Today’s guest blog is by “Finlay”, who gives us a personal view of mental health from the perspective of a young “exclusive” MAP. Those of us (including me) whose level of sexual attraction to adults is none at all, or as close to zero as makes no difference when it comes to sustaining a legal relationship, have a particularly tough time trying to stay sane and stable in a hostile society, especially in the early years of coming to terms with our situation. So Finlay’s perspective, in which he presents many directly relevant good ideas based on his own experience, is important because it could be of real practical benefit, especially to all those MAPs – far too many – who lack access to competent professional help, of which there is unfortunately not much out there . Finlay, who is 28, is attracted to boys aged 6-15. He has studied the mental health literature, has been to a B4U-ACT symposium, and was a joint host of the MAPs IRL podcast.
THERAPY IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO IMPROVE MAP MENTAL HEALTH
Content warning: discusses mental health topics, including suicidality
MAPs, like other discriminated groups, have statistically worse mental health than the general population:
“The results showed striking differences between MAPs and the general population. … One-third indicated they had thought about taking their own life five or more times in the past year. … One-quarter self-reported severe hopelessness … The authors point to a hopeful solution: the increased development of programs which aim to help people attracted to children live happy, healthy, fulfilling lives.” (B4U-ACT Quarterly Review)
“MAPs in this sample reported exceptionally high rates of loneliness (higher than any other population I could find data on) and suicidality. The mean suicidality score was ABOVE the cutoff for high suicide risk.” (Findings from new paper announced on Twitter by researcher Ian McPhail)
In light of these statistics, a discussion on how we as MAPs can improve our mental health seems important to me.
Often, the focus on MAP websites, in research, as well as in conversations among MAPs and others seems to be on therapy, as it is e.g. in the first quote above. There are some potential problems with an exclusive focus on professional mental health services. Therapy is often:
- prejudiced against MAPs and therefore harmful ( see, for example, Adam Powell’s 2019 guest blog for HTOC; and Walker et al., 2021, for the situation in the UK and in Utah respectively).
- not immediately available due to bureaucratic barriers or high costs (see “Access To Mental Health Care In Europe”, EU Consensus Paper, Barbato et al., 2016, page 3).
- inaccessible due to social anxiety (which is likely common among MAPs, though I couldn’t find any research that examines social anxiety among MAPs specifically).
Therefore, I believe it’s worth thinking about how mental health self-help resources for MAPs can be created, collected, and distributed. A while ago, I looked at various popular MAP websites to see if any of them provide such resources, and didn’t find much ( see video, “Lack of self-help resources on most MAP websites”).
I believe the lack of such resources in most MAP online spaces is a problem. Besides loneliness, suicidality, and other issues described above, there are quite a few other common mental health problems among MAPs as well. A meta-analysis on the treatment needs of MAPs published last month found that “Pedohebephiles most commonly reported needing treatment or support for mental health problems, distress related to their sexual interests, depression, anxiety, suicidality, addiction, to get help coping with their sexual attraction, and/or addressing the effects of social stigma.” (Chronos et al., 2024. See also: HTOC guest blog by Dr Frans Gieles).
Resources on how to reduce symptoms of anxiety, depression, loneliness, complex PTSD, and other problems common among MAPs are theoretically easy to find online, but there are many potential factors that might cause MAPs to remain ignorant of them:
- The high rate of hopelessness cited above can likely lead to a belief that mental health resources offered to teleiophiles (i.e. people attracted to adults) won’t work for you yourself as a MAP.
- Similar to prejudiced therapy, some resources made by and for teleios can indeed be useless or even harmful to MAPs, strengthening their hopelessness. For instance, resources on loneliness may provide tips on romantic dating or where to find queer communities in your area, thereby reminding many MAPs of how many options other people have to reduce their loneliness, yet they don’t. This might cause a panic attack or suicide attempt, and lead a MAP to be too hurt or afraid to inform themselves again about improving their mental health by themselves, lest they risk triggering another such event. Looking up mental health resources shouldn’t carry a lethal risk, and MAP websites providing a carefully curated list of unprejudiced resources could eliminate such a risk.
- A lot of MAP research and society in general focuses on attractions, often neglecting other aspects of mental health. Particularly prejudiced studies and “therapy” may focus on attractions as a danger to be managed. Less problematic research and therapy might instead focus on MAPs building a positive self-image of their attractions and reducing internalised stigma. In both cases, however, there is often a lack of attention to the common mental health problems discussed above, i.e. “What is it like to be a MAP with anxiety/depression/low self-compassion/loneliness and what can be done about these issues?”. Since such things are rarely discussed compared to issues of internalised stigma, MAPs may not become aware that they are affected by them and/or can do something to reduce symptoms of e.g. anxiety or PTSD.
- Symptoms of complex PTSD are common among gay men due to discrimination, and, as the following two quotes show, it can be assumed that the same is likely the case for MAPs:
“‘We see gay men who have never been sexually or physically assaulted with similar post-traumatic stress symptoms to people who have been in combat situations or who have been raped,’ says Alex Keuroghlian, a psychiatrist at the Fenway Institute’s Center for Population Research in LGBT Health. … The weirdest thing about these symptoms, though, is that most of us don’t see them as symptoms at all. … ‘When you ask them why they tried to kill themselves,’ he says, ‘most of them don’t mention anything at all about being gay.’ Instead, he says, they tell him they’re having relationship problems, career problems, money problems.” (“Together Alone: The Epidemic of Gay Loneliness”, Michael Hobbes, 2017).
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“The aim of this exploratory study was to describe the adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) of male MAPs … The ACEs with the highest frequencies were verbal/emotional abuse (75%) and bullying by peers and siblings (78%), with around a quarter stating that these events occurred ‘very often’ (20% and 29%, respectively). … Implications for prevention and intervention are discussed, including the need for a trauma-informed approach when working with MAPs.” (Grady & Levenson, 2021).
It is possible many MAPs remain unaware of their symptoms of complex PTSD, just as many gay men do. This is yet another reason why resources about mental health problems that are common among MAPs could help to improve their mental health a lot if they were included and more prominently displayed in some MAP online spaces.
Resources and discussions on how to improve one’s own mental health have often been neglected among activists in favour of putting more effort into more confrontational ways to improve the lives of the oppressed, such as protests. After all, it can be quite difficult to improve one’s own mental health in a society full of discrimination, so it can be dangerous to think of one’s own mental health as if it existed in a vacuum, easily liberated from whatever society may throw at one by just yet another meditation session. For this reason and others, one might be tempted to focus exclusively on protesting, direct action, and other methods in hopes of quickly improving society, since in a better society achieving better mental health will be much easier.
However, improving one’s mental health can be very useful for activism, and concepts such as radical self-care have led to discussions on what a less “in-a-vacuum” perspective might look like, in order to improve the mental health of the individual and of communities.
The creation of a list of good resources is beyond the scope of this blog post, and I assume it should ideally be done by MAPs and others who are mental health professionals, unlike me. This assumption is based on a recommendation found in my favourite piece of MAP research, a 2009 Master’s thesis by Carin Marie Freimond, which I often referenced when coming out to friends and family when I was 18-20. Freimond formulated eight recommendations that she thought would result in improved quality of life for minor-attracted people. The second of these was to distribute a help guide for MAPs. She wrote:
Mental health professionals and sex researchers should collaborate to create a help guide for minor-attracted people. Many minor-attracted people do not know what to do when they begin to recognize the nature of their sexuality. A help guide that focuses on what to do, how to cope, and where to turn for support could be extremely beneficial for minor-attracted people. This help guide should be published on the Internet, and made available in sexual health clinics and institutions that provide mental health services.
Still, I hope that a brief subjective overview of some techniques that I have found helpful myself, to conclude this blog post, will illustrate to some extent what I imagine such a list of resources could look like, and what the resources within it might discuss. Of course, mental health problems are often deeply connected with one another, so separating them into categories has challenges associated with it.
Depression:
Coming out to friends and family as a MAP, and luckily them reacting positively, when I was 18-20 helped somewhat. Informing myself about MAP topics to reduce internalised stigma helped a lot. When I was 24, deciding to prioritise sleep above any deadline helped a lot.
Complex PTSD:
Learning to draw helped enormously, and I believe saved my life. From what I’ve read about PTSD, I think any hobby that interests you and gives you a feeling of control can potentially heal trauma, at least to some extent (Güzel et al., 2024). Simply learning about trauma also helped me a lot.
To my knowledge, as someone who mostly has just watched YouTube videos about the topic, trauma is any negative experience that overwhelms the brain and that it cannot process while it is happening. Therefore, the brain stores the experience to process it later (usually through grief).
Discrimination can be traumatic. Loneliness as, for example, an “indirect” form of discrimination can be traumatic as well (See, for example, Fox et al., 2021).
Everyone has trauma and small amounts might not really cause any symptoms. When you have a lot of trauma you develop coping mechanisms to deal with it until perhaps at some point in the future the brain feels safe enough to process it. Some trauma may never get processed if the brain doesn’t feel safe enough; nevertheless it is still possible to be happy, despite a lot of trauma.
Many parts of the brain don’t understand detailed explanations for trauma. They need an easy explanation: a) Something is wrong with the world (=cynicism)…and/or b) Something is wrong with me (self-hatred)…and that’s why this (has) happened.
There is probably nothing inherently unethical about these coping mechanisms, but they both have risks associated with them, e.g. conflicts within communities. MAPs with complex PTSD might cope with their pain by obsessively blaming other MAPs or other discriminated groups.
Reducing feelings of helplessness by focusing on things within one’s control can help to make the brain feel sufficiently safe to heal rather than just cope.
However, it’s possible to confuse coping with healing. I used to read literature on discrimination obsessively. My reasoning was that, since I would be much happier without discrimination, it likely was the only significant reason for my bad mental health. “If only I could spend time with other MAPs and boys everyday, then I’d be happy again,” I believed more or less consciously.
I knew there were other MAPs who had much better mental health than me, so I assumed they were more informed about discrimination than me, and therefore dealt with it much better. Yet, reading more and more obscure academic and activist texts didn’t seem to help, and so my desperation increased. Eventually, I realised that my reasoning was somewhat flawed, and how much drawing made me feel better.
After having watched videos such as this one, presented by Heidi Priebe, I now assume that my focus on obscure literature was a coping mechanism. I tried to categorise everything and put it into neat little boxes with polysyllabic names like “intersectionality” or “teleionormativity” in an attempt to maybe eventually feel safe enough to actually heal from trauma. What I didn’t realise was that being able to explain how discrimination works in detail isn’t the same as healing from its effects. Many texts on discrimination certainly helped me a lot to improve my mental health, but I incorrectly believed that they’d solve all my problems if only I’d read enough of them.
Loneliness:
Informing myself about how common loneliness is among even the general population has helped a lot, at least sometimes. Being aware of the stigma of loneliness (“Well Excel“, 2023; also blog, undated, by Megan Devine) and why statements like “Don’t give up hope!” can feel so hurtful to me has also helped. Loneliness is associated with a lot of shame in society, and reflecting on how it’s not my fault that I feel lonely has helped me a lot.
As e.g. this list (Mental Health Foundation, 2023) points out, it can also be helpful to occasionally reflect on how the online MAP communities you might participate in make you feel. In my own case, a few years ago I mostly stopped spending time in communities that focused on academic issues, since I found artistic MAP communities made me much happier.
Low self-compassion:
Prioritising sleep helped me a lot, maybe because it meant that I started valuing my mental well-being a lot more. Recently, I started writing affirmations, which research suggests can help (see Saundra Montijo, 2021). This means writing down every day sentences such as “I am lovable.” The intended mechanism seems to be that the brain can be rewired this way to think more positively about oneself, the act of using muscles for writing emphasising to the brain that those are particularly important thoughts.
I also recently started journaling, since studies suggest written self-reflection can increase self-compassion. For instance, writing down a few things you’re grateful for each morning can train the brain to focus on positive things. Writing down your accomplishments of the day in the evening can increase self-compassion as well, since often the brain has a tendency to forget about success and instead focuses on one’s failures.
Anxiety:
For many years I tried to develop a habit of meditating but failed. It might have been due to depression and/or ADHD. I realised last year that I have ADHD, and using ADHD techniques such as gamification I have now within the past two months managed to meditate more or less daily for about 10-20 minutes, sometimes more.
The World Health Organization states: “To help manage your symptoms of anxiety … learn relaxation techniques, such as slow breathing and progressive muscle relaxation; and develop the habit of mindfulness meditation, even if it’s just a few minutes per day.”
While I still find meditation difficult without audio helping me to remain focused, I plan to create my own MAP meditations eventually. These might be more motivating than general guided meditations found on, for example, YouTube. For instance, the few times I’ve so far managed to meditate without audio to help me, I used visualisations such as imagining meditating next to one of my paedo OCs (own characters, i.e. characters I designed and sometimes draw), and looking at relaxing light glowing in the colours of the MAP flag and creating BLogo shaped sparks. For me personally, there isn’t anything religious/spiritual/esoteric about my meditations.
In addition, journaling seems to also have helped me so far (see here). It is said you should never leave worries to just keep going around in your head. Writing them down makes them feel less severe. Using muscles for writing could also signal to your brain that you have paid attention to the worries, and so they are going to bother you less, or not at all. Lastly, writing down evidence challenging those worries can reduce them even more.
As a last point, a typical problem that I have encountered myself a few times is to spend a lot of time on informing myself about ways to improve mental health, and then feel overwhelmed by the ocean of information. Anxiety and PTSD often create an obsession for certainty, e.g. wanting to be sure about the perfect way to implement the most effective methods. Similarly, there’s often a tendency to start implementing many techniques simultaneously, which can make it harder to succeed in developing them into habits. If this happens, it’s important to be kind to oneself, and try to change one’s approach to focusing on developing one positive habit at a time.
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END OF GUEST BLOG. NOW YOUR USUAL HOST:
NAUSEATING NEWS AND NEWSROOMS
In a recent comment here, “HappyHumpingPup” pointed to mock outrage over the downfall of star BBC news presenter Huw Edwards. This outrage was evident across all the national papers, the story going so big it obscenely appeared to accord moral equivalence between, on the one hand, the presenter having naughty pictures sent to him and, on the other, the real horror story of last week in the UK – the murderous Southport knife attack on children at a Taylor Swift-themed dance event.
Lest the facts be overshadowed by subsequent rumours and rioting, it is worth repeating that three little girls were killed and others seriously injured. A teenage boy born in Wales to Rwandan parents has already been charged with murder and described in court having been diagnosed with “autism spectrum disorder”. He is said to be from a Christian family.
Mr Pup’s focus on this occasion never strayed from his personal bête noire, the BBC itself – Biased By Commission (& omission), as he puts it. On this occasion, at least, Pup’s hostility to the beeb seems to some extent justified when we cast an eye, if we can bear it, on the nauseating behaviour of Edwards’ erstwhile newsroom colleagues.
Possibly inspired by the Southport massacre at the start of the week, a couple of days later they couldn’t wait to stab Edwards in the back after he pleaded guilty in court to charges based on him receiving child porn. On Newsnight, Today, and elsewhere, they were falling over themselves to denounce a man they would have showered in fulsome tributes had he retired in better days. It was an embarrassing display of virtue signalling, apparently designed to establish their own moral probity against any whiff of guilt by association. They even seemed keen to stick the knife into their own boss, director general Tim Davie, for somehow not knowing Edwards would turn out to be a MAP.
If indeed he is one. It is possible – just – that his main interest is in young male adults i.e. “twinks” rather than adolescent boys or younger. Ironically, the BBC’s own court reporting appears to exonerate him from illegal intentions. We are told that a man he had been exchanging messages with on WhatsApp had sent him porn material, but it is questionable whether he ever requested illegal stuff from the guy. We hear the court was told that “the other man asked whether what he was sending was too young, to which Edwards asked him not to send any underage images”.
In a completely separate case, it was alleged through a story in The Sun last year that Edwards paid a teenager for sexually explicit photos. However, the police investigated and found no evidence of illegality – which strongly suggests that the young man was over 18 at the time. One recent report says, “The young man admitted sending explicit messages and videos to Edwards, who is said to have sent £35,000 in return over two years.”
Nice little earner, eh? Lucky young man! And what an utter shit he must be, to take the money then go to The Sun, wrecking Edwards’ life probably for no better reason than to make yet more money, this time from the red-top tabloid.
Even if, as seems likely, Edwards was keen to get hold of boy porn but reticent over being too obvious about it – as an intelligent man he would probably have been looking for some deniability in his messaging, in case the worst came to the worst – he hardly emerges as a monster of depravity. Merely having the hots for boys is no crime. The only monstrous thing about him is the grotesquely huge salary he was paid. But that is another story.
IS KISSING KIDS A WORLDWIDE THING?
Is kissing children found in all cultures? The question occurred to me after a Radio 4 programme in which it was pointed out that kissing, contrary to what we might suppose, is not a universal practice among adult sexual partners.
But surely, I thought, parents everywhere kiss their children (and the more enthusiastic ones kiss their kids everywhere, as do many passionate non-parental MAPs!). Or do they? Wikipedia’s page on kissing does not give a definitive answer but we are told that Andamanese children are kissed, whereas adults are not. And we hear the suggestion that kissing may have originated from parental pre-mastication of infants’ food. This would once have been something functional in child rearing, comparable to licking and grooming in other primates. Sounds plausible.
But this did not answer my question, and, short of wading through ethnographic libraries or quizzing a cultural anthropologist (but I might yet get around to that) , I wasn’t sure what would. So I decided to try AI. ChatGPT turned out to be pretty helpful, albeit without giving exact references, so we don’t know if it’s fibbing. My exact question was “Do parents everywhere kiss their children?”. ChatGPT hedged its bets slightly, but it looks as though in China and Japan kissing kids is not something most parents do. Can we believe that? Heretic TOC is read globally, and answers from Asia would be very welcome! Meanwhile, here is ChatGPT’s full answer:
Kissing children is a widespread practice, but it varies significantly across different cultures and contexts. Here’s a brief overview:
Western Cultures: In many Western cultures, kissing children is a common expression of affection. Parents often kiss their children on the cheeks, forehead, or lips as a sign of love and care.
Asian Cultures: Practices in Asian cultures can vary widely. In some countries, like Japan and China, parents may show affection more through actions rather than physical gestures like kissing. However, in other Asian countries, such as India and the Philippines, kissing children is a common affectionate gesture.
Middle Eastern Cultures: Kissing children is also common in Middle Eastern cultures. It is often seen as an important part of family bonding and expressing affection.
African Cultures: Practices in African cultures can differ greatly. In some regions, physical expressions of affection, including kissing, are common, while in others, affection might be shown in different ways, such as through storytelling or communal activities.
Indigenous Cultures: Among various indigenous cultures, the practices can vary based on traditional customs and beliefs. Some may use kissing as a form of affection, while others might have different methods of showing love and care.
European Cultures: Similar to Western cultures, kissing children in European countries is typically a sign of affection. The frequency and manner of kissing may differ, but it remains a common gesture among parents.
Overall, while kissing children is a prevalent way for parents to express affection in many parts of the world, it’s important to recognize the cultural nuances and alternative forms of showing love and care that exist globally.
FIVE-YEAR-OLD RONNIE, CELEBRITY HELLRAISER
Ronnie Foden, five-year-old son of England football star Phil Foden, already has a long career behind him as a celebrity in his own right as an online influencer, now with four million Instagram followers and cute YouTube vids on his CV, such as this lively item with some cool dance moves.
But fame at an early age is notoriously perilous and it seems “El Wey” (The Dude) as his fans call him has already become a hellraiser. A kids’ party that reportedly started around 4pm at his £3million mansion last week went on late into the night and was so loud a neighbour dialled 999 to complain to the police. Other local residents confirmed it was “louder than Glastonbury” with gangster rap blasting out, and “like being in a nightclub”.
One neighbour in his 80s said “I tried to drown it out with the TV but it was no good. It was like being at the party. I heard children shouting and screaming – I think they must have been jumping in and out of the swimming pool. He’s had parties before but nothing like this. This was crazily loud.”
Ronnie escaped arrest, though, as the police said it was a matter for a complaint to the council.
Ronnie’s parents were apparently unavailable for comment to the media, leading to speculation that El Wey had accidentally been left home alone, giving him the opportunity to invite friends around for an unauthorised rave.
GERMAN MAP SITE K13 IS BACK ON TRACK
German MAP organisation Krumme 13 suffered a serious setback at the beginning of the year when their American webhost GoDaddy took the website down and blocked access to the customer account. Even worse, they deleted the site’s archive, thereby destroying, without lawful authority, property that did not belong to them.
But this was not the end of the matter. Veteran website editor Dieter Gieseking, who founded K13 over 20 years ago in 2003, mounted a vigorous legal fightback that included a criminal action – yes criminal – against GoDaddy. Charges were filed against GoDaddy with the FBI in the USA and the public prosecutor’s office in Cologne, Germany. The allegation is that GoDaddy were not just in breach of contract, which involved a civil claim for damages, but that their vandalism also amounted to a criminal attack on freedom of expression and freedom of the press.
The threat of being put in the dock appears to have woken up GoDaddy’s legal people. After many weeks in which the corporation had ignored K13’s complaints they finally responded, offering an out-of-court settlement. Happily, this has been accepted and K13 is now back online with a new host. I have added a link in Heretic TOC’s Hotspots (see right-hand column). Unfortunately, everything from the old websites from August 2019 to January 2024 was irretrievably lost, but some items remain available in print form. Dieter further reports that there is a new archive of the old websites for the period from April 2003 to August 2019.
K13online is again in possession of the domain krumme13.org and court costs for debt collection proceedings were paid by GoDaddy. In return, the criminal charges were withdrawn and the debt collection proceedings ended.
And they all lived happily ever after. Well, maybe not. But not bad, eh? So, well done Dieter and K13!
If you enjoyed reading this blog, yesterday I made a video about attachment theory and in which ways it might be relevant for MAPs that builds a bit on what I wrote about PTSD in the blog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1aHSpEO_QQ&ab_channel=Foxoqyl
Make of all this what thou willst, but one thing is certain – the United Kingdom is imhabited by some truly ghastly, indeed psychopathic public actors and operatives..
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/my-night-with-the-paedo-hunters/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=WEEK%20%2020240912%20%20AL+CID_774c0ed9edabc3bb1e3ec61a933403c8
>the United Kingdom is imhabited by some truly ghastly, indeed psychopathic public actors and operatives..
ONLY in post-Reformation of Anglo psycho sadist serial-killer Henry’s convenience not conviction, with self-serving fake motto and junk media Bible bullshit “Dieu et Mon Droit” made modern tabloid trash “Here is the News, this is what we want you to think.”
lets hope some
innocentunder 16 attacks them and see what they think theni wouldnt have thought a post like this would be approved. but i guess wishing violence on violent people isnt so bad?? yeh its a sorry country. full of neanderthals.
U.S. short-memory MAPs Turp & HIG forget earlier/recent U.S. ghastly psychos & fake media actors. Pre-dating organized UK antis. Non-existent until decades after the 1962 UK couple who accurately observed the USA, “most unspeakable matriarchy in the whole history of civilisation”..
SeXy ’70s U.S. craZed Christian, Cuntry Singer Anita Bryant’s anti-LBGTQ ‘Save Our Children’ fake panic helped shutdown NAMBLA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Our_Children
2004-2007 NBC ‘Dateline To Catch A Predator’, closed down after causing the death by suicide of Bill Conradt an American local assistant district attorney in the Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex, who killed himself on November 5, 2006, when Texas police served him with search and arrest warrants stemming from a Dateline NBC – Perverted-Justice online sting of men soliciting sex with children. To Catch a Predator was a series that recurred on the TV news magazine Dateline NBC. Hosted by Chris Hansen, it premiered in late 2004, and was immediately an unambiguous ratings success.[1] For upwards of US$100,000 per episode,[2] the production hired the vigilante group Perverted-Justice to assist in the “exposure [and] arrest of men ostensibly interested in having sex with children.” Perverted-Justice entered chat rooms and posed as children to attract such men to a sting operation.[3] By early 2007, the segment had been praised by the United States Congress, and Dateline‘s own records counted 238 apprehensions and 36 guilty verdicts (15%).[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Catch_a_Predator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Bill_Conradt
Some may already be aware, but a paper on love dropped recently, adding to the relatively small but growing literature confirming that MAPs do in fact have romantic and love feelings.
The lead author, Julia Levitan, is a PhD psychology student at McGill University (Montreal, Quebec). Remarkably, she was targeted early on when she first dipped her toes into MAP research, with Reduxx attempting to fearmonger after Julia posted a call for participants on Boychat. Luckily, it seems she is unfazed and has bravely continued with her chosen topic, having now published alongside the other recent scholar to have published on love and romance among MAPs, Frederica Martijn, and no less than Dr. Michael Seto himself.
Her article is titled Minor-Attracted Men’s Lived Experiences of Romantic Attraction, published in the Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy (2024).
Some positive news!
Excellent!
I have just realised that soon after the Martijn et al. paper appeared, I wrote about it on the Sexnet forum in February 2020. Here is what I said:
John Money, you say? What do you mean exactly by his “taking paedophilic love seriously”? I kmow quite a bit about JM but never came across that aspect of his work! Directions, if you please Tom?
Well, under the heading “Pedophilic genius”, Money wrote about Lewis Carroll’s “devotion” to prepubertal girls and said that J.M. Barrie was “intensely attached to young boys and “adored” the boys in the Llewelyn-Davies family who inspired him to write Peter Pan.
I’d say that was taking paedophilic love seriously. This was pages 452-3 in Pedophilia: Biosocial Dimensions, by Jay Feierman (ed.), 1990. Money’s chapter, “Pedophilia: a specific instance of new phylism theory as applied to paraphilic lovemaps” ran from pages 445 to 463.
Wikipedia has the following:
Money stated that pedophilia, among other chronophilias, could be characterized as combining “devotion, affection, and limerence”, “comradeship with a touch of hero-worship” and ultimately as “harmless… in most instances”. [Janssen, Diederik (2017). “John Money’s “Chronophilia”: Untimely Sex between Philias and Phylisms”. Sexual Offender Treatment.]
Money told ”Paidika”, a now defunct Dutch journal of pedophilia, that:
“If I were to see the case of a boy aged 10 or 12 who’s intensely attracted toward a man in his 20s or 30s, if the relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual, then I would not call it pathological in any way.” [Interview: John Money. PAIDIKA: The Journal of Paedophilia, Spring 1991, vol. 2, no. 3, p. 5.]
Thankyou for this! My thought is that we could all get our learn on regards the Victorian world, perhaps most especially the scathing HHP? The era’s world of paedophilically inspired literature hardly began and ended with Carroll and Barrie, and there is no better place to start exploring it all than Kincaid’s book, which will challenge lazy assumptions at every point..
On John Money, I covered him on Newgon: https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/John_Money
All the relevant quotes and links are there :p
Oh and I read that Spectator article on P Hunters. Disgusting sick freaks these people. They always go close to the legal age too: they never create fake accounts of an 8 year old, always 14, 15, and in the U.S. up to 17. They get to dabble in the display of young people’s sexuality, creating fake accounts designed to be attractive, and then bait people who are usually men and usually nuerodivergent into having extended interactions which at some point inevitably see something expressed that can be perceived as sexual / flirtatious.
Some quotes from the Spectator article:
>It goes without saying that no one reading this should ever be messaging anyone who claims to be a minor in a sexual way, or even at all, but please god never lose your dignity for the entertainment of the sick freaks whatever the situation. Always, keep, your dignity.
And if you live in the U.S. or any other place where firearms are legal to carry, or if you just fancy checking up on laws around self-defence, always remember you may have the right to defend yourself from anyone who approaches you in a threatening manner. A man from Dads Against Predators was famously shot in an altercation, which is hardly surprising to me when you see the threatening, violent ways these men behave, acting like literal monkeys and goading people to fight them so they have an excuse to retaliate.
I won’t express how I feel about such matters… I will say that I have no respect for so called P Hunter groups: a conviction for pretty much any sex crime is hard enough to live with after the fact, finding work, relationships and so on; we shouldn’t be adding to that by making public pariahs of people who are often mentally struggling prior to any arrest and almost certainly struggling afterwards…
The only videos I’ve ever stumbled on have disgusted me. It always seems to be clearly autistic and neurodivergent people, foreigners who can barely speak English, or the elderly, who get targeted. All of whom could just have been lonely and surely don’t deserve life ruination over messages to a fake profile (not even real life sexual contact)!?
I know I’m not the only person to be shocked that such activities are tolerated. I quoted some scholarship about vigilantes here: https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Vigilantism
It’s also obvious that fears about being reported by professionals who are obligated to, being investigated and scandalized even if just locally with your neighbors after experiencing ‘the knock’ at the door (for example), is a massive barrier to MAPs seeking professional assistance.
More quotes:
>Literally praising violence…
>It’s sad we’re all so secular and don’t believe in a Hell because I’m sure there’d be a special place available for these creeps… Imagine the horrible effect on the mental health of MAPs, reading articles like these must have. Let alone young MAPs wondering what the hell they have to live for and what kind of future world they’re going to live in, having to share a world with people this hateful, and – dare we say it – predatory…
I do really think negative stories like this shouldn’t be a person’s focus, unless you’re productively working on creating backlash to P Hunter groups, shaming them / ridiculing them, or finding the deets of those targeted and supporting them in some way. In the absence of that, I strongly suspect that however interesting these articles are they’ll only serve to drive you into sadness and paranoid terror.
Plenty of people are just following along with what’s popular or accepted as okay in a given era, and haven’t fallen down the rabbit hole spending years reading the likes of Steven Angelides, Bruce Rind, and our dear own Tom O’Carroll. Their only exposure to MAPs is through the lens of criminal behavior, rendered with hostile dehumanizing terms like ‘predator’ that inflate the seriousness of any alleged behavior. Quite literally, they see reality differently. Some people will be die true believers and will stay that way till they die. Once you’ve swallowed enough misinfo and bigoted ideas, and especially if you’ve built an identity around being anti-P, you’re unlikely to be converted out of it short of, say, your own family member coming out to you.
For those who are too far gone, don’t bother trying to convert them. They’re wrong and we know it! (We can even prove it)! Bowl the rest over with links, memes, infographics; make it impossible to not acknowledge the reality of positive age-gap sex and the miserable second-class status of anyone even suspected to be a MAP; point out the increasing hysteria around legal age-gap sex amongst adults, the policing of writing, drawings and artwork, and the overreach of ‘groomer’ discourse to target gender and sexual diversity of all kinds; decry the body shaming of hairless bodies, femboys / twinks, and women with petite figures; shame and ridicule the Antis; publish, write, speak, form organizations, charities, NGOs.
If that sounds like a lot of work, that’s because it is! Think of how constant the vigilantes work, how constant the Victimological academics work, the NSPCC hack NPC sheeples, etc. It took a lot of work for the Victimologists to get where they are today; they won’t give up their very lucrative industry without a protracted struggle. Better to reform them from the inside so they’re supportive of MAPs. B4U-ACT is working from within to change the landscape of therapy forever, and in the process getting far more humanizing and non-sensationalist scholarship published. They’re a model for what can be done when you work smart (use pseudonyms where possible / relevant), and consistently work on long-term projects.
Some of these Antis are unrepentant murderers:
Every time they behave violently it’s a nail in their coffin. They show themselves to be thugs and bullies. Want to see an end to it? Document every case you see, screenshot an article caption, play around and make an infographic or ask around in PCMA to get one made. Use a secure email with a fake name to contact media outlets and get a think piece published. Hell, use ChatGPT to write a piece. Use gloves and leave print outs, leaflets, or stickers at places where there’s no recording (often public bathrooms), which has in itself gained massive attention online. Whatever you do, you’ll know what feels right to you, and if you’re committed enough there’ll always be ways to set the stage for winning a different, less hateful world…
Wow! That was passionate! And with good reason. Well said, Prue. I hope it gets a few people energised!
>On John Money, I covered him on Newgon… All the relevant quotes and links are there :p
Silly me, I forgot to look there! Would have saved me time rummaging around in my own files and bookshelves. Actually, I have a new blog coming up very shortly that has made use of this fantastic resource.
So dear Prue it seems to me we are at point of needing to ask two broad questions, not necessarily convergent, or at least not yet. My mind is but a divirgin, after all…
1) why would anyone seek professional help in the first place, if they feel/believe their most ardent desire to be at all real? How is what seems here to amount to the need (on every level?) for social validation to be understood, i mean really?, I have.never sought ( = desired?) such professionally endorsed validation and have in fact avoided it like the plague
I mean, am i able to even conceive of my desire as desire if i need to have it expertly blessed? (This just might be considered in light of a parallel question, such as can i even conceive of a thing called my ‘immune system” if i’ve always already parcelled it out to those who offer to regularly BOOST it on demand, forever?)
2) how can we GOHA (get our heads around) the awareness that we now find ourselves at the truly awful point of depending on the exact same language as that of those we understand to be our most dreadful oppressors?
Sick, disgusting, predatory perverts etc etc etc?
Dare we say? DARE WE SAY? Obviously resort to such terms is no dare at all, but is in fact quite the opposite.
It is what both cramps up to this moment are still depending on, right?
In such a ghastly house of mirrors, the rampaging ghosts of which party’s desire will continue to stalk us most effectively?
All.of which is to ask of any “backlash” if it can ever do any more than play by the same rulebook, the one that recasts us into the rôles we find our selves, even our souls, already occupied and defined BY?.
In a word, perhsps what i am asking is *how* does the whole idea of “mental health” not radically presuppose the biggest NORM of all? One where each and every one of our idiosyncratic paths converges on a single NUMBSKULL?
>My thought is that we could all get our learn on regards the Victorian world, perhaps most especially the scathing HHP?
Most especially Turp might learn more before making false assumptions about HHP rightly scathing of well known Anglo Victorian sexual repression still dominating the retarded 21st Century Anglo neo-Victorian psyche now mass mind-raping millions in the wider non-Anglo World – a new ‘psycho-lonialism’.
While free-spirit HHP has always gladly acknowledged the few brave Victorian MAPs openly expressing their desires imagined or real. Quote, Victorian visionary gay victim Wilde on Victorian erotic cartoonist Aubrey Beardsley’s publisher, Leonard Smithers, “He loves all children, except boys.” One of Smithers’ hobbies was ‘deflowering little girls’, about which wild-wit Wilde said, “He loves first editions.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Smithers
Plus, little known The New Epicurean: The Delights of Sex, Facetiously and Philosophically Considered, in Graphic Letters Addressed to Young Ladies of Quality is a Victorian erotic novel published by William Dugdale in 1865 and attributed to Edward Sellon. .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Epicurean
>Oscar Wilde said, “He loves first editions.”
Classic Wilde wit, but when he said of Smithers “He loves all children, except boys”, he was arguably nicking his line from Lewis Carroll, who said of himself, “I am fond of children – except boys” (Letter to Kathleen Eschwege, 24 Oct. 1879).
But would Wilde have been aware of this private letter? Maybe not. So perhaps more a case of great minds think alike than of plagiarism.
Is there a way to read this paper without paying a large fee?
Email one of the author’s praising their work and asking for a copy, they may be able to send you one.
Ask Richard Kramer of B4U-ACT, as he’s providing people with copies at their request. rkramer@b4uact.org
You can also read the past paper by Frederica Martijn via Sci hub, if interested.
If you want, give me a few days and I’ll get a copy myself and upload it to Sci hub, something I’ve never done but I’m sure it’s not too complicated. (This is also another way you can help out: if you spot gaps but have access to papers or book PDFs, upload them to Sci hub/libgen so they’re available to everyone. Small things but it could be your resource that makes a big difference to someone’s life. Lord knows i wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for IPCE, and then the many PDFs and books made available online, Terry Leahy, Robert Bauserman, etc.)…
Best ~
Thanks for the suggestions. If you can upload a copy to SciHub, please do.
Recent article that Mike Bailey and co. (all the cancelled and wounded academics) might enjoy, or at least find validating:
Cory J. Clark et al. (2024). Taboos and Self-Censorship Among U.S. Psychology Professors, in Perspectives on Psychological Science
Abstract
We identify points of conflict and consensus regarding (a) controversial empirical claims and (b) normative preferences for how controversial scholarship—and scholars—should be treated. In 2021, we conducted qualitative interviews (n = 41) to generate a quantitative survey (N = 470) of U.S. psychology professors’ beliefs and values. Professors strongly disagreed on the truth status of 10 candidate taboo conclusions: For each conclusion, some professors reported 100% certainty in its veracity and others 100% certainty in its falsehood. Professors more confident in the truth of the taboo conclusions reported more self-censorship, a pattern that could bias perceived scientific consensus regarding the inaccuracy of controversial conclusions. Almost all professors worried about social sanctions if they were to express their own empirical beliefs. Tenured professors reported as much self-censorship and as much fear of consequences as untenured professors, including fear of getting fired. Most professors opposed suppressing scholarship and punishing peers on the basis of moral concerns about research conclusions and reported contempt for peers who petition to retract papers on moral grounds. Younger, more left-leaning, and female faculty were generally more opposed to controversial scholarship. These results do not resolve empirical or normative disagreements among psychology professors, but they may provide an empirical context for their discussion.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/17456916241252085
>For each conclusion, some professors reported 100% certainty in its veracity and others 100% certainty in its falsehood.
LOL! Sounds a very interesting paper!
my friends partner, whos a lesbian, said i should get someone my own age. now, not being very assertive, i shuda said well, you get should get a man?? of curse, then id be in trouble?
From un-repressed French F.B. HOT Loli MAP musico Lemmonier:
“How and at what occasion I started masturbating, I don’t remember. I thought it was wrong, since I did it secretly and more willingly at school, where I felt safer. But the mistress showed up and warned my mother. One day, cheeks on fire, I was shaking in class and suddenly I saw her staring me hard through the door window. She then explained to me that it was being naughty for a little girl and not to do it again. But it had become a habit and I was hardly used to obeying. When the assault of desire attacked me, only some foreign presence had the power to stop me, otherwise I would confess myself powerless before the greed of pleasure. ” (Sister Emmanuelle, Confessions of a Religious Woman, Flammarion editions)
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=8464025166973739&set=a.114642121912127
https://www.mercurynews.com/2008/10/26/in-death-revered-sister-emmanuelles-confessions-of-a-nun-ready-to-roll-off-presses/
Amerika-
17 yr olds are childrenafter shooting-14 yr olds are adultFor Prime Time TV masturdebates in plain-sight HOT Shot MAPS SCORE Open Goals brain-dead antis can’t defend – no cuntest.
Sport for all – Sex for all. All-age brains developed kids can say ‘NO!’ or, ‘I dunno?’ or, ‘Yes PLEEZE!!’
Brains not developed? Numerous UK Kids convicted for committing criminal violence, can’t consent to mere mutual sex pleasure – brain-dead antis please seXplain?
(Tom’s old home patch) Leicester man dies from criminal violence by brains-developed kids. Detectives arrest five children – a boy and two girls, all 12 years old; and a boy and girl, both 14.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/03/five-children-arrested-over-murder-80-year-old-man-in-leicestershire
Children as young as 11, including a girl of 13, arrested in UK anti-migrant riots.
https://www.aol.co.uk/children-young-11-caught-uk-154737767.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEh0lRvFXDHPR3g9Q7pKs_1gx0XmJy7Z5d2VcMx4WPgw320KDCxGdVY-4Edd7elrHh936idL87zyG6tpQeYgPDSrNwm3FDLKiw5SXQrfO4N-nD76j3U7CrbCYNwgYwImTBkzhkymO-tSfzkdDPBz17RjhnIus7rgGkOTh7w5nw8M
14 year old kills 80 year old, 14 year old shoots up school. so innocent and incapable ! these hypocrites need a slap
>these hypocrites need a slap
They need constantly EXPOSING & TRASHING in prime-time media masturdebates DOMINATED by HOT Shot MAPs & AAMs.
Thank you for the article Finlay. I enjoyed the “MAPs IRL podcast” as well. It is beautiful and rare to hear real voices talking about these topics.
Its nice to hear that some Maps get supported by their parents (hopefully one day more parents will provide such support rather than choosing denial) because support actually helps with mental well being where as denial seems to make things worse, its also good Finley that you have been given the opportunity to meet other Maps in person and maybe Tom has some information on when and where you guys meet up and I could fly to the US myself and meet up with you all?
[MODERATOR: Daniel has added a bit more here, inviting me to comment on actual or potential IRL MAP meetings. This is unfortunately not an area in which I personally currently feel able to involve myself or offer advice, but others are welcome to make suggestions.]
Thank you two for your comments!
I’ve been thinking about maybe attending MAP camp next year: https://www.mapcamp.net/
Information about future B4U-ACT workshops can be found here: https://www.b4uact.org/get-involved/attend-a-workshop/
Thank You Finlay for the links, I am not much of a camper but if there are any workshops I could go to (I would stay in a motel near by) then that would be great.
I hope you enjoy the camp and is a song you might want to listen to while you are there finlay Oingo Boingo – Little Girls Lyrics – YouTube
Fuck the dumbed-down Anglotalitarian Dominant Narrative, tight framed by the small view ‘Overton Window’, well described by MAP Chomsky, “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.”
Dominant narratives, sometimes called dominant cultural narratives, are frequently-repeated stories that are shared in society through various social and cultural institutions. The term is most frequently used in pedagogy, the study of education.
MAP Chomsky’s good buddy, MAP Allen, SeXy ’75 as an ancient priest in his ‘Love and Death’, “I have lived many years and after many trials and tribulations I have come to the conclusion that the best thing is, blonde twelve year old girls..TWO of them whenever possible!!”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_narrative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNWGVpwgzz4
Excellent! Love when you post video clips of historical artifacts showing saner times.
>Excellent! Love when you post video clips of historical artifacts showing saner times.
Thanx, HIG. Your younger bright views give hope for a saner future.
Maybe a stream of sane clips and facts can be homed on a new YT Chan, entitled, “It’s Only Rockin’ SeX but we ALL like it!”
Meanwhile, your true view of the modern phoney Anglophone DOMINATED by sexually jealous menopausal wimmin is perfectly seXpressed in this Swingin’ 63 deeply insightful scene penned by a sane UK couple, US-born Bill Rose and German-born wife Tatiana/Tania Price.
“The most unspeakable matriarchy in the whole history of Civilization!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hln19l9RtWg
Righteous!
Also ironic considering the worst “anti-pedophile” feminist cultural influence comes directly from the UK, which is then codified into draconian law in the US, to be exported to the rest of the world as best the government can manage.
A bit like when Peter Thatchel and Helmut Kentler Helmut Kentler – Wikipedia crossed the Overton line but then changed their minds
I don’t remember Kentler changing his mind.
It seems rather debatable. Newgon has this:
https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Helmut_Kentler
Prue probably knows more.
Prue probably knows more.
>I’d certainly like to know more, but the language barrier and archival barrier prevents me from doing so. I’d like to find and perhaps run through a translator, any study / gov report done on the ‘Kentler Scandal’. Would like to make PDFs of his books and run them through translators too, if possible. Just as I would like to do with the very different individual, but no less interesting, Ernest Borneman.
Both of them share Leftist values before the Left was split by identity politics, and before the dissolution of the Soviet Union and great Socialist states, so getting a window into their thinking, how they frame things, is really interesting to me. I’m not insta-horrified by news reports because I always look for the writings / thoughts of the source / person being talked about, so I’ve bothered to read what little of Kentler’s own works are in English. That’s just one thing atm: his introduction to the sex education book Show Me! He shows his Lefty cred / understanding and makes lots of interesting points; read it here: https://www.boywiki.org/en/Show_Me!_(book)
In fact, one thing I lament and will correct in some fashion one of these days, is that there’s no concise summary of the German MAP Movement on Newgon. I went to the trouble of contacting Peter Schult’s biographer, getting a PDF from him, and running it through a translator. That led to the most detailed page about him and that book anywhere on the web. There’s nothing stopping others’ from doing similar things. Doing their own translations, contributions, meme-making etc. etc., however you can contribute. That’s especially relevant for German speakers when it comes to Kentler etc.
Interesting to note that NY Times quotes Gunter Schmidt, who I’d made a page on.
Rudiger Lautmann’s (translated) obituary for Kentler is interesting and paints him as an extremely well-respected, kind person, who even in his old age worked to help others. Quote:
Wow, that’s a wonderful response! Thanks, Prue!
Update: A German researcher, Teresa Nentwig, wrote a report on Kentler, and I’d assumed it wouldn’t be available but hey presto it’s apparently downloadable here: https://www.uni-hannover.de/?id=8351
It’ll be in German but you can easily run it through Google translate and get a good idea.
She’s also produced a book on Kentler (in German). Description reads:
So, she’s probably got something of interest there 🙂
At a whopping 752 pages, Teresa Nentwig’s book would appear to be thorough, but sadly that doesn’t mean it is necessarily fair. An indictment requires careful scrutiny as to its strength, rather than casual judgement based on its weight.
And this book does appear to be a “weighty indictment”, a case for the prosecution, as indicated by Google translated “highlights” from your linked description:
Still, it would make an interesting read. As with Kinsey, and others posthumously discredited, readers might feel from any new facts disclosed that there is a good case to be made for the defence.
In case anyone wants to run the linked German report through a translator, just a heads up that the file won’t translate with “Helmut Kentler” in the title. I kid you not, even if the file size is small enough and even though a larger file can take longer, if you have that name in the title it won’t work. Not Google, not Yandex.
I’ve already stumbled on something interesting, reading a translated version. Quote:
So, who was Hartmut von Hentig, apparently now “very controversial”? Well, it’s a different scandal of another influential anti-authoritarian educator. Reading translated Wiki pages, the page on von Hentig tells us that he’s an extremely influential proponent of anti-authoritarian educational theory (pedagogy), is the literal formulator / creator of the Socratic Oath(!!!), and helped to set up and teach at a the University of Bielefeld. His controversy is that he was close with, and a lover of, Gerold Becker, head of the state-approved alternative, progressive boarding Odenwald School.
In the third volume of his memoirs in 2016, von Hentig admitted to his love affair with [Gerold] Becker and suspected that he entered into [a homosexual relationship with him] in order to overcome his pedophilia:
Apparently, in this autobiography, he portrays Becker’s sexual contacts with young male students as consensual, and questions the credibility of the self-identified victims, seeing news media and official investigations as part of a social-political backlash: “witch hunts”, “rampant conspiracy theories,” against the liberal intelligentsia. There’s a German film dramatizing the alleged sex abuse at this school, called The Chosen Ones (2014).
I discovered all that by looking up a name. The interesting things you can learn! :p
And how about this?:
Incredible quote. I’m not sure if Kentler actually was the first German to do so. There’s a long history of homosexual struggle in Germany prior to the Sexual Revolution, discussed in Biespel Peter Schult with key figures such as Magnus Hirschfeld, Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, and Theodor Beer. At its origin, the homosexual movement was divided between the Pederasts on one side, and the Sodomites (‘men loving men’ over 21 only) on the other. But, in terms of the Sexual Revolution and Gay Lib era, it sounds reasonable to say that Helmut Kentler was an early adopter of an open gay identity and early gay / LGBTQ+ / queer advocate, especially if (like me) you follow David Halperin’s definition of Queer: “by definition that which is outside the norm”.
Try the Deepl translator: https://www.deepl.com/translator
I translated the title with first paragraph, and the title reads “The expert opinion on the Helmut Kentler case”
I wonder what reasons Teresa found there? Maybe society simply wasn’t so prejudiced because there wasn’t the moral panic that’s happening now, wasn’t it ?
Maybe the ignoramuses are just overcomplicating everything again, just remember racism and slavery, anti-Semitism, punishment for masturbation and homosexuality, marijuana ? Maybe it’s time to figure out that chronophilia is the last false taboo that exists because of the fear of youth sexuality.
I wonder what reasons Teresa found there? Maybe society simply wasn’t so prejudiced because there wasn’t the moral panic that’s happening now, wasn’t it ?
>Basically yes, that’s the answer. To quote from a translation of the report:
Kentler wasn’t wildly exceptional for the time within the Left wing progressive radical space he was seen as occupying. What was exceptional, was his experiment to place young prostitutes into foster care with people who were known to be sexually attracted to them, pederastic and pedophilic homosexuals.
Quote:
Valuable quote, although imaginations will run riot over what could have been so awful about Bahnhof Zoo!
Very interesting, thanks Prue.
And Thatchel probably just pretends to avoid being punished by the SJW Inquisition.
Fuck the Anglo divisive LGBTQPZ.
Check the World inclusive MACs MutuallyAttractedCreatures.
the rainbow flag is non inclusive. and i got banned from a bar for sayin that.
>the rainbow flag is non inclusive. and i got banned from a bar for sayin that.
Barring divisive Anglo SeXclusive bars, there’s no ban in all creation INCLUDING ALIENS somewhere OVER-the-Rainbow mutually attracted to other creatures MACs.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3361224/?ref_=ttpl_ov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Favorite_Martian
Two points must be made:
1) Ubiquitous Feminism. Is it a coincidence that persecution of under 21 sexuality (it’s really 21 instead of 18 now) is the worst in human history when we also have a record number of single, politically enfranchised middle aged women? And when women are allowed to have a complete legal stranglehold over their simp male partners? The answer is obviously no, it is not a coincidence, as age is the universal and biologically wired insult to a woman competing in the sexual marketplace with younger women.
2) Point number one is and has been the perfect excuse for tyrannical governments to use this out of control feminine (and weak male) fake rape power to pursue political targets, aka the Epstein underage blackmail operation and now Andrew Tate for talking against Israel. So why would governments ever stop pushing this agenda, when all they do is gain from it?
These are the reasons why “sexual liberation” applies to all things except, curiously, the appreciation of young love and lust. The culture is feminist, and the government stokes this feminism to achieve its goals because it’s very convenient.
so you think kamala harris will raise the AOC???
>so you think kamala harris will raise the AOC???
No phoney Fascist Anglophone duly elected short-term leader can ever change their ever unelected permanently ruling elite Banks, Military, fake-Media. For fake ‘Victims Industry’ careers, ratings, profit Power & Control. Deviously masked for their permanently kept dumb infantilised masses as so called ‘Public Protection’ from ever useful fake scapegoats ongoing over 4-centuries on five continents. From Catholics to Africans to Asians to Injuns to Frogs to Chinks to Krauts to Muslims to Gays to Reds-under-beds – to Peds IN the fuckin’ beds!!
Kinda kwote unelected Anglo ‘Age of Endarkenment’ fake-media Mon$ta Monarch MurDark, “It matters not who is P.M. UNDER me!” Plus, “If it bleeds it leads!” Bonus, 1952 BIG Flick ‘Ace In The Hole’ BIG City hack to small town cub reporter, “Didn’t they teach you in that journalism college ‘Bad news sells best’?”
Elite phoney Anglophone p$ycho $ubtext, “No profit in peace.”
For the AAMs and all-age LACs/LoveAttractedCreatures. F.B. Marylin Monroe fan Kevin Roland.
Kevin Roland
One for the Zoophiles/ZAPs and all LACs/LoveAttractedCreatures
Late great French Love Magnet Alain Delon interviewed by un-great Anglo Victorian BBC in Swingin ’69.
Interesting sounding book I stumbled on: Tomorrow Sex Will Be Good Again: Women and Desire in the Age of Consent (Verso, 2021).
Description reads:
“?And how do we take sexual violence seriously, when not knowing what we want is key to both eroticism and personhood?”
IIs the above quoted sentence not truly bizarre?
A new / relatively recent book I can’t quite believe got published, Desire and Consent in Representations of Adolescent Sexuality with Adults, edited by Maureen Turim and Diane Waldman (Routledge, 2023). [Available via Annas Archive: https://annas-archive.org/md5/4fa70e80b76950d605027ac3d94c1bdf ].
The first editor has also authored Consent Culture and Teen Films: Adolescent Sexuality in US Movies (2023, Indiana Uni Press).
Looking up some of the authors, the main one that stands out is Timothy Shary, who seems very grounded and reasonable in his lengthy discussions of Boyhood in Cinema. He’s got a whole book on the topic, Boyhood: A Young Life on Screen (2017), has contributed to numerous relevant-sounding anthologies including Virgin Territory: Representing Sexual Inexperience in Film (2010), and edited the collection Cinemas of Boyhood: Masculinity, Sexuality, Nationality (2022). His book chapter De-ageing and Denying the “Older Man” in Recent Hollywood (2022) also sounds interesting.
I think, sometimes, it’s easy to get caught up in tales of cancel culture, and think that all academics are running scared in paroxysms of terror. For many that doesn’t seem to be the case. But, I’ll grant you that cancellation isn’t all that easy to predict. And, because these academics are writing about films, it seems unlikely to me that they’ll need to seek ethics approval from their university for much of their work. I’d never heard of any of these people before, and I doubt that many other people have. Their work has probably only been read by other academics, students, and interested individuals who are not filled with hostility. Good for them, and good to see important work coming out of contemporary film studies!
It is good to see that this interesting book has found a prestigious academic publisher (Routledge).
“Cultural studies” works often tend to obscure any radical messages they might have in a fog of ambiguous verbiage, but I am pleased to see this one nailing its flag to the mast with some clarity. The Abstract says:
Of course, it is easier to be positive about “the expression of teenage sexuality” (especially that of fictional characters) than the expression of adult sexuality with teenagers. Even so, I see that the usual ritual absolute condemnation is avoided here. Adult power is acknowledged, but it is not asserted that such power will inevitably be used in a bad way, to “abuse and manipulate”.
Have they really started to think that since the late 90s, there has been a tendency in the film industry to cast people noticeably older than the required age in the roles of schoolers ? It’s gotten to the point where 30-year-old actors are playing 15-18 year-olds. In the latest film adaptation of Dune, 15-year-old Paul Atreides was played by 26-year-old Timothée Chalamet. In the popular teen series for teens “Sex Education” the lead actor Asa Butterfield was 22 years old and his on-screen friend was 27. Although it would be more correct for Asa to play this role being at a more appropriate age, like in 2013 when he was 16 and came on Connan’s show and made it clear that he had long known all the meanings of the word “Wanker”. Well, and there is no need to talk about the film adaptations of Romeo and Juliet, in which Juliet has never been 13-14.
well if 30 yr olds can play 15 year olds, then surely theres not much difference between those ages? what age was juliet supposed to be? i know the 1968 version had a topless 16 yo olivia husseey in it. (shes complaining about it 50 years later, how sad) i was hoping hailee steinfeld would have been nude in the more recent version, but of course, being capable to drive means you have no capacity to lift your top off.
I have got a question for heretics here and Tom: Lets say a boy between the ages of 14 and 15 years old has a sexual experience with a man who is in his sixties or early 50s and the boy doesn’t like it cos he is not gay and then copies the experience by doing similar things to his brother ie touching him and playing with his body parts because at the time he was under the genuine delusion that this sort of behavior is a normal thing and thinks its ok, then is it right or wrong for society to label the boy as a sex offender and tell him he is evil or should they have more sympathy for him and tell him he has done nothing wrong?
teens are incapable, so he should be let off.
Thank you for your support Matt, and to let you know the person I was talking about is allegedly me, and also that my real name is not Jeff, my real name is Daniel Smith, I have met Tom in person but sadly we both parted ways on bad terms which I regret, its just that at the time I was only just opening up about my sexuality and I was in the wrong place and things just went tits up as a result and I can only hope that Tom can understand that and let bygones be bygones and try to forgive me for upsetting him in any way?
Hi Daniel. Least said soonest mended.
Tom
I trust you are keeping as well as you can
Yes, thanks, very well. Hope you can say the same.
I am in a better place now, my circumstances haven’t changed much but on the positive side of things I have managed to process my situation and it has help me to move forward in a more positive way, I haven’t changed my contact details so if you want to contact me in private then you can still do so.
I am glad you are thinking positively, Daniel, and note the rest of what you say.
>I am glad you are thinking positively, Daniel, and note the rest of what you say.
I think I understand what you are saying and you can correct me if I am wrong (I just want to be clear) you are telling me that I should not let any emotional feelings I may have get the better of me.
I don’t want to say anything shallow, Daniel. I don’t want to instruct you in how you should feel. I am not a therapist. I am just pleased to note that your own thinking seems to have brought you to a better place than you were in before. Self-reliance is good if you can manage it. That said, I think it is worth paying careful attention to Finlay’s blog and comments.
By the way, about the list of mental health resources I mentioned in the blog:
If any MAPs have any resources they’d like to see included in such a list feel free to add them in a reply to this comment. This could e.g. be resources that (have) helped you or other MAPs.
I might start working on a resource list this December. Unless, I find a MAP with professional experience in regards to mental health topics who wants to work on such a project. E.g. a MAP who has studied psychology or is a therapist. In that case, I’d offer my help if it’s necessary, but otherwise they’d likely have a better idea on how such a list can be designed and what should be included to be as helpful as possible.
At the moment, I envision the list to have something like the following structure:
1. a short paragraph or two on what a common mental health problem among MAPs is (e.g. what is general anxiety disorder?)
2. a short paragraph or two on how this mental health problems can affect MAPs specifically (e.g. MAPs with general anxiety disorder might avoid going to places with young people, avoid using the internet, avoid talking with other MAPs, and/or avoid looking at legal erotic drawings due to excessive worrying that this could lead to somehow people finding out they’re MAPs)
3. a list of links, each followed by a short paragraph on what aspect of the mental health problem is discussed (e.g. a link to a YouTube video where a person talks about what helped them reduce their anxiety symptoms, a text on common misconceptions about a certain mental health problem, or to a questionnaire that can be filled out and help a person to find out if they might have a certain mental health problem)
4. ideally (but most likely way too ambitious) a few short testimonies from MAPs who are struggling with and/or have overcome a certain mental health problem
5. number 1-4 for the next common mental health problem among MAPs, and so on
Future versions of such a list could of course be expanded in various ways. For example, the list could have a section on how positive coming out experiences can possibly e.g. reduce symptoms of anxiety. Or, how it is very common for MAPs and others to worry for years on how a person might react to a coming out negatively, only to find out they have no problem with it. So the list could explain that worrying about a negative reaction to a coming out might be explained as, alongside legitimate fears, symptoms of anxiety. So a MAP who wants to desperately come out to friends or family but has been unsuccessful to overcome their fear might then realize that by using methods to reduce symptoms of anxiety they might finally be successful in finding the courage to come out. It could also discuss how a coming out might cause anxiety symptoms in the other person, and that an initial negative reaction might not necessarily mean they’re going to have a negative attitude once their anxiety has decreased and their amygdala/fight-flight mode is deactivated again.
I imagine what would be really helpful for deciding what to include in such a list would be research looking at the 5% or so MAPs who have the “best mental health” in whatever way that’s measured. By analyzing their habits it could perhaps be possible to find out what tends to helps MAPs the most. I mean, there might always be confounding factors like some MAPs having good mental health because they’ve been born into a wealthy family. Maybe there are such studies for other discriminated populations, though I speculate their findings might not be transferable considering that the situation of MAPs is unique compared to a lot of other discriminated groups.
7 Habits of 7 Highly Successful MAPs. I can see it paddlesteaming its way to the top of the NYT Bestseller List already…
Finlay
Something I have noticed is that some Maps who have either outed themselves or have been wrongly accused of putting their sexuality into practice claim to get harassed by vigilantes and as you can imagine if what they are saying is true then obviously that is going to have an impact on their mental health so maybe we need to find a way of getting society on board with if not allowing us to get the aoc removed (which would be ideal of course) than at least finding a way for Maps to some how live in a more tolerant society.
“we need to find a way of getting society on board with […] finding a way for Maps to some how live in a more tolerant society.”
I agree that that’s a valuable goal. I don’t know if current society is a place where some MAPs could really be happy even with the best professional mental health services available. So for some of us, activism might be the only way to really work towards better mental health.
Like, maybe the “perfect” mental health practice (“perfect” in the sense of what it might ideally be able to achieve in an oppressive society) could help even a MAP like me who isn’t attracted to adults to stop feeling lonely. Or maybe not. I guess that’s something research could perhaps find out.
An non-exclusive MAP in the study by Freimond I mentioned in the blog says:
“By re-examining his attitudes about sexuality, [Ben] claims to fight against the widely held belief that minor-attracted people must either gain sexual fulfilment by molesting children or remain ‘miserable’ in a state of celibacy. Through an exploration of Dao-ism, he explains that he is ‘starting to get to a satisfying way to be in touch with my sexual energy in a positive way.’ […] He claims there are options for minor-attracted people aside from choosing to be either ‘miserable or criminal.’ However, Ben notes it is extremely difficult to explore the alternatives and find a satisfactory place for oneself as a minor-attracted person, given that ‘the dominant social narrative about sexual identity is that you have to fulfill your sexual desires.’ He says this attitude leaves no conceptual room for there to be a
‘happy pedophile’ unless said pedophile breaks the law by engaging in sexual activity with a minor.”
I think there’s some value in what is quoted. But overall, I’d say I view such statements with a lot of scepticism. I speculate that for most people who have romantic and/or sexual attractions, the knowledge of likely never being able to express those attractions with a person they find attractive causes extreme pain. I assume it’s quite similar to torture. I mean, for example, both torture and loneliness often cause PTSD. The pain might change or get weaker a few years or decades after one’s initial realization of being a MAP, but the (often lethal) suffering the realization causes for at least a few years (and usually much longer) seems somewhat inevitable to me in current society. The reason it can get weaker I assume is because one develops strategies to deal with it, either unconsciously or by intentionally informing oneself about improving one’s mental health and how to deal with loneliness, and then implementing that knowledge into healthy habits. But doing that often takes many years. An exception to this common suffering could perhaps be 10-16-year old MAPs who are so lucky to have other MAPs in their social environment (classmates, parents, etc.) with who they can share their thoughts and feelings with. I have met a MAP or two in person who told me they were this lucky back when they were younger, but young MAPs finding other young MAPs in their social environment seems to be a still rare phenomenon, though.
I realized I’m not attracted to adults when I was 10 or 11. If a MAP had told me back then “You should try Dao-ism to feel less lonely,” I would have felt not at all like the person understands my situation. A list of the sort that I have in mind is of course not going to be a magical solution, either, but perhaps it might be a step towards more helpful approaches. MAPs have created a lot of manifests and political texts, but to my knowledge there is no document yet created by MAPs to help other MAPs improve their mental health.
As has been extensively documented, the industries of therapy and psychiatry profitably persuade their clients that the solutions to their deep pain – which are caused by societal pressures – lie within rather than by changing the world. A lifetime of therapy cannot help someone who cannot ever hope to lawfully enjoy a consensual, fulfilling sexual & emotional relationship. But it can provide careers for those providing that therapy.
No longer do psychiatrists treating women who are depressed because their husbands treat them badly, or their employers refuse to take their work seriously, callously say “Well, you must simply accept a bad situation which will never change”. Yet that’s how it is for MAPs.
Yes, I think you bring up good comparisons. The way I see it, it’s helpful to look at the differences between the situation of MAPs and the situation of e.g. having a hostile boss or spouse. For many people, it might be possible to leave a hostile spouse or boss, and I assume therefore a therapist might encourage a person in such a situation to leave it.
In comparison, MAPs are usually unable to leave the hostile society they live in. Some MAPs might perhaps be able to move to a less hostile country, and therapists might (if they are good therapists) help their MAP clients to decide if they want to leave the society they are living in. However, most MAPs are unable and/or unwilling to leave their society. In that case, I speculate (based on my limited knowledge on mental health) a therapist should ideally help a client to accept that they are in this unfortunate situation. Accepting that you are in an unfortunate situation can I assume be difficult because it often can feel like as if you are approving of the situation, i.e. as approving of one’s oppression. But those are two different things. Accepting one doesn’t have to mean accepting the other.
So a therapist might help a client to realize that they can accept that they are in a society that might only change very slowly, and which they cannot leave — while also pointing out that there can nevertheless be a lot of value and fulfillment in doing MAP activism.
Of course, a therapist who is a MAP themselves would likely be much better at this than a teleio therapist. Like, helping a MAP who understandably and desperately clings to the hope that society is going to change dramatically within the next few years to accept the possibility that it might not, and shifting their focus to what kind of activism they nevertheless do in present society.
MAPs who are in denial of living in a society where change likely happens slowly might in the worst case do sorts of activism that put themselves in danger due to their inability to accept that oppression might take a lot of time to get weaker. Of course, society is extremely complex so I assume quick radical change is always possible (and it’s good to be at least a bit prepared for that possibility), but still I feel like it’s nevertheless good to accept at least the chance that discrimination is going to stay similar to the way it is for a few more years.
I’m not sure if I’ve described this acceptance well, but I’d say when I accepted that society might not change quickly, this improved my mental health somewhat. It sort of stopped an obsession with looking for hopeful signs, which would usually lead to phases of disappointment sooner or later. So it helped me to focus more on what I can do in the present moment, which turned out to be more than I had thought back when I was so focused on the future due to being unable to accept that I’m living in the present where there is a lot of oppression.
Excellent comment. I would add, since society discriminates against anyone who appreciates the incredible sexuality of youth without debate, then you owe nothing to such a deranged society.
I was aroused by this.comment. A neat because A, therefore B. Can i ask you for a good example of what, were i not “a MAP” (highly ambivalent about use.of this term myself because of its incorporation of a blanket legal term). I might then “owe to society? This question promptly presented itself when i read your words..
But yes Finley the problems that Maps face weather it is about coming forward or any other personal issues each of us face, the truth is (and I have had to learn the hard way) is that self care is the only realistic solution, even if there was a counsellor that wanted to help us, truth be told there is very little they can do and the only person who can pull you out of your depression is yourself and for those who claim to have issues with harassment then (and again and I don’t mean to bring anyone down try to remember I am only saying this for your own good ppl) the best you can do is to just suck it up and try to get on with your life as best as you can because no one else will do it for you.
“even if there was a counsellor that wanted to help us, truth be told there is very little they can do and the only person who can pull you out of your depression is yourself”
There’s some literature that describes counsellors improving the mental health of MAPs. For example:
“Those who expressed favorable opinions of their therapists commonly said that their providers were nonjudgmental, trusting, or that they provided them with a safe atmosphere in which they could discuss social stigma about MAPs and their discomfort about their attractions. Josh’s therapist encouraged him to volunteer with children when he shared his fear of doing so, reassuring him that he could trust himself. The therapist also encouraged Josh to learn about other ‘celibate pedophiles who lived good lives.’ Similarly, Charlotte recalled the importance of her therapist’s nonjudgmental attitude when she discussed her attractions to her partner’s daughter. […] Josh, Charlotte, and Victor all felt that their mental health was improving significantly as a result of the therapeutic work in which they were engaged with their therapists.” https://academicworks.cuny.edu/gc_etds/2285/
I don’t know about any statistics on how common positive experiences with professional mental health services are among MAPs, though.
In any case, I haven’t looked into research comparing therapy with other ways to improve mental health, but as e.g. this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5jfzP1Q-do&ab_channel=HeidiPriebe ) explains, therapy might very often be ineffective even if a therapist is very good (so e.g. the therapist is a MAP themselves). Just like people in general, many MAPs might not know exactly why they seek the help of a therapist. Therapists might not always be able to find out the problem of the person (even therapists cannot necessarily read minds), so it might be the case that the person first needs to inform themselves about mental health, and e.g. reflect on their situation based on that knowledge before they’re ready for therapy, i.e. before they’re able to let the therapist know how the therapist can help them.
I have watched half of the youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5jfzP1Q-do&ab_channel=HeidiPriebe
and read the link https://academicworks.cuny.edu/gc_etds/2285/ and I haven’t been able to find anything on Josh, Charlotte Victor’s experience (but positive experiences from Therapist that Maps have I can only take with a pinch of salt anyway) re Map Therapist, I have never come across any and can’t imagine them coming out about it due to it being career suicide. If you can show me a link re Maps who claim to get the right support then I would be glad to read it.
“I haven’t been able to find anything on Josh, Charlotte Victor’s experience”
When you click on download, a pdf opens where you can find the quote on p 136.
Another example is described in the following quote:
“Richard Kramer, the educational director at B4U-ACT, an online community for pedophiles, said he figured out he was attracted to pubescent boys in his 20s. […] When Kramer was ready to look for a therapist again, he didn’t really care what kind of approach they used, but was more concerned about whether they understood enough about pedophiles to not treat him like a criminal. His goals didn’t involve a struggle to control his impulses, but to manage the shame and sense of isolation from others because he couldn’t be honest.” https://www.vice.com/en/article/pedophilia-is-a-mental-health-issue-its-still-not-treated-as-one/
Freimond also briefly mentions that one of her interview partners said he benefited from therapy.
While there is some literature on positive experiences with therapists, I assume it’s often much more insightful to talk with MAPs who have had positive experiences themselves. They can be difficult to find, though. Which I assume is because the majority of experiences with therapists might be negative, though that’s just my speculation. B4U-ACT’s peer support forum might be a good place to ask since B4U-ACT maintains a list of vetted therapists who have agreed to ethical standards B4U-ACT requires them to have to get on the list IIRC. MAP clients are also asked to give feedback on those therapists to B4U-ACT I believe.
I know some MAPs who had positive therapy experiences, but to be honest I haven’t really talked that much with them about that. I guess I probably should.
I believe one of them mentioned that cognitive behavioral therapy was the method their therapist used. To my knowledge CBT involves becoming aware of cognitive distortions and reducing them. Cognitive distortion might e.g. be beliefs like other people being able to somehow detect you’re a MAP just by looking at you or otherwise finding out easily, which is a belief that can lead to social anxiety.
Another MAP I know talked a bit about how he loved giving his therapist MAP activist texts to read, and also texts he had written himself, and that his therapist was also completely okay with putting some brochures about being a MAP next to the other brochures in the waiting room.
“re Map Therapist, I have never come across any and can’t imagine them coming out about it due to it being career suicide.”
I myself can only think of a single current example of a therapist who seems to be a MAP openly, or at least seems to have no problem being probably confused with one by antis if he isn’t: https://www.heilzentrum-oststadt.de/situation-p%C3%A4dophiler/
As far as I can see, this psychotherapist regularly participates in German-speaking MAP forums. Some anti-c MAPs there appear to have had conflicts with him due to them feeling he is too pro-c, though I haven’t really looked into why they seem to be in conflict. He also seems to sometimes offer meetings to drink coffee, and without any concrete plans beyond that.
Wolfgang Wedler, the therapist featured in Finlay’s second link above, appears to take a far more positive approach to counselling MAPs (or more specifically paedophiles), than any other individual or counselling organisation I have seen in recent years.
He is in Germany, so his services are unlikely to be accessible to most HTOC readers. But his website is well worth inspecting, just to see a demonstration of how a good attitude can be brought to the task.
Made a page for https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/Paedophilia:_The_Radical_Case
Showcases the very rare, seemingly impossible to find online, cover for the 1st edition published in the UK. As I wrote, the pre-publication endorsements for the British edition of the book notably include early British gay academic and pioneer of sociology Dr. Ken Plummer, The Director of Education for The National Institute of Social Work Peter Righton, famous campaigner for homosexual rights Michael Schofield, and Principal Lecturer of Social Work John Hart.
You can find the publisher’s book description and the pre-publication comments, on the page’s gallery section. Schofield said:
Great stuff, Prue! Cool! 🙂
Tom…
The child kissing question.
Within the last two or three weeks, I was driving in my vehicle listening to news or an interview. Something came up dealing with human/animal affection…maybe in apes, I don’t remember.
I remember having the exact same question scurry through my mind…”How common is it for humans to kiss their children?”
I forgot to follow up on this and like you, I find myself resorting to a ChatGTP bot more commonly. But I didn’t this time.
I come here, and find you’ve explored this exact question.
Sometimes life is just to trippy.
Maybe we listened to the same news/interview?
Good to hear from you Steve!
>Maybe we listened to the same news/interview?
Could have been a repeat, I guess, but unlikely because it was a BBC mainly news broadcast, possibly in April. Still, I guess the most interesting questions keep popping up over and over in different times and places.
Well, who knows?
Just for information, we actually do get a ton of BBC broadcasting over here in the states, most especially from universities with their own radio broadcasting stations. It’s common for them to switch over to BBC world news, between when their daily broadcast ends and picks back up several hours later.
I was born a night owl.
…And it’s nice to be back around these parts. 🙂
>we actually do get a ton of BBC broadcasting over here in the states
Really? I had no idea. Fascinating. I’m sure Mr Pup, a big BBC fan and veteran poster here, will be thrilled to hear it.
Mentally stop defensive decades of self-harm victim MAPs.
Start attacking offensive centuries ongoing perverse Anglos in plain-sight with so many open-goals waiting to be SCORED by HOT-Shot ‘Messi’ MAPs!!
E.G. Current, perverse neo-Victorian ‘modern’ UK. ‘Children’ criminally charged for ‘consenting’ to commit violent pain – still can’t ‘consent’ to sexual pleasure – WTF?
A 13-year-old girl has become the latest youngster to be convicted for her part in the widespread riots as almost a thousand people have been arrested. She is one of at least 50 youths under the age of 18 who have been charged in connection with the riots.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/13yearold-girl-convicted-riots-thousand-people-arrested-southport-aldershot-b1176332.html
A 12-year-old boy who attended two different riots was “more involved in the violence and disorder than any other defendant I’ve seen coming through these courts, adult or child”, a judge has said. The boy, and another of the same age who was convicted over a different riot, are the youngest people to be charged after disorder across the country.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/12/uk-riots-starmer-court-sentencing-southport/
I think that those who know best the big lie of anti-paedophile hysteria are psychologists, judges, policemen, legislators. They see every day with their own eyes and better than anyone else that the mass media story is false. They have to see that there are minors who willingly have sex and enjoy it without being traumatized. They must necessarily see with their own eyes that it is grossly unfair to treat MAPs the way they are treated. Moreover, there are thousands of people affected by this massacre, either directly or because their relatives, friends or neighbours are MAPs, and they necessarily have to realise that they are not the monsters the story says they are. So I wonder how the official false narrative and the whole repressive machinery can stand up.
Or maybe I am too optimistic about the intelligence of people and institutions and their ability to see reality and distinguish right from wrong.
>So I wonder how the official false narrative and the whole repressive machinery can stand up.
Long standing in gullible lands of Anglo lies. Modern mass media mindless mob-rule cowardly scapegoating (much exploited by the Anglo UK trash tabloid SUN), originated in the scapegoat ritual of atonement described in the Ancient Bible (first fake mass-media) Book of Leviticus. In which an innocent goat is cast into the wilderness unfairly bearing all the sins of the hypocritical community, perversely placed on the goat’s head by a sadistic priest (ancient ‘press baron’) for Power & Control, unquestioningly respected by the kept ignorant gullible masses.
In 1885 gullible Anglo UK following sensationalist distorted articles for profit, Power & Control deviously masked as ‘Child Protection’, by the London Pall Mall Gazette (TheFirstSun) editor William Stead the UK Parliament panicked into passing the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 raising the UK Age of Consent from thirteen to sixteen. In the Anglo USA as late as the 1880s most states set the minimum age at a reasonable ten to twelve, in U.S. Delaware, MAP Joe Biden’s State, it was a rational seven as late as 1895.
Yet in grotesquely hypocritical modern ‘Sense Offenders’ Anglo UK & Canada 2024 thus far, four ‘children’ ages 12 & 13 have been criminally charged as adults for having the ability to ‘consent’ to commit painful violence – but not sexual pleasure?
We know it make nonsense, not Nonce Sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Maiden_Tribute_of_Modern_Babylon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/uk-riots-boy-12-charged-violent-disorder-southport-stabbings-b1176051.html
https://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-news/two-boys-ages-12-and-13-charged-with-manslaughter-of-12-year-old-boy-saskatoon-police
Indeed, we are the scapegoat. That’s why they are not interested in knowing the truth or, if they do know the truth, they don’t care if they continue to act unjustly. What does it matter if the paedophiles are really these monsters or not? What does it matter if they suffer unjustly or not? The only thing that matters to them, consciously or unconsciously, is to continue to have the scapegoat.
MAPS have always been the scapegoat, when governmental affairs are put in scrutiny. We have more children surviving in poverty, lacking proper role models, getting into gangs, drugs and vice even as in pre-teens. But lord forbid farming them out to anything controversial, such as a vetted BL as a nurturing person as a paradigm.
There are BLs who would do a better job of raising young minds, than a lot of parents. I think the amount of kids being murdered in 2023 alone by fathers, is enough to place the question if society is truly doing right.
Strong points, Zee, especially your final paragraph.
how is biden a map when hes imprisoned so many for life?
>how is biden a map when hes imprisoned so many for life?
Vids thru the years show MAP Joe ‘close’ touching HOT Lolis and as a politician, not Judge, Joe hasn’t jailed anyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4PLSPvJ9BY
> Joe hasn’t jailed anyone.
As you say, Pup, he isn’t a judge, but Matt may be thinking of Biden’s role in bringing about mass incarceration through his role in introducing the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. As I pointed out in a 2020 blog, he was Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee at the time, spearheading the bill into law. The new law brought in the harsh three-strikes-and-you’re-out rule, which resulted in a massive upsurge in people being jailed for life over mainly minor and often poverty-related offences.
>Matt may be thinking of Biden’s role in bringing about mass incarceration through his role in introducing the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.
Thinking of the whole half-century ongoing post-Love Generation hate-filled US/UK Totalitarian Tabloid Anglophone ‘War on Love’ generating hate Worldwide, for profit Power & Control. Misled by MurDark, NixoNazi, Snatcher, RayGun, Bush-1, Clincher, BLiar, Bush-2, O’Barmy, KidStarver. The whole Olde Left (including P.C. political closet MAPs) became the New Right WRONG-uns.
Not one Anglo Lefty since SeXy ’70s Olde Lab Roy Jenkins has DARED say or think anything positive about MAPs. Even so called ‘edgy alt’ comedians now cower in the face of the Anglo sacred new Useful-Victims fake Industry for profit Power & Control.
Maybe the last two Anglo Olde School comics were in the 19Haties when young, on ‘Live’ TV made major humor from minor sex?
1: UK, ‘Live’ TV northern working-class Roy ‘Chubby’ Brown during the 19Haties Satanic Abuse fake panics, “Eee, thar’s a goodly crowd in here tonight. I thought you’d all be home fuckin’ yer kids!?”
2: US & UK 19Haties ‘Live’ TV, ‘paraprosdokian’ Emo Philips, “One day in school the botany mistress asked a trick question and only I knew the answer. ‘What is a ‘propogator?’ ‘Please Miss, it’s someone with an unusual liking for little girls.’ ‘NO! Philips you fool. Go to the headmaster for punishment.’ As I approached the Head’s study a boy emerged holding his bottom, and I thought, ‘Oh God! I hope the Head doesn’t find me attractive’…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Chubby_Brown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_Philips
Once more with pleasure, over to over-pained MOD-DELETE?
Sorry Tom i posted my reply before reading your reply! You seem to know the deal.
No problem, Matt. Thanks for your post.
From what i know Joe was a big factor in the
three strikespolicy that meant if you commit three felonies you never coming out, which would include 3 photos of 17 year old, no matter how mild. im not completely sure, i could do more research, but ill inevitably get angry…[T. O’C. ADDS LATER: As Matt acknowledges elsewhere, I have already posted on this. Never mind, no harm in reinforcing the point.]
>no harm in reinforcing the point…
Even later lousier quotes at London’s leading book stores Borders and Waterstones during Monica’s well attended book-signings FLASH-snapped by the all MurDarki$ed serially offensive paparazzi parasites, repeat offending their earlier repetitive abuses of late great Di-the-death-by-tabloid, “Monica, please sit on the desk front with legs high-crossed like you did for President Clinton. No???? Bitch! Whore! Tart! Slag!!!!”
My mental health is still very poor. I have long understood and assumed that there is no help possible. We are the same as a Jew or a homosexual in Nazi Germany, or a witch before the Inquisition, and society is not willing to change. We have to come to terms with it and live as well as possible, as far as possible.
Only two things could help me to live a little better. A young friend or a friend like me with whom I could talk on equal terms. The first is “impossible”, the second very difficult. I don’t know anyone like me, I live in complete isolation, I never talk about this subject with anyone and that distresses me a lot. I don’t know how I don’t go crazy. I suppose there are many like me.
First stop, get in touch with B4U-ACT, a charity run by MAPs who vet therapists and mental health professionals, as well as publishing a quarterly research journal summarizing and criticizing cutting edge scholarship on MAPs, calling researcher’s out if they use stigmatizing language.
At least that way you can speak to another MAP who will be educated on these topics and sympathetic. I can’t promise lasting friendship out of it, but it’d be a good start if you find it really distressing to have no one to speak with about such topics.
https://www.b4uact.org/
The science director, and main guy who keeps up correspondence with MAPs and academics, is an MAP called Allen Bishop. He’s a really nice guy. You can email him at: abishop@b4uact.org
My mental health is in a dire state. It was bad before the event of early 2005 when they stopped under 18s from showing their boobs. From then on ive discovered so many horrific laws , especially from the
land of the freeand the hatred for people even liking legal to have sex with teens. And the repression of young people. And the vigilantes. Wow people are evil. Not sure why i havent given up hope. Also apparently too old for early 20s. The mental health of us is not important they clearly want us all to die. The rainbow people get all this protection we get nothing. In the future people will look back at now and be horrified..Everything is set up to make our lives impossible, to make us live depressed, isolated, without contact with each other, alone, without friends, absolutely marginalised and doomed to suicide. Indeed, they want us to die.
It is not true that we live in the free, civilised and advanced world they want to sell us. If we did, this would not be the case.
The years go by, the decades go by, and I see no progress, no light, no matter how small, that tells us that things are going to start to change. On the contrary, everything is getting worse every day.
I don’t know why I don’t lose hope either. But I know that we are right and they are wrong, and that keeps me going.
thank you for your input.. sorry, a bit depressing. positives are available, somewhere?
your english is very good. no problem, friend. thank you. but, what country you in?
I am a man. I wrote “Emily” in my nickname by mistake. I meant to put Emile.
Emile, your first two comments demonstrate very clearly the poor quality of mental health care provision available to MAPs, whether from the public or private sector.
Unfortunately, though, some of the clarity is lost through what appears to have been hasty writing. In the context of sexual attraction a message from “Emily”, for instance, it likely to give a very different impression to one from “Emile”.
Also, the psychiatrist is referred to first as “she”, then as “he/him” a number of times and then finally as “she” again. You will be understood much better if you slow down a bit and take the time to check what you have written before posting.
One other point might have confused some readers, although this was not a mistake on your part. You wrote:
To me this reads a bit strangely because the social security people have never had their own psychiatrists as far as I am aware, not even in the old days when we had the DHSS (Department of Health and Social Security). I presume you mean you went to somewhere like the present DWP (Department for Work and Pensions), which deals with social security benefits payments, and they referred you to a psychiatrist, who would have been with the NHS.
Thank you for the corrections. English is not my language and I have written it with an automatic translator.
Yes, what happened to me proves what you say.
>English is not my language and I have written it with an automatic translator.
I did not guess this, which tells me that automatic translation must be getting quite good! 🙂 Anyway, thank you, Emile, for your interesting contributions.
Thanks to you for this interesting and necessary site. In the current situation, Heretic TOC helps me not to fall into despair.
Thanks for your appreciation, Emile. Good to hear you feel there is some value to what HTOC does.
Not just the site. When I feel bad and desperate because of our situation in today’s society and my personal situation, I think of you and all the work you have done since the 1970s (books, articles, TV interviews, sites like this one), with your real name and in the open, and that gives me strength to go on. You are a kind of Jesus Christ of the MAPs, if I may say so. It is hard to believe that there could be someone as brave and persevering as you, but you are still there, and hopefully for many years to come.
I don’t know if all this is of any use, I just know that it is necessary and someone has to do it.
Thanks, Emile, but steady on there, man, take it easy. I’m not the messiah, I’m just a very naughty boy! 🙂 And for anyone not familiar with that reference to a classic film, do check out Monty Python’s Life of Brian.
ah Graham Chapman, from my point of view he wasn’t naughty his mother was along with the ignorant people who left him on the cross to die
I may be wrong about this but isn’t it true that the treatment of Maps is also happening at the expense of the tax payer (eg many Maps have have got mental health problems due to society attitude towards them and as a result they are forced to live on mental health benefits) and if Maps were to be treated better by society then more people would be in work and then taxes would go down so if we look at it that way then maybe one day things will have to change?
[Continued from my previous post].
Years later, as my distress and suicidal tendencies were not getting better, but worse, I decided to try my luck with a private psychologist. Her reaction was identical to the psychiatrist’s, if not worse. She also opened the door and asked me to leave and not to come back.
That’s the way things are.
I saw a therapist he said he would break my legs…..
Seek therapy through B4U-ACT since they are vetted by MAPs. Otherwise, avoid.
That therapist should be struck off btw. Fuck him.
It is rare for a ‘therapist’ to not be a mandatory reporter. Or governed by these sorts of rules & regulations. It is reckless to recommend any therapist at all, B4uAct or otherwise, sorry Prue. All you need is one therapist who has links to a vigilante group, and they are easy enough to contact, and your life will change for the worse, v quickly.
Avoid all therapy. You don’t need it.
Unless you want trouble.
As for any of these MAP ‘organisations’, B4uAct et al, tread v v carefully indeed. If trust isn’t a big issue for you as a MAP, it should be.
Good advice. Best to avoid therapists. I went to them because I was desperate and on the verge of suicide, and they left me worse off. They also told me I should be grateful they didn’t report me. Report what? I hadn’t committed any crime, I just told them I was attracted to teenagers (not even children, and when I was still almost a teenager myself), and there’s nothing illegal about being attracted to something you didn’t choose to be. Their reaction shows how misinformed they are and how distorted their perception of reality is. They are sick and they should be denounced for treating people like this.
On the other hand, if someone is suffering because of society’s intolerance and ignorance of paedophilia, getting “therapy” is not going to do them any good, as the cause of their suffering is not going to go away.
And let’s not forget that one of the main causes of our living like witches in the Middle Ages are precisely psychologists and psychiatrists, who continue to maintain paedophilia as a disease in the DSM. It is not a good idea to ask the enemy for water.
I can only speak from experience here but I have found that they won’t necessarily report you to the police (as long as you have not committed a crime) but they will keep what you have told them on record and if in anyway you tell them how you truthfully feel ie that the attraction is ok as long as it is consensual, then again in my experience they will not listen to a word you say and will completely shut the conversation down which is what a counsellor did with me and the expression on her face was “well lets just say that it looked as if she wanted to rip my head off” even though I didn’t do anything wrong, and because of that and other negative experiences I have had with another counsellor in Stop It Now I realise that they are a waste of time.
struck? by lightning? sounds great. was 15 years ago, and funnily enough, my views havent really changed.
Twenty years ago, when I was still young and living in absolute hell, constantly thinking about suicide because of the suffering I was experiencing at not being able to develop my sexuality in an intolerant and stubborn society, I decided, driven by despair, to seek “psychological help”, and went to a psychiatrist at the Social Security. I hoped that, if I explained well what I was feeling and what was happening to me, she might help me somehow to cope with my pain. I didn’t want more. All I told him was that I was attracted to teenage boys (when I was still almost a teenager myself), that I had always been like that even though I had never had any relationship with a minor, and that I felt very distressed and wanted to commit suicide because of society’s misunderstanding. He pretended to understand me at first, and after a few sessions he suddenly started to talk to me very badly, in an aggressive tone and with a lot of hate and contempt, he told me that what I was feeling was not normal, that it was not right, that it was something abominable. I told him that in Classical Greece it was seen as something normal and that I didn’t understand why society finds it so difficult to understand our sexual tendency, since it is comparable to gay homosexuality. He replied “Because gays don’t hurt anyone”. I replied “And neither do I”. Then she got up angrily, opened the door of the consulting room and told me to leave and not to come back.
[…] https://heretictoc.com/2024/08/05/a-young-map-discovers-practical-self-care […]
Not only the practice of kissing, but also the form of kissing varies across cultures. In France and Belgium, kissing on the mouth is only for lovers and spouses, one kisses friends and relatives on the cheek. It is different in Russia, one remembers the photograph of Brejnev kissing Honecker on the mouth. About thirty years ago, I visited a colleague in the Netherlands; when going to bed, his daughters gave him a small kiss on the mouth, which made me uneasy.
>Not only the practice of kissing, but also the form of kissing varies across cultures. In France and Belgium, kissing on the mouth is only for lovers and spouses, one kisses friends and relatives on the cheek. It is different in Russia, one remembers the photograph of Brejnev kissing Honecker on the mouth. About thirty years ago, I visited a colleague in the Netherlands; when going to bed, his daughters gave him a small kiss on the mouth, which made me uneasy.
Easy now cultural Christian. Pre-Christ cultures had depictions of mouth to mouth kissing often including man-boy kissing. And, 20th Century ongoing Worldwide mass media mercilessly exploits mouth to mouth kissing in Hollyweird-Bollywood HOT scenes. HOT Lolis’ Romance comix, comic seaside postcards, Valentine’s Day cards, HYPOCRITE ‘Family’ media tabloid trash & TV soaps, and sexy artworks on olde biddies’ ‘Bodice Ripper’ novels by Babs Fart er Cartland etc, plus Mommy/Daddy mouth-kissing kids goodnight or goodbye for School or Summer Hols.
Such universally popular, all legal, imagery is so powerful that ‘Love Magnet’ Bold MAP’s HOT Lolis from Age 4 might easily confide about kissing and more, or not. E.G. “It’s OK to kiss if you’re in love, isn’t it?” “I’ve waited all week to see you, I LUV your strong muscular hands in best white knickers – I LUV it! But I don’t like sloppy kisses.” “You and my best friend just had a BIG Kiss, is it MY turn now?!” “I don’t like those rough boys but I’ll give YOU a Kiss & Cuddle!” Plus, SeXclusive for Tom & Co Shota MAPs, 14yo Gay HOT Laddie/GAAM proactively deep french-kissing ‘Victim’ Bold MAP, “I don’t care how old you are – you’re LUVLY!”
Easy now HHP…
Same thing for the gay/bi community. If I received a pound for every gay/bi I’ve met who stigmatized other people about their sexuality, I’d be richer than Edwards
Gays have assimilated and have become the same sexophobes from whom they once asked for acceptance. In doing so, they betray not only MAPs, but also minor gays, distancing themselves from them and denying them the opportunity to express their sexuality until they reach 18.
i got banned from a bar for saying the flag was non inclusive. !!!! but, they dont include people like,leo decaprio, who likes girls 25 years younger. maps? oh, we dont want part of bigoted movements, thank you.
“banned from a bar for saying the flag was non inclusive”
>Probably don’t say that then, unless you’re wanting to start an argument. No one needs to say everything that’s on their mind. In fact, it’s usually best to not…
Leo DeCaprio is not a MAP. He’s a rich Teiliophile and manages to survive because of a generational and historical legacy after years of starring in popular films, all the while facing massive public criticism for his age gap relationships.
People lash out when other’s have what they want. Crab mentality. Luckily, for the jealous and hateful there’s a readily available P discourse they can latch on to to hide / sublimate their real feelings.
From my youth I thought I was “gay”, even though I have never felt attracted to men in the slightest. The truth is that I never liked gays, never felt at ease with them and always viewed them with disgust, but in my youth I assumed that I “should” relate to them because I was gay myself. Today, however, I see things very differently. I no longer consider myself “gay”, I can’t stand the company of gays (even their very presence sometimes makes me uncomfortable), I have reduced my contact with gays to almost zero (and now I feel much better) and of course I don’t identify with or support at all the intolerant and hypocritical lgbt movement, complicit in the massacre against the MAPs. If I already felt some homophobia before, having seen so many gay/bi people stigmatising and discriminating against MAPs (even though many of them like minors), made them unbearable to me.
I have come to the conclusion that attraction to boys is a sexual orientation in itself and completely different from what is today understood as “homosexuality”, or what gays represent. I, at least, do not feel that I have anything in common with gays, in fact I feel closer to heterosexuals. Nor do I see that the object of desire of one or the other has anything to do with the other: a pubescent or prepubescent boy is absolutely different from a full-fledged man. So I would prefer that our path and our struggle had nothing to do with gays.
Interesting you say you viewed other gays “with disgust,” and have come to “feel closer to heterosexuals.”
At a guess, you’re attracted to the more feminine aspect of boys? What’s called, in relation to legal porn, “Femboys”? You didn’t feel similar to the gays because they all liked muscular men, or “bears”? As you say, “a pubescent or prepubescent boy is absolutely different from a full-fledged man.”
I don’t like “femboys”.
I don’t identify with gays for a multitude of reasons. One of them is that they like muscular or “bearish” men, yes, but that’s not the only reason, I could cite many more. I don’t know if what I feel is what they call “internalised homophobia” or if I really have nothing to do with homosexuals. I often wonder how many MAPs feel the same way as I do.
“I often wonder how many MAPs feel the same way as I do.”
> Probably a lot.
You are absolutely not alone; not only am I and many others I know with you, but you’re describing a pattern across cultures and history. (You’ll come across souls at boychat.org who know it and talk about it far more than you will here, or anywhere else, by the way). Abandon your fear of “internalized homophobia:” you and I have got what the Greeks got, which is a recognition of boys as a distinct kind of being, something possessed of the softness and vulnerability of the female but utterly intent on breaking out of that softness and vulnerability and turning into a man. Your exclusivity (our exclusivity) is no mere personal predilection: we are onto something serious (in a manner uncorrupted by “queerness” or “gayness”), namely the way boys are really beautiful things on their way to becoming real men. Real men! Not “femme” in any way (though the “femboy” might need help of his own kind, and I don’t begrudge the boy lover who seeks such boys out too). As lovers we love them as boys, and let go of them as they grow into manhood.
It is the likes of us, not the gays, who carve out the essential shape of the virtue of homosexuality; it is the likes of us, not the MAP apologists, who carve out a functional, useful, wonderful shape of erotic and romantic attraction for the territories of male pubescence.
Your observation, to me, strikes a motherlode, one that’s been struck before but needs to be hammered at. We’ve got nothing to do with “gay.” Gay is an enemy; not the only one, but a big one.
p.s. Imagine Socrates at a gay pride parade…
I can confirm that kissing of kids in Japan is quite rare. Kissing between married adult couples, too. Kissing is typically reserved for dating couples.
>Kissing is typically reserved for dating couples.
Fascinating! Is it because the desire to kiss each other vanishes when they marry? If so, it would hardly appear to endorse the concept of “marital bliss”, would it? Sounds more like couples who hate each other and want to divorce from day one!
In traditional terms, admittedly, couples only get their official Fuck Licence when they are ceremonially and legally hitched, so kissing could suddenly seem too tame once they can really let rip in bed. But who waits for the honeymoon to start the hot stuff these days? Marriage shouldn’t really make any difference to the desirability of kissing.
So is there a sort of taboo on married couples kissing? If so, is it perhaps a taboo only on kissing in public, which could be considered bad manners?
But why no kissing of children? In Japanese thinking, does it seem uncomfortably close to the intense sexual passion dating couples feel for each other? So how is affection towards kids expressed? ChatGPT was rather vague on this.
In plain-sight, in prime need of most MENTAL HELP.
The post-Reformation (of convenience not conviction) 4-centuries ongoing on five continents, perverse, psychopathic, psychotic 5-eyes phoney Anglophone UK/US/CA/OZ/NZ.
History’s proven biggest liars, denyers, self-justifyers, cowards, thugs, thieves, mass-murderers, erotophobes, bar-none; making all others look like amateurs. Humanity’s all time worst, perversely posing as ‘World Best’ – WTF?
Fit only to be shunned and shamed on a WORLD SENSE-OFFENDERS REGISTER with ‘appropriate’ tag, “NO SENSE Please We’re Ang£o $hits.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Sex_Please,_We%27re_British
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Sex_Please,_We%27re_British_(film)
Excellent guest blog, thank you both! I can see the point of warbling j turpitude’s criticism, but on the other hand it is well worth thinking about how to look after ourselves. I thought the most useful suggestion might have been the one about maintaining hobbies or creative interests.
The remarks about Huw Edwards are on point, but maybe a little harsh when it comes to his erstwhile teenage friend. It was his mother and stepfather who went to the Sun. He himself made statements through his lawyer (being able to afford one!) saying that he was estranged from his mother, the allegations were “rubbish”, and nothing “inappropriate or illegal” had taken place.
However, since Edwards’s conviction, he has gone back on that, given an interview presumably for money (to the Mirror, though, not the Sun), and said he was “groomed” after all. So maybe not such a shit, but a bit of a sheep, with his recent falling in line.
>maybe a little harsh when it comes to his erstwhile teenage friend
Yes, you could be right OldFogeyNose. That apart, glad you liked the guest blog and the rest of the Huw Edwards coverage.
Based! I wonder if that cost him a lot of money and, if he wasn’t offered a settlement, would he have had to pay substantial sums for bringing the charges? It sounds a great success, either way 🙂
This is the advantage of being open, future MAP activists who may be reading this. If Gieseking was trying to remain anonymous, he’d be far less likely to engage in a criminal lawsuit to defend himself, bc he’d want to avoid his identity being dragged into the limelight.
I’m not saying you should be ‘out’ and I’m not saying it’ll be a nice or easy life, especially with the viciousness of social media now that MAPs have been systemically kept from expressing themselves lawfully on social media sites like Twitter, since identifying as an MAP is against Terms of Service (TOS) and will get you banned. (It does matter who owns what and who holds power, so if you want to start a media production company and hire advocates to produce backlash media like the right-wing are so good at, that’d be the single most influential thing you could do short of coming out to trusted friends and family).
I am saying that the MAP Movement will need to be led by MAPs, and that once you’re out of the closet in a big way, there’s both pros and cons as in anything. More than likely, many people end up forced out of the closet or tarred w/ the brush of stigma, so they make the best of a sticky situation. Keep it chill, grounded, real, do your best and good luck, whatever the case may be.
The funny part is literally every single human being sometimes has sexual feelings towards people under magic 18. So, conservative reactionaries like Twitter/Musk, religious cult lunatics, and jealous feminists are simply profiteering hypocrites. That’s why the loudest members of the right and left are constantly caught with their pants down in sex scandals. It’s all a sick circus for the rest of the hypocrites in society who want some of that power to be tyrants themselves.
Knowing this, it is impossible to be “depressed”, or seek the help of a “therapist”. F*ck hypocrite society. F*ck them until the end. Enjoy it.
Exactly like these fine ladies written about here:
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
(BTW, does anyone knows what happened to Lensman/Leonard Sysiphus Mann? I still don’t understand why he suddenly deleted all his online presence years ago. And I miss reading him. 🙂
>BTW, does anyone knows what happened to Lensman
Sadly, he recanted his pro-choice (for children not pregnant women) view of child-adult sexual relations. He also became extremely Islamophobic, I would say. I am no fan of Islam myself, or of any religion, but I felt he lost all sense of proportion, as though he believed every Muslim is much the same as an Isis or Al-Qaeda terrorist.
That said, I greatly enjoyed Michel Houellebecq’s novel Submission, published in 2015, which I think I might have read on LSM’s recommendation. As Wikipedia puts it, “The novel imagines a situation in which a Muslim party upholding Islamist and patriarchal values is able to win the 2022 presidential election in France with the support of the Socialist Party.” The New York Times said it “plays on French fears of terrorism, immigration and changing demographics.” As such, it was widely dismissed as Islamophobic.
You wouldn’t guess it from this description but Submission is actually very humorous. It’s satirical rather than horrific, a tone the author is able to strike because the imagined Muslim victory is not achieved through terrorism but by Islam making itself rather seductively appealing, at least to men of a certain sort.
LSM’s view, by contrast, struck me as far more darkly sinister. The evidence he used to support his position was extensive, but in my view very weak, with too much read into it. Most unfortunate, IMO. His best (earlier) work was excellent.
To Finlay: nice blog! Well done, and yes, you are loved! You came out to a friend and they were understanding: great! That’s one of the most important steps in creating social change for sexual minorities. Not only does it mean you can be open with at least 1 other person, it means that another person has now met a decent, law-abiding MAP. It doesn’t guarantee it, but that in-person connection makes it far more likely that they’ll be able to reflexively challenge or discount negative discourse about all MAPs as cruel, ruthless child-rapists in the future. Just by existing with a small level of (sensible) openness, you can create cognitive dissonance in another person.
Interesting that you said that reading obscure activist writings made you more depressed? Why do you think it made you feel that way?
I think having a supportive, positive environment, good, ride-or-die in-person friendships and family connections, a reasonable income / amount of money and something to give you a sense of meaning in the world, will do far more than therapy ever could. Unless, of course, it’s therapy that helps you orient yourself and attain those things…
I also think that creativity is really important for most people, which helps explain the popularity of social media. People need meaning, validation, connection.
Good on you for drawing! Who doesn’t like an artist!? If nothing else, you’ve got something (in fact I suspect many things) interesting about you :p You give a lot of really good advice. Lots that even the Teilios like myself can learn from. I definitely understand feeling “overwhelmed”…
I hope you’re either in or working on a career / getting a good income from something you either can do with great ease, enjoy / think you’ll enjoy, get a strong sense of meaning from, or preferably some combination of all three. I know that’s not easy, and the younger you are and poorer background you’re from, the harder that can be. But, having a sense of stability, security, and social mobility will do wonders for your mental health, I’d think.
Live a life you can look back on with pride…
Glad to hear you like my blog!
The thought of not needing to read a lot of academic texts for better mental health didn’t really occur to me for a long time. There are a lot of different factors in this regard I feel like that might also commonly affect other MAPs and discriminated groups more broadly. For example, discrimination causes testimonial injustice ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_injustice ) which can mean those affected by it are often seen as irrational. I speculate many MAPs may consciously be aware that the prejudice of MAPs as irrational is wrong. Still, simply knowing a prejudice is wrong doesn’t necessarily mean you have rejected it on an unconscious level as well. Even if you have, then you might still fear you’re irrational for reasons that are indirectly related to discrimination. You might e.g. love being a MAP, but still feel low self-esteem in regards to many other aspects of your life due to current or past effects of discrimination.
All of this then might cause a person to obsess over reading academic texts as a coping mechanism for their low self-esteem. However, no matter how much you read there likely won’t ever be a point where this causes you to stop feel irrational. There’s always yet another book you feel you should read to be one step ahead of the antis. In many cases, you might not consciously feel irrational, but you might, for example, instead tell yourself that you just want to be prepared to debate antis to show your fellow MAPs how irrational they are. I don’t think wanting to debate antis or being interested in academic texts is a sign of bad mental health, but if a person notices that they feel exhausted doing this then this could be a good sign to reflect on if spending a bit more time on other things instead could be good for their mental health.
It might seem surprising for some people why me and presumably many other MAPs would choose to read a lot of obscure academic/activist texts on pedo/queer topics rather than simply type into Google “Ways to improve mental health yourself”, but this is where the hopelessness cited in my blog is probably a big factor, i.e. consciously or unconsciously believing that resources by and for teleios will never work for you.
In my own case, I saw a lot of MAPs with much better mental health than me, and was frustrated why I couldn’t figure out what their secret to good mental health was. I couldn’t really find an explanation other than that they perhaps unknowingly found a super effective way to deal with discrimination somewhere in a book. Like, an insight that maybe didn’t seem significant to them, and that they therefore didn’t tell to other MAPs, but that actually was the reason for their good mental health. Either that or they perhaps weren’t really MAPs or didn’t feel attractions as strongly as I did, and therefore were suffering less.
About a year ago I found out, due to a number of lucky circumstances, that I probably have ADHD (aka VAST, an uncommon but less pathologizing term). One of those lucky things was that I found an ADHD meme on social media that made me aware of the topic. When you have ADHD but don’t know you have it this can reduce life expectancy by up to 13 years https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-life-expectancy-video/ , so it was a very significant thing for me to find out, and has improved my mental health a lot. I attributed a lot of ADHD symptoms like emotional dysregulation or being unorganized to bad mental health caused by MAP discrimination. Now I see a lot of my past problems as being much better explainable as being due to ADHD symptoms and ableism.
A few years after I came out as homosexual, I became obsessed about the studies and books on the biological studies of homosexuality, like the gay gene thing and stuff like that. I read a lot. I remember staying at the university library until late as an undergraduate. I think it was like a quest for rationality amid the irrational lack of empathy of the pervasive homophobia that was around me.
I later realized that it actually was, in the end, a search for self-justification in the face of the public opinion. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a study that proves what you have in mind? Wouldn’t that just shut definitely up all those intolerant people who still think that the sexual orientation is something that we choose?
I think that the obsession for the studies is a necessary and healthy phase, and it is always good to read books/papers to know stuff. But I don’t think that the studies will give us the answers we desperately need. Don’t take me wrong. Studies can shed light in our knowledge. It’s just that I wouldn’t waste my time trying to use them to defend our dignity. Also, take the studies with a pinch of salt. There is a lot of fraud already in non-political things. Look up “Francesca Gino” in Youtube…
After all, do we really have to always resort to science to prove every single thing that the intolerants refuse to admit? For instance, just imagine that a new prejudice emerges about inter-ratial couples. Imagine that they become socially rejected and illegalized like pedophilia. Do we have to start over again, and invest lots of time and money in studies to attempt to “prove” that there is nothing wrong with inter-rational couples? That’s exhausting, folks.
I don’t care if being gay (or being MAP, for the example it’s the same) is something that we choose or we are born with. You’ll HAVE TO accept me either way because I am free, and when two (or more) people want to do intimate things together, they have the right to do so without having fingers pointing at them. That’s it.
“Sound plausible.” – Should be “Sounds plausible.” Missing the s.
On Huw Edwards: if the media, charities, NGO’s and academics went 70’s style and kept their discussions of ‘children’ to people aged 13 and under, they’d have a much stronger case all-round. The available evidence from news media all suggests that Huw’s stated interest was in Twinks, young guys. He paid an extraordinary amount to receive photos of a young male who must have been over 18, or we would all be hearing about their ‘innocent’, ‘child’ status as an exploited ‘victim’ non-stop. Elsewhere, Huw explicitly asked not to receive underage material. Taking all this into account, it’s pretty clear to me that Huw Edwards is just a regular gay / bi dude who made an unfathomable amount of money.
I understand the eagerness to find examples of MAPs amongst the successful, the famous, the lauded and the loved, for MAPs to be able to find figures of hope and inspiration. But I’d caution against lumping in anybody that’s convicted or accused of sex crime involving minors, or who show an interest in lolicon / shotacon artwork or ‘barely legal teen’ porn, as indicative of minor-attraction. The question is, what is their sexual preference? What is someone preferentially, predominantly attracted to? No evidence presented here suggests that Huw Edwards is or was preferentially attracted to pre-pubescent children, or even post-pubertal adolescents.
Given that humans, especially males, are preferentially attracted to neoteny – the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood – there will be plenty of people just like Huw who are drawn to the Twinks, the Femboys, and young women. The most popular pornstars are not morbidly obese men and women in their 50s… It’s the expansion of legal codes governing childhood, into the realm of the sexually developmentally mature post-pubescent 17-year-old on the cusp of legal adulthood, that threatens to entrap ordinary people like Huw who show no signs of being paedophilic in any way. Let’s remember exclusive versus non-exclusive attraction…
If this were about Huw receiving, asking or paying for nude images of prepubescent children, then the media would be justified and not misleading to speak of ‘child porn’ in his case. But as it stands, going off the info presented here, his ordeal sounds like a ‘muh 17-year-old child’ case. Going after people on the basis of nudes of teenagers that they are sent by other people(!), doesn’t increase the mainstream media’s credibility when reporting on these events. I don’t know who needs to hear this, but: 7-year-olds are not the same as 17-year-olds!
Ive decided that anyone who calls 17 year olds children are actually saying the Southport stabber was innocent and incapable. Actually i did point that out, and was told i was on drugs. Um, no, you maybe?
The similarity or otherwise between those ages in the media depends on the purpose of the comparison. If it is to show vulnerability, as in victims of much-loathed sexual predators, then they are both tiny tots, barely capable of speech. If it is to show culpability in a crime, then – at least here in the UK – they are dangerous and need locking away for life. That explains why we have an age of consent of (de facto) 18 but a criminal age of responsibility of 10.
I for one (“MAP”) am far from pleased to see the blog supporting this drift into the monolithic, all-consuming narrative of mental health & PTSD which for decades now has all but obliterated (or wholly substituted for) our ability to invent, create, and generate novel stories.
If the following paragaph is typical, the author here gives every indication that for him the presence of any sort of mind at play is not even an issue:
” To my knowledge, as someone who mostly has just watched YouTube videos about the topic, trauma is any negative experience that overwhelms the brain and that it cannot process while it is happening. Therefore, the brain stores the experience to process it later (usually through grief).”
The notion appears to present a human person as the hapless container of machinery called ‘the brain’ that has failed “to process” what has entered its parts. Everything is reduced to “process” and “the brain” is henceforth up for grabs, invariably by an army of therapists with a host of drugs at the ready.
Does it not strike readers as starkly obvious how crazily close this all veers to the very belief we MAPs are, if you will, ‘sworn to opppse’? That of “the child” whose “brain” is “unable to process” the sexual experience it has had and only able to make sense of at all once suitably and “appropriately” instructed over time as to the real nature of what happened to it, the nature IOW of its “trauma”?
Your main point is interesting, Mr Turp, but it’s Finlay’s blog so I’ll shut up about that until he (and maybe others) have had a chance to respond.
But I will respond to this:
>I for one (“MAP”) am far from pleased to see the blog supporting this drift into the monolithic, all-consuming narrative of mental health & PTSD
I did not go looking for a mental health blog. Finlay submitted the piece unsolicited. I thought it was far too good to reject and that it might help many readers.
So, yes, it could be said that this blog topic came from directional drift rather than from firm direction on my part. I am relaxed about that because guest writers come up with good (IMO) stuff that I would never have thought about, from different perspectives to my own.
No need to panic or despair though, Mr Turp. HTOC could well drift back towards your preferences next time.
Thank you for your comment! I’m not sure if I’ll be able to respond to all of your mentioned concerns, but I hope I can address the most important ones without my comment getting too long:
1. I’m quite new to the topic of mental health and mental health narratives so I’d be surprised if my blog post would be 100% radical. I agree with you that there’re definitely a lot of aspects to the post that I’ll see as insufficiently radical as I’m learning more about the topic. Having said that, I believe it’s important to critique these narratives even if one is, as I am myself, unfamiliar with the subject. One main point of my blog post is disagreeing with the dominant narrative that MAPs can only improve their mental health by going to therapy. I feel this disagreement I expressed in my blog post is a perspective that hasn’t been expressed before, and is therefore valuable. Others may disagree, and perhaps see it as too positivist. I’m definitely interested in such disagreeing perspectives. That being said, consider, for example, MAPs who believe they need to get therapy to be happy. They might read this blog post, and realize they don’t need therapy. I speculate that many MAPs who feel they need therapy don’t read radical texts about MAP activism. So it’s my hope a blog post like mine that states that therapy isn’t “the only way”, can help them avoid stuff like volunteering for electroshock therapy.
2. The way I understand it, you seem to say the blog post expresses the idea that consciousness is electrical signals in the brain. My feeling is discussions about mental health often lead to abstract conversations about atheism, religion, and so on. I myself am more interested in what I would call practical topics, e.g. how mental health can be combined with MAP activism.
I kinda tried to focus attention away from atheism/religion by citing the World Health Organization when talking about meditation. Like, to avoid atheist MAPs from perhaps getting annoyed since meditation often seems to have strong religious connotations. Likewise, I mentioned that there isn’t anything spiritual for me about meditation, to avoid religious MAPs getting perhaps a bit annoyed at me for using guided meditations on YouTube (because I assume that could perhaps be seen as insufficiently spiritual if I were religious). Though of course if MAPs wish to discuss such things in regards to my blog post I’m totally okay with that. In any case, I don’t really have a strong opinion on whether people are just brains or not. I mean, I’m just a MAP in a confusing world I don’t understand. Some mental health information seems useful for me to make me feel better so I use it as a tool.
3. You mention ageist research about young people. I agree there’s a lot of ageist research, and that it’s important to be super careful about stuff like brain scans and so on. Brain scans to find cancer seem to be a definitely good thing to me. Brain scans to find characteristics of discriminated people seem to be 99% or 100% bad and prejudiced to me. In regards to brain scans that let’s say e.g. show meditation reduces the size of the amygdala and thereby apparently confirm meditation reduces stress and anxiety, I’m not sure. Ideally, in a better society nobody would have anxiety and therefore nobody would even have the idea to make such brain scans. But whether this kind of research does more good than bad things in current society is something I’m not sure about. I guess it’s a tool that always has the danger to be used for oppression, but can maybe also help if used carefully. Still, I mentioned at the end of the blog post that, to my knowledge, a common symptom of anxiety is to obsess over such research, and that this can prevent a person from actually doing things that improve their mental health. I’m curious about different perspectives people have in this regard.
Being a MAP is not a reason to go to therapy. This must be stated loud and clear.
However, I am very glad to read Finlay’s guest post. Many MAPs suffer mentally a lot, so it is logical that we have a post for discussing strategies towards having a better mental health. The post speaks about a variety of strategies; this is not (only) about threapists and drugs.
Discussing about coping and healing strategies does not stop us from advocating for MAP and child rights at the same time. Those are not contradictory things at all. They are in fact complementary. Of course that if he had a fair society, we would not need that much of mental health discussion. We cannot focus only on political activism, though. Political activism is done by political activists. And if those political activists do not have enough mental health, they will not be able to do political activism, will they? So…
Therapy is sometimes necessary and useful. I had anxiety crises in the past. I went to the threapist and he solved it. So for anyone who is reading this… yes, therapy can work. Especially if the therapist is well educated and informed, as it was my case. Nevertheless, once my anxiety was over, I wanted to work on other things, and this is when my therapist started subliminally to make me feel guilty about what caused my anxiety. So here’s my message: when your therapist has solved your anxiety or whatever you have, it’s time to quit. The takeaway of my story is that we should not be afraid of therapists. They know a lot about how anxiety works, and what strategies work. So it doesn’t make any sense not to use this resource. Yet, beware that they are just humans with prejudices and they make mistakes. Like everybody.