A Gen Z vision of MAP anon strategy

Today’s guest-blogger is Liana Lial, a recently-out Gen Z transgender girl, familiar as a Boychat poster in recent years. She has previously written for NAMBLA (“Defeatism and Hopelessness”), as well as the prestigious Dutch student newspaper Propria Cures under the pen-name Laurel with her Coming Out story, wherein she recounts her struggles with family and bureaucracy as a young teenager. Since then, she has only grown more interested in advancing the autonomy of youth and youthlovers alike, attributing many of her beliefs to pre-existing anarchist principles. She spends much of her time reading about historical social and political movements, and she is currently writing a story about inter-generational love. She hopes to further pursue writing in addition to computer science, cybersecurity, and punk music (if, as she puts it, she “ever gets around to learning guitar”!) Like the rest of the blog, the “important note” below was written by Liana Lial.



IMPORTANT NOTE: All actions proposed should and must stay within legal confines, regardless of opinions on whether or not any particular action SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be illegal. The use of encrypted communication does not and must not entail correspondence that would be illegal. The use of encrypted communication is for privacy and anonymity, and these two things do not entail illegal action, but rather a desire to proclaim one’s right to privacy in an increasing age of mass data-collection, and all the misuses of said collection. I am advocating the careful, legal use of communication for protected, legal assembly and speech.

1.  Surveillance State & Encrypted Contact

The modern state of surveillance harshly restricts the assembly of youthlovers, whether for casual interaction or political advocacy. There are some notable exceptions, such as the workshops of B4U-ACT, which have been created with great care so as to secure their existence. By and large, however, most are not willing to engage in activism with potentially devastating interpersonal consequences. I suggest that the veil of digital anonymity could circumvent this issue to some degree.

The use of anonymity to engage in political organizing is well established. The ’50s gay rights organization in the US, The Mattachine Society, followed a security protocol similar to their contemporary Communist party. Participation entailed oaths of secrecy and membership levels based on commitment. In more recent times, we have seen the rise of the Black Bloc, most strongly associated with anti-fascist and anarchist protest. The anonymity provided by the uniform black attire has allowed mass protest to ensue while decreasing the amount of arrests that could be gained from identification (regardless of actual criminal wrongdoing).

Participation in this early US gay society entailed oaths of secrecy.

These measures were necessitated by policing, and whistle-blowers such as Edward Snowden have shown us that the need to avoid surveillance has only heightened. This increased digital surveillance has given rise to publicly available encryption software such as Veracrypt, TOR, Tox, Signal, etc., alongside a number of Linux operating systems that encrypt disk-drives. I myself use Pop!_OS.

Although there is a time and place for actions with identifiable faces, that time is not now for most. With a need to spread positive rhetoric, but immense risk of outing, there needs to be a melding of public-facing action with anonymous participation. My suggestion is thus:

Spread knowledge, in your local jurisdiction, of encrypted spaces wherein discussions of youthlove advocacy can take place. These spaces can be used to discuss specific actions or broader plans which can be carried out concurrently, but physically separate. To illustrate, someone learns of such a space through some graphic in their town. This person can send encrypted messages to the creator, and thus discuss potential actions, all anonymously. The amount of information anyone is willing to give can vary from person to person so as to create as anonymous an environment as needed. This sort of organizing is small and extremely local, but it could help form the building blocks for broader organizing. To allow organizing to broaden in scope, we’ll need methods by which to securely spread information.

2.  Anonymous Journalism

Anonymous action being supplemented with anonymous journalism has its own storied history. The Daughters of Bilitis circulated The Ladder, the lesbian equivalent to Mattachine’s One, Inc. These journals contained short stories, poems, and news. A major goal of The Ladder was to provide isolated lesbians with an alternative to the heavily policed or mafia-run gay bars that were signature of the time. Like Physique Pictorial magazines, the newspapers were distributed with brown paper coverings. The journal was obtained by word-of-mouth, and anonymous mailing lists were the norm. In one issue of The Ladder, under a section labeled “Where Did We Get Your Name?” we see:

A certain amount of anxiety has been created, apparently, by the widespread mailing list of THE LADDER. We wish to emphatically deny the use of ONE’s mailing list, or that of anyone else, for that matter. We have literally badgered and bullied everyone we know for names of friends who might be interested in the ladder These friends have sent in names of their friends, and so it grows. To those of you who thought ONE has broken its pledge to keep its mailing list inviolate, the answer is that it did not [. . .] If your name is on the list, then a friend of yours sent it along.

Within each issue, too, the mission statement of the Daughters of Bilitis would be printed:

1. Education of the variant…to enable her to understand herself and make her adjustment to society…this to be accomplished by establishing…a library…on the sex deviant theme; by sponsoring public discussions…to be conducted by leading members of the legal psychiatric, religious and other professions; by advocating a mode of behavior and dress acceptable to society.

2. Education of the public ..leading to an eventual breakdown of erroneous taboos and prejudices…

3. Participation in research projects by duly authorized and responsible psychologists, sociologists, and other such experts directed towards further knowledge of the homosexual.

4. Investigation of the penal code as it pertain to the homosexual, proposal of changes,…and promotion of these changes through the due process of law in the state legislatures.

The Ladder and One, Inc would serve as predecessors to later Gay Liberation journals such as Come Out!, Fag Rag, or the NAMBLA Bulletin, just as Edythe Eyde’s Vice Versa had done for the Daughters of Bilitis.

Anonymous journalism has stuck, too. Take the organization CrimethInc. This organization is an anarchist collective of autonomous cells (groups which can act independently of the whole) dedicated to distributing pro-anarchist analysis and news. All this while functioning entirely anonymously. As their “About” section reads:

CrimethInc. is a banner for anonymous collective action. It is not a membership organization, but a mouthpiece for longings that extend throughout the population at large. Anyone can be CrimethInc. — it could be your next-door neighbor or the person sitting beside you on the bus. You and your friends already constitute an affinity group, the organizational model best suited to guerrilla tactics, ready to go into action against all the forces that threaten your freedom.”

The name of this anarchist collective evokes the concept of thought crime, from George Orwell’s classic novel, Nineteen Eighty-Four.

A similar system of anonymous journalism could be used to publicize, to even some small degree, the actions and rhetoric of the smaller affinity groups established under the methodology of the prior section. This could further encourage similar action elsewhere, or grow the numbers of pre- existing groups. Such a journalistic group could form through the same means as presented in the prior section.

The specific functioning of such a journal could be varied, and the subjects reported as well. It is possible for material to be produced by many outside of the website hoping to spread information on local activities, just as this site accepts guest bloggers. This format, by allowing for coverage of events not merely witnessed by the participants of the organization, allows information from all across the nation (or nations) to come into the stream of information. (This, it should be understood, comes with the caveats of language barriers.)

2a. Verification and Chapters

A hurdle which could be encountered with such a publication would be that of verification. The likely anonymous nature of many reports could cause difficulty with the verification of certain stories. To this point, the solution I propose is three-fold:

  1. Through encrypted contacts listed on the website, one could speak with other small groups. These groups, if willing, could serve as trusted chapters/affiliates to the journal. The specifics of verifying these affiliates could vary by specific circumstances. However, anything which might ensure reliability without reasonably risking anonymity would do.
  2. If complete reliability cannot be attained, either do not report the story or expressly acknowledge limitations. Report as true only what can be verified as such. Report all else with the heavy caveat that it was reported with no method of perfect verification, and must only be spoken of in terms of “likely” and “not likely” true. Constraints on the publication and informers are likely to restrict expansive access to information.
  3. Build trust and be secure! If any potential participants know that their information will be handled securely, both in the method of communication by which it is gained and who it is revealed to (or rather, veiled from), they are more likely to volunteer information that will be of value to news coverage. There will be less fear that giving too much information will lead to a breach of their own security and make them a victim of doxxing.

3.  The Goal of Anonymous Action

The anonymous advocacy I propose should be seen as a means to an end. The need for anonymity proves the severity of our oppression. The actions taken by the pioneers of gay activism were surely taken in the hopes that they would one day be unnecessary. I approach the issue with the same mindset. The goal, then, of anonymous advocacy is to increase visibility and awareness to a point where people feel empowered to come out and exist as youthlovers in a public fashion.

The Mattachine Society’s “homosexual viewpoint” was expressed through One magazine.

If we were to analogize with gay history, we are in an era comparative to that of the homophile movement, wherein the Stonewall Riots had not yet happened and a real rhetoric of Gay Power was not fully articulated. Society was still stuck on what Harris Mirkin called Phase 1, which consisted of dismissing dissidents. In his text The Pattern of Sexual Politics: Feminism, Homosexuality, and Pedophilia, Mirkin labels that first stage the battle to prevent the battle. In this period, there is an “overwhelming emotional and intellectual consensus” on the matter at hand, and the minority group is not yet fully conscious “of themselves as a group that has a right to make political claims.”

Thus, anonymous activism serves as a stepping stone by which we can enter public consciousness as a minority group that can, does, and will continue to articulate demands and claims counter to the dominant, incarceral narrative towards youthlovers. It is unlikely that this effect will be created quickly, and immediate reactions will largely include dismissal. The effect is cumulative and actions must be taken repeatedly so as to be understood as expressions of long-standing dissidence. This will bring us into a phase of struggle where it cannot be denied that there is a question to be answered, and a community of people to speak to.

These actions should be both outward and inward. We need to reach and educate both other youthlovers and teleiophiles. All the specific tactics and actions that anonymous groups established by earlier instruction might undertake to reach the latter group is outside the scope of this particular essay. However, the former brings us neatly onto the topic of mutual aid.

Mutual aid is a topic which comes up significantly in anarchist circles. It is the mutual assistance, through resources or services, of one another. Though simple in concept, I would posit that it can have significant ramifications. There are a great deal of ways in which being a youthlover can impact the situations one faces, and many of them could be made better through mutual support. I hesitate to define the perimeters of “support” because it is intentionally encompassing. It could be financial, if someone is facing financial trouble. It could be supporting the mental health recovery of a peer or simply providing close, friendly connections. In short, a support network.

By making each other’s lives markedly better, we give ourselves more stamina and strength to actually advocate and take action without feeling at risk of complete collapse.

Yet, with the veil of anonymity, this can be difficult. To assist someone, it is often the case that one will need to concede a certain level of anonymity (although perhaps not completely.) This further cements the necessity to push our cause out of the underground, but solutions must be proposed in the meantime. The nature of being a youthlover is that, unless you keep your sexuality entirely to yourself, you put yourself at some risk. We constantly play with risk-benefit analysis. Although unfortunate, just as it might be risky to spread awareness of communications (even if  the communications themselves are secure), it is going to be necessary to navigate risk if one wishes to provide support.

The lesbian mag The Ladder was distributed anonymously.

To mitigate risk, I can only suggest a thorough, if malleable, vetting process. I would not feel it wise to suggest a clear, rigid set of rules for others to follow. I cannot predict with accuracy the circumstances one might find themselves in. Instead, I can only suggest that any method produced still reasonably secure anonymity, even if sacrificing privacy, the difference being that the former hides person and the latter hides what stems from the person (e.g., one’s behaviors, actions, writings, etc.)

If, despite all measures, support cannot be given in a fashion deemed reasonable by participants, then I can only concede that the group merely continue with political advocacy. This outcome is unfortunate, but I cannot rightfully suggest a group go against their better judgment of a circumstance.

4.  Concluding Statements

I have written this in the hopes of providing guidelines for anyone else who believes themselves capable of advocating for youthlove, but feels that they have no method of doing so in our current climate. It is understandable to be cautious, and in some circumstances, it is right or even necessary to wait. Despite this, action need not be completely eliminated from our minds in the years to come.

You might find that at some points, I was not sufficiently specific with steps or actions. This was intentional. As I have repeated, there is a level of idiosyncrasy to one’s life that I cannot account for. I would not want someone to conclude that because they cannot take a specific action listed, that they could not take an alternative action. It is my desire that these guidelines will prompt even one hesitant-yet-antsy youthlover to get in touch with other youthlovers for the purposes of advocacy.


Liana (or, Lial, depending on where you talk to me!)

Security concerns, and reassurance, expressed in a page of The Ladder.
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Heres a joke for you- Girl sentenced to life in america for drug driving when 17.

Take a photo of her get life. Hypocrisy at its most insane


Non-graphic true tales and minds of pro-active AAMS.

1990s middle-aged straight (not Gay/Bi) Bold Map entered a middle-class London suburban Springtime park ‘cottage’ to check the pre-Web walls for HOT Loli tales/drawings. As he waited for the occupied two stalls to clear, an unknown pretty lad, just 14, who had been ‘normally’ kicking a ball around the park with his rough mates, suddenly appeared and stood at the urinal. Then boldy grinned up at Bold Map, while fast wanking not steady peeing!

Shocked, Bold Map looked around for a ‘honeytrap-sting’ as the AAM darted into the first vacant stall, then turned and finger-beckoned Bold Map to join him; as the second stall emptied and they were alone in the cottage. 

Streetsmart Bold Map whispered close, “Piss off!! I’m an old man and I’d get 10 years just for being in there with you! Does your family know what you do, have you got any brothers or sisters?” 

AAM, “My sister’s eleven but she knows nothing about sex, so dont tell her, or my mates, about me if you ever meet. Anyway it’s OK here, you’re lovely cum on!!”

And, Bold MAP clearly not his first or only ‘fancy’. Sometime later in late-Summer the same scenario occurred, when the AAM confided that he’d had a great family holiday in Devon where handsome young travelling salesman, some happily married, had paid him £20 pounds for sex in English Riviera HOT bogs, though he acted purely for Love of Lust.

StreetWise ‘Love Magnet’ Bold Map quipped, “No offence, but I’ll pay you £50 to Fuck Off!!”

Go figger?

Last edited 10 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Same long-hot summer. ‘Love Magnet’ Bold Map was invited to visit a long lost non-Map pal by then wed with two kids, Laddie, 8, Loli, 6. As soon as the Loli, fresh from school with her Ma, saw Bold Map she turned panty-flashing leggy cartwheels on the back-lawn while eyeing Bold Map but calling, “Daddy, Daddy look at me!” Then at Tea, to the amusment of all she boldly kissed Bold Map’s clean shaven cheek (compared to her beardy Dad). By the end of the two-day visit with fun piggy-backs and romps, the pro-active AAM HOT Loli giggled and ground herself on Bold Map’s lap while whispering, “You’re not married are you? And you can kiss if you’re in Love – can’t you?” A long distance lovely short-visit, sadly never repeated.

Go figger?

Last edited 10 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

By 2020, c.75% of the world population used smartphones. In 2022 alone, 1.43 billion smartphones were sold worldwide. 

So, 29yrs since pre-Web unnatural populist predaTory UK Home Sec COWARD Howard in 1994 criminalised all natural C.P. By early-Web 1999 (change hands?) a victim MAP told Bold MAP that porn Cops told him they just can’t stop natural C.P. being ‘stumbled upon’, quote, “Its like trying to stop a waterfall, and 80% of the Internet is SEX!”

And now, nearly 25% into Century 21 ubiquitous PhonePornInThePockets/PPITP, squares the natural self-made C.P. circle. With unnatural Victorian ‘laws’ from antis above, MOCKED by modern natural ‘mores’ from AAMS & MAPS below.

A vast and fast growing natural happy-band – naturally, organically UNBANNED. 



Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Time honoured natural skoolyard-type cheeky candid chats, pro-active AAMS to receptive MAPS.

Now all grim Anglo-fascist fake tagged and blocked, “SERIOUS NON-RECENT THOUGHT/TALK CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY”.

Natural, cheeky skoolyard-type candid chats naturally leading to where all natural MAPS & AAMS naturally belong. Together in the same seXy skoolyard, HOTline, HOT bed, or on H-TOC?

Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Natural AAMS don’t do unnatural ‘law’. 
Paraphrase two SeXy ’70s UK natural HOT Lolis naturally asking natural Bold MAP, “Why does natural Dutch Law allow natural C.P. – but not unnatural Britain?”

Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Methinks natural Top MAP Tom unnaturally misread the script.
>Two SeXy ’70s UK HOT Lolis naturally asking natural Bold MAP<

Fast forward 4-decades, UK natural Lolis & Laddies with phone-porn in-their pockets now MOCK unnatural UK so called ‘Law’ with natural self-made C.P. Much like WAY back SeXy ’70s natural Dutch Law with natural C.P.

And, 21st Century natural self-made C.P. phone-porn-in-their pockets, naturally GROWING WorldWide beyond all control of unnatural so called ‘Law’.


Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Spain is less free now too. They raised AOC from 13 to 16, Drinking from 16 to 18, and now the stupid leader wants to ban prostitution. not sure your views on that…


Politicians, as usual, just earn points on what is easily sold among the ignoramuses – populism, patriotism, “defense” of morality.


No the law just does a load of man made B.S.


On boychat there is currently a mention of this interview with the primadonna James Cantor:


Were you avare of this interview, Tom?


These parts are the most noteworthy according to BC:

12:20 We only hear about the bad BL’s, and we hear about them over and over again. It’s slanted.

15:30 “Things are being run, out of peoples’ feelings of disgust.”

20:00 Now he’s trotting out his left-handed, lower-IQ, etc, material.
This (sad sigh) is the boring, repetitive Cantor we hate, and can’t relate to.

Jeremy seems to be sold on Cantor’s SOMEFING IN THE BRAIN notions, which I utterly reject. Would like to do an interview with Cantor which we look at the opposite POV, focusing on WILL, and a preponderance of negative influences over positive influences.

It’s not SOMEFING IN THE BRAIN, dude. It’s YOU. YOU made the decision to set up the alone-time with the boy, YOU made the decision not to stop.

I don’t like Cantor promoting the idea of BL identity which operates to help people ABJURE AGENCY.

Anytime people start talking about “The Devil made me do it, the stars made me do it, a teaspoon of misconnected white goop in my head made me do it . . . .”

That’s when I know the IMMORAL SHIT is about to start happening.

39:00 Dr. Cantor talks about how he categorizes by the stories that come up over and over again. That’s something I would have pushed for MORE on. What, then, are the master-narratives by which you sort people, Dr. Cantor?

43:00 can’t create pedophiles, can’t therapy them OUT of pedophila, sez Cantor.


Think of it as part of a larger, shall we say, cosmic process. There are premises and conclusions and discoveries that must be made before other can be even hoped to be understood. Much like with science- you can’t have quantum physics unless you first unlock general relativity, and you don’t get that without Newtonian mechanics first. You don’t get chemistry without alchemy. You don’t get astronomy without passing first through astrology. You don’t have algebra and calculus without arithmetic. Can’t make cars without having first invented wagons. I’ll stop droning.

In answer to the questions you asked me below, I say that the most important thing to understand is that, like any orientation- it’s not a fucking choice. That it might be fluid over time due to so many things outside our control (as all sexuality is)- people like what they like. They are born that way. No amount of therapy, no amount of help, no amount of nurture, or conditioning, will ever change it. Once we can get that through people’s heads, then we can start dealing with a bunch of other questions and ideas that naturally follow- same as with the LGBT+ movement.

Another thing that was important that was discussed- is the sensationalism of it all. That we see the news, the news doesn’t report things objectively, and people hear either the worst cases or spun cases, over and over. Which makes people react all the more irrationally. Cantor talks about how we need to change that. That absolutely is a step in the right direction. People’s manufactured and conditioned disgust needs to be overcome.

The left handed thing shouldn’t be surprising. Left-handedness/ambidexterity, is higher among all non-hetero, non-cis populations. Among gays, lesbians, bis, aces, etc. Cantor doesn’t talk about that, lest he re-attach his own gay community to pedophilia, which he doesn’t want to do. But, it’s not unique to MAPs. Btw, Cantor says that he knows is a brain thing because of the handedness- the thing he doesn’t say, that he absolutely knows- is that he knows it’s an orientation/brain/womb thing- because we know all of that about gay people. He frames it as “something went wrong” (and has to say that, and I don’t know if he actually believes that- otherwise, his own homosexuality would in fact be invalidated, so I think he’s walking a fine line there)- but the truth is it’s the same process that creates all non-heteronormative sexualities. Furthermore, the elevated rate of non-right-handedness in accepted queer identidies, is the same as it is for pedophiles. Handedness and sexual orientation – Wikipedia It’s going to be hard for people to not make that connection at some point. Certainly conservatives will pounce on the connection once it gets through their thick skulls.

The lower IQ is a red herring. He’s dealing with incarcerated/convicted populations- which he even admits may be dragging his IQ stats down. Having dealt with convicted sex offenders- pedophiles and not- while there are some who are rather normal people- the majority really are not that bright. I would chalk this up to the smart/normal ones not getting caught as much. Which makes sense. The smart/normal ones that get caught are usually from high-demand conservative religions, or they are active members of the community/high profile individuals in their local communities- they’re also the more sensational stories- the priest, the scout leader, the teacher, the politician, the business owner, the doctor, the youth counselor, etc. But that’s just my anecdotal experience. Something he doesn’t talk about, but will eventually enter the conversation- Autism and ADHD (and neurodivergence in general) and pedophilia/sex-offenders. Because there is a connection there as well. Because there is also a connection there to non-heteronormative identities as well. autism, sex offenders – Search (bing.com), autism, lgbtqia – Search (bing.com)

Cantor also talks about an incredibly important distinction between situational offenders (basically the straights using children as a substitute- which, by the way, is most of the low-IQ offenders. The proper pedophiles tend to be the smarter ones, imo), and pedophiles proper. Most people conflate sex-offender with pedophile. The majority of sex offenders against children, as he points out- are not pedophiles, they are situational offenders. That is an important piece of information people need to come to grips with- it’s part of the manufactured sensationalism of it all. Most of your actual violent/abusive (as opposed to statutory rape/abuse) is done by situational offenders. Pedophiles tend to be in trouble because the law, not because they were physically abusive, mean, or forceful in any way. Important information. People conflate the two, to our collective detriment. As long as they’re thinking: Pedophile=Child rapist (forceful, non-statutory rape) they’re going to come to the wrong conclusions. Generally speaking, the coercive, forceful offenders are the situational ones.

Clarifying our way out of all that garbage necessarily precedes any discussion of consent, benign/beneficial qualities of pedophilia, etc.



I may get around to a guest blog at some point. I have lots of things to say, but no credentials or formal research to say a lot of it. And I have almost no self-starter gumption. And I have my day to day life to tend to which takes a lot of energy out of me. I’m a wilting flower- I need lots of down time before I feel ready to do something.

The cosmic process of change is slow, from our perspective, however, I think that with regards to youth-attraction, and child sexuality- things will also move rapidly. I think it will probably be something of a generational showdown- reminiscent of the 60s and 70s.

The thing that a lot of MAPs/YAPs have not yet figured out (though certainly you remember when it was more like this) that their cause is and must be intersectional. It’s not a standalone issue. It doesn’t have it’s own silo. It is related to a host of other issues.

It has intersections with feminism and patriarchy- where does the unhealthy dynamic and trope of the aggressive/predatory male come from? Not feminism- but patriarchy. Feminism is a reaction and deconstruction of it. But it sometimes gets poisoned by religious, conservative forces. Hence it is a matter of discarding centuries of superstition and morality built on the inherent shamefulness of sex, and the “innocence” of children (ala garden of eden) and the “sinfulness” of adults (having exited the garden of innocence) who are touched by sex.

Add on top of that, in our desire and efforts to “protect children” we have built up an isolated environment- it is pervy to touch or look at kids. Which is sad because humans need touch and physical affection to be happy and healthy. Men, including fathers, are isolated- again, because of a dynamic born of patriarchy and reacted to by feminism. Because of heteronormativity it is gay for men and boys to be affectionate and touchy feely- another isolating factor. It causes men to become aggressive, needy, and violent- shooting up malls and schools and becoming incels that the liberated woman avoids like the plague. Which sends them down an alt right pipeline than wants to return men to domination so that the frustrated can “get what they want”- but who wants to be a predator? No one. So you have gun issues intersecting as well as fascist politics and the failures of liberalism.

And so now we have children and teenagers who are ever increasingly suicidal and lonely because no one can touch them. Even touch between children is pathological because “they shouldn’t be about that”- it’s second hand abuse that one of the kids must have been abused by an adult or other child. An infinite regression of perceived abuse. And society flounders endlessly to try to stem the tide of all these ills, to no avail, because, at the end of the day, the root of our problem is our fear of sex, child sexuality, and the pedophile- which is the animating fear behind anti-LGBT sentiment, and always has been. Not just because they share a common origin, movement wise, but because they share a common source of repression.

But we also run against the exploitation factor of capitalism- which is glorified prostitution, and therefore, child pornography enters the mix- we haven’t yet figured out that any exploitation is wrong, be it of a child or adult. We want to protect children from exploitation, but also deprive them of learning to navigate our twisted world. And yet they too are at the mercy of it, because, well, nothing is sacred to capitalists. Children are marketed to and exploited all the time. It begs questions of taking photos in public. Of models. Of child actors. Of the profession of acting. MeToo intersects even if people don’t realize it. Power dynamics and differentials. They fear the grooming pedophile, while failing to see that they have already groomed their children- do what your coach says. Ask your parents. Listen to your teacher. Respect cops.

I could go on endlessly with more and more. There is literally no facet of society that the issue of pedophilia does not touch- even if people don’t see it. Except maybe climate change, lol.

Last edited 11 months ago by Perplexed

I think my reply was marked as spam.

I don’t think it will take too much longer. Especially because, from what I can see, the fascists will continue to roll back LGBT wins. Until the queer movement awakens from its conservative placating stupor, and realizes that their future rises and falls with MAPs. And until they realize that, they’ll continue to have all their progress rolled back.

And even if that’s not the case, I think the internet necessitates a fast-track in the process. It will be a matter of years and decades, not centuries. I anticipate that it will be a mainstream topic come the end of the 2030s, if it hasn’t already entered more mainstream conversation by 2030.


The “cosmic” process of change is way too slow for my taste, I must say: it wasn’t so slow in the case of gay acceptance, and has been lightning quick on trans rights. But MAPs keep missing the party.

The analogy with the development of the sciences perfectly fits the description of these processes. Probably the society goes through the adoption of its taboos consistently, reducing unreasonable phobia and hysteria with each step.

I believe long social processes have gained the necessary critical mass for gay acceptance to accelerate and eventually normalize. This in turn accelerated the acceptance of trans people. In the end, the Last taboo will remain (Minor Attraction), the stability of which will become more and more eroded.


Another reason for the Athenian rejection of paederasty in Plato’s time was hostility to the rival city Sparta; paederasty was considered as Spartan love.


I suppose that helped it some. Never thought of that. But, my guess, is that the Greek world in general- as it transitioned from the Archaic, through the Classical, to the Hellenic eras- were, in part, juxtaposing themselves with their main rival: the Persians (who many Greek writers in the classical and hellenic eras say were the originators of pederasty, and the ones who introduced it to Greece). Inflating differences between you and your enemy- kind of like McCarthyite hearings, or how American got MORE religious in the wake of the Soviet Union.


I suppose I see it as a dialectical process, to borrow from Marx and Hegel. The contradictions of society eventually exhausting their ability to maintain the status quo. It’s not even a question of rationality or irrationality. I think that rationality is only part of the picture, not the whole picture. And as Machiavelli and Alinsky talk about- the right things are often done for the wrong reasons, and the wrong things done for the “right” reasons. Rarely are the right things done for the right reasons. It’s an evolutionary progression- not progress in that there is some ideal state that will come of it- but in that things don’t happen in a vacuum. They come out of whatever preceded it, and out of our adaption to previous, current, and ever changing conditions.

I only say what I see playing itself out. And also what a particular road entails, what a particular destination would entail.

Slavery, for example, while destroyed under the cloak of righteousness, was really destroyed by changing societal conditions, of which people’s sensibilities was only a part. It just wasn’t a feasible part of the incoming order, and its fate was, given what happened, inevitable. The South in the US lost the Civil War because of slavery, the very ideology and economics that were driving the south- states rights and preserving slavery- undermined their ability to maintain it in the face of a nationalizing, industrializing, employment-modeled North. The moral aspect arises from within us, and mythology part arises from our sacralization of our past and present, and our attempts to justify what we are collectively did, do, and would like to do. Our collective conscience and spirituality arising from our individual ones en masse.

The institution of pederasty in archaic Greece was a sacralization for something that no doubt came from somewhere. Much like in the Middle East, homosexual and (for lack of a better term) pederastic activity (despite the teachings of Islam) arises from the cultural imperative to preserve the virginity of their girls and women until marriage- and thus is tolerated as a lesser of two evils, even though nominally their religion, their professed morality, condemns both, strongly. The sacralization and cultural imperatives go hand in hand. In the Middle East’s case- the sacralization of virginity and marriage and marital fidelity.

In medieval, Catholic Europe, their solution was prostitution and brothels for regular people, who could and were expected to marry. Christian teachings and Christian moralitity dictates that that is sinful as well. But, as a leftover from the Roman Empire and the Roman Paterfamilias, it was more important to uphold the pristine nature of the family and maternal figures (hence the very Roman-driven madonna-whore complex), sacralized by the Virgin Mary (what a strange concept- a virginal mother), and the promotion of the idea that sex is for procreation only….but giving men the outlet of brothels and taking out the lowly passions on a whore, or in the case of nobility, a mistress, instead of sullying their wives with sinful sex. And, in the case of the clergy- buggering men and boys, and having mistresses and whores, since contact with women was all but forbidden. Sure, it’s all sinful, and all infidelity- but patriarchy, which is older than Christianity and Islam- carries the day, in the context of their respective Abrahamic faiths. A weird synthesis. But all as solutions to perceived problems. Which create their own problems, which society then reacts to.

I would say that part of what gives the LGBT+ movement wind is that, subconsciously, given the current environment born of the last few centuries, is that keeping children from sex is the cultural imperative, and thus, despite their shared history and people’s moral anxieties about homosexuality (and it’s connections to pedophilia), society hopes that by bringing the gays and lesbians into the conservative fold- giving them the right to marry, giving “consenting adults” the same privileges as straights- they give queer people the ability to acceptably indulge their sexuality- at some point. So we can now say “you have no excuse to be sexually active as a child or teen”- now the gays can wait until their adults too. None of this is rational (the dynamics of the Middle East today and that of Medeival Europe weren’t rational- the maddona/whore complex isn’t rational). Greek Pederasty wasn’t rational. They all have “reasons”, but they’re not rational.

So, I don’t necessarily look for a triumph of reason, so much as I see our irrationalities collapsing in on themselves. Something has to give. No doubt it will give to some other irrationality arising from our solutions to our problems.

There isn’t a set morality written in the stars for all time, but rather a never ending evolutionary process, not course correction, not “nature is self-correcting”- there’s no destination. But it is always adapting. We’re always in the pursuit of solutions to problems. Which always beget their own problems, which people will seek solutions for. It all builds on itself over time. But, I also think, given humans meta-cognitive abilities, there is a sort of semblance of what we call progress that is undeniably at work (even if only from our perspective). It’s not wholly untrue or without evidence. A cosmic process, in a word.

My point being is that our solutions to our problems, I think, are not working. This world isn’t working for people. Not anymore. I do think there are unique things at play. I think all times are unique and similar in their own ways. I do think humanity is at another one of their crossroads (no, not the first, not the last, but they’re not frequent on the grand scale). And I think a large part of that is our fear of pedophilia and our fears about child sexuality. It is something we have to face, at this juncture. It is its season, its time. Just as slavery was in the 19th century. Just as women’s rights were in the 20th century. I do think it is part of the present zeitgeist.


Last taboo? i guess ur right… i spoke to someone who had sex with horses on twitter.. yup. she said finding teens attractive was wrong !


The left handed thing shouldn’t be surprising.

In my opinion, if there is any relation between left-handedness and non-hetero orientation, it is extremely small. I am right-handed, I know three left-handers and they’re all heterosexuals. “The fraternal birth order” has a more prominent influence, instead of handedness IMHO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation

My guess regarding handedness is that it develops in the womb along with orientation between 12 and 20 weeks of gestation. But unfortunately I don’t know any studies that could confirm this.


Anglo Fascist totalitarian fake media ‘groomed’ half-brain antis like Cantor can never see the full facts In plain-sight.

1) Time honoured, all-age mutual attraction by the all-age sexually aMused, can never be stopped by inhuman Anglo-fascist so called ‘Sex Laws’.

2) Decades ongoing Anglo-Victorian NSPCC-type so called ‘Child Protection’ is a tax-dodge child-protection racket scam. A fake-virtue waving ‘New Patriotism’ for greed, jobs, ratings, profit, BIG Compo, power & control over the kept dumb shallow ignorant masses. The last refuge of SPIVS and COWARDS – like Cantor!

3) Modern Anglo-Fascist so called ‘Child Protection’ is the World’s worst, perversely posing as ‘Best’. A DISGRACE to true ‘Child protection’ they have TOTALLY FAILED to protect children where long proven 90% most at-risk from non-sex serous abuses with millions of non-sex serious child abuse victims. About whom the Anglo-Fascist fake child protection-racket, including Cantor, don’t give a damn!

4) And, post-Reformation for 4-centuries ongoing on five continents totalitarian Anglo Facists have created and exploited useful fake demons/scapegoats for their kept dumb shallow ignaorant masses to persecute and slaughter. From Catholics, to Irish, to Africans, to Asians, to Native Americans, to Germans, to Russians, to Muslims, to Chinese, to Gays, to Pedos!

Quote, post-911 True American Natives slaughtered from mega-millons in the 1700s down to 90K by 1900, “We’ve been fighting Anglo UK/US white-terrorists for 4-centuries. They break treaty after treaty after treaty, their word is GARBAGE!”

Counter those few HOT points Cantor if you can – C**T!


It’s a pity they don’t dare to invite you, it certainly wouldn’t be boring.

Ed Chambers

Pistols at dawn.

Ed Chambers

Reminds me of Ian McShane in the latest dumb fest John Wick movie. He was having difficulty speaking his teeth were so big.


I watched the interview. It may be boring, but the conversation needs to be less sensational anyway. It’s a good interview, but the performative hemming and hawing and “omg, I need a minute” is nauseating. Like seriously, every time we even talk about the subject of sex, sex crimes, pedophilia, etc. we have to throw a caveat before every little thing we say, and certify our dramatic, performative, virtue signaling credentials. Make sure that we show how “uncomfortable” we are, and do our best to placate, and soothe the discomfort of others. The song and dance is a colossal waste of time and energy, and holds us back from having honest discussions.

To quote a dramatized Thaddeus Stevens (in the movie “Lincoln”): “Shit on the people and what they want and what they’re ready for.”

Ed Chambers

If I didn’t know better I’d say he was ill.


Loli MAP Francois Lemonnier F.B.
(Sister Emmanuelle, Confessions of a Religious Woman, Flammarion editions)

“How and on what occasion did I start masturbating, I don’t remember.” I thought it was wrong since I did it secretly and willingly at school where I felt safer. But the mistress noticed and warned my mother. One day, my cheeks were on fire, I was shaking in class and suddenly I saw her staring at me intensely through the window door. She then explained to me that it was nasty for a little girl and I shouldn’t start again. But it had become a habit and I wasn’t very accustomed to obey. When the assault of desire attacked me, only some foreign presence had the power to stop me, otherwise I would confess powerless to the greed of pleasure.”

Reply Tina Willis: Early 20th Century honest reality of natural early sexual pleasure privately practised. Reality since BLOCKED by backward Anglo-Victorian totalitarian tabloid hypocrisy. Perversely with daily sex-filled ‘Family’ media of near-nude adults role-models & sex-objects also naturally aMusing underage kids. Now forcing so called ‘adults’ to face early 21st Century reality of natural kids sexually aMused and PUBLICLY practising! Check, UK top-sales SeX-Filled ‘FAMILY’ tabloid The SUN, Chief London Reporter Tom Wells: “Kids Aged 6 are Teacher Sex Abusers! Among a sharp rise in similar shocking cases, a six year old girl stood in front of a male teacher, lifted her skirt and boldly massaged herself through her underwear.” Plus, early guilt-free ‘sexting’ and self-made C.P. – totally out of neo-Victorian control-freaks’ control. 


Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Recalls SeXy ’70s Bold MAP watching TV with a HOT Loli’s Mom. When thru the wall ‘came’ a rapid knocking from HOT Loli, 10, bouncing her headboard hard while wanking in bed, which Bold Map then pulled clear. And naeve Mom asked “What WAS she up to?” Later nightdress HOT Loli languished on Bold Maps’ HOT lap with her bare foot twitching his BIG Lump as she boldly passed him a ‘My Little Pony’ HOT note, “I wish my foot was my fanny!”


Thanks Tom. Has there yet been a kidseX craZed Anglo-fascist case against a pro-active self-wanking AAM/HOT Loli? Include MILLIONS of pro-active underage AAM fans self-wanking, chasing, grabbing, groping, grooming, laying adult HOT Stars/MAPS?

Recalls another pro-active AAM HOT Loli, 13, on a 1990s FreeFone HOTline for Femmes 18+ seeking MEN…

[MOD: Remainder CENSORED.]

Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest that young kids are sexting of their own volition. People will blame easy access to porn, but they delude themselves.

The idea that children (even small children) are sexual beings is a vile lie. An abusive lie, if you ask me. I masturbated to orgasm all my life. Even as a toddler and preschool/kindergartner. Probably since infancy. I reiterate- we know since the rise of ultrasounds and related prenatal technology that babies masturbate- to orgasm- in the womb. I got aroused a lot as a small child. I didn’t know the words at the time, only the sensation. I had a budding bondage/sadistic streak- in the sexual sense of the term, as a child. I even have some memories of being aroused by/at things in media (written, live-action, and animated)- none of which was pornographic- all from family-friendly media. All pre-pubertal.

Anyone I even hint any of this to, or reveal any small part of this to, immediately asks me if I was sexually abused as a child. I was not. I have scoured my memory, my relations (a very uncomfortable examination I might add), acquaintances, even people who I only had ancillary interaction with as a child. I was never molested as a child, full stop. I lived in a highly religious, conservative home, church, community, culture, and society. I was raised watching Looney Tunes and Disney. I knew nothing formally about sex, and was taught nothing formally about sex. I only knew the osmosisly learned ideas of “naughty” and “bad”. I didn’t even know anything about the word “gay” until I was 10, and even then, I was only given the foggiest of ideas of what it even meant. I didn’t know people masturbated to fantasies (something I never did- and no, this does not contradict anything I’ve mentioned earlier) until I was 16.

So anyone saying that educating kids is somehow poisoning their minds- is either a liar or has a shit memory. Kids have that animating force within them all on their own. I daresay, I do not believe anyone who says they never masturbated before puberty (except, perhaps, girls and women who don’t have external equipment that gets stimulated by the most benign things on a dime) and never had “sexy/naughty thoughts” before adolescence.

Until we can acknowledge that children are sexual, and that puberty isn’t this magical beginning we all pretend that it is- we’re going to keep banging our heads against a wall, with no end in sight. Grooming them for actual abuse- for actual exploitation, as opposed to our puritanical handwringing over nudity, exploration, natural development, and orgasms.

Last edited 11 months ago by Perplexed

I didn’t see it until after. I can roll with the alternative fake address.


Quote, consenting zebra humping happy pups, “MACS, all ages, all species – Mutually Attracted Creatures.”

Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

Short-on-logic? Labour’s ex-LOLI who got Page 3-type porn BANNED!

“When you think about it, we have newsagents in every small shopping area throughout the country. This is where we all go to buy our papers and children go to buy their comics and sweets. Almost every one of them has a top shelf full of porn. This reflects the massive quantity of pornography which is distributed and sold in Britain and the fact that it is considered mainstream and acceptable. In the United States of America, the figures have been added up. Their pornography industry is larger than the film and record industries combined. I am sure that it is equally large in Britain.”



Ah yes isnt equality great when mens mags have disapeared off the shelves while womans mags are everywhere with topless males… Oh yeah and topless is extremely soft porn. yet noone cares about the hardcore stuff!

Ed Chambers

Thank you for your efforts Tom. I browsed through this and can’t help but be reminded that the underlying reasons for providing therapy for MAPs are likely to be to indoctrinate them into thinking in ways that are socially acceptable. Namely to hate themselves for their attractions and to avoid letting them manifest in any positive sense. I’m always incredibly weary of these surveys, as I believe they aim to tweak current perspectives in said therapy so Pyschologists find it more easy to dial into the mindset of MAPs to control and manipulate them more easily.


Well, it’s because, despite their best and most well intentioned efforts, they’re still engaging with a caricature of their intended subject, rather than the actual person, as a person, which would cause them to empathize too much with their subject in a way that would be too socially transgressive and ostracizing. The questions and framing alone demonstrate as much. It’s like they’re trying to get a feel for an alien species.

Last edited 11 months ago by Perplexed

It will take a lot of patience. It’s a long marathon to the liberation and there are examples of good aspirations for understanding MAPs


The more information people accumulate about MAPs, the more they doubt the veracity of the established status quo. The ocean inevitably grinds the rocks.


Like earlier ‘useful sexual scapegoats’, mutually attracted AAMS & MAPS need no ‘therapy’.

Unlike some so called ‘therapists’ knowing only what they’re brainwashed to believe by a long outdated Anglo Victorian fascist narrative, so called ‘Child Protection’.

In fact a fake virtue-waving ‘new patriotism’ Child Protection Racket, last refuge of SPIVS. For corrupt careers, tax-dodge charities, ratings, profit Power & Control over their kept dumb, shallow ignorant masses, aka $heeple, quote, “Baaaaaaaaaaaa.”.

For decades ongoing failing to protect children where long proven 90% most at-risk from non-sex serious abuses with millions of non-sex serious child abuse victims about whom the kidsex-craZed Anglo Victorian fascist ‘Child Protection’ racket mafia don’t give a damn!

Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup

My comment, mean’t to be sarcastic on anti-MAP Starmer. His only kid-positive I recall, his 1990s successful pro-bono defence of the McLibel Two which reformed Ronnie MacDonald’s kid-unhealthy junk food, into ‘healthy options’. Resolved in 1997 after 10 yrs the longest running case in UK legal history. Starmer’s impossible next case to reform the unelected UK junk MacMedia ruling and polluting minds, including duly elected politicians? 

As for Deutsch, or any, research into the long-running unresolved fake anguish Anglo kidsex panic psycho-scam. A junk media made mass deception, ‘Child Protection Racket’ fake virtue-waving, ‘new patriotism’ last refuge of COWARDS. Not least the Victorian NSPCC tax-dodge charity. Deviously masked by media mass deception while failing to protect children where long proven 90% most at-risk from non-sex serious abuses with millions of non-sex serious child abuse victims about whom the Anglo fascist ‘Child Protection’ racket mafia don’t give a damn.

[MOD: tldr: over 1k words deleted.]


Wait- to fill that you have to have under gone therapy? I havent, but when ive seen psychiatric people for other reasons i have had interesting reactions ranging from this is inappropriate to i will break your legs if...


It was in the Uk…. he basically said if you touch my kid ill break your legs
Yeah i was supposed to be having mental health therapy.. Funnily enough he didnt really help. Didnt even shake my hand so i knew he didnt like me immediately.. Yeah he should try dealing with autism thats what i now know i have) . horrible man


Thanks. They arent professional. Not just because of the violence. Noone has given me any help. I get more out of visiting places like this. I did throw something back at one person who was saying underage is abusive. Yes kate winslet would disagree i said


I suppose maybe there’s a “claw” effect that could be taking place, a three pronged claw. The first claw being the pursuit of abuse prevention (which will push society and scientists/therapists ever deeper down the rabbit hole). The second claw being MAPs/YAPs (which are decent enough umbrella terms) trying to press the case for their rights/destigmatization. The third claw, though, is youth liberation and youth empowerment. And while I strongly support the first claw, and sympathize with the second claw, I believe that it is the third claw which is the most important, and which is the radical of the whole problem in the first place. And the only avenue which will be able to carry the day the most. But it will require kids themselves to advocate and push their own platform. Which is incredibly difficult. Especially since it’s such a small window in individuals lives.


But it will require kids themselves to advocate and push their own platform. Which is incredibly difficult. Especially since it’s such a small window in individuals lives.

A Juvenilists movement is needed. The movement that advocates the youth rights and promotes youth autonomy.

This could be the start

In November 2000, an internet poll of 42,000 girls aged 12 to 16 was conducted. “Nine out of 10 respondents did not believe in waiting until marriage to have sex, while 87 per cent said the age of consent should be lowered from 16. Sex education was criticised as out-dated, uninformative and taught too late, with little structured literature about sexually transmitted diseases, same-sex relationships and how to deal with pregnancy”. Those surveyed also said that free condoms should be provided in girls toilets and that the £60 million drive by the government to halve teenage conceptions would have been better spent on clinics for young people wanting confidential advice


But is it possible now?
Modern girls grew up notorious and consider the manifestation of sexuality something offensive, and any attention is harassment. Even if now someone ask their opinion now, young girls have been brainwashed with feminist sex-negative attitudes of MeToo.


The excesses of MeToo (which was a necessary step in the right direction, but not without its excesses and contradictions) will burn themselves out, as it cannibalizes even more people. When someone like Lizzo starts getting accused of (with grown ass adults fully capable of making their own god damn decisions) complain about being at a party where they saw someone eat a banana out of a vagina, or were “pressured to”, in the Amsterdam fucking Red Light district, echoing conservative, puritanical ideas of “propriety”- you know that it’s eventually going to lose steam. Like you didn’t know the fuck where you were or what kind of party you were being invited to. “I’m a victim”. No you’re not. Nobody raped you, and nobody threatened you. Nobody “manipulated you”. You’re either a coward, greedy, or too stupid and have to remember to breathe lest you suffocate.

People don’t want to analyize everything to hell and back. Eventually people are going to revert back to saying “OMG, chill out for five minutes! Relax and let people enjoy things. Not everything has to be a running commentary and run through academic rigor every moment of every god damn day.”

Just as conservative handwringing always does (which is more an ethos and impulse than an actual ideology – it sees no right or left- hence why progressives and marxists are often incredibly conservative, especially socially). It exhausts itself after crying wolf too many times. It will do the same with its pedophilia and groomer panic. It did with homosexuality, divorce, and fornication. It will also do the same with polyamory.

Last edited 11 months ago by Perplexed

2000… better days.. i remember going out and 15-16-17 year olds were out everywhere.. and 99% of them are quite fine now. the government really went cuckoo with the laws.. and yes of course they were having sex.. what happened/ now people want the age risen to 25!!


Thats when ive mentioned my thoughts and views… which i do find awkward mentioning but it does come out.. none have been very supportive surprisingly. in fact i think thats a reason why they keep getting rid of me..


Almost 25% into Century 21.

And yet modern, many atheist…

[MOD: Remainder deleted as incoherent. Sorry, HHP, but much of your writing gives me a headache. I’d rather not inflict it on other readers unless you are clearly, repeat CLEARLY, saying something interesting.]


Hopefully clarified in a few lines more from a devout atheist?

The decades ongoing Anglo ‘Christian’ Victorian hateful ‘Dominant Narrative’ a perverse insult to kind loving Christ. Is smote asunder by their own millenia ongoing benign deities. 

Intergen mutually attracted AAM Mary 12 and middle-age MAP Joe, produced benign Sweet Jesus loving kind role-models for all humanity. 

So, intergen mutually attracted AAM-MAP Mary & Joseph are millenia ongoing alltime benign role-models. For all AAMS, MAPS and hopeful, loving kind humanity following their kind loving son. Role-model, living on in Hearts & Minds though physically crucified by an earlier hateful ‘Dominant Narrative’.

Last edited 11 months ago by HappyHumpingPup
Ed Chambers

So, all het MAPs should and would the Maryesque?


MAPS ‘hammered’ in todays failed state Ecuador. Military Lesbians brutalised for centuries in Anglo fascist UK – until Blair’s Law Y2K.

(Awaiting kid-starver Starmer’s Law Y2K+24, MAPS-AAMS AOK?)

From 30m.05s:



Blair? such a great guy. forget the war, he brought in laws to punish teens for sexting.
I cant think of any decent politicians- Charles Kennedy seemed ok.Starmer? oh, yes he is evil too. Not because of anything map-related, dont know his views on that. But he has some monstrous ideas


Keir Starmer was closely involved with stirring up pedophile hysteria during his time as Director of Public Prosecutions, introducing new regulations leading to an upsurge in child abuse accusations. Many of these claims went on to be discredited as fantastical and malicious, albeit at great expense.



I’m sure if someone were willing to probe into his long preceding legal career, they would also find further baggage.


Found it interesting that during the recent Huw Edwards thing no mention of Peadophile or Child Porn Which might be positive, Those terms would be incorrect. One day people will realise with all these well known people coming out the closet so to speak that they will realise finding teens attractive is normal. (no disrespect to anyone here who likes younger)


Paraphrase undamaged Gay Guru Pete, “It’s a Crime Against Humanity to criminalise or stigmatise ANY AGE consenting sex.”

[MOD: Exact quotes, please, with reference, for this sort of claim. Paraphrase isn’t good enough. Also, it’s not so much paraphrasing as merely parroting again what has been recently said.]



If back-slider Tatchell ATTACKED the backward Victorian AOC, like he NAILS backward Victorian-colonial Gay wrongs. Righteous MAPS & AAMS would be FREE!!

From 2h:21m:00s https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001p1kp


Indeed Tom.

Victim Pete’s brain now mass mind-raped by the same 24/7 full frontal loboto-Media that trashed former pro-Pie now P.C./Pure Coward victim Harperson.

On-record, recall undamaged compos mentis Pete, 2009, “Providing it is safe and with consent, sex is good. It is not dirty, shameful or damaging. It is an immensely pleasurable and profound human bond, which involves intense shared fulfilment and happiness. Consensual sex should not be stigmatised or criminalised, not for young people, not for adults, not for anyone.”



Another attempt to drum up outrage around MAP allyship fails – this time with the added indignity that a minor’s ability to consent was thrown into the bargain. This should be low-hanging fruit for the outrage-mongers, but the hypothesis of normalization seems to be fulfilling its own prophecy.

Add this to Noah Berlatsky (again).





Victim as a relative status(2023)

This article advances a theory of the ‘relative’ nature of victim status, demonstrating that whether an individual is identified as a victim is, in part, conditional on their relationships with others. Using the example of victim identification in cases of child criminal exploitation, this article demonstrates that youth justice practitioners’ perceptions of young people’s peer relationships and their relationships with their families had a significant impact on whether young people were identified as victims of child criminal exploitation. To explain this dynamic, this article then further explores the conceptual nature of victim status, focusing on its transient and finite qualities. In doing so, this article begins to address the relational gap in the study of processes of victim identification.



Purity or perversion? from taboo to fact: kindergarten teachers’ reflections on age-normal sexuality (2023)


May be of interest to readers…


I keep wondering what the best way to form local activist groups may be. The risk of encryption seems to me that many potential activists simply won’t have the motivation to learn how to use it and/or avoid it due to the fear of its association with criminal activity. If we can assume that all or most current local political groups of MAPs have formed via simple online communication, then distributing flyers etc. in your region seems to be an unnecessary (& possibly dangerous) effort. Especially considering that those interested in activism are quite likely to visit MAP websites such as this one at least occasionally. I’d never discourage anyone from trying out new approaches to activism, but I believe it is worth to also look how we can improve the stuff that has already been tried with some success.

There used to be a website (I believe by a researcher, maybe David Riegel) that connected BLs living in the same region. You told the website your email and rough location (you could more or less choose how specific you wanted to be), and automatically everyone else who had registered and lived in the same region was notified with a message like “[email address] from [country/state/etc.] has registered”. After two years or so, I did indeed meet with a BL via this website. Given how decentralized online MAP communities are, if the website had been advertised more effectively, I think the waiting time could’ve been much shorter.

Maybe I’m out of the loop and a similar website like this exists again somewhere, but if not, such a mechanism perhaps could simply be part of a website that already exists. For example, I wonder if it might be possible for Heretic TOC to have a section like “Emails & Locations” at the top where people interested in doing local activism can type in their email and a more or less specific location. Obviously, there’re problems such as spam, antis, etc. and there may be websites more suitable for this.

Speeches, YT videos etc. are often supposed to have a “call for action”. So here’s mine: If flyers or encryption aren’t your thing, then don’t assume that I or someone else is going to find someone who is in a position to set up the mechanism I described above. Like, I’m hella lazy. Riegel’s website worked for me and apparently others as well, yet once it was gone this actually somewhat effective good thing vanished and even I as someone who used it with some success forgot about it until today. So I encourage readers to try yourself to find someone (or create such a website yourself if you have the energy and knowledge).


Alas, I had hoped an accusation “to conspire to corrupt public morals” would require an official organisation (such as PIE).

IIRC, apart from your own case, a previous blog post here mentioned activists in the Netherlands faced legal problems for a mere email list.

In light of such unfortunate events, encrypted communication is quite appealing indeed.


How can the US be more permissive? Ive learned over the years that the USA is one of the least map friendly countries on earth… even though they have AOC at 16 in many states the consequences can still be serious if you put a foot wrong


Even with the first amendment, i cant imagine map-related blogs lasting long. Freespeech tube was hacked. The first amendment doesnt even mean that much anymore as people spend so much of their lives on social media which is highly censored…. Is this blog safe do you reckon?


Two recent and very weird but somewhat positive cases from the US would be Amos Yee and also Heart Progress. The latter was a strange project probably created by antis pretending to be a group of MAP activists. I believe they had a forum for activists at some point where actual MAPs joined, and this didn’t seem to cause any legal problems. Amos Yee genuinely supported MAP activism, albeit often in an unhelpful/destructive way. He created several MAP online groups that seemed to have some aspirations for activism.

NAMbLA used to organize protests and I believe the Supreme Court or at least the ACLU defended its right to free speech, so if they are ever going to organize meetings again that might be something protecting them from legal trouble.

Germany might also be a somewhat good place in that regard. It’s “therapy” project Dunkelfeld has been funded by the government for over a decade. I believe there was also at least one legal case of a judge prohibiting the sale of music based on it’s lyrics encouraging people to kill pedophiles (which the judge saw hate speech against the mentally ill), and there exist a few small MAP groups (though many of them are anti-c). The AHS (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitsgemeinschaft_Humane_Sexualit%C3%A4t) has a self-help group. There’s also a pro-c MAP journalist with a website called Krumme 13. The website has a forum and I believe someone from there caused a “scandal” last year by joining a pride parade with a MAP flag. An example of an official anti-c registered association created by MAPs in Germany would be https://suh-ev.de/

At least in my humble impression, all of these organizations don’t seem to be able to really do much, though. So for effective local activism, more is unfortunately needed than just bringing a few MAPs together. For the anti-c orgs activism seems to mean getting invited to talk about themselves at an academic event once or twice a year. And the one or two pro-c groups… well, I don’t know the exact reasons why they don’t do more, but I guess it has to do with the usual problems like small numbers, bad mental health, and problems resulting from that, like difficulty to agree on a strategy. The Dunkelfeld project offers therapy in several different cities in Germany and I believe I read somewhere that even in a relatively small city they reported getting like several hundred people requesting therapy within a year. So those would all be potential activists if only they wouldn’t have so many internalized prejudices that they believe they need to go to Dunkelfeld to “control their urges” and so on.

To indulge in the utopian fantasy of being in a room with other local MAP activists for a moment, if I were asked what I feel like a good strategy would be, my answer would probably to focus on the oppression of young MAPs and (in a fashion similar to that of b4u-act) to ignore AoC laws. Simply because the topic of MAP youth seems to encapsulate the double standards of those opposed to us better than anything else, and furthermore uses their emotional weapon “think of the children” against them. “Yeah, agreed. Let’s think of the children. What would you do with children and teens who are MAPs? You said MAPs should be killed. Do you want to kill MAPs no matter how old they are, or do you want to wait until a certain age, hmm?” Obviously I’ve no experience with interviews or whatever, but that’d be my naive approach to go from the defensive to hopefully the attack. Of course, in a place like the US a common response might simply be that young MAPs don’t really exist but instead are “recruted” and can be “cured” from their “confusion”, but e.g. in Germany the Dunkelfeld project funded by the government also includes “therapy” (well, let’s hope it at least increases the well-being of some of its clients) for 12-17 year-old whose parents or they themselves think of themselves as (possibly) MAPs, hence denying their existence likely wouldn’t work as well as in a debate as it would in the US.


Amos Yee is a good speaker. His videos are getting attention. Most people perceive audiovisual content better than plain text, so these vlogs are useful for activism. Creative MAPs could use Newgon.net as an archive of information and record similar videos that could be shared via QR code stickers.

Ed Chambers

Amos Yee did speak well, but outside of the message he sent out with his media he was a massive cock. On top of that, he maintained he wasn’t sexually attracted to minors. Ironic perhaps he was later sentenced to 6 years for grooming a minor and soliciting indecent images from a minor.

Ed Chambers

^ A nice summary Sakuga, I agree. & looking forward to Tom’s next blog which may also have an appendage re his recent comms with said German org –


From my knowledge Heart Progress was a troll project aimed at winding people up and causing a stir. which it certainly did.. lol


Harlan at BoyChat recommends that Stella & Sasha (of Genspect & podcast “A Wider Lens”) interview TOC.
I heartily concur!

Marco Antonio

I challenge the idea that anonymity is the way to go. Forceful, completely-anonymous messages can be counter productive, as there is inevitably the sense that the author is a ‘coward radical’ (rather than just someone who logically fears discrimination by unconventional political ideas). Also, an anonymous message loses strength when it is responded non-anonymously by the antis. Moreover, when speaking anonymously it is easy to say things in a less empathic and less sensible way.

Sometimes a milder message with less anonymity may be more effective than an anonymous forceful message. I’m not talking about chaging one’s narrative. I’m talking about the topics we focus on, and the way we communicate. For example saying anonymously that sending pedophiles to prison is a genocide doesn’t help. Writing an authored article addressing the age of consent laws’ contradictions may be more effective.

We also have to gauge levels of anonymity, depending on each situation and our preferences. For example, we may show our face without telling our name. We may mask our face but show our silhouette. Etc. 

Liana Lial

Anonymity is not fully effective, and I will not claim it to be. But it is a useful and necessary tool in our arsenal. The point here is not to make drastic change social change anonymously. As I pointed out at the end of my work, the end-goal of anonymity should be bolstering ourselves until we can be less anonymous. You point out that we have to gauge levels of anonymity, and this is most definitely true. In my view, the reason we need to focus on anonymity now is because we have to firstly reach each other before we can create that serious social change.

If someone who is a part of an otherwise anonymous network is willing to sacrifice that anonymity, I do not necessarily think this is a bad thing, insofar as the members are in agreement (as someone sacrificing their own anonymity could adversely affect others depending.) This sort of variability in individual behavior and circumstance is something I mentioned I couldn’t account for completely (at least, not in a blog article that is attempting not to overrun its welcome.) It is up to the participants to decide how specifically they will wield anonymity.

Ed Chambers

Its back? but where it go?? why is it in sweden now? and wheres all the old stuff gone??

Ed Chambers

It was hacked, quite a bit of the content was lost. Strat would be able to tell you more. I have an idea why it’s now in Sweden, if it is, but it’s not important.


Sadly i dont have the time to read long articles anymore. But i do wonder what you think of the LGBT movement? i find it is very hateful towards MAPs and people with large age gaps that are legal even. which means it isnt as inclusive at it thinks… Im not even allowed to say these things on Twitter. even though…. its kinda true…


I don’t sympathize with LGBT people at all. Pedophiles have nothing to do with the LGBT movement. Pedophiles are not gay. They are homosexuals, yes, but not gay. I even think that pedophilia is closer to heterosexuality.

Gays have proven to be even more discriminatory than heterosexuals. They should be the first to understand the repression of pedophiles, but in reality they are the first to discriminate them. We can’t expect the P for “pedophiles” or the B for “boylovers” to ever be added to their alphabet soup. Of course, the + symbol will never include pedophiles. And that doesn’t bother me, as I prefer not to have anything to do with LGBT people.


Yup. thye wont even accept me ! As an ephebophile/hebephile.. Of course gay/homosexual (thats not the same?) people that are MAPs are ok of course… although the non-Maps are a bit puzzling

Marco Antonio

If you promote the idea that MAPs don’t sympathize with LGBT people, then LGBT people won’t sympathize with MAPs. This is a loop we have to break. The LGBT movement is much broader than you think. Let’s focus on the supporters rather than on the antis. As a gay individual, for me the + sign does include BLs because we are highly discriminated gender and sexual minorities. We are sexual and gender diversity.


In the 1990s, ILGA expelled pedophile associations from its ranks. Since then, repression against pedophiles has intensified alarmingly all over the world, but gays have never shown the slightest solidarity or understanding. I think we should not expect anything from them, because they played their role long ago. Furthermore, I don’t think that love and sexual attraction to minors has anything to do with adult gay sex or transsexuality. They are completely different worlds. I feel closer to an heterosexual than I do to a gay or a transsexual. And I certainly feel much closer to a girllover than to a gay or a transsexual. I think it is necessary a joint and closer fight between boylovers and girllovers. Both have a lot in common and their respective sexualities can be considered variants of the same sexual orientation. But I think that fight needs to take place outside of the LGBT+ movement.

Marco Antonio

Ah, the generalizations. They are very damaging – you should know that already. I am aware of ILGA’s sad story, so I also understand your deep disappointment. And I know that many gays are antis (they want to save their asses at the expenses of opressing other minorities; it’s the typical opressed/opressor mechanism).

I know I will not convince you, but in case someone reads this: You do have gay supporters. I truly believe that the gay movement needs the BL movement, as much as that the BL movement needs the gay movement.

Last edited 11 months ago by Marco Antonio

These are the right words, but the like button has some kind of bug, when you try to press like, a dislike is put. I managed to revoke my unintentional dislike, but others apparently could’t.


Tom, I would like to know what you think about the topic discussed by Marco Antonio and myself.


Arguably, the gay movement could not have won the overwhelming public acceptance it now enjoys without first distancing itself from paedophilia. How would you answer that?

This is a very deep problem. On the one hand, I want to reproach gay organizations with cowardice and indecision. Not much was required of them, just to be neutral. Damn, just be neutral. But at some point, even neutrality began to be seen as support, which especially evident in modern Wikipedia.

And on the other hand, a practice shows that it is impossible to fill a bucket with water from a fire hose. Society is very slow and reluctant to revise its dogmas. The reaction that we observed in the example of Tom and Rind is similar to the condemnation of Galileo. Ideas were expressed that are ahead of the development of society, for which it is not yet ready, but which have remained in history and are accumulating until they gain critical mass.

The three stages of the Truth

First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” – Arthur Schopenhauer


The gays were quick to disassociate and even condemn MAPS, the reasoning that the GAY community now live in comfortable surroundings that even effeminise stereotypes are a norm, which is actually the wrong stereotype to create as GAY men took a lot of time and social lobbying to remove that “queer” behaviourism.
So much so that they consider themselves as normal and now looking to embrace the acceptance of drag and so on.
Of course they would not support MAPS, because it serves them to do so. Otherwise it would just invoke the fear of the public with closed heterosexual attitudes, merged with traditionalist values to associate and condemn all gays as possible child abusers. It is totally self-orientated survival tactics.
A good example of this was the case of the Zulock couple, since then the gay community have been keeping this story much under wraps. The silence is deafening!!

I also find it hypocritical when the same community, is lauding young male children to come out of the closet and run around, running around in dresses and emasculating them as “baby queens”.
I would go as far to say that even despite the MAPS sexual orientation, they have far more in common with traditionalist gender values and more in tune with the “unbiased” welfare of children than the Gays do.

Last edited 11 months ago by PASTA

Interesting article on the sex lives of monkeys, though, when the age comparison to humans is around ten, the article becomes statist regarding MAPs as usual. Interesting article though.https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/14/most-monkeys-are-bisexual-study-finds-brace-yourself-for-the-wrongheaded-lessons-for-humans/


I consider this is true for humans as well. The only difference is that people are capable of inventing and instilling false attitudes and taboos. There are significantly more bisexuals, but many of them live as heteros under the influence of these attitudes and prejudices and do not feel deprived, because their bisexuality allows them to be content with half, especially if it is dominant.

Warbling J Turpitude

The “only” difference is nonetheless the one that has virtually created all that we know today to be our world. How, if not for a founding interdiction, do you suppose anything would have ever come to present more significance than somethng else? How, indeed, would there be significance at all? How could it even matter to anyone if you were (said to be) say, a ‘bonobo” a “bimbo” or a “bloke”? How would that even be said?

When you declare such and such to be “false”, what is it that you really suppose you mean? How on earth could you have come by such extraordinary knowledge, if human psychosexual “truth” is bonobic before it is anything else?

Last edited 1 year ago by Warbling J Turpitude

When you declare such and such to be “false”, what is it that you really suppose you mean?

All the past delusions of humanity. Ranging from religious bigotry, nationalism, racism, to ignorant puritanism, homophobia and sexophobia.

I was just expressing the possibility that there are more bisexual people than is commonly believed.

However, the author of the article takes research on the behavior of macaques and guides them through a current sex-negative agenda.

But it’s hard to see any lessons here that humans would want to apply to ourselves. What, after all, would such lessons be? That all friendships and workplace relationships should be sexualised, starting in primary school?

Yes, it is correct to say not sexualized, but sex-positive via proper sex education and communes like schools and universities.

Apparently the author of the article is so ignorant that he does not know what the boys do when they constantly live in a same-sex group of classmates

That gay men should end their aversion to women and make sure they have babies with them from time to time?

Yes, many gay men have surrogate children lol. But the author of the article for some reason thinks that gays must have straight sex for this

These don’t sound like notions that any sensible person would be on board with.

In macaque society, male relationships are, we learn, routinely sexualised, with male companions often bonding via sexual interaction. That isn’t the case in human society, where most relationships are non-sexual, by mutual agreement! Macaques, which spontaneously mount each other while hanging out, would be totally befuddled by MeToo..

The author of this article is an idiot who makes absurd conclusions, assuming that people should mount each other like macaques )

The relationships can be sex-positive, by mutual agreement, if people learned to communicate and respond correctly, and not accuse each other of harassment.

A human is sexual by nature, but puritanic people like author of the article and meToo feminists are promoting sex-negative agenda.


First, I was astonished to read, after an initial warning to respect “legal confines,” the author soon gives as example the “Black Bloc,” a group constituted for the purpose of breaking the law: violent confrontation with the police and destruction of “symbols of capitalism” or even of street furniture.
Next, there is strictly nothing to expect from official gay and lesbian groups; more sympathy for MAPs will be found among ordinary heterosexuals.
Finally, there is no point mimicking the early gay and lesbian movements. Apart some radicals like Harry Hay and David Thorstad, their goal was the freedom to do what they wanted between themselves, in their own niche. On the other hand, acceptance of MAPs is related to the erotic freedom of minors, so in order to free MAPs from persecution, you need first to fight for youth liberation. There is no place for identity politics in this respect.

Liana Lial

Interesting musings, but I have some thoughts. I would argue that the point of the black bloc is not explicitly or exclusively for the purpose of breaking the law. It can be used for this purpose- this I will not deny. But we can still learn lessons from it, and many cases, I would argue it protects individuals who do not break the law in protest, but may be caught up regardless. Police are liable to harm and arrest individuals in protest for mere involvement. I am somewhat stunted in what I can say on the matter of disruptive confrontation. I do not want to claim or advocate anything which would harm the blog’s status.

I would also disagree with the assertion that more sympathy will be found among ordinary heterosexuals. Anecdotally, I have suffered rejection heavily from heterosexuals and gay people. But I have garnered more support from gay people, and I might suggest that many gay youth have more experience crossing these age-boundaries than let on. (I recall once finding statistics suggesting that gay men reported more youth/adult encounters as boys than any other group, but I would have to find this again..)

And, you’re right, we shouldn’t mimic gay and lesbian groups. Thankfully, I did not say we should. But given the similarity in difficulties we have faced, it would be absurd not to draw any inspiration from the past organizing efforts. We learn from history, and for me, that includes gay history, alongside the history of anarchist organizing. We should, however, pursue an overall liberation of youth, and I would argue that any decent group representing youthlovers would also advocate for the autonomy of youth in general.


I wonder in which planet you live, where the Black Bloc “is not explicitly or exclusively for the purpose of breaking the law” and “protects individuals who do not break the law in protest.” Here in France, the Black Bloc comes uninvited in demonstrations, starts destroying street furniture, shop windows, or banks, and throws things at the police; then in response to their provocations, the police attacks the demonstration and injures peaceful demonstrators. The Black Bloc has even threatened trade union officials or representatives of political parties.
Next, show me a single prominent gay or lesbian who has any sympathy for man-girl love…

Marco Antonio

For a fair comparison we should expect 1 LGB sympathizer for every 24 straight sympathizers (assuming an optimistic 4% of LGB people). Do we even have as much as 24 prominent sympathizers, of any sexual orientation?

Still, if you are interested in having an example of a gay person publicly supporting MAPs these days, I can provide details (in private). I don’t know where the bar for ‘prominent’ falls for you, though. 🙂

Not everything is about public figures. For example, if someone conveys supportive opinions about MAPs to close relatives and friends, this already has an impact. And it’s safer than going public and instantly getting cancelled forever.

All the above does not take out the fact that the gay movement carries a historical and ethical responsibility to admit and revert the huge mistake made in the past. We can’t control what others do, though. In the meantime, we should gather efforts and welcome any supporter (and, even, anyone who at least engages in the debate in a rational way).

Might i just mention here that my Twitter account has been “permanently suspended” without one word of explanation. I broke no rule, i received zero warning about anything, but suddenly, BAM. Main social lifeline is gone. I had not made so much as a single comment, anywhere, on the day. Have not posted an actual tweet for months on end. Something has definitely gone awry at Twitter but there is, at present, nothing one can find out about it or do about it Always latent paranoia now jumps wildly about like a helpless fish in a basket. Attached is screenshot of what they sent me after “lodging appeal” and requesting an explanation. Unf**kingbelievable ..

Last edited 1 year ago by Warbling J Turpitude

More or less the same thing happened to me if it makes you feel any better. No warning. No explanation. No obvious post I made that was pushing the line. Just logged in one day and I was banned with a nebulous message about “violating twitter rules”. I filed an appeal, but never heard back.

warbling j turpitude

Not sure if you’ll see this now, but do either you, Matt or Ed have any updates on this Twitter situation at all? With your own accounts, and so on?

Every appeal i’ve made (i think about 5 so far) continues to result in automated “replies”, that go round in infuriating circles..If you respond in any way to an auto-reply (which just repeats that your account has been suspended) you get yet another auto-invitation to appeal, and so on. The resultant feeling of futility is dreadful, without a doubt. At the same time of course passive acquiescence feels even worse.

Last edited 11 months ago by warbling j turpitude

I went ahead and files a second appeal just to see if it would do anything, Still haven’t heard a damn thing about either of them.


i THINK im suspended but not permanently… Musk is a real free speech lover.. what a scumbag. My opinions are quite valid thank you !!

Ed Chambers

Perhaps it was your reference to Adolf Hitler, quoting him re ‘The State must declare the child ….’ etc. Of course he was right, but truth isn’t a big thing for Musk if it goes against the zeitgeist. Don’t let it bother you. It’s happened to most, if not all MAPs.


Neat boomer MAP history Tom. 

And, much UK networking via pre-Web toilet walls HOT drawings, stories & cryptic notes, e.g. ‘S.G. Fan’ with public payphones numbers to call at certain times. Plus, Family Nudist Clubs, Porn Shops easily spotting likely MAP browsers & buyers. 

‘Broadly attractive’ bold-MAP in his 20s thru 50s met some when fancied by Gay family men with Lolis & Laddies, and HOT Moms were naturals. 1992 even met a bold bi-boy, 8, who cheekily slapped bold-MAP’s tight-jeans bum while he was reading a local shop advert board for ‘Handyman-Gardener wanted’ another handy route and PAID too.

That lad with Loli-sis, 6, then pestered friendly bold-MAP for small-change for sweets and offered him a cookie while following him to a local park where watching cricket turned into pushing swings until the forgetful Loli asked, “What’s your name again?” Overheard by a ‘Stranger Danger’ brainwashed biddy who fast left the park to call 999 from a payphone, and a nearby Police Helicopter left a suspected break-in to hover so low over the playground that the cheeky lad looked up, shook his fist and shouted “Fuck off you noisy bastards!” (And they did, all on-cam).

Later asked to be their babysitter by their friendly Mom and ex-Army Dad who at a regular British Legion Sunday booze-up said to his mates, “He’s the only man I trust with my kids – they love him!” (And they did, little AAMs.)

Liana Lial

I thank you for your words and comments here. You bring up some awfully important information for people here to consider. In particular, the fact that we do not have a well-carved out subculture in the way that gay people have is a major barrier. I would say that this lack of subculture is a part why these more digital mean are necessary to reach other youthlovers. I admit that growing adequate numbers is a concern to me, and I cannot say I have an answer at this moment. I will continue to think on it, but I imagine a part of the answer may not come fully until I begin the steps thereto.

The commenter Phos has pointed out that non-youthlovers can be used as proxies. They point out that there are other individuals frustrated with the status quo and SORs. This idea is excellent, and as they point out, one B4U-ACT uses. I have considered similar, and I particularly would like to highlight groups like the National Association for Rational Sex Offense Laws (NARSOL) as such proxies. I would suggest that organizations such as this who are adjacent in their concerns (even more so than groups trying to “prevent CSA”) might well be important points of interests.

These are not gay bars or nightclubs. Meetings and work within the group does not focus on youthlovers. But, at the risk of sounding too speculative, I cannot imagine that a group explicitly critical of the SOR wouldn’t have a particularly high number of youthlovers involved, or at least individuals sympathetic to us. I will not claim groups such as these definitively are good potential recruitment spots, but that they are worth investigating.

TOC, thank you as always for your thoughtful words, and Phos, if you’re reading this, I’ll be sure to respond to the earlier comment of yours I mentioned soon enough.


SeXy ’70s UK monthly contact-mags like ‘Pathway’ also had coded adverts such as, “Family friendly man…”

Not quite witty MAP Wilde’s description of erotophile Beardsley’s publisher MAP Smithers, “He loves all children, except boys.”


Last edited 1 year ago by HappyHumpingPup

I realise that you may not have an answer to this either, but I’m curious to ask you Tom the same question I asked Lial. Right now we seem to be still involved in the battle-to-prevent-the-battle. Lial seemed to suggest that local but anonymous organising might offer a way to build the critical mass to win that fight. You seem to be saying that PIE tried that and it didn’t really work. So then where does that leave us? What is the best way to make the topic of pedophilia something respectable people are at least allowed to have a conversation about?


I overall liked this blog post. Some question that came to my mind while reading:

“Spread knowledge, in your local jurisdiction, of encrypted spaces wherein discussions of youthlove advocacy can take place.”

Is that effective? I’m pessimistic about this.

“[Journalism] could further encourage similar action elsewhere, or grow the numbers of pre- existing groups.”

Aren’t antis and Fox News already going to do an excellent job telling everyone about any MAP activism that’s happening? I feel the effort might perhaps be better spend on something else, e.g. stuff that lets antis and others work for you. Leave stickers, leaflets, etc. at a queer event. Spray a big graffiti near a gay community center (onto something which is legal to spray onto). Use the MAP colors, one clear simple message, and a link to e.g. Newgon. The goal is to get conservative media talk about “LGBT+P” so much (even more than nowadays) that queer orgs can’t dismiss it so easily anymore. Put simply: Annoy assimilationists.

For online activism, cartoons and any media done in a mainstream-style can also create outrage (and thereby, awareness). I don’t think Newgon’s low-effort memes seem to be that effective, so some creative skills likely help.

Liana Lial

I’m glad you enjoyed the post. I would like to address some concerns, but it might be easier if I could pinpoint what exactly is concerning you. You’re worried about its effectiveness, but I’m unsure what about it makes you pessimistic, or what your standards of effectiveness are in this situation.

The immediate goal is simply to foster a network so that further action can be taken at all. For this purpose, although it may be a slow-burn, I do think it could be effective (and is at the least worth a few attempts.) As for creating even broader change, I think that depends on the actions taken by the group after this initial stage. It works in steps, and I can’t say I expect revolutionary change immediately.

As for the journalism and news: I think what you’re suggesting allows antis to completely control the narrative with no counter. They get to spin our actions without us speaking for ourselves. Fox News is, largely, making up things which can largely be dismissed as homophobic blathering, and I don’t see this as very conducive to creating our own narrative or having people acknowledge youthlovers as a legitimate group with their own political claims.

I think I should further note that the focus on centering our actions on queer spaces is hardly effective. It’s easily dismissed as homophobic blathering, I think, and I doubt we’ll be able to create a path to progress by trying to carve a space there. I think I’d focus more efforts on groups and spaces that are anti-SOR (Sex Offender Registry) and advocate the reform of “sex offender” laws. These places aren’t exactly accepting of us, no, but I think there might be some opportunity due to how these spaces confront many of the same issues as us.


Apologies for vagueness caused by brevity (200 word limit). [MODERATOR: SEE BELOW, END OF THIS POST] My pessimism is based on my own attempts at local activism. I’ve met a few other MAPs, but none of those living somewhat near me were interested in activism. Small MAP groups with political ambitions exist in Europe, e.g. some MAPs at Prague pride. I could be wrong, but IIRC current groups in e.g. Prague, Germany, and the Netherlands formed not because of “spreading knowledge locally of encrypted spaces” but rather simply through MAPs talking in online forums, finding out they live in the same area, and eventually meeting.

The mechanism I envision is this: MAP graffiti near queer spaces —> more media coverage by antis –> assimilationists are forced to educate themselves —> education means progress/concessions

Antis have enough power to control the narrative for the forseeable future. Let them. But a simple link in e.g. a leaflet is all we need for a counter. Antis love to tell queer orgs all about historical ties between MAPs and other queers. Let’s encourage antis to teach assimilationists more. A message like “protect MAP youth” + a link to mental health statistics is difficult to dismiss as homophobic blathering if repeated enough and expressed well


Cig Stab

Has anyone seen this recent, albeit lengthy, article arguing pornography not to be harmful to psychological and social well-being? It’s interesting the author discusses the issue of children being exposed to pornography, arguing that they, too, would not be harmed if exposed to it.

Article: https://blackfrancis.substack.com/p/a-critical-analysis-on-the-effects


First of all , a really insightful post. Thank You for taking the time to write it, it certainly was an interesting resource for me.

An interesting point to consider on this, comes from the recent debates and often one-sided viewpoints made as content creators on the likes of Youtube etc. Most of whom who could be deemed as self-internalized as “holistic and normalized” with an extreme reaction to MAPS and placing them into the “all paedophiles are nasty” mode of thought. Most of which self proclaim themselves as moralist antisjw generational spokespeople.

When one looks at social media, the problem lies with how horrifically one sided it is. So no matter the subject, the world has been branded into thinking the mindset that the worst offenders are the offenders themselves, not the system that makes them offenders !! Those who are pro MAPS or even dare to find faults with these organisations ideals are cajoled (if not forced through moralist gunpoint), to either be with us or be with them mentality. Anyone who disagrees with these mindsets are immediately accused of being left-wing, which puts the onus of truly focusing what ideology they stand for.

Recently the Guardian wrote a scathing account of the movie as a whole –Sound of Freedom: the QAnon-adjacent thriller seducing America | Film | The Guardian, branding it as feeding mistruths generated from the QAnon brigade and feeding into the paranoid “Fathers with Brainworms” phrase, that has been currently making the rounds to describe the anger fuelled and often violent protests against the LGTBQ+.To which the Guardian dared to criticize the faults of the movie, its message, the work of Operation Underground railroad. (which to me looks no better than a pedophile fixated Wagner Group without the tanks) and so on. To which they too were labelled as “in on the abuse of children”. There are other socio-political agendas to these mindsets as always, the anti MAP agenda is purely scapegoat.

The point I am making is that although anon and quiet hidden networks have its place, hiding really does not change minds nor offer a conflicting avenue to change minds. The way forward is by community and inclusion for all MAPS. We are living in a global network that feeds off us us as a convenient distraction for the worlds wrongs, we are as people the most misaligned and sexually misjudged population on the planet today, other than what happens with gay community in Africa.

We are living seriously, in a social agendas that is not too dissimilar with Nazi ideology and what or whom, is deemed fit to live and good for society and who is deemed for sexual – orientation genocide. From scaremongering parents to the rise of anti-paedophile hunter groups… it really has become a lawless state for MAPS for a long time. To me, the way forward is to do what every marginalized group needs to do, peaceful campaign, lobby, protest, have donators to pro-map organisations to employ lawyers to fight in the human rights courts and so on. Challenging mindsets is the way and sometimes loud and proud. As what was said before, through creative art and music, developing pamphlets and so on.

Last edited 1 year ago by PASTA
Ed Chambers

That shit like this is allowed to be made to propagate more lies goes a long way to show how society is based on a nest of untruths. Glad to see the Guardian speaking out against it – a nice read.


Totally agreed !!


Here’s the Propria Cures article, DUTCH/ENGLISH, corrections welcome!


Liana Lial

As I think on my writing, I am wondering if perhaps I could have put an even more keen focus on the local nature of my suggestions. I do believe the most eye-catching aspect of the writing is words like “anonymous,” and to some degree, rightfully so. But an important aspect of the organizing would be that it is local. I believe local networks are key for creating more substantial organizing. I hope that any reader of this will see and understand that it is not just important that these groups are anonymous, but that they are local as well.

It is far, far safer to organize anonymously without organizing locally. It is easier to create a group online and say, “let us all do this,” but in totally separate states, countries, etc. There is merit in this, I believe. Were the number of organizers larger, this more broad scope would be impactful. But in our current state, I simply think that this would mean that the organizing is spread thinly across these regions. Easier to ignore. Yet if there is a strong, or notable, presence in a locality, it will be far harder to be ignored, at least by the residents. Then can these broader scopes be brought about in an impactful way.

This is all, for now.


I typically just lurk and read all the delightful comments here, but I feel like I need to get in on the action this time. It’s fun to brainstorm and imagine what options we might have.

I appreciate your clarification that your focus is on *local* action. At first, I wondered what significance your post had, as we are all already communicating anonymously to some degree. But to communicate both anonymously *and* locally? Now that’s a tricky challenge.

I’d like to approach this problem by using myself as a benchmark. 1) How might a newly formed MAP-advocacy group reach *me*, and 2), if *I* were a member of such a group, what forms of advocacy would I be comfortable with?

As an average suburbanite who doesn’t get out much, reaching me would, ironically, be a lot easier through the internet. I like to read local news online, so I tend to catch wind of the noteworthy goings-on in my area, including the nearest major city. Are there any actions that a map-advocacy group could take to be covered on the local news? A simple yet powerful idea that’s already been mentioned is the use of fliers, stickers, and such. Leaving a stack of fliers at the doorstep of the local paper could be enough. Or perhaps one could leave a flier at the door of every home in a neighborhood known to be popular in the news; or maybe leave a card on the hood of every vehicle in the parking lot of a local mall.

One option that I often dream about is infiltrating the local LGBT group or the next local pride event. Leaving fliers, cards, flags, pins, and other promotional items lying around in that environment is sure to garner attention and spark outrage, leading to angry posts online for all maps to see. If you ensure that all the items are properly labeled and etched with the word “map,” as well as the name of your map-advocate group and any other pertinent information (website, contact info, approximate location, etc.), then it would be very easy for local maps and allies to find you. The only question then would be whether they’d want to. I suppose that would depend in part on how the group is advertised. Do we frame ourselves as activists or as a support group? Do we state clearly our position on contact? Food for thought.

As for the second part of my initial question, what more can can we do beyond fliers and stickers? Another idea I like, which you’ve mentioned already, is the use of blogs and journals for maps. Although there are already so many such blogs on the internet, having a blog written by those in your local community would be very encouraging. And the value of a local journal that could report on any laws or other happenings that might affect maps in the area is obvious. But is there anything we could do to affect real change in our area while remaining (relatively) anonymous?

Another of my favorite ideas is using non-maps who are partial to or even supportive of our cause as a proxy for map-advocacy. This is essentially what B4U-ACT does — lobbying professionals and researchers to study and improve the conditions of average maps — and they’ve been quite successful. What if a similar group connected with local lawyers and criminologists who showed signs of frustration at the status quo. Perhaps they recognize the unfairness of the sex-offender registry or they’ve noticed that the increasingly harsh punishments for possession of cp are counter-productive. A map-advocacy group could connect with these professionals, luring them in with the same premise that B4U-ACT uses: “by speaking with maps directly, you gain the benefit of demystifying a ‘potentially dangerous’ group and learning techniques for keeping children safe, and we gain the benefit of being better understood and all that follows.” Having local connections in the legal space would be huge, as many of the laws that affect maps are local, including those regarding age of consent.

The last point I want to make — I notice that this has gotten long — is that, as you said, local advocacy is likely the best means of offering genuine support to maps. When Dr. Allyn Walker was harassed off the campus of Old Dominion, the academic community supported them and offered them positions at other universities. What would have happened if Dr. Walker was an open map? When a map is outed to ther family and their employer, they are likely to lose everything. A local support group could go beyond the emotional support of a global, online group to offer financial aid or find a place for the map in question to stay until they’re back on their feet. Groups like this, if sufficiently large and well-funded, could embolden maps and enable bolder activism.

I hope I’ve done a decent job of illustrating some of the potential activities and capabilities of local map-advocacy groups. As I said, I don’t get out much, so if all of this sounds like a fairytale then let me know. Regardless, this was fun. Thank you for your post.


What if a similar group connected with local lawyers and criminologists who showed signs of frustration at the status quo.

It’s very difficult at the moment. Some bold initiative is needed to organize lawyers and criminologists, not speaking alone, but together. Otherwise it runs the risk of ruining their careers and lives.

Liana Lial

Some interesting ideas Phos!

Catching the attention of local news would most definitely be a useful strategy if it could be managed. The use of fliers, stickers, etc., has been one I’ve considered as an early starting action. It’s one that can be taken with relative ease and anonymity, give or take your ability to avoid the perception of onlookers. I think if done to the right amount, and particularly the right locations, it could catch the attention of local news.

Outside of this, you’ve obviously mentioned the local journals. Mixed with the local news and action, I think the journals could get a serious boost in notoriety. Perhaps this would bring in new people? I cannot be sure as I have not tried it, but it is most definitely worth an attempt. Now, a lot of what I’ve said so far has focused more so on building up a network to the point that more significant action can be pursued. So your question of how we can remain anonymous and seriously cause change in our area is a tricky one…

The trouble is that with bigger actions comes increased focus and more public demonstrations. The closer you are to the public eye, or to people in terms of literal proximity, the closer you get to your anonymity being sacrificed. I’m afraid that this isn’t something that can really be circumvented and, although measures of disguise (such as used in the Black Bloc) can be advised, anonymity could not at this point be as heavily guaranteed. Damage could only be mitigated.

If I recall, during the debate over the status of homosexuality in the psychiatric community, a psychologist spoke with a mask covering (https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.pn.2016.5a22). Perhaps actions of this variety could be taken? I don’t see it as out of the question as any youthlover group’s members are increasingly emboldened.

You’re spot on, I think, with your second to last paragraph concerning Walker and the potential of a group which supports its members. It’s setting that up which is the trouble, as I confessed earlier in my writing.

I’m happy that I was able to get you to poke out of your lurker’s shell with this article. None of what you said seems like fairytale to me, and I’m more than glad you’re giving your thoughts.


Fist off, I did not know you wrote an article for Propria Cures. I’m impressed. Do you have an english copy you can share? I google translated the dutch version, but it would be interesting to read the original english version.

With regards to the above post, how is this really different from what people are already doing? You talked about encryption for example. I think the existence of tools like LUKs, Tor, TOX, Tails, and Whonix are not news to many of us. I am already using all of those technologies, and I don’t think I am unusual in that. You talk about setting up anonymous communication spaces with vetting processes to validate users into higher levels of trust. Isn’t this already how spaces like BoyChat, LifeLine, PCMA, and B4um work? Or your talk of CL journalism. Isn’t that what Ethos, Alice Lovers Magazine, or even this blog are?

Along those lines, exactly what kind of activism do you have in mind? Newgon and PCMA are already engaged in all sorts of shenanigans with twitter, Wikipedia (I assume), and other websites. I’m not sure what more can be done from behind a keyboard without disclosing a name. Even if somebody did want to engage in some kind of in person activism, I’m not sure what that would look like. I guess they could march in a parade, but at this point I worry that would do more harm than good and even if that wasn’t true I doubt many would be willing to do it. Or maybe you could try to engage in more respectable forms of activism like working with academics and trying to change minds in the clinical world, which I think is what B4U-ACT is already doing.

I think many of us are already well versed in ways to communicate and organise online. That’s not really the problem I think we are having right now. The bigger question I struggle with is where exactly to direct all that energy. What are productive ways, beyond what people are already doing, to advocate more loudly for MAPs? Or even just ways that other MAPs are already doing that more people could help out?

In theory LifeLine is a support group. And it’s overt purpose is certainly just that. But I’ve always seen my work there as a type of advocacy too. My hope is that I can make pedophiles not ashamed of themselves. My goal is to make MAPs believe that they should be entitled to non-discrimination and the right to discuss issues of child sexuality. To try to show them that the self loathing many of them feel is not because of who they are but rather what society trys to make them think they are. I hope that by making more and more CLs think that they deserve better more of them will start to demand better. I also donate money to both B4U-ACT and the Free Spirits Council (hosts of BC and LL) so that they can keep doing what they do. For the moment, that’s the best form of advocacy I personally have been able to come up with. But I’m very open to suggestions.

Keep fighting the good fight Lial.

Liana Lial

I do in fact have an English copy. It is not the best work I’ve ever made, but it exists no less. It can be found as story #5, “COMING OUT,” in the English translation posted to Brongersma-Info (https://brongersma.info/PROPRIA_CURES_-_6_May_2021)

A lot of the advice on encryption and security is not new. I spoke it to set up and supplement my views on its pertinence to real life, local political advocacy. I would feel that I am glossing over something important had I not established these simple points, even if many readers will understand them already. The groups you mention do not seem particularly focused on establishing a network of private, personal communications which function in specific localities (e.g., towns, cities) for this purpose. This local (and quite anarchist) nature is key to me. Groups can attempt to organize people from broadly disparate areas, and there is merit in this, but substantial organizing necessitates these local networks. The encryption and communication itself is not the focus; it’s merely its usage.

Furthermore, and do correct me if I am wrong, but mags like Ethos (I have not seen Alice Lover Mag) seem intrinsically quite different to my idea. Ethos does not work on reporting the political advocacy or stories of localized groups or fostering the numbers or power of such actions. This is, surely, in part because these groups are unheard of, if even existent, currently. It is certainly a situation wherein the groups must exist before such a journal can, but insofar as these networks exist, there should be a journal to supplement their actions.

As said, I have intentionally kept the specifics vague. I thought that it should be up to the reader to consider what can be done with these simple tools. I am not opposed to discussing specific actions inherently (surely it will have to be discussed!), but that simply wasn’t what I was hoping to do with this article. However…

I do believe a large part of it would likely be growing the network itself to the point that it even can do anything substantial (which is the point of section 3 in some way.) I reckon there will be small-scale actions that can be taken. Creating political art, pamphlets, etc., that could be distributed or displayed at differing locations (and there is some risk to this, obviously. Everything suggested is inherently with risk.) I hesitate to give more specific ideas, as there are some which I would like to keep closer to my chest at the moment.

I hope this has been helpful.


So that is a distinction. I agree with you that as of right now nearly all of the organising around MAP rights is on a national if not global scale. Very little is done on a remotely local level. But so what? How is moving advocacy down to a more local but still anonymous and online level going to improve the state of affairs? If it meant in person meetings, then I could see how that would be a real change. (Though I suspect few MAPs are ready for that.) But as long as it’s online and anonymous, I’m not sure what it accomplishes other then making people even more freaked out about security (since by it’s nature everyone would already know what area you live in).

I could ask the question from another angle. I agree with you that there are a lot of parallels between the early LGB movement and the current state of MAP advocacy. In particular “the battle to prevent the battle” rings very true in both cases. So the natural question then would be how did the LGB movement win the battle-to-prevent-the-battle, and is there anything the MAP movement can learn from that?

Liana Lial

The point of moving it from a local scale is that it centers bottom-up organizing. It is my opinion that for any substantial change to occur, you will actually need a clear physical base of support. I do not believe if this base of support is spread thinly across the country that it will be capable of actually carrying out substantial acts of advocacy in-person. But if we build locally, we can build that physical base in a concentrated area, which I think better allows for the action I think many of us youthlovers hope to achieve. We can build from the bottom (local) to the top (national), but to begin national efforts when there is no local base of support seems ineffective to me.

As for your final question… It’s obviously complicated by the fact that youthlovers do not have local areas to congregate. There are no mafia-run pedo-bars, alas. I can speak to some tactics that I think helped. The Gay Activists Alliance had the tactic of “Zapping” politicians and professionals by disrupting rallies or meetings and forcing them to acknowledge the issues facing gay people. But at this point, they were quite far ahead, with Stonewall having occurred and substantial gay rights organizing having occurred in the form of the Mattachine.

The main thing is just to force opposition to acknowledge our political positions at all, like queer activists prior did, even if they treat them as ridiculous. What we need is to have coverage that actually properly acknowledges opposition to the age of consent, rather than just some vague blathering about “lawbreaking rapists.” I think to some extent, this has occurred in the controversies of people like Allyn Walker. Furthering it will heavily rely on the degree to which we can publicize events which might allow the narrative to switch to that acknowledgement (perhaps highlighting close-in-age exemptions and such minor situations might be a start, but I reckon an increase in scale would be necessary.)

I can’t say I have all the answers, really, but those are my musings.


So the natural question then would be how did the LGB movement win the battle-to-prevent-the-battle, and is there anything the MAP movement can learn from that ?

Accumulation of knowledge and public awareness. The difference is that the GAY movement relied on analog modes of activity (due to the lack of internet), while MAPs rely on digital ones (due to the lack of the possibility of a public presence).

Unfortunately, no matter what people talk about tolerance, they still gravitate toward prejudice based on visual differences. With great difficulty, adults have learned to accept adults with a different skin color, but still have not learned to accept the young people with a different age. This is the last taboo, which will inevitable be rethought sooner or later, like all the previous ones.

Last edited 1 year ago by Leonerd

For all post-Love Generation ‘gens’ Boomer thru Z, and counting Z+10…

[MOD: rest of post too long and low quality: barely readable, old news, plus potentially interesting but poorly sourced elements.]

Last edited 1 year ago by HappyHumpingPup

Society was still stuck on what Harris Mirkin called Phase 1, which consisted of dismissing dissidents. In his text The Pattern of Sexual Politics: Feminism, Homosexuality, and Pedophilia, Mirkin labels that first stage the battle to prevent the battle. In this period, there is an “overwhelming emotional and intellectual consensus” on the matter at hand, and the minority group is not yet fully conscious “of themselves as a group that has a right to make political claims.”

Therefore, I consider it important to form and strengthen the unity of the MAP community. Skeptical segregation is counterproductive. I mean the division into BL and GL, and the abandonment of the term MAP by many old-fashioned youthlovers due to the legal term “Minor” instead of “Youth”. In a some way, it’s ironical, since the gay men of the 50s preferred to call themselves “Homophiles”, neglecting the term “Homosexual” because of its clinical and pathological connotation. What their descendants from the modern LGBT have completely forgotten about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophile_movement

And this is related to the following statement.

The effect is cumulative and actions must be taken repeatedly so as to be understood as expressions of long-standing dissidence. This will bring us into a phase of struggle where it cannot be denied that there is a question to be answered, and a community of people to speak to. … We need to reach and educate both other youthlovers and teleiophiles

I like to think that accumulating knowledge about our MAP legacy and educating new participants is sort of Asimov’s “Foundation” necessary for the Youth/MAP liberation.


I hope the author is not Hatcher from fora B4U-ACT and VoA which I suspect to be a police agent calling himself Vadim Savescul?


the user’s nick was Hatter


I doubt very much that ID is a federal agent, having seen them take offense at almost everything and argued with them in the past.

Best also present evidence for a claim like that.

Ed Chambers

Why would it be? And what made you suspicious about their posting on VoA & B4uAct?

Liana Lial

Author here. I don’t know that you’ll take my word for it, but I’ve never registered on VoA. I plan to join one day, though. I’m only active on BC (Lial) and boylandonline (Liana), and I was briefly on B4U-ACT when I was younger, before realizing my age meant I wasn’t supposed to be there. Would like to reassure you further, although I’m doubtful of how.

In any case, I hope my writing and ideas can be taken in good faith.

Ed Chambers

Thank you for your thoughts. You describe very well where we are at in the MAP community atm & how we might proceed from here.

Your use of Orwell’s 1984 is very apt. It reminds me of the scene when Smith visits O’brien in the latter’s office. O’Brien describes the network of thought criminals as very real & as one in which no one would know anyone else within the network :


‘Until in a thousand years….’

Obviously O’Brien’s demonisation of the thought criminals is expected, but his explanation of how these networks organise is very relevant, and similar to how you have described in your blog.

Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
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