readers will be aware that I am willing to publish material that is very eccentric and/or expresses views totally opposed to my own, as long as something coherent and interesting is being said.
Posts that are merely repetitious and which perform essentially an expletive function of interest only to the sender do not make the cut.
Here again, for the last time, is what I wrote in March:
In reply to SeXentric.
Dale Winton is mentioned in published comments at this site as follows:
1) willistina556 2012/11/09 at 9:42 pm
2) NoNonceSense, 2015/07/23 at 9:49 am
The public Search button brings up results only from the blogs. The Omnisearch button available to the site administrator also searches the Comments. Both elements of the Search tool are provided by WordPress. I don’t think it is possible, unfortunately, to make the Omnisearch button publicly available.
Mike replies to Pro-Sex: ’’ Yet in later editions, by the 3rd Millenium second decade Anglo extreme PC/Pure Cowards’ not least whining LBGTs, falsely claim their camp icon Dale dutifully waited for the fake Anglo sacred ‘18’ until experimenting with his sexuality”.
Most of what Pro-Sex says flies straight over my ancient white head, but the above passage strikes me as a clarion glimpse into the truth of one aspect of modern popular cultural thought. If ‘thought’ may actually be associated with ‘culture’ in any meaningful way!
Of course the ‘respectable’ LGBT community will try to foster the idea that they only discovered that they were attracted to people above the the legal age of consent when they were themselves above that legal age?
As the law stands at the moment, to claim anything else is to admit that one has broken the law? And, to speak the truth about their own early years is tantamount to associating oneself with the hated and reviled ‘child molesters’. In exemplar: to have actually conceived a love for a younger boy, while merely 14 oneself? It being perfectly possible, thereafter, to grow up as a ‘gay’ person and live unhappily disguised as RESPECTABLE.
How many thousands of those whining hypocrites are there out there? Mike.
Well I do not know exactly what are the number of hypocrites, but it seems many.
I encourage MAP people to go to any internet forum, I assure you that they are paedohystericals with Pride 2017, and everyone using the issue of “pedophilia” compulsively, I explain:
– the pro-LGTBers denounced all things against LGTB of “pedophilia”: Catholic priests, is the most. Also justifying his LGTB with is “between consenting adults”. There are dozens of post only in the last 24 hours with disgusting trash of “homosexuals do it with people older than 18 years, instead catholic priests do pedophilia”
– the anti-LGTBers accusing them of pedophilia and child molestation. That simple. As usual.
And that to ALMOST 20 post of “you are more pedophile” per hour, and in a single internet forum. go figure!
Also look at the same forums (both heteros and lgtbers) as they treat sex and relationships like animals, now look at a MAP forum where they talk about the most higher love for boys and girls. I think they are nothing more than irrational animals and that is why they exterminate us, nothing more and nothing less.
This is what happens when you have schools based on authoritarian control rather than democratic principles of mutual respect between the age groups, like the youth rights-friendly Sudbury model. The model described by Edmund is an even more extreme expression of the Prussian military methodology that was adapted into the “education” (read: schooling) system of America. I find it utterly nightmarish to learn of another schooling system where it was even worse, considering what I experience in the American system. In America during the 1970s and ’80s, teachers routinely used physical discipline combined with humiliation and serious verbal abuse to keep kids “in line.” The psychological effect it had on me resulted in damage and horrifying memories that literally haunt my dreams to this day.
I can only imagine what my experience of those old British boarding schools would have been, as the less extreme American version of public schools was more than bad enough. All I know is that this type of authoritarian schooling needs to stop. Even the less extreme versions of it. It literally invites bullying and abuse from teachers, and gives them a free pass because they are the “adults” and the people they disrespect are “kids.” All but the most outrageously extreme forms of physical and emotional abuse, including liberal use of humiliation, are considered “discipline” rather than abuse when inflicted on younger people by adult authority figures.
Growing up far removed in space and time, and social milieu, from all of this, I was indelibly impressed by the extremely vivid descriptions of school canings, and of homesickness, in Roald Dahl’s Boy, which I read while still at school myself. It’s a popular book and must, by now, have made a similarly strong impression on multiple generations of kids. Though Harry Potter apparently caused an uptick in boarding-school applications in the late 90s!
I must get round to reading Royston Lambert’s 1967 book The Hothouse Society: An Exploration of Boarding-School Life Through the Boys’ and Girls’ Own Writings. Turns out Lambert also wrote a book on the Roman emperor Hadrian and his young boyfriend Antinous.
A, you’re back!!! Finally!!! 😀
Aw, cheers D. 🙂
Regarding what you said above, do you have any French? If so I highly recommend (if you haven’t already read it) a 1976 book called Les écoles sauvages, by Luc Bernard. Bernard observed a series of alternative schools throughout the country: the book’s valuable, I think, because he isn’t dealing with the theory, but with the practice. Some were fairly mildly alternative: primary schools with lots of outdoorsiness but conventional reading, writing and ‘rithmatic lessons; a small boarding school for boys about 11-14 who were having difficulty with the mainstream education system, run on quite conventional lines, but with an unusual amount of input from the kids themselves, almost singlehandedly by one very devoted teacher (a BL?). Some of the more daring experiments included three kids and a couple of adults on a ship travelling round the world. Bernard wrote up his observations in a fair-minded manner. IIRC, the main problems in the primary schools were that when the kids were left to themselves the stronger, physically and personality-wise, tended to dominate the weaker, and that parents were heavily involved in the teaching and despite their best intentions tended to favour their own kids over the others. There were fewer secondaries and fewer kids in them, and to a certain extent those kids were a self-selecting group, so there weren’t as many problems to point out, besides a few teens who, finding themselves left largely to their own devices, did very little. And some of these experiments in alternative education did seem notably successful, especially given that they were mostly fledging, underfunded projects.
Maybe I’ll translate some bits of the book when I have the time. That’ll be some way off, though!
I do like the sound of this school and its head:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/9692464/This-playgrounds-lawless-and-kids-love-it
http://nationalpost.com/news/when-one-new-zealand-school-tossed-its-playground-rules-and-let-students-risk-injury-the-results-surprised/wcm/d33f1216-bc3b-40e6-abc5-f278792a3717
Thank you, A! Alas, I do not speak or read French, and as such, it would be awesome to have you do some translations from those texts so I can give a full analysis of them 🙂
I’ll get on that…sometime. Maybe in six months or so. There’s also a book called Il m’aimait, by Christophe Tison, that I should maybe translate some excerpts from: it’s a slim memoir of the author’s emotional and sexual relationship when he was 10-15 with a man about 20 years older, and his ambivalent feelings about it. And there’s also a valuable set of articles about pregnancy among underage girls in the no-abortions-allowed parts of Latin America that I’d like to translate sometime.
As far as boarding schools are concerned, Its true that things are better than they were. Though corporal punishment was illegal, We still got a beating at my boarding school that I attended in the early 90s. It was closed down after many complaints. There was not much that I knew of as far as sexual coercion was concerned, But there were a few nasty members of staff who would take their inadequacies out on the boys.
As somebody who attended that school said..”fancy parents sending their kids to be looked after by a bunch of thugs”…Indeed, some were, But not all.
The principal was a warm and friendly man who, when he was in charge, I could relax somewhat, and not feel on guard not to say the wrong thing etc.
I remember being forced to finish the curry made ‘en masse’, the sultanas in it made me feel sick; The female member of staff was obviously feeling like a bitch that day. I didn’t touch curry for about a decade, These days I don’t mind a mild curry, But it must be sultana free!
I am mostly commenting because, although I think Mike and Tom’s comments just about imply they are aware of the parallels between Renton’s campaign against boarding-schools and the Sex Abuse industry’s campaigns against adult/child sex, they have not brought out how exact these parallels are.
Before going any further, I had better briefly outline my own experience, otherwise Rentonites will say, first, that I don’t know what I’m talking about, and next that I am “in denial”. In refutation of both, I will say that I was sent at eight to a prep school I hated. Mike is a generation older than me, but though not all the horrors Mike describes applied to it, some did, and I was sufficiently far from being in denial to be the first boy for many years to run away from it. For this, I came within inches of being caned by the headmaster in front of the whole school, and was only saved because the same very kind man, to whom I had been a known favourite, suddenly found he couldn’t go through with it. It turned out lucky that I did run away though, as it shocked my parents into sending me instead to a much nicer prep school, where (and subsequently at Eton), I was mostly quite happy.
So much for one boy’s experience, no more or less valid than Renton’s. As to the latter, I would remark, first that I had heard from mutual friends that he was unusually unhappy at boarding-school long before he started turning this into a cause celebre. Secondly, while I was at Eton and boys told tales of their prep schools, Renton’s had a firm reputation as uniquely horrific.
The lesser, but still considerable argument against Renton’s views is that the horrors he and Mike speak of have long ago been done away with. For example, there is no corporal punishment, every school takes a strong stance against bullying and the food is excellent (in two cases I know well, literally like a five-star hotel). I know this because I have sent my own sons to prep school at slightly later ages with their much-discussed and rescindable consent. I hear on the telephone every single day what life is like there, and I would characterise it as a hard-working, hyperactive, luxury holiday camp. The numbers attending English boarding-schools are testament to parents’ awareness of this. In severe decline in the 1980s and 1990s, they have been rising sharply since then. With a third of the pupils now foreigners, boarding-school is one of Britain’s most sought-after service industries.
The greater argument brings me to the parallels I spoke of. Renton/the sex abuse industry, take the genuinely miserable experiences of some children and encourage them to blame all that is wrong with their lives on it. Others who had previously thought of themselves as having happy childhood experiences, are cajoled into rethinking their experiences. If they cannot manage this, they are accused of being “in denial”. In fact, according to the imposed dogma, an experience can only be valid if it was negative. The positive ones can then be ignored at any cost in suffering to individuals. In my experience, the mantra adopted by the generally ignorant followers of the dogma is similar too. Saying what I am usually results in a furious bleating of “it’s always wrong to send children away from their parents’ love” just as pointing out that some adult/child love affairs have been good leads to a bleating of “it’s always harmful.”
I would not hesitate to describe Renton’s book as evil. I think it is dishonest, because I don’t think he is blinkered enough really to believe that happy boarders are always in denial. He is ignoring the blatantly obvious fact that boarding-school should be a personal choice based on the particular child’s personality and needs. Prep schools today are the first to warn parents of this. By contrarily dishonest means, Renton seeks to deprive countless future children different from him of something they often do want and do benefit from. His success would not cause the suffering the sex abuse industry has, but it has the same rotten principle.
Any child-lover persuaded by Renton should have no hesitation in signing-up to VirPed.
Edmund, author of Alexander’s Choice, an Eton love story, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alexanders-Choice/dp/1481222112
I never realized we agree on so many things, Edmund! 🙂
Thank you for that reasoned response, Edmund. I was too emotional in my two Heretical letters and I admit that I missed several important points.
Looking again at Renton’s book, and in the light of your comments and others on this blog, I wonder if Renton truly is one of those obsessive ‘hatred rage and fear’ fanatics that I mention in my second letter?
Is he, rather, one of those cold pragmatics who go along with the flow and simply espouse the publicly allowable dogma of paedophobic condemnation?
The one-sided argument his adopted stock-in-trade?
Mike.
I haven’t read Renton’s book, just some reviews and newspapers articles he has been successful in publishing to promote it. So far as I know, there is nothing original in his arguments. He has simply jumped on the bandwagon started by a man called Duffell, who for two decades has been building a career out of promoting ex-boarders as victims and calling for the illegalisation of boarding for under-14s.
As you suggest, I would guess Renton (as well as Duffell) is being coldly pragmatic about the sex, rather than furious. It is extremely useful to them that the public is already in a rage about this component of old boarding-school life and helps to tarnish the rest.
I do understand your point, Edmund… It reminds of one particular aspect of modern SJW-types’ thought that I find no less unpleasant than approval of censorship – negative re-writing of history. If one would believe everything that modern SJWs are telling, one would be left with a strong impression that social struggles of the past were a total failure; with the notion that non-whites, non-heterosexuals, women and children are repressed as mercilessly as they were before the mid-20th-century rebellions. As you correctly point in regard to children, this point is just evidently false; I would add that it is also unpleasantly disrespectful to the successes of the Black / Gay / Woman / Child Liberation movements of previous era.
Yet it does not mean that everything is all right now – far from it. The threat that children – and, subsequently, child-attracted adults – are facing now is not explicit and obvious repression of the past, but benevolence gone wrong – the “child protection” theory and practice. Unlike the former merciless attitudes to children, based on exposing them to pain and stress “to build character”, modern exaggerated and counter-productive “protection” wants to deprive the child of any freedom to protect him not just from any real hurt, but also from a wide range of entirely imaginary dangers. Especially from any manifestation of consensual sexuality. Especially if this consensual sexuality is also intergenerational – this is, involves adult participants.
So, the situation in which child liberationists are facing nowadays are far different from the one that was faced by their predecessors in 1960s – 1970s. Then, it was much easier, since the opposition were in favour of open and enthusiastic cruelty toward children; it is not hard to demonstrate both harmfulness and wrongfulness of a severe public beating of a child. Now, child liberationists have to oppose people who sincerely wish to defend children from harm – and yet continue to harm them because of their defensive attempts being either excessive, or misguided, or both.
There is a site I once encountered, which is dedicated to a detailed critique of an authoritarian pedagogy and schooling – especially the one practiced in British boarding schools. It is made by a guy called David Gribble (heard about him?):
https://www.authoritarianschooling.co.uk/
What I liked about this source is absence of the standard “sexual abuse” stories… at least, as far as I can remember – I don’t have the time to re-read the whole site right now. But, at least, the list of contents doesn’t contain anything “sexual” – it is about psychological and social (and, in author’s memories, also physical, in form of beatings) abuse and opression of children.