Friends with benefits for youth

Friendship needs no marketing campaign. Its benefits are obvious.

How about “friends with benefits”? We probably have in mind an adult scenario: sex without a committed relationship between friends who trust each other not to foul up anyone’s marriage, or whatever. Not just a hook-up: more caring and personal. Sounds good, albeit not a MAP thing.

Or is it? Actually, it is massively an intergenerational phenomenon. It is just that we haven’t been talking in these terms. We can begin to now, though, thanks to the fascinating findings of an overlooked research paper dug up and posted recently in the comments section here by “Prue”, one of our most erudite contributors. This is an article by Sylvester Madu and Karl Peltzer in the Archives of Sexual Behavior of 2001, titled “Prevalence and Patterns of Child Sexual Abuse and Victim-Perpetrator Relationship Among Secondary School Students in the Northern Province (South Africa)”.

Doesn’t sound too promising, does it? There’s the unscientific “CSA” construct, the hopelessly negative “victim-perpetrator” language, and the apparent irrelevance to developed societies such as our own in the UK of findings from far away and still exotic South Africa. Not even modern, urban South Africa at that, but “Northern Province”, wherever that might be. As it turns out, it is just south of Zimbabwe, on the southern side of the Limpopo River, which forms the national border. It has been known since 2002 as Limpopo province.

Known for bushland and wildlife reserves, including part of Kruger National Park, Limpopo province includes vast plains and spectacular mountain ranges. The people are mainly black Bantu speakers; the whites speak mainly Afrikaans. Many blacks are subsistence farmers or migrant labourers. There are urban areas but even the largest city, Polokwane (formerly Pietersburg), is small by international standards, having about the same population as Exeter or Stratford-on-Avon.

The human geography is more important to us than the physical kind, though, as we will see; but for now let’s turn to the research itself, including eye-popping findings in which friendship with benefits plays a startling role.

This was a survey of 414 secondary school students. These were students who had finished their primary and secondary schooling and had moved on; they were now in grades classed as further education and training. This meant they were over 16 but not likely to be much older. They completed a questionnaire that asked about sexual encounters they’d had with someone at least five years older before they were 16, the usual definition of CSA. Results were measured separately for three kinds of sexual activity: kissing, touching, and intercourse (oral/anal/vaginal). Among those students reporting one or more of these things, 86.7% were kissed sexually, 60.9% were touched sexually, and 28.9% had experienced oral/anal/vaginal intercourse. The results showed an overall “CSA” prevalence rate of 54.2%, with 60% for males and 53.2% for females.

Those familiar with prevalence surveys may already have spotted that these results are unusual. The high percentage of boys compared to girls is striking, as is the very high overall level of encounters. But the most interesting findings emerge towards the end of the Abstract:

“Friend” was the highest indicated perpetrator in all patterns of sexual abuse. Many victims (86.7%) perceived themselves as not sexually abused as a child, and many (50.2%) rated their childhood as “very happy.”

The real stunner, obviously, is that despite all the talk of “abuse” and “victims”, as many as 17 out of every 20 so-called victims did not feel they had been abused, and therefore cannot have seen themselves as victims. Fully in accordance with this perception, at least half of them said they had been “very happy”.

There are shrieking contradictions here, are there not, between the researchers’ assumptions and definitions on the one hand and the truth of the matter on the other?

But what is truth, as they say? It is an elusive business. So we need not be surprised to find that instead of just ditching their false assumptions and failed theory, the researchers proceeded to bend over backwards in a desperate effort to reconcile their dogma with realities that uncomfortably threatened their entire philosophy of human intimacy and – perhaps even worse for them –  their comfortable careers as intelligence officers in the war against imaginary sex crimes.

Let’s see how they did it.

Sensibly enough, they start with some reasonable points about the exceptional nature of the province, focused on the human geography briefly mentioned above. They note that in Northern Province (Limpopo) many parents work as migrant laborers, either in other provinces or at places far away from their homes. As a result, they say, many children are left either alone at home during the weekdays after school or with nannies and grandparents, “who may not give them proper care”. Thus, it is suggested, the children “are vulnerable to sexual abuse from opportunistic perpetrators”. What they mean by “proper care”, of course, is what youth liberationists might call oppressive surveillance and control.

Responding to the high prevalence rate of “abuse” among the male subjects (60%), they suggest that “absence of the adult male (who is working as a migrant laborer) in many families and the frequent single parenthood in the society contribute to adult females abusing boys”. They could definitely be onto something with this one. Totally contrary to the dictates of feminist victimological theory, it makes no sense to insist that boys who have sex with women must necessarily be seen as victims: many of them are wildly enthusiastic and can hardly believe their luck when it happens – as has been demonstrated empirically in developed-world studies much bigger than this African one, notably in the famous work of Bruce Rind and his colleagues, which I will be turning to shortly.

The human geography of Limpopo also includes village dwelling as opposed to urban life, and the ethnic composition of the population. Conducted in three different schools with the aim of capturing such differences in a representative way, the survey found a higher rate of urban “abuse” (62.8%) than rural (53.1%). The authors felt the stronger family and social ties experienced in the rural setting (theoretically enabling more “proper care”) could have accounted for this lower rate. The same control factor, they felt, also explained a lower rate of “abuse” among blacks (51.2%) than whites (76.5%). These explanations are plausible, but less significant than the unmentioned elephant in the room: once “off the leash”, whether through migrant parental absence or whatever, children have no inbuilt distaste for sexual contact with adults.

Having made a reasonable stab at accounting for the high prevalence rates, the authors fare less well when trying to explain away the students’ lack of perceived victimhood. They write:

One may also speculate that many participants who indicated “friend” as the perpetrator may have decided to ignore our age criterion for perpetrators and indicated all forms of childhood sexual relationship with a friend or some of the participants may have written the word “friend” to mean an “acquaintance” (as some people in the area colloquially use it).

But why would they ignore the age criterion? And might not an older person who was initially a mere acquaintance become a real friend in the course of a relationship? No answers are offered, which is strikingly remiss given the very happy childhoods experienced by many of these youngsters and their perception that they had not been “abused”. Apparently in desperation, the authors finally conclude that this perception “may be because of inclusion of many trivial incidents”.

Trivial? Well, there are plenty of male old dinosaurs who still do not see a stolen kiss or squeeze of the backside as any great crime, still less when such acts are welcome or invited. But within the abuse industry, even two decades ago when this study was published, this claim that any act defined as CSA was “trivial” must have raised a few eyebrows. And now, in the wake of #MeToo, one suspects they would be drummed out of the business for such heresy.

Good researchers acknowledge the limitations of their study. These authors, Madu and Peltzer, have dutifully done so, making a number of good points, including their politically incorrect one about “trivial incidents”. The inclusion of very mild “abuse” would definitely explain why some acts were not seen as abuse by the students, but by no means all or most acts were of this kind. As well as “sexual kissing” at the mild end, experienced by 86.7% of “victims”, 60.9% had been touched sexually, and 28.9% had been engaged in oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse. Of the intercourse, 7.1% said force had been used – with the implication that well over nine out of 10 of these “non-trivial” encounters (92.9%) had been unforced, with no indication that they had been coerced in any way or that the child had been other than a fully willing participant.

In view of the amazing findings of this study, it makes sense to ask what the wider research community made of it. Was it discarded and allowed to lapse into obscurity because of some scandal relating to data fabrication by the authors, or exposure of faulty research methods?

Absolutely not. The paper was properly peer-reviewed in a leading academic journal. The authors themselves have gone on to become senior figures: Madu is a professor with over 1,500 citations to his name; Peltzer’s publication record is even more impressive, with over 20,000 cites. This particular paper has been cited 138 times on Google Scholar. Most of them turn out on inspection to be not very relevant but about a dozen are: these are the ones that delve in some detail into the findings. None of them take serious issue with the research methods or express doubts over the findings so far as I can see – and I looked pretty closely.

So this paper belongs in the mainstream of the literature; it is canonical. What’s more, it is an improvement on many retrospective CSA studies by virtue of the fact that it is one of a relatively small number of studies that have asked youngsters of school age directly about their experiences, while their memories are still fresh and they have not had their feelings about it bent out of shape by anti-CSA propaganda in the media and elsewhere over years or even decades, as is likely in the case of studies undertaken deep into adulthood.

This same advantage, from kids responding directly, was seen in the Finnish Child Victim Survey on which Heretic TOC reported earlier this year. Heretics here may remember that this survey was studied by Bruce Rind, mentioned above, who highlighted the children’s strongly positive perceptions of their experiences – which we can now see should not have come as a great surprise bearing in mind the earlier data from far-away Limpopo.

I hope some readers will re-read that earlier blog, titled “Stunning comeback for a great champ”, to make their own comparisons. One striking feature of similarity between the Finnish findings and the South African ones, is that children in both studies identified some of the so-called “perpetrators” as “friends”, and that when they did so the positivity expressed was considerably higher than when this was not the case. So, “friends with benefits” indeed!

 

CHESS PRODIGY MAKES HIS MARK

Eight-year-old Maksym Kryshtafor, a Ukrainian refugee now living with his mother in England, has lost no time making his mark here. Just four days after arriving in the country he defeated adult competition to win a chess tournament in Darlington, picking up a £400 prize.

Maksym lived in Odesa, southern Ukraine. He and his mum Iryna fled to Romania shortly after the war broke out in February. Just days before the annual competition was held, they were brought to the UK by North Yorkshire chess enthusiast Paul Townsend as part of the UK Homes for Ukraine scheme. They are now living with Paul and his family near Harrogate and Maksym has been enrolled in a local primary school.

Maksym is the current Ukrainian Under-8 Champion and defeated experienced North East players winning all five games he played at the event, as reported in local paper the Chronicle, Newcastle. But his fame didn’t end there. There has also been an absolutely huge write-up in the New York Times, with over a dozen photos of the winsome young talent!

Maksym’s success in this event brought back memories for me. I used to live near where it took place, in Darlington, County Durham, and played for a club in the county. Like Maksym, I took part in the Durham Chess Congress, in my case about 15 years ago when it was held in the city of Durham.

Unlike Maksym, alas, I did not win my event. I did manage to beat the winner of a similar congress held a few weeks earlier, but among my less successful games was one against another child prodigy, a charming boy aged about 10. My excuse is that I must have been somewhat distracted!

Maksym stares down his opponent before winning a game of speed chess in a U.K. schools tournament in June – but the really scary thing is his brilliant chess brain.

 

JUST WHEN YOU FELT SAFE…

By now you have probably begun to relax, feeling you have landed safely in a royalty-free zone, secure in your belief that you won’t be triggered by endless blather about duty, service, successions, ceremonies, salutes, funerals, etc.

No such luck! My childhood role as a chronicler of our monarchy’s history cannot be ignored (or not on my own blog at any rate! 😊) I started life in August 1945 as a little Georgian, not an Elizabethan, and was six and a half when the old king died. A school exercise book still in my possession reminds me that I loyally recorded the date of his funeral and burial with my own unskilled hand and hit-and-miss spelling. But I definitely got the date right, as the official order of service shows. See photos below.

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Tom, have you had any engagement at all lately with that somewhat ‘elitist’ bunch of geezers at Unherd? I ask because i ventured a comment beneath J Bindel’s latest reckless, heedless conflation of sexual kids with “abuse”, and that comment then promptly disappeared (I’m sure you’ve seen the hitpiece i speak of here). Not just plunged to the very bottom of the stack accompanied by how many bright red downvotes, but vanished. This never fails to hurt, and hurt badly, because it is so obviously the brazen destruction of free speech, and on the part of a platform that would affect to openly champion same. It is the very antithesis of supposedly British fairplay! I’m wondering if you have any counsel on how to go about addressing them in a sent complaint? The last time this happened and i protested to them i received a very windy reply (after about two weeks’ wait!) that really didn’t even make sense to me.

Last edited 1 day ago by warbling j turpitude

A daunting task you say, Tom? Well, given your recent confession of belief in the magical powers of oxycontin, it shouldn’t be too difficult for ya to defend one who believes a “lovable” child to be in reality but a shoe, a suitable depository for the emissions of his delusional ardour? Why, by “romancing” that shoechild he could for all we know be assisting evolution in binding us to ever more exotic but dependable footwear, that will in turn assist us oxyincontinents in our mad pursuit of further reproductive bondage?

Mes excuses si ta confession était une blague!

Last edited 1 day ago by warbling j turpitude
warbling j turpitude

My earnest attempt at a clever joke fell it seems entirely flat there, not least due to my writing oxycontin instead of oxytocin. C’est la vie..

But thankyou for these updates!

Last edited 20 hours ago by warbling j turpitude
Zen Thinker

We know (courtesy of the IWF) that CSAM has seen a shocking and unprecedented rise, but these must be the stupid or uninformed, because only an idiot would risk their hide on that toxic junk in today’s social media landscape.

True, Meta’s stock price is in a death spiral at the moment, but I can’t recommend their product Instagram enough to conscientious and responsible MAPs, i.e. those who treat the rules of the game with respect.

I don’t recommend TikTok in the same way because last I checked, their FYP (“For You Page”, i.e. their core algo) deliberately excludes children. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on this.

Also, TikTok is a potentially dangerous landmine of adult-child interaction, which can land one in serious trouble (so many pitfalls to negotiate!) whereas IG is mostly parent-run.

I feel like such a product in fact protects MAPs from criminality, because when the IG algo is firing properly (and it can be hit and miss) it’s truly awesome, and provides more than adequate fulfilment, because we all fundamentally desire beauty and aesthetic appeal. Trust me, it can be a beautiful experience, both viscerally and aesthetically.

But this point is crucial: Instagram literally protects against criminality. It, in a way, legitimises MAPs. Offering a path of fulfilment and yet one that is safe and legal is key to the “final solution” for MAPs (lol). So whether this is deliberate design or happy accident, I am impressed with Meta for trailblazing this.

Cyril

a feminist and an official seems to support adult-child sex:

Perplexed

@Tom, I would still be very curious as to what legal reforms you and your peers were proposing back in the 60’s and 70’s. See how they stack up to what we have now, and see if any might be worth revisiting or revising. I can’t imagine it contained only things that would outrage people now, surely some of it would have a great deal of relevance to the conversations about sex and consent and the law that we’re having today.

Perplexed

I’m kinda surprised at the rather conservative tone the authors take, and the seemingly legalistic approach they have, at first glance. While the content may be radical, it’s a far cry from some kind of free for all and certainly not written in a radical style. It’s interesting to note that there is in fact still an age of consent, even if it is significantly lower, not that I’m knocking its presence.

It seems somewhat cumbersome, though- an open invitation for a whole slew of new litigation. The lawsuits would be endless (truth be told- lawsuits are already endless in duration and supply). It seems overly complex in some ways and overly simplistic in other ways, though I suppose that’s just the nature of lawmaking in general. I’ll have to give it a more thorough consideration before giving a more detailed analysis.

Last edited 4 days ago by Perplexed
Stephen James

What about ditching the age distinctions and just have the system of injunctions applied irrespective of the ages of those involved?

Stephen James

I meant leaving out the age distinctions in the full proposal, as they don’t seem to me to be justified.

Leonerd

Dear Tom, did you ever thought to reissue your book to reflect the changes and knowledges gained over the past 40 years ?

Stephen James

If you were aiming to publish it in 1995 then it would have been a 15th. anniversary edition (not 25th.)!

JSM

Great post Tom. Very positive.

Zen Thinker

Two things:

1) Tucker did an extended headline feature on his show on Monday on the sexualisation of children and MAPs. He expressed fury that society was colluding to “sexualise children” through teaching & teaching materials, all-ages drag culture, etc all emanating from the top with Biden, who, Tucker reminded us, took showers with his daughter as a little girl. There was at least some undeniable empirical evidence to suggest liberalised attitudes on sex have been pushed. For example, some extremely explicit books encouraging sexualisation were available in school libraries, from very young ages too. This isn’t the world of even ten years ago. And have you heard of the Prostasia Foundation Tom? Tucker and fellow conservatives hate it. They push a pro-MAP, anti-abuse agenda, with abuse being especially defined as contact with a child against their will. He was also furious that Allyn Walker had received a promotion lol.

2) The Overton Window is shifting on Insta. ‘Eroticism’ is subjective but fully clothed child eroticism is in my opinion being shown within the legitimising framework of the Instagram platform. Things that would have got me shit scared ten years ago are slowly but surely creeping into the randomised algo driven “reels”. And for the avoidance of doubt, Instagram is a heavily policed and regulated platform and anything that passed its rigorous systems is 100% legal and legit. So this is perhaps as good a barometer as any of shifting social mores – it is effectively a cultural commentary on our attitudes towards children.

Zen Thinker

Lol “my pal Tucker”. I understand what you’re saying, but surely MAPs can be right wing too? I like Tucker on many cultural issues, but have profound disagreements as well, such as this (and gun rights).

Minor attraction is not automatically a left wing issue. There’s a complex ‘dot plot’ to many people’s politics. I support MAP rights and criminal rehabilitation, but also religious rights, freedom of speech and preservation of the traditional arts.

Let us NOT forget however that the publication “Show Me!” hauled out the same bizarrely hypocritical line to justify itself: a child informed by this book on sexual matters will not be so easy prey to “sexual perverts,” “psychopaths,” and “strangers.”

We were it seems by 1975 already well over our heads in rampant doublespeak.

Last edited 8 days ago by Warbling J Turpitude
sugarboy

I don’t recall reading this “hypocrital line” or anything alike in my edition; on the other hand, there were references to Bronsgerma and other studies that showed that sexual relationship between adults and children often have positive consequences for both parts. Editions printed in different countries had probably different prefaces and commentaries.

Warbling J Turpitude

Try page 158?

[MODERATOR: Would help to keep the conversation open to all if some detail given.]

Prue

“For example, some extremely explicit books encouraging sexualisation were available in school libraries, from very young ages too. This isn’t the world of even ten years ago. And have you heard of the Prostasia Foundation Tom? Tucker and fellow conservatives hate it. They push a pro-MAP, anti-abuse agenda, with abuse being especially defined as contact with a child against their will. He was also furious that Allyn Walker had received a promotion lol.”

> To be picky, “encouraging sexualization” doesn’t seem accurate to me: “sexualization” as a discourse relies on the notion of sexuality as an external thing imbued, implanted, to be really fancy, interpolated, into the “child.” Aren’t sex ed books working from an opposing presupposition, accepting (on some level, and sometimes begrudgingly), that minors can have erotic feelings and experiences regardless of social or familial proscriptions? I think the unexpressed concern in sexualization panic is the fear that young people’s normative sexuality is being acknowledged, as sex ed books necessarily do.

Though, of course, it’s a great thing that sex ed books of any kind are published and available. Tom below mentioned the book “Show me!: A picture book of sex for children and parents”. I believe I’ve said it before but I really love the intro to this book, available in English online, written by Helmut Kentler. Very thought provoking and well-worth a read. Kentler came from a background influenced by Reich and his own experience of living though the German Nazi regime. A very sex negative early life, from what I’ve seen he came to believe that sexual repression has a relationship to violence (similar to Prescott Tom cites in his 2018 article as support for the claim that sexually freer societies are less violent). I find it quite powerful reading Kentler and others who lived through Nazism. Far more than the Left at present, they seem to recognize the importance of free speech, having known how awful it can be to be arrested or even killed for dissident speech.

Reminded of a beautiful article by sexologist Erwin J. Haeberle who was sympathetic to MAPs:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3812563.pdf

> He was also furious that Allyn Walker had received a promotion lol.

Again, to be picky, hasn’t Allyn accepted a demotion as such? They went from assistant professor at OId Dominion to post-doc research fellow at John Hopkins…

Zen Thinker

Hi Prue, yes that’s a really good point, are books such as Gender Queer acknowledging sexuality and not imposing something externally? I think this is a very complex question and obviously conservatives and liberals interpret it differently. I broadly welcome a less repressive sexual environment for children, though. And my view is that these books are not necessarily tasteful or produced to a high standard of “artistic” integrity, but that if they begin to end the Victorian era repression that all children have had to grow up in, that is surely positive.

On Allyn Walker, my apologies, Tucker Carlson described it as a promotion, but you’re no doubt more of an expert on academia!

Stephen James

>Biden, who, Tucker reminded us, took showers with his daughter as a little girl

Surely Biden has never been a little girl! 🙂

Stephen James

Ah! Don’t get me started!

Zen Thinker

Tom, re: Prostasia, they may have an “orthodox” interpretation of abuse, but according to An Open Secret, a Twitter account with a 112k following, “they advocate for legalising child porn, as well as abolishing the sex offender registry.” Is this true or more fake news?

As for Tucker Carlson, tbf he didn’t say this about Prostasia, I got mixed up with another story, where a Spanish minister is purported to have said: “kids need to know their bodies and know adults can’t touch them unless they (the kids) want to. And that the kids are free to have sexual relations with whomever they want as long as there’s consent.” I can’t vouch for the authenticity of this quote, it was translated from Spanish and reported by @Cernovich – a 1m Twitter account.

With Carlson, yes he regularly distorts the truth but I watch him for entertainment.

Christian

Prostasia is for legalising child sex dolls and virtual CP, that is, synthetic images. They are against legalising real CP with real kids.

Densetsu

^This here. To me, Prostasia has never appeared to be more than a VirPed-light to me. The organization gets a lot of support from people consuming fictional child porn, since that type of content as slowly but surely been moved towards illegality around the Western world over the last two decades.

They would have already been disbanded had they ever supported intergen sex, even to the milquetoast degree that Newgon does it.

Zen Thinker

Well, the level of hatred out there is insane…pro-MAP organisations don’t stand a chance. Virped has been permanently suspended from Twitter, simply for being unpopular.

I was just browsing Twitter anti-MAP accounts, and someone was celebrating that a “pedo” in their neighbourhood committed suicide. There were a tonne of jubilant comments, firework GIFs, lots of “awesome” and “this has made my day”. Another said, “at the very least, all ‘pedos’ should be banished from society”. And lots of talk of woodchippers. It was brutal, unsophisticated, unintelligent, but represents a groundswell of feeling among “ordinary people”.

Obviously the lack of Christian compassion and the dumb brutality sickened me. It was a bestial display of “attack the outsider”. Now you may understand why MAPs hide themselves on social media.

And of course hurting a vulnerable child is wrong, but minor attraction is a mental state, not a violent act of sadism. The stupidity, the animal aggression of broad anti-MAP sentiment shocks, sickens and appals me. Most of us must permanently hide our identities or be crucified.

I can only speak for myself, and I would never harm a child, or ever attempt any form of contact, physical or online. As long as draconian punishments exist, it is one landmine in life to avoid. As people who read my comments know, I use safe Instagram for reels and photos of kids. Never anything illegal or even in a grey area; maybe occasionally YouTube. I may view IG for the aesthetic appeal, and sometimes I may masturbate, and I also use Pornhub for regular teen porn. My favourite age is 6-7 but I can get off to 18-19 year olds no problem.

So I’d like to know where the harm is in being a MAP and engaging in these behaviours, which apparently merit a woodchipper death.

Leonerd

and I also use Pornhub for regular teen porn

This is nonsense. Imagine if by the request “adult porn”, all sites would show videos with 50-60-year-old actors, discarding everyone else. Very few actors in the section “teens” look like true teens. It’s just carrots for donkeys (no offense) ploy to throw overboard the bulk of teenagers under 18. The most hypocritical thing is that all those “teens”actors not immediately discover their erotic talent after their 18th birthday and definitely already had experience.

Last edited 9 days ago by Leonerd
Zen Thinker

I think some eighteen year olds look very cute, and I’ll take whatever I can get.

Doesn’t mean it’s ideal.

Leonerd

Of course, but this legal deception annoys me.

Prue

Hey To, just letting you know I will get back to you sometime later, and want to say thank you in general for your kindness and supportive nature.

I love the blogs like this where you go though, explain, and deconstruct research. I think you’d be a very good science communicator: in fact, you already are!

I think you might like the new quotes from Emma Goldman and Simone de Beauvoir on Newgon’s feminism page: https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Feminism
I want to make sure there’s a good page that archives sympathetic feminist figures/arguments: although feminist activism has been mostly horrible to MAPs, intellectually, feminists have been willing to challenge doxa over MAP/intergen issues and I think easily availability of quotes fom key figues, even just knowledge about their sympathies, is helpful fo arguing that MAP/YL rights isn’t necessarily anti-feminist.

There’s a book cited there – New Versions of Victims: Feminist Struggles with the Concept, ed. by Sharon Lamb (a name I’m sure you’ll recognize)? Have you heard of this book? I think you’ll like it. Must run off to work!

Jabloko

I want to make sure there’s a good page that archives sympathetic feminist figures/arguments”

Newgon still seems to be missing some stuff Judith Butler has said and written.

Butler is interesting because despite criticizing age of consent laws and – in a typical vague academic way – defending intergenerational relationship, they have also said quite prejudiced stuff about MAPs.

some quotes made by Butler can be found here: https://www.boychat.org/messages/1544269.htm
https://www.brongersma.info/Sexual_consent_-_Some_reflections_on_psychoanalysis_and_law
https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/10j9

Prue

Thanks for the links. I have butler’s paper on sexual consent and have watched the talk you linked, which is a reading of said paper. Judith Butler’s written there so I don’t forget to add her: will get around to it soon! Links are appreciated!

Butler’s comments seem a mixed bag. I mostly remember her comments about non traumatic incest, but let’s see, perhaps she’s been harshest on the P…

Nada

>even just knowledge about their sympathies, is helpful fo arguing that MAP/YL rights isn’t necessarily anti-feminist.

Looking at Goldman, I found no evidence she defended the rights of men loving little girls, despite apparently loving a man when she was a little girl and living at time when feminists/progressives attacked such rights. Arguably, her sympathies for, and defense of, homosexuality included pederastry.

Are the MAP rights of those left undefended necessarily feminist?

A good page on feminism, in sharp contrast to one white-washing feminist anti-pedophilia and presuming misogyny in skeptics, would be of benefit for individuals and the wider MAP community. As far as feminist support/sympathy goes, be specific and take a conservative approach. Far better to underestimate than include at least one, like Judith Butler, explicitly hostile to pedophilia.

Prue

Yes I’ve recently linked to a very good (if horrible) example of anti NAMBLA activism by one self identified feminist. I certainly have no problem including more Anti quotes/sources. If you have anything you recommend to look over, especially from 1st wave feminism which [I think] was often hostile to youth sex work at the time, that would be cool… I can see an argument about hygiene and poor work conditions but I’ve seen it claimed that 1st wave feminists were very against sex work and would like to see what arguments were given…

HappyHumpingPup

30m:51s:
“If the law punished every abnormality we’d be kept pretty busy sargent.”

“Even so sir. This law was made for a very good reason, if it were changed other ‘weaknesses’ would follow.”

“I can see you’re a true MAP, Bridie, Huh?”

“Well, there’s nothing wrong with that sir.”

“Of course not, but there was a time when that was against the law you know.” 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko9xUZKqtww

HappyHumpingPup

Tom, sixty one years since “Victim” 1961. Made by a pro-gay team 6-years after gay War-Hero victim Turing was driven to suicide by neo-Victorian hypocrite homophobe UK cops.

Leading to the very thorough 1959 pro-gay Wolfenden Report, buried by the hypocrite homophobe neo-Victorian Tories. Until modern postwar Labour in 1967 finally made the first UK Gay ‘OK’ Law 21+ in-private (no ‘fun cottaging’).

And a full 30 years further on in 1997-2000 New Labour finally enforced (via the rare ‘Parliament Act’) the EU-made ‘Equal Age of Consent’ 16+ straight or gay LGBTQ?

So, with your connections Tom, in modern youth-made citizen media, surely it’s time now for a YT or similar ‘streaming’ WorldWide BLOCKBUSTER re-make of “VICTIM”; with important intro statement, “Always Respect TRUE Victims”.

Realistic synopsis: A Swingin’ 60s UK-internationally feted Rock Star and his group are for years naturally stalked, groomed, grabbed, groped, layed Worldwide by swarms of (many underage) predatory fans. For years thereafter as adults celebrating their NON-VICTIM proactive ‘Trophy Sex’ with the stars.

Until, you guessed it, the 1980s ongoing CSA BIG $cam creating VICTIMS!

A Mass Deception, fake media-masked as so called ‘Child Protection’. For Ratings, Profit, BIG Cash Compo, BENT Cops’ careers, and always ‘MeTooMoreDough’ – DOH?

*Include: Elvis, Beatles, Stones, Bowie, LedZep & Co now with gently ageing YouTube NON-VICTIM fans like Lori Mattix, Pam Des Barres & Co still BOASTING of their non-recent historic (not hysteric) mere underage sex with the stars!!!

Paraphrase, honest underage, now gently ageing NON-VICTIM, Tuesday Weld, “Around 1959 I was a 13 year old Hollywood ‘Wild Child’ having HOT affairs with mature stars Frank Sinatra, Raymond Burr, and John Ireland. So, Stanley Kubrick asked my Mom for me to test for his planned BLOCKBUSTER ‘Lolita’. I said, ‘No thanks…and I don’t need to test – I AM Lolita!’ ”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPuCssUhbBQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZIRISxjICE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVG_HRJ7mFs

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=plaster+casters+groupies

Stephen James

It is very understandable that pro-gay and pro-MAP people (some of Turing’s sexual partners were quite young) should be very receptive to the idea of Turing’s having killed himself owing to state persecution, but, as I understand it, the evidence for suicide is weak. (For example, Turing appeared to his friends to be fairly cheerful in the days preceding his death.) Of course this is not to deny the inhumanity of the laws against male homosexuality then in force in the UK.

Leonerd
Explorer

Have a link to a free version of the article being mentioned in the blogpost. May I post it here, or is it better not to be done, due to potentially risky copyright issues?

Explorer

Understood, Tom. Then, a simple advice for anyone interested: just use Google Scholar. You’ll find all what I found there, and much more.

sugarboy

Tom, was the research ever condemned by the South African parliament? Sorry, just a joke…
But I wonder why you bring up such a big topic related to a minor study made twenty years ago in far-away latitudes? Maybe was the study discussed recently on Sexnet or something?

Zen Thinker

The true potential for any legitimate and sanctioned sexual contact with a child seems like a forgotten Eden, a dream too wonderful to bring into reality.

But as the poet John Ashbery wrote:

Why be unhappy with this arrangement, since

Dreams prolong us as they are absorbed?

Something like living occurs, a movement

Out of the dream into its codification.

If we use the power and force of the imagination, and the ability to dream, we may find that life does not pass us by too harshly, and that we can be happy in our “reveries” of youthful beauty.

Stephen James

If his opponent happened to be a young BL, Maksym’s ‘staring down’ would be truly deadly!

sugarboy

He’s not yet 8 years old, so his brain is far from being fully developed. How can he consent to moving the pieces?

Yure

Oh, thanks for linking to the article! Much appreciated… And comes handy, since I intend on revising the MAP Starting Guide tomorrow.

Strat

I am guessing your update will include a clarification of the UKCP’s recent more conservative position on the AoC?

If so, would you mind producing a copy on NewgonWiki, or having a copy hosted?

Christian

Strat refers to the CPGB (Communist Party of Great Britain, https://communistparty.co.uk/), which publishes Weekly Worker, and which is more left wing than the better known Communist Party (CPB). In the past, the CPGB opposed AoC and advocated finding other measures to protect youth.
NB. Odesa (Ukrainian) / Odessa (Russian) is in the South of Ukraine, not the West of it.

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