Damn fine judges in Amsterdam

The downfall (again) of 1970s rock star Gary Glitter was just one news item in a crazy week or so with any number of important paedo stories. With any luck, I’ll find time for a hasty round up, below, of the most significant developments; but Heretic TOC likes to set its own agenda, tracking deeper currents rather than current headlines.

The mainstream media flatter themselves that they too dig deeper, with their “in-depth” features and “probing” documentaries. These can work very well within set parameters, generating narratives of a kind the public wants to hear, but heretical interpretations tend to be smothered very quickly, as we know. So I was very sceptical when, in the wake of the Channel 4/Testimony Films debacle last yearI was approached by another TV documentary maker with a comparable project. As part of the preliminary talks, I was asked about PIE’s legal proposals in the 1970s. What did they amount to? Did I still agree with them?

The talks are still in progress. I suspect they will stall, as they usually do, but in the course of these negotiations I found myself reviewing the fate of PIE’s proposals in the wider context of the radicalism of those times, following one strand in particular: the Dutch experience from then until now. I explained to the TV people that my own personal proposal, as expressed in my book Paedophilia: the Radical Case in 1980, was a reduction of the age of consent (AOC) to 12 for penetrative acts. No such lower limit had been set out in PIE’s earlier proposals, but PIE never intended to legalise acts that would have been physically dangerous to younger children or imposed against their will. I added my age of 12 not because PIE’s reforms were bad in terms of their likely effect on children if implemented but because they had not been designed with the media in mind. They were somewhat complex, in order properly to deal with “grey area” cases where the child’s willing involvement was in doubt. Unfortunately, this complexity made it all too easy for the media, as we discovered, to misinterpret (wilfully or otherwise) the provisions and their likely effect.

PIE’s proposals were sound, in my opinion, but of course the times are even less propitious for them now than they were then. These reforms would have retained the criminal law to deal with sexual assault against children. Where sexual acts had taken place with the clearly willing participation of a child, it was deemed inappropriate to use criminal sanctions against the adult. In “grey area” cases, a civil law investigation would take place. A civil court could then sanction the adult, if necessary, in a variety of ways e.g. by ordering the termination of contact with the child. In effect, PIE had invented the ASBO (Anti-Social Behaviour Order) about 20 years before the Labour government.

PIE’s proposals, plus my own personal AOC caveat, would have resulted in something quite similar to what actually prevailed in the Netherlands in the 1980s: in that country, over the age of 12, it was widely the practice to use the criminal law only in cases where the child had not consented. This later became formalised in Dutch law, in 1990, but only until 2002, when the changing climate of the times saw the law revert back to an AOC of 16.

Sometimes the Netherlands of a few decades ago is seen as in an utterly ultra-liberal class of its own, but this is to overlook the intellectual ferment that saw AOC laws challenged by leading thinkers elsewhere, especially France, Germany and Scandinavia. There were even stirrings in the UK that went far beyond PIE. Last year saw present-day left-of-centre British politicians coming under fire for appearing to flirt with drastic AOC reduction in those days, thanks to their association with the then very radical National Council for Civil Liberties (the NCCL, now Liberty). The almost entirely right-wing media were really interested only in smearing the left, so they turned a blind eye to politically neutral organisations that had supported change. Notably, there was the National Council for One Parent Families, which, in its report Pregnant at School, recommended totally abolishing the age of consent. They felt decriminalization would make it easier to avoid early teenage pregnancies by ensuring that sexually active youngsters would be able to access contraception and good advice without fear of getting themselves or their partner into trouble with the law.

I went back over some of my old newspaper cuttings, and found amazing reminders of the radicalism of the 1970s. Take the following story, for instance, from the Evening Standard, London, in 1976 (22 June). Reading it now, we might mistake it for a spoof in The Onion. Headlined “Under-age sex law baffling, says judge”, it begins:

The controversial law which makes it illegal for a man to have sex with a girl under 16 was attacked by an Old Bailey judge today. When you have young women of this age and this maturity participating in a perfectly natural activity, it is difficult to brand the other partner as a criminal,” said Judge Neil McKinnon. QC. “The trouble is that this law stands as an attempt to protect fully mature young women against their own natural inclinations. That is what it comes to,” he said. “How on earth any society could delude itself into thinking that that sort of law can have any measure of success baffles me. “The question is, how do you vindicate a law of this character which is so controversial?” In the dock was 22-year-old Jonathan Groves of Bell Crescent Hooley, Surrey, who admitted having unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl aged 15 on February 24. The court heard that Groves met the girl in December. They had sex in a car while the girl was staying with the family of a friend. She was then 15 years four months. “I suppose she has no complaints at all,” said the judge. “A thoroughly satisfying experience from her point of view.

Honestly, I kid you not, this was a real judge talking about a 22-year-old man’s sex with a 15-year-old girl. In other words, while the girl was nearly of age, the man was significantly older than her, a fact that would hardly be overlooked today.

A more modern source, the Spotlight on Abuse website, obligingly reminds us:

The paedophile lobby was a lobby of ideas. It sought to change minds. The law, it believed, would then follow. The minds it sought above all were those within the Home Office. A Home Office paper from 1979 (Sexual Offences, Consent and Sentencing) suggested a lowering of the age of consent to 14 and that punishments be reduced for ‘consensual’ sex with girls of even younger ages.

Even the supposedly conservative Church of England had its sexual radicals. As Spotlight on Abuse reminded me, Dr John Robinson, a bishop, no less, is quoted as saying: “On the age of consent it’s quite clear the law is largely an ass. There is a vast amount of illegal sexual activity going on where ultimately no one is being exploited or damaged or abused… Theoretically it would be much better not to have any age of consent at all…”

From PIE’s own magazine, Magpie, I disinterred “The Dutch experience”, a 1981 article by the Dutch lawyer and senator, Dr Edward Brongersma. Jailed in the 1950s for a relationship with a teenage boy, Brongersma went on to fight, and in 1971 overturn, the law under which he was jailed; in 1975 he was knighted. While his work was always Netherlands based, he would become the world’s most distinguished pro-paedophile advocate.

Chapter 13 of my 1980 book Paedophilia: The Radical Case covers much the same ground as Brongersma’s Magpie article, both sources emphasising that churches, trade unions, political parties and the media in the Netherlands all signed up for radical sexual reform. But there is an astonishing further revelation in Magpie. Brongersma wrote:

Regarding the judges themselves, in Amsterdam at least, the children’s court is quite willing to make use of the special talents of a well-intentioned boy-lover when dealing with boys in trouble. When one of my clients, a 15-year old boy, who had committed a serious aggressive crime, told the magistrate that he saw himself as a homophile and that he lived with an adult male friend, the judge invited the man (who had served two sentences of imprisonment for “indecency” with boys) to come to his office, talked with him for half an hour and then instructed the observation centre, where the boy was detained, that this man was to be allowed to visit him. In several cases, young thieves of 14 and older were officially given into the custody of men, former[ly] sentenced for “indecency” with boys under sixteen, or otherwise known as paedophiles. This, as far as I know, with excellent results. In one case, which I was able to follow more closely, the boy broke his habit of shop-lifting, and his relationship with his family at home, as well as his school work, improved considerably.

That’s the way to do it!
The radical legacy persisted in the Netherlands into the 1990s when it was already evaporating elsewhere. Thus the penal code was amended in December 1991. Henceforth there could be no prosecution for sex with consenting children aged 12-16 unless a formal complaint was made by the child, their legal representative, or an official child protection agency. Anyone could approach such an agency with a view to a formal complaint being made. This provision appeared to allay the fears of conservatively minded Dutch parents with respect to their own children. The fabled Dutch spirit of toleration entered the picture insofar as such parents seldom felt the need to lay down the law for other parents and what their children do, or what adults might do with them.

Brongersma was my first major informant on all this, both from his writings and several occasions when I was privileged to meet him. The most significant later sources have been three other Dutch writers, Jan Schuijer (especially on Dutch toleration), Gert Hekma and latterly Juul Gooren.

On the short life-span of the 1991 law, Hekma tells us in his paper “The decline of sexual radicalism in the Netherlands”, that such radicalism across a range of issues ran out of steam for a variety of reasons. Interestingly, though, the retreat from permitting twelve-year-olds to have sex did not appear to have come about as a result of any specific problems with this permissive law. We are not told of evidence that children were being harmed by it. Hekma, a Dutch sociologist and historian, says, rather, that the move appears to have been brought about by more diffuse concerns about the innocence of the young in the face of the increasingly visible sexualisation of society in general – as evidenced by an ever-growing amount of sex on television and elsewhere.

While I have no doubt this was true, Hekma does not take us far in understanding those “diffuse concerns”, which, as elsewhere, must have included increasing feminist influence. One imagines there was also outside pressure for the Netherlands to fall into line, from NGOs working through the UN to diplomatic pressure from the US and UK.

My final source, Gooren, brings us right up to date with a paper published only last year. His research involved interviewing professionals, mainly police and lawyers, about age-discrepant consensual sexual encounters with a minor from age 12 upwards. He wanted to find out how such relationships are handled by the criminal justice system nowadays, including why some cases are prosecuted and others, even today’s stricter atmosphere, are not.

Sex with a minor below the age of consent in America is known as statutory rape, but Gooren points out that Dutch law relies on a different concept, namely “lewd conduct”, which has a moral basis. The difference between statutory rape and lewd conduct, says Gooren, is that the latter “does not necessarily presume that there was no consent on the part of the victim. The sexual contact is believed to be morally wrong due to its nature in combination with age.”

Interestingly, whereas sex with a child under 12 is automatically considered lewd, that is not the case even now in the Netherlands for minors of 12 and over. Thus sex between a boy and girl, both aged, say, 14, might not be considered lewd if they were in a steady relationship. In practice, peer relationships of that sort are seldom prosecuted in the UK either, but since 2003 they have very explicitly been illegal.

Gooren cites one fascinating case in which a youth of unspecified age had threesome sex with his 15-year-old steady girlfriend along with his 17-year-old pal. The pal was found guilty of lewd conduct but the girl’s boyfriend was acquitted. The offender had reasonable grounds for believing the girl had consented to sex with him. She initiated the action, doing a striptease for the pair of them. Then she had sex “doggy style” with her boyfriend, who climaxed very quickly. According to the pal (whose word seems undisputed) the girl then asked him what position he preferred. He, too, took her from behind.

Asked by Gooren to comment on the case, the Attorney General of the Netherlands, no less, said he did not think such a threesome should necessarily be considered lewd. He made the very good point that if the boyfriend’s pal, like the boyfriend, had previously had sex with the girl, then consistency would require that he too would be acquitted. “A threesome is thus only allowed,” he said, “if there is past promiscuity. Is that the message?”

Gooren concludes that the Netherlands criminal justice system in general tends to take a dim view where there is a significant age gap between the partners and also when the sex is of a casual or promiscuous nature. On the other hand, an age difference of five years might be considered acceptable between a man aged 20 and a girl of 15, but unacceptable between a boy of 15 and a relatively immature girl of 12. Gooren criticises the system for its reliance on untested assumptions, namely that “unequal” relationships, and sex outside of a “loving relationship” must be harmful.

What strikes me, though, as an outsider to the Netherlands, is that even now the atmosphere there towards underage sex, including with a somewhat older partner, seems more flexible and liberal than in the Anglophone countries.

REFERENCES
Brongersma, E. “The Dutch experience”, Magpie 15, Spring, 1981
Gooren, J. “ ‘Pre-adults’ Having ‘Casual’ Sex with No Strings Attached? Teenage Sexual Activity and Dutch Criminal Law”, Sexuality & Culture 18:257–278, 2014
Hekma, G, “The Decline of Sexual Radicalism in the Netherlands”. In: Hekma, G, (ed), Past and Present of Radical Sexual Politics, Mosse Foundation, Amsterdam, 2004
Schuijer, J. “The Netherlands changes its age of consent law”, Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia, 3(1):13-20, 1993
STOP PRESS As I said at the start, the news has gone crazy out there. I could just say go look at Clover News (see Blog Roll) where there is a constant stream of amazing stuff; but I do feel there are items that need a particular mention here, quite a few of which would each be worthy of a separate blog. Having written eight of these news briefs, I find that collectively they come to around 1,500 words. So, not so brief. I think it may be best if I hold them over for a couple of days, while y’all digest today’s blog. They’ll keep a while, I think, before they fossilise from news into history.

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Cyril

a new Turkish judicial study has revealed the younger the “victim” of CSA the less (s)he is subjected to threats, LEAs know about the case mostly from his/her family, 7- through 12-year-olds seem to court to be more subjected to non-penetrative sex offences, while 13- to 18-year-olds vice versa, and so on:

Uslu, N. (2022). “A Retrospective Investigation of Child Sexual Abuse”. YOBÜ Sağlık Bilimleri Fakültesi Dergisi , 3 (2) , 196-209 . Retrieved from https://dergipark.org.tr/en/pub/yobusbf/issue/72045/1099598

Cyril

wait, the article is available wholly: https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/2358209

mr pedo-man

I think also there were a few high profile child murders,that started the erosion of sexual sanity over there — Like their neighbours in Belgium,with the famous
serial killer Marc Dutroux; That was around 1995-96 – and yes as mentioned pressure from mainly america: wasn’t some gay activist “made to disappear” In the 1970s-1980s – was mentioned by one of the speakers on the youth sexual rights videos on Deep in the heart of Texas; Though they are long speeches;And I forget who mentioned this.
A number of shortcomings in the Dutroux investigation caused widespread discontent in Belgium with the country’s criminal justice system, and the ensuing scandal was one of the reasons for the reorganisation of Belgium’s law enforcement agencies.

A.

To nitpick: the judge supposed she had no complaints at all, but…did he know? Had she said as much? Hope so.
In 2013 Spain quietly raised its age of consent from 13 to 16 and its minimum age of marriage from 14 to 16 (can’t say I disagree with the latter reform: marriage is a heavy-duty legal contract). Sexual acts with previously legal kids are now punishable by 2-6 years in prison, or 12 years maximum for oral sex or intercourse. However, there can be case-by-case exceptions for consensual relationships between under-16s who are at a similar developmental stage. The decision to raise the AOC had apparently been taken in 2009. I imagine many CLs became very determined to enjoy their last few years of legal permission to have sex with 13-15 year olds… As far as I know, no evidence was adduced to support the change in the age of consent: nobody stood up and pointed to proof that an AOC of 13 was causing harm. According the Guardian at the time, “The rate of teenage pregnancy is low, less than a third of that in the United States. However, a report on sexual health in Spain…said all forms of sexually transmitted diseases are on the rise. All Spanish children receive sex education classes in the last year of primary school, when they are 11. But under the new education law proposed by Spain’s rightwing government, sex education will be removed from the curriculum.”
The age of consent in Germany is 14, kind of. I had a surreal feeling when I read a post by a German man matter-of-factly explaining his situation: he was 23 and found girls 12-15 ideally attractive though he could also be attracted to young women and had had a 3-year relationship with a young woman slightly older than him. He knew four guys who were also attracted to girls of 13. Quite recently he used to hang around some with a 13-year-old girl, and he currently knew a 14-year-old girl who would sometimes come over to his place after school to watch DVDs and make out. But apparently, even he could have gotten into hot water: German law allows for punishment if a person aged 21 or older exploits a 14-15 year old by taking advantage of their lack of capacity for sexual self-determination. In theory, that sounds good to me: a similar provision could be used to punish adults who had intercourse with young teenagers without using condoms. But in practice, it seems, the provision is often simply used to enforce the social prohibition against intergenerational relationships, as these relationships are considered exploitative by default.
Here’s the sad story of a 30-something Roman Catholic priest whose consensual sex with a 15-year-old girl (yes, girl) got him in trouble. He claims not to have known that the AOC in Norway is 16, since it’s 14 in Germany: http://www.thelocal.de/20140108/consent-laws-land-german-priest-in-norway-court
Here is the 1981 booklet ‘Paedophilia’ by the Netherlands’ Protestant Foundation for Responsible Family Development. Read and marvel: https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/psvg_81_en.htm
And the Guardian on Gary Glitter’s latest woes: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/05/gary-glitter-guilty-child-sex-offences

Jasmine

I wonder what the church thinks of this since, as a priest, he shouldn’t be having sex at all.
“the church’s pastor claims confidentiality did not apply, as the teenager was not a confirmed Catholic.
WTF? Since when is that a rule? As far as I know, if I go to confession where I live then, even as an open atheist, my secret is safe. This is just bullshit. What’s worse; it breaks The Virtue of Silence.
“She called on the court not to condemn the priest when she gave evidence, saying he had not coerced her. “I do not think he has done anything wrong,” she said.”
So she obviously believes the relationship was consensual. And yet the priest could still be “found guilty of abusing the 15-year-old girl”! This is madness! At least the sentence of six months in jail is less than what he might have gotten in the US.

A.

I’m a legal ignoramus, but yes, I think it is *much* less.
Whether you’re an atheist or not matters less, I would guess, than whether you’re a confirmed Catholic. But if memory serves me right, even eight-year-olds who are going to make their first communion but haven’t been confirmed yet are entitled to a secret confession. Yes, it is bullshit of course. One of my strongest memories from childhood is of constantly having my privacy intruded upon by various officious and dimwitted adults.

Jasmine

I’m not confirmed either and, even if I were, the fact that I’m openly atheistic (and my neighbourhood priest knows it) would invalidate any such confirmation anyway by breaking my communion with God. Anyway, the point is that one’s confessions are between the person confessing, the confessor, and God himself. A priest should never violate that confidence. Or maybe the church is just different here compared to over there? IDK.
I’ve always had near-absolute privacy. Both my parents trust me to be responsible and my mother, at least, believes violating children’s privacy is morally wrong since children (like all people) are autonomous agents. Her views (or genes; hard to tell) have strongly influenced me. Plus, this privacy is why I’m able to hang around on a paedo site like this one in the first place 😛

A.

Can’t be different, surely. Catholic is Catholic.
Good for your mother :).

Jasmine

Well, not exactly. The Latin and Eastern rites have some doctrinal differences. Beyond that, there’s the fact that not every diocese or every parish will do exactly as it’s expected to. And then, some times, something really is up to the bishop to determine for his diocese – although I doubt the confidentiality of confession is one of those things. I’m tempted to track down and ask our bishop or, if he’s too busy, the nearest priest.

A.

….there are Eastern rite Catholics? Learn something new every day.
Here’s what I should have looked up in the first place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_Confessional_and_the_Catholic_Church
“The doctrine of priest-penitent privilege is respected to varying degrees by the laws of different nations.” And Norway is a very secular place these days.

feinmann0

Has this come into effect yet A? I read that the proposed increase in the age of consent in Spain has yet to be voted, so the Criminal Code remains unchanged. The anticipated date for the change was nearly one and a half years ago.

mr pedo-man

It was 12 then 13 for a long time, because of their gypsy minority.

A.

Could you explain the link with the gypsy minority?

feinmann0

A., I think the answer to that lies in Yahoo Answers: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111123120059AAicCyN
Whether that particular answer is based in fact, I have no idea. I would have thought it more likely that Hispanic countries such as Spain, Argentina, Uruguay, Costa Rica have had low age of consent in force for some considerable time. In the case of Spain, maybe as long as 200 years, see: http://www.myetymology.com/encyclopedia/Age_of_sexual_consent.html. It seems that Spain for a short time even lowered the age of consent to 12 in 1998: http://www.ageofconsent.com/spain.htm.

Jasmine

I think that the Argentine laws with the range of protected yet permissible activity between 13-18 bares some resemblance to the Dutch situation referenced above, no?

mr pedo-man

Here is one of Spain’s young gypsy mothers; she is ten years old!
Was looking for the name of the gypsy population in Spain,can’t find it,Though
they probably have more that one group.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/nov/05/10-year-old-mother

A.

I was just reading Mark Danner’s Massacre at El Mozote, about the murder of several villages’ worth of peasants by the army during the Salvadoran civil war. At the end Danner includes a list of the victims’ names and approximate ages. Several of the girls apparently had their first child when they were twelve or thirteen, while several of the boys had their first child when they were fifteen, and one when he was thirteen. Girls typically had their first child in their later teens. A majority of couples were not married, despite the heavy influence of religion in their culture. Husbands/male partners were typically 5-20 years older than wives/female partners, though in some cases they were the same age or the wife was five years older. Women went on bearing children through their mid-forties, men through their fifties.

A.

Oh yes, and an interesting titbit from that book about Domingo Monterrosa, brilliant strategist, born soldier and unspeakable butcher: he eventually acquired a girlfriend, but he was also accompanied around by a beautiful boy of ten or twelve, who took care of his things.

mr pedo-man

Lucky man:-)

Jasmine

Religion or no religion, tons of (Latino, Caribbean, and African) Catholics have children and even long-time partnerships outside of holy matrimony. I suspect it’s less common in Europe and North America. The majority of the Catholics I know well enough to ask were born out of wedlock.
Beyond broad geography, it also tends to vary by social class, race, and level of urbanisation. Since the people you refer to were peasants, that takes care of class and indicates they were rural. What about race? Is that mentioned in the book?

A.

Really? I read in 2013 that it was just about to go through. But no, looks like you are right: according to this article, dated 13 January 2015, it never went through! Fancy that! http://www.thelocal.es/20150113/spain-set-to-raise-age-of-consent-from-13-to-15

The Martijn Association is now forbidden in The Netherlands because of its views and because of the truth about scientific studies on their website. officially Martijn is/was – they argue – a danger for the public order.
And also: the ‘integrity of the child’ is more important than the freedom of speech. Dutch judges argue. Dutch fascist judges I would say.

sugarboy

I wonder how the country managed to survive for 30 years while that “danger for the public order” was alive and well-respected?!

mr pedo-man

And those same politicians would be linking arms in solidarity,only a few weeks ago,In the streets,claiming; Je suis Charley
What a bunch of Charley’s!

Jack Summer

I wonder when things will start settling down with this hysteria and rational minds prevail? I do not believe we will never return to more rational and sexually free times, in regards to youth. It will be interesting to see the day, so I can hand out many “I told you so’s” At the same time, living in the moment, it seems so pervasive that things will never change. We have institutions that actively make kids wary of any adult who shows a “not normal” interest in them or who merely treats them respectfully, with nothing sexual at all.

mr pedo-man

Indeed: You have to think twice about any affectionate interactions,irrespective
of any sexual connotations – Its sad cos its so natural and normal.

Jasmine

This is interesting. I find the situation in the Netherlands pre-2002 to be quite acceptable, as far as I’m concerned.
‘“A threesome is thus only allowed,” he said, “if there is past promiscuity. Is that the message?”’
Hmm… Now doesn’t that ring a bell?
“I think it may be best if I hold them over for a couple of days”
Dammit! Had to dangle it in front of our faces? 😛

Dave Riegel

The debate is not completely dead. In “The Role of Androphilia in the Psychosexual Development of Boys” ( http://www.boyandro.info ) the argument is made:
“Should not science at long last free itself from “magical powers,” ethnocentric superstitions, and narrow minded taboos that cannot be shown to have any basis in fact, and which may well exacerbate (Malón, 2009b), rather than ameliorate, these afflictions that burden young males? Crittendon (1996) proposed that consensual sexual relationships between children and older persons be “considered more as a common variant of human behavior than abnormal behavior” (p. 166), and it would seem that the time has arrived to part company with the failed pseudoscientific myths of victimology (Malón, 2009a) and the child sex abuse industry (Dineen, 2001), and to replace them with a model of boyhood psychosexual developmental motivations and behaviors that is built upon honest and unbiased empirical observations, truth, and reality – a genuinely scientific paradigm that accurately reflects, and properly serves, the fundamental qualities and needs of boys.”

feinmann0

In response to Peter Herman’s piece in ‘The pencil is mightier than the sword?’ (20th January 2015), I added an extract from John DeCecco’s interview in Paidika 3 regarding childhood sexuality, in which he said: “Maybe the inquiry should be framed differently; not an inquiry into paedophilia per se, but an inquiry into childhood sexuality and the roles that adults play in that, including the sexual role.”
I note and whole-heartedly agree with Dave Riegel’s argument which touches on the same topic. I will also add a further extract entitled: ‘The Three Discourses of Paedophilia’, by Kenneth Plummer, a Sociology lecturer at Essex University, when interviewed by Paidika back in 1990.
“I would say that there are three major forms of discourse or ways of encoding adult-child sexual experiences.
One is a ‘paedophile’ language that talks about love, and clearly has a positive image of these relationships described in many different ways, though they are seen as complicated. This language is largely concerned with man-boy love, and it has a minimum organization around it. It’s a discourse which is almost taboo; it functions in small worlds, it doesn’t function outside of those worlds very much.
Then there is the current dominant discourse which is ‘child sexual abuse’. This discourse is the one people adopt when they start talking about adults and children and sex. It excludes the possibility of even talking about paedophilia as a love relationship. It inexorably draws the paedophilia discourse into it and doesn’t engage it in its own terms.
The third discourse is the ‘childhood sexuality’ discourse. Both the paedophiles and the child abuse lobbyists touch upon this, but never in a complex way. For many of the people who use the paedophile language, the child is sexual, and the child’s sexual needs need to be tended to. They say, the child is sexual and we’re the ones to meet those sexual needs. These two thoughts don’t follow logically at all, but you often hear that in the paedophile disclosure. And of course, in the main, the child sexual abuse lobby doesn’t see the child as sexual at all. By denying the child’s sexuality they construct an image which in itself, I think, is abusive, namely that children have no sexual or sensual needs. And certainly they cannot make any decisions about their erotic lives. Yes, the child sexual abuse lobby abuses children by denying them any kind of sexuality, and in the process can cause them a lot of suffering.
These three discourses are all talking about related phenomena, but in radically different ways. The abuse lobby brought out the fact that real abuse was going on, but they overstated their case and created hysteria. The paedophile discourse sometimes over-romanticises and is often self-deluding. A large amount of paedophile writing talks as if there is a sort of natural gravitation that things are very wonderful and there’s a lot of care and love. Realistically a lot of it is not like that at all. My own preference of the three would be to look at childhood sexuality.
One of my concerns during the mid-1980s was with the process by which children currently construct their sexuality. What is a child’s sexuality? I don’t take the view that the child is either naturally sexual or naturally non-sexual. There is nothing biologically given in either the adult or the child. Children build up their sexual meanings through the groups they move around with. Girls develop them in some ways and boys in other ways, depending upon the ways in which girls and boys are treated differently. It is also important that there is always adults around responsible for giving children sexual messages.
The child has to interpret its body. It has to make sense of its feelings. It has to make sense of its genitals. It has to make sense of relationships. Children are given complicated messages by adults, educational messages, about language, about just ways of conducting their lives, for example. But as for the body, or the emotions and the interpersonal they are not given messages. They are given great big gaping voids into which all sorts of negative things rush in. They are not given clear messages. So the children grow up stumbling around sexually and interpersonally. This goes back to my point about the sexual abuse lobby perpetuating another abuse by not seeing the child’s need to make sense of its sexual world, or even recognize that there was such a sexual world for the child.”

Jasmine

“They say, the child is sexual and we’re the ones to meet those sexual needs. These two thoughts don’t follow logically at all”
I’d say it kind of does if you don’t skip steps:
P1) (Some) children are sexual and have sexual needs which should be met.
P2) Most adults are insufficiently minor-attracted to be available for meeting such needs.
P3) These needs can’t/shouldn’t always be met by peers.
P4) Paedophiles are willing and able to meet such needs (in some cases).
C) .: It might as well be paedophiles doing the need-meeting.
One may, of course, challenge any of these premises (I myself feel tempted to) or point out external considerations (which I’m even more tempted by) but you have to admit that when laid out in full detail, the conclusion follows from the premises.
“There is nothing biologically given in either the adult or the child.”
Hooray! Yet another anti-biodeterminist spotted in the wild! If only I could track this guy down and throw charts of hereditary variation at him until they stick…

James

LOL! I wasn’t aware that you two were acquainted. It’s too bad that I live so far away from all the interesting people. I imagine it’d be quite entertaining for you to watch since your views on biodeterminism (much like your views on morality) seem to be somewhere between my own and those of a normal person :p

Jack Summer

He makes good points. Sometimes paedosexuals do romanticize the situation. Often I feel they have much more romantic feelings than the child, though of course this is not always the case. Regardless children are sexual, this isn’t really disputable. It is a biological fact just like needing water to live is a biological fact. Of course some are more sexual, others are less sexual, but all are sexual and child sexuality seems to be of a curious, exploratory, open, and for fun nature. I too wish for more of a discourse on child sexuality. I am of the opinion that the abuse discourse is much more harmful to children than any other discourse as it dehumanizes children and ignores their wishes and desires. Forcing them to fit a social/moral mold that is unnatural.
(I hope I do the html right)
They say, the child is sexual and we’re the ones to meet those sexual needs. These two thoughts don’t follow logically at all,
How does this not follow logically at all? I want to know what thought process he has that totally dismisses this. It makes some sense, I have no sexual interest in kids, though they have on some occasions requested of me to partake in sexual games, I declined, their peers weren’t educated enough in the manner to be efficient, a loving more knowledgeable adult who is attracted to them is ideal. Sounds logical to me.

clovernews

They say, the child is sexual and we’re the ones to meet those sexual needs. These two thoughts don’t follow logically at all,
How does this not follow logically at all?

Logically, a child’s sexual needs could be met by another child: I think that is what is meant.
Also, in addition to Plummer’s ‘three discourses’, what’s the matter with sex for its own sake? It’s considered all right between adults, and, for all I know, might be the default between prepubescents, so why not between adults and children? (I’m thinking more of casual sex than Moroccan boy brothels and the like.)

mr pedo-man

I was there – not in the brothels; (I would be so lucky,was with my ex haha!)
was in Marrakech — When ditched the girl for few hours,went exploring the bustling streets,and had a few youths,early teens I’d say,looking into me eyes and saying bonjor! cool – think there’s some love-hate there,regarding homosexuality-pederasty!

Jack Summer

Oh I can see that. However he said “doesn’t logically follow at all“. Still, even then, as with all things, having just another child is usually not enough (though of course it can be). Kids routinely seek adult involvement for learning. Sexual or otherwise. Which is why I question the “at all” part.

Jack Summer

And yes I agree about the casual sex part. Pleasure for pleasure sake it a fine thing, even then it is not just pleasure, but bonding, reducing stress, etc. The downsides (to the consensual) are all socially implanted.

James

“but all are sexual”
Obligatory ‘but what about asexuals, guys!?’ This is why I qualify almost everything (see what I did there?) I say. Humans are varied and that variation has some long-ass tails. For any sweeping statement about people (other than obvious tautologies like ‘all humans are human’) someone, somewhere is going to violate it.

Jack Summer

Apologies, I ignored the asexual. Most children and most humans in general are sexual, barring the asexual and varying degrees of sexuality. Sorry about that.

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