Let’s be clear about prepubertal orgasm

The word “orgasm” has been around for centuries. Personally, I prefer the wonderfully evocative phrase “the voluptuous acme”, as coined by Albert Moll, the great pioneering German sexologist whose 1912 book The Sexual Life of the Child still has much to tell us.

Like his eminent rival Sigmund Freud, Moll was in no doubt that children do indeed have a sexual life, from infancy onwards. In more recent times, though, while lip service is still paid to this view, it is being downplayed in scholarship. The recent Cambridge Handbook of Sexual Development: Childhood and Adolescence, for instance, focuses on the adolescent minor, swiftly passing over the sexuality of prepubertal children as though with some embarrassment. And I was dismayed late last year to see psychologist David Ley telling us in an article on trans youth that “whether orgasms are even possible pre-puberty is it itself somewhat unclear in research”.

Ley is a careful and generally very sex-positive scholar. So, could he be right? For my own part, I know with absolute certainty that prepubertal orgasm is possible because I experienced it myself as a child, some three years before any visible signs of puberty. But could it be that modern science has still not established the matter to its own satisfaction, beyond doubt?

Only one thing to do: check it out – dig into the various kinds of research and see what it amounts to. Ley’s main source turned out to be semantic scholar Diederik Janssen’s deservedly much cited paper, “First stirrings: cultural notes on orgasm, ejaculation, and wet dreams”, from 2007. Janssen identifies nine types of relevant information, which I feel can be consolidated into just three main ones: (1) direct observations (medical, ethnographic, parental, teacher); (2) retrospective (surveys, autobiography); (3) physiological research.

Some accounts are rightly dismissed as mere anecdote if the reliability of the source is in question, or the report lacks relevant detail. But that does not mean the only reports that count must be in scientific journals. Personal accounts, such as this one by Katie Tandy in the Huffington Post, about her first orgasm, when she was eight, deserve to be accorded evidential value. Modern science tends to demand quantified studies, with rigorous statistics. Rigour of this sort is indeed vital when we want to know how prevalent a phenomenon is; but qualitative, rather than quantitative, rigour is what is required in order to establish that a phenomenon actually exists: we need detailed descriptions of what happens.

Actually, the reliability of even the largest and most scientifically prestigious quantitative studies may sometimes be put in doubt. A relevant case in point is Alfred Kinsey’s famous studies more than half a century ago. His data showed that children of all ages down to infancy could experience orgasm, but the findings were compromised by his reliance on MAPs who had reported seeing orgasm in kids they had sex with. Some of these MAPs, he wrote, “are technically trained persons who have kept diaries or other records which have been put at our disposal; and from them we have secured information on 317 preadolescents who were either observed in self masturbation, or who were observed in contacts with other boys or older adults.” Amazingly, it was only much later that this became controversial!

These MAPs could well have been entirely correct in their observations but their findings must be considered highly subjective. What about more objective reporting? Traditionally, medical professionals have been trusted in this regard and I feel that is reasonable: their bias (no one is without bias) on sexual matters generally leans towards the conservative – witness the medical world’s long reluctance to give up the view that homosexuality is a disease. So, if even they are forced by the facts to admit the reality of early prepubertal orgasm, their findings should be accorded high credibility.

Dr Vogel’s book on “the incredibly vicious vice of destructive self-abuse” did at least have one sex-positive aspect: it admitted not just the possibility of prepubertal orgasm but gave a detailed description of how it was made manifest.

Janssen tells us that as far back as the 18th century clinicians have offered “quite incontrovertible descriptions” of infant masturbation to orgasm. The earliest was perhaps that of Samuel Gottlieb von Vogel, a physician famed in Germany as the father of the seaside resort. Doubtless he championed the healthiness of sea air and bathing, which is more than be said for his opinion of masturbation. The title of his 1789 text on the subject translates as Teaching parents, educators, and child caretakers how to most safely discover, prevent, and cure the incredibly vicious vice of destructive self-abuse. Hard to beat that for conservative bias!

Likewise Moll, qualified in neurology as well as psychology, was another leading medical man. He too writes of cases “reported to me” of orgasm in infancy and “still more frequently in respect of somewhat older children, for example, at ages of seven or eight years”. But for authoritative reports of directly observed orgasm in childhood the best sources include those made by medically trained people who have actually witnessed prepubertal orgasm for themselves, in the course of clinical sessions with child patients.

A good example from  relatively recent times comes in the form of a lengthy, extremely detailed 1993 psychoanalytical case report from psychiatrist Rhoda Frenkel, who astonishingly appears to be still in practice as a psychiatrist more than 60 years after graduation. The case in question was that of a 6½-year-old girl who was seen as a patient four times a week for 2 years and 8 months, until she was 9. The data from the analytic sessions, Frenkel says, “demonstrate a young girl’s capacity for intense genital pleasure and orgasm, achieved by self-stimulation of the clitoris and vaginal introitus.”

We hear that during psychological testing, “Erica was uncooperative, responding to queries with the first thing that came to her mind. Her precocious seductiveness made the male psychologist uncomfortable.”

In one session:

She started rolling on the floor, first saying she was angry with me, then laughing and wiggling her whole body in a clearly erotic fashion. She said she had gone to the fair with her daddy and did the monkey dance. When I asked if she was doing the monkey dance now, she said she would show me. Taking a cylindrical building block, she affixed a sphere of playdough to one end of it, labeling it “a thing” (a clearly phallic object). She began the monkey dances standing on a chair, sensually gyrating her body while caressing the “thing” against her chest. Moving to the floor, she continued to move her body seductively.

She seemed unaware of my presence as the tempo escalated, and breathing heavily she began to masturbate, rubbing the “thing” around her clitoris. Throwing it aside she used her hand to stimulate both her clitoral and vaginal areas. As she seemed to be reaching a climax, she stopped abruptly. Appearing fearful, but unable to verbalize her feelings, she insisted on going to the bathroom to avoid having an accident.

Later, we hear:

In the next two months Erica intermittently masturbated during her sessions, usually following visits with her father, which were now restricted to daytime and only with her sisters. Most often she would interrupt her excitement and go to the bathroom, but several times she seemed to reach a climax in the session. Using her hand she would begin in the clitoral area and, with increasing frenzy, she then reached into her vagina. Sometimes using one hand on top of the other, she tightly squeezed her perineal area, both intra- and extravaginally, held her breath for a few seconds, and then made a pleasurable sigh. Releasing her hands, she remained on the floor for a few moments with a dreamy look in her eyes.

From the full case report, running to nearly 10,000 words, we see that Erica clearly had emotional problems that owed much to her parents’ divorce, for which she blamed herself. This is not the subject of our present concern except to say that her uninhibited behaviour makes a lot of sense when seen in its full context. One can only reasonably conclude that this is a painstakingly authentic account, and accurate in its description of the sexual behaviour.

Still, Erica only “seems” to have reached a climax in several clinical sessions. Is Frenkel being excessively cautious in her wording? Bold research undertaken by Ernest Borneman, whose daring exploits were reported here last year, was just as restrained in his wording, but his more extensive findings add weight to his interpretation. As well as having read close to a hundred reports of orgasms among infants and preschool children, he and his colleagues “found six children under two years and seven under four who seemed to be able to produce bodily states which we would have termed orgasmic had they occurred in a grown-up”. These were clinical observations. He even wanted to film such activity which would have given permanent visual proof, but the parents objected! I suspect (but cannot personally confirm) that “CSEM” footage out there on the dark web includes at least a certain amount of authentically comparable material.

Never fear, plenty of confirmation comes from adults reporting in surveys on their own prepubertal orgasms, often referred to as “dry orgasm” in the case of boys because all that is lacking in the intense pleasure of “the voluptuous acme” is the ejaculation of sperm – although “pre-cum” wetness has been noted in the course of clinical observations of infant and early childhood orgasm from Vogel’s account onwards. This has been attributed to discharge of “Cowper’s fluid” from the bulbourethral glands, homologous to Bartholin’s glands in females. Still on fluids, Floyd Martinson noted that both male and female infants display evidence of sexual arousal at birth, with erections continuing for male infants and female infants displaying vaginal lubrication (reported in this book, pp. 47-8).

Now, some number crunching on those retrospective surveys. Van Wyk and Geist (1984) found that more than 25% of boys, as opposed to 10% of girls, masturbate to orgasm before puberty. Of a sample of Swedish high school students, 44% of men and 23% of women had masturbated to orgasm prior to age 13 (Larsson & Svedin, 2002). Nine percent of a group of Spanish students reached orgasm before 11 years of age (Lopez Sanchez, 2002). Bancroft et al., (2003) reported that “One hundred and six women and 124 men gave their age when orgasm first occurred as a result of prepubertal masturbation. This was significantly earlier for women than for men (9.2 vs. 10.4 years).” Further support comes from observation by teachers in kindergartens: Gundersen, Melås and Skår (1981) reported, that “twenty-three percent of the preschool teachers [N=60] had observed orgasm in masturbating children”.

These numbers are impressive, confirming a substantial amount of prepubertal orgasm, and thereby incidentally also confirming that Kinsey’s “unreliable” MAP sources were pretty much correct! In his Human Male volume, he wrote: “… it is probable that half or more of the boys in an uninhibited society could reach climax by the time they were three or four years of age, and that nearly all of them could experience such a climax three to five years before the onset of adolescence.’ (Sexual Behaviour in the Human Male, p. 178.)

As for physiological evidence for prepubertal orgasm, we have already touched on signs of “pre-cum” lubrication, but the most startling findings have come – remarkably – from before birth. As noted in a recent textbook published by Oxford University Press (suggesting substantial academic endorsement):

It is now commonly accepted, if not universally known even among professionals, that the neurological and genital capacity for sexual arousal to orgasm exists in children from before birth. Ultrasound examinations have demonstrated that fetuses suck their toes and fingers and male fetuses touch their penises. Erections are commonly seen in ultrasound images (Hitchcock, Sutphen, & Scholly, 1980), and masturbation in utero has also been observed in sonographic studies. Of a seven-month fetus (Meizner, 1987). Giorgi and Siccardi (1996) observed on sonography what appeared to be masturbation to orgasm in a 32-week female fetus, noting that she touched the region of her clitoris with her hand repeatedly for 30- to 40-second intervals, displaying short, rapid movements of her pelvis and legs, after which she stopped for a few minutes. After approximately 20 minutes of this behavior, which was also observed by the mother, the fetus displayed contractions of trunk and limb muscles, followed by tonic-clonic movements of the whole body, after which she “relaxed and rested. ” While such apparent masturbation to orgasm in utero may be phenomenologically quite different from its homologs in postnatal life, Giorgi and Siccardi point out that female sexual response is distinct from reproductive function and “does not need a full sexual maturity to be explicit”.

We began with David Ley’s assertion that the research evidence for prepubertal orgasm is unclear. We might feel this claim is refuted by the sources presented here, but let’s stick with Ley because he came up with some striking research information of his own on a related matter – not prepubertal orgasm but the mechanism that triggers sexual orgasms in general. He alerts us to stunning findings published only last year by Kevin McKenna, a professor of neuroscience and urology. McKenna’s paper, “What is the trigger for sexual climax?”, highlighted the role not of hormones, or the genitalia, but the spine.  He described how lumbar spinothalamic (LSt) cells are innervated by genital stimulation and generate sexual climax. He argues that these same neural mechanisms underlie climax in human males and females, as well as rats. By email, he told Ley that his research views orgasm as independent from hormones… (my emphasis).

If correct, this would appear to explain why orgasm need not wait for the hormonal surge that both sexes experience at puberty. The mechanism is already in place. The motivation is another matter. Hormones play a major role in sexual “libido” or “drive”. Note, however, that even in this regard puberty is not the only significant hormonal development in childhood. There is also adrenarche, starting several years earlier, which is another big story.

Finally, though, I am aware that some heretics here may feel my focus on orgasm misses a major point about child sexuality: its pleasures and significance to children might not depend on having orgasms or even possessing the capacity to do so. After all, Freud himself held that child sexuality is initially focused orally, via its connection with the pleasure of breast feeding; depending on how individual development proceeds, any part of the body might later become an erogenous zone.

And in the course of researching this blog, I chanced upon a fascinating account by the now veteran anthropologist Robin Fox of his own prepubertal sexuality, in which he looks back on it nostalgically as a lost paradise of marvellous sexual pleasure – marvellous not because of orgasm but because of the capacity he then enjoyed to experience long-lasting pleasure that he compares with Tantric sex. “The Tantric Buddhists,” he wrote, “may well be trying to recapture in adult life the pleasure that was lost when puberty with its vast increase in testosterone production brought on the quick-fix, ejaculatory orgasm.” He says his own prepubertal masturbation could be “lengthy and blissfully pleasurable”. Well, whatever turns you on! I am guessing, though, that most of us, at whatever age, would settle for a “voluptuous acme” of the plain vanilla sort!

 

KEY REFERENCES NOT ACCESSIBLE ONLINE FROM LINKS GIVEN ABOVE:

Gundersen, B. H., Melås, P. S., and Skår, J. E. (1981). “Sexual behavior of preschool children”. In Constantine, L. L., and Martinson, F. M. (eds.), Children and Sex, Little, Brown, Boston, pp. 45–61.

Lopez Sanchez, F., Del Campo, A., & Guijo, V. (2002). “Prepubertal sexuality”. Sexologies, 11, 42, 49-58. [Early volumes of this journal are not available online]. Cited in deGraaf, H., & Rademakers, J. (2006). “Sexual behavior of prepubertal children”. Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality, 18, 1–21.

 

DON’T FALL FOR THE FAKE NEWS FROM MEXICO

A few days ago, Prue drew attention in a comment here to the arrest of Dutch MAP activist Nelson Maatman. The story was given dramatic coverage in the Daily Mail. Most of us will probably not have been very surprised by the arrest itself following the circumstances in which Nelson fled his native Netherlands following persecution by the Dutch state – a situation given extensive coverage at Heretic TOC, most recently here, in March.

So, the arrest was all too real but statements put out by the authorities in Mexico and uncritically relayed by the media should be taken with a truckload of salt. I am pleased to see that Newgon is carrying a fake news alert at the top of all its pages. It says Nelson is being defamed and invites readers to visit their biographic entry on him, where they can find “material you can use to counter this defamation on social media”. I heartily endorse this initiative. The page is here.

Contrary to the impression put out by the media, which makes Nelson look like an international gangster, from what I have seen he is a courageous and principled activist. The worst that can be said about him based on reliable accounts is that he has been rather too brave and incautious.

 

HERO GERT HEKMA WAS AN INSPIRATION

News is piling on top of itself. Heretic TOC should be a daily newspaper, not a monthly blog. A daily paper would have reported long ago the death in April, at age 70, of Dutch anthropologist and sociologist Gert Hekma, who specialised in the history of gay and other unconventional sexuality and who was outspoken in his support of MAPs. His work has been mentioned a number of times on Heretic TOC, most recently here.

I once had the pleasure and privilege of a long conversation with Gert at his elegant Amsterdam apartment on the Oudezijds Voorburgwal, overlooking one of the city’s picturesque canals and with a delightful roof-top garden. He was a wonderfully friendly, congenial host, and every bit as erudite as might be hoped for in a professor with what must have been thousands of books in his home, in floor-to-ceiling shelves.  I also met Mattias Duyves, Gert’s partner and a fellow academic, who was likewise very welcoming. Even then, a few years ago, the pair had been together for forty years, as described in an excellent “at home” profile article in which we are told that Mattias “could explain the work of philosopher Michel Foucault as intimately as if he had still been sitting on the French philosopher’s lap” – which had actually happened: Foucault had been his lover when the famous – and controversial – intellectual was living in Amsterdam.

And now I learn that Gert’s outspokenness on paedophilia has been an inspiration for Nelson Maatman’s activism. Amidst all his troubles, Nelson found time to write an appreciation of Gert. He posted this obituary on Free Speech Tube, here.

Gert Hekma (left) and partner Mattias, in Portugal, 1984.

 

RODGER THE DODGER, WHO BEAT THE RAP

Very sadly, there is another death I should tell you about. At my age you tend to find old friends and acquaintances dropping out of circulation at a rate you might expect on a battlefield.

This time I must report that Roger Moody has left us. His name will be familiar to older London-based heretics and others with an interest in his internationalist pursuits, especially his editorship of Peace News and his decades-long battle against the ravages of global corporate capitalism, especially as regards the impact of mining on the rights of indigenous peoples. In this regard he was a well regarded expert and the author of many books, including Rocks and Hard Places: The Globalization of Mining.

Roger Moody’s account of dodgy police tactics, and how he dodged the bullet.

But it is a very different book, Indecent Assault, for which he will be most remembered by MAPs. Published in 1980, this was Roger’s account of a rare victory against oppressive anti-MAP tactics by the police. He had been charged with indecent assault after a number of boys, if I remember righty, had been put under immense pressure by the police to make statements against him. Tactics included telling these boys – who were supposed to be victims, remember – that they would not be allowed home until they “admitted” that sexual things had gone on, and tricking them by falsely claiming Roger had already confessed.

One or more statements were duly extracted in this way and a case was brought to court. Bravely, Roger admitted he was sexually attracted to boys but pleaded he was not guilty of any criminal offence. His rare candour in the witness box over his sexuality must have made a great impression on the jury because they accepted his version of events and acquitted him.

Roger and I had our differences. He never joined PIE. Our policies and organisation were not to his liking, for reasons I found hard to fathom. We were both on the left, albeit he was doubtless more active and committed in a range of left-leaning causes than we were in PIE, where we tried to cater for all. But at a personal level he was friendly and I was hugely impressed by the love and care he showed for his brother, Peter, who had Down’s syndrome and who predeceased him in 1998. Roger was born in March 1948. His departure at age 74 will be a great loss to a number of important causes. An interesting obituary appeared online just yesterday.

 

 

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Zen Thinker

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) includes Article 34 – freedom from sexual abuse or coercion.

However the UN has shifted focus in recent times and talked a lot about the “sexual rights of the child” – something which has upset conservatives. I don’t have any documents to hand but I expect this concerns the right of the child to experience sexual pleasure. If anyone can find any UN documents on this I would be grateful.

Zen Thinker

Thanks for this excellent information Tom.

I actually based my post on a conservative American perspective: a UN insider called Kimberly Ells was on Tucker Carlson on Wednesday night, and she has just released a book:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Invincible-Family-Campaign-Motherhood-Fatherhood-ebook/dp/B085PNFMXS/

The blurb is as follows:

Socialists and feminists have long targeted the family as an enemy, even the enemy. For socialists, the family is an obstacle to the full power of the progressive state. For feminists, the family denies female independence and equality. Today, however, the battle has grown even fiercer, as socialists and feminists have found a global ally in the United Nations…

And the author:

Kimberly Ells is a Policy Advisor at Family Watch International where she works to protect children from early sexualization…

Now there is probably an unhealthy dose of conservative exaggeration here, but Ells did claim on Tucker Carlson that insider UN groups were heavily into the sexual rights of children, hence I wondered whether there were any substantive documents on the internet.

Not sure it’s worth wading through her book though.

Traction

A quick google using the keywords ‘ictal masturbation children site:nih.gov’ should clear up any doubt that very young children can and do have orgasms. Many medical studies have examined this question, in an effort to prevent the ‘voluptuous acme’ being mistaken for a seizure and triggering unnecessary neurological investigations.

Another term returning many medical research papers is the somewhat glum “gratification disorder”.

Last edited 4 days ago by Traction
Traction

Sorry Tom, my mistake. Results are better without the site restriction, eg:
 
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02752422
 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289189248_Childhood_masturbation_Diagnosis_of_pseudoepileptic_seizures_in_children
 
https://www.seizure-journal.com/article/1059-1311(92)90026-W/fulltext

There’s endless further material referenced from these.

By the way, kids do have a right to a little privacy. Sometimes it feels a bit creepy and intrusive to be paying too much attention to their sexual habits.

I think it’s important to understand that kids have sex lives, but I don’t think I need to be personally involved. I’m interested in this topic because I feel very strongly that children’s sexual rights need to be protected, and are under increasing threat.

There are papers, especially from conservative cultures, that pathologise childhood masturbation, some going so far as to use antipsychotic drugs to ‘treat’ the ‘condition’. This, in the 21st century, doesn’t seem that far ahead of “ferrum candens ad clitoridem”.

 

Last edited 3 days ago by Traction
Zen Thinker

This is an important although potentially embarrassing or unspoken topic. It goes far beyond a “low curiosity” though as establishing that children are sensual beings has implications for our basic attitudes towards current social and cultural issues. It demonstrates, against the social conservatives, that starting sex ed at ever younger years is not a corruption of society but instead an accurate reflection of child psychology and their interaction with a very liberal environment. The drag queen controversies are difficult because it arguably introduces an element of deep unconventionality (I will not say perversity) into children’s early experiences, which could skew an otherwise healthy sexuality. But masturbation at any age is entirely normal according to many reliable sources, although one that was missing from my own childhood (not sexual fantasy, which began at seven). I see no reason why orgasm or at least a climactic sexual feeling should not be possible at any age. However I think the psychological community have a long way to go to acknowledge the true hidden depths of children’s sexuality. One must remember that in Victorian times a similar reluctance engulfed acknowledgement of sexuality generally, so it is something of a cultural hangover from an earlier historic time.

Leonerd

It demonstrates, against the social conservatives, that starting sex ed at ever younger years is not a corruption of society but instead an accurate reflection of child psychology and their interaction with a very liberal environment.

Exactly. Already in the second year of life, children are taught to walk. Nobody says “it’s untimely”, “it corrupts them and let’s wait until 5 when they are psychologically ready.”

They are given a tricycle. Later, they ride on the streets and follow the rules of the road. No one says “let’s forbid bicycles untill 18 because there is a risk of an accident.”

20 years ago, teenage girls could criticize the state of sex education in the UK.

In November 2000, an internet poll of 42,000 girls aged 12 to 16 was conducted. “Nine out of 10 respondents did not believe in waiting until marriage to have sex, while 87 per cent said the age of consent should be lowered from 16. Sex education was criticised as out-dated, uninformative and taught too late, with little structured literature about sexually transmitted diseases, same-sex relationships and how to deal with pregnancy”. Those surveyed also said that free condoms should be provided in girls toilets and that the £60 million drive by the government to half teenage conceptions would have been better spent on clinics for young people wanting confidential advice.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1376140/Girls-say-teenage-sex-campaign-is-out-of-touch.html

Explorer

I want to direct everyone’s attention here to a blog of Mikhail (Misha) Verbitsky, a Russian (well, formerly Russian – now he lives and works in Brazil) professional mathematician and devout anarchist and free-thinker who always was, and still is, an open supporter of the consensual intergenerational sexuality, child / adolescent sexuality and paedosexuality. His support was more than mere words: his free speech blog platform LJ.Rossia.Org is the one that allowed Russian MAPs and MAP allies, as well as child liberationists, to publish their views there. Some years ago, this lead to a barrage of hysterical and hateful attacks directed at him and his platform, that (among other factors) forced him to leave Russia and move to Brazil.

Verbitsky’s blog concentrates on many topics, but, with a relevant tag, one can see all his pro-intergenerational-sexuality posts:

https://lj.rossia.org/users/tiphareth/tag/pedo

Well, the single problem with the blog is that it is written in Russian… but, with the help of Google Translate or some other similar utility a non-Russian spreaker probably can obtain a readable translation of his writings there.

Last edited 5 days ago by Explorer
Prue

Gert Hekma was a hero. A true inspiration and exactly what scholars should aim to be. Brave, bold, open-minded, thought-provoking, and of course, learned, as Gert was, to an exceptional degree. His writings in Paidika remain immensely valuable studies on MAPs who would’ve otherwise remained obscure figures.

Truly a brilliant man…

Will have more to say more later :p

Prue

Re: Roger Moody:

Everyone here, if you’ve not seen it, check out the brongersma website where you can find Moody’s famous Indecent Assault book as a pdf here: https://www.brongersma.info/Indecent_assault

I can tell you this is very rare. I recently made some efforts at archiving books myself, which led me to scanning every page of Moody’s book only to subsequently realize it was on this site!!! So, don’t make my mistake – take the easy route and save a copy for yourselves!

For interested persons, other than his book, I know that Moody authored the following:

Child protection, English style, in PAN issue 5 (1980) https://www.brongersma.info/PAN-05
Man/Boy Love and The Left, in The Age Taboo (ed. Daniel Tsang, 1981).

‘Ends and means: how to make paedophilia acceptable…?’ In the book, The Betrayal of Youth – Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People (Ed. by Warren Middleton; CL Publications, London; 1986). https://www.brongersma.info/Ends_and_means:_how_to_make_paedophilia_acceptable…%3F

It’s also possible that Moody authored much more in the journal PAN. See https://www.brongersma.info/Category:Roger_Moody

I have to go right now but I’ll be back, will have a look over Moody’s work and give some commentary on this thoughtful man and his writings.

RIP Roger

Cyril

The graduate psychologist at the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Berlin, RENATE VOLBERT, lists the following studies, among others: “(…I)n a survey of 211 nursery nurses and kindergarten teachers of the former GDR (Bach, 1993), they stated that they had observed genital games in 75% of boys and 60% of girls aged 2 to 6 years. In a study by Klein (1993), the Erzieherinnen surveyed said that 40% of girls and 19% of boys often played on their genitals. 27% of the Erzieherinnen stated that they had noticed clear states of arousal in the children; orgasms were observed in 13% of the boys and in 17% of the girls. In a Norwegian study (Gundersen et al., 1981), 85% of the Erzieherinnen surveyed stated that they had observed masturbation in the kindergarten children. About a quarter said that it comes to orgasm in the children. In accordance with this, 81% of 91 Erzieherinnen surveyed in a study by Volbert and Zellmer (in prev.), having observed genital games in the children under their care up to 7 years of age; 43% confirmed the observation of masturbation of children and 23% reported having observed that children masturbated to orgasm“ (Volbert 1998).

The source is said to be this:

Volbert, Renate (1998): Sexuelles Verhalten von Kindern: Normale Entwicklung oder Indikator für sexuellen Mißbrauch? In: Amann und Wipplinger, Sexueller Mißbrauch, 1998

though the date 1997 seems more probable.

Cyril
Cyril

The quote from Mark Norlik’s Tabuzone (2013):

ERICH WULFFEN dokumentierte während seiner Arbeit als Polizeipsychologe Anfang des 20. Jahrhunderts eine Anzahl von Fällen. Die moralische und fachliche Bewertung der Vorfälle ist dem Geist seiner Zeit anzurechnen. Unter der Kapitelüberschrift „Onanie. Das weibliche Kind. Pubertät. Nymphomanie. Ehebruch“ schrieb der Arzt: „Ein Kollege von mir beobachtete ein achtjähriges Mädchen aus ehrenwerter Familie, das ohne jedes kindliche und moralische Gefühl seit dem vierten Jahre onanierte und außerdem mit zehn- bis zwölfjährigen Knaben Unzucht trieb. (…) Ebenso berichtet er von zwei Schwestern mit vorzeitigem perversem Geschlechtstrieb, deren eine schon mit sieben Jahren onanierte und mit Knaben Geschlechtsverkehr übte, ihre vierjährige Schwester zur Onanie verführte, mit zehn Jahren die größten Scheußlichkeiten beging (…) und mit der Soutane des Geistlichen, der sie zur Besserung ermahnte, masturbierte. Ein achtjähriges Mädchen, auf dem Lande aufgewachsen, kam zu seinen Eltern nach Paris, wo es abmagerte und ein verschlossenes Wesen zur Schau trug. Schließlich bekannte es, es habe von seinem vierten Jahre ab mit sechs- bis zwölfjährigen Knaben geschlechtlich verkehrt und könne nun diesen Verkehr nicht mehr entbehren. Ein vierzigjähriger Arzt berichtete (…) folgendes: »Meine Sexualität erwachte sehr früh, beinahe so früh, als meine Erinnerung zurückreicht … Besonders eine Freundin fand ich, mit der ich ein Verhältnis anknüpfte, das bis zu meinem sechsten Lebensjahr dauerte. Wir waren viel allein und konnten ungestört machen, was wir wollten (…) Meine Freundin wollte immer zuerst erregt werden. Man bedenke, dass (…) die Freundin erst drei Jahre alt war. (…) Meine kleine Liebste lachte, und dann ließ sie mit sich machen, was ich wollte. Ich mochte aber nie etwas anderes als den regelrechten Koitus. (…) Neben meiner Freundin hatte ich noch einige andere Spielgenossinnen und Kameraden, mit denen ich mitunter eine kleine Orgie veranstaltete.« (…) “ (Wulffen 1993/ee1923).

(… source:) Wulffen, Erich (1993): Das Weib als Sexualverbrecherin. Erstveröffentlichung durch Dr. Paul Langenscheidt, Berlin, 1923. Orion Verlag, Flensburg

It means that child sexuality is acknowledged even by those specialists who condemn and struggle against it.

Cyril

Why translate? Anyone who needs it may use Google Translate on one’s own. Original text is more important

Cyril

Craft Ebbing testified:

Zambaco (L’Encéphale, 1882, Nr. 1, 2) tells the disgusting story of two sisters affected with premature and perverse sexual desire. The elder, R., masturbated at the age of seven, practiced lewdness with boys, stole wherever she could, seduced her four-year-old sister into masturbation, and at the age of ten was given up to the practice of the most revolting vices. Even ferrum candens ad clitoridem had no effect in overcoming the practice, and she masturbated with the cassock of a priest while he was exhorting her to reformation.

The fact is that the medical authority that was the first who pathologized pedophilia, that was the enemy of masturbation, he actually admits the existance of child sexuality!

Girllover

When I was a little boy from ages 6-12 I would dress up in my sister’s clothes and play with myself as I looked in a mirror. It’s not because I wanted to be a girl, it’s just that I found girls so beautiful and attractive that I wanted to manifest their presence through myself. As I became a teenager this went away and I stopped doing it. My desires for prepubscent girls didn’t go away, it’s only that I was no longer able to adequately portray myself as one. Had anyone found out about it I might have been wrongly diagnosed with gender dysphoria since that seems to be the assumption for cross dressing, especially for kids whose sexuality is dismissed as being non existent.

sugarboy

More research in the field of prepubertal orgasm is quite easy to conduct, especially if one has an internet connection. Here is an account from a man who is downright disappointed that he has lost the orgasm capabilities that he had as a child:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/t0d7g/guys_were_you_multiorgasmic_before_your_first/

sugarboy

Actually, I don’t know. It’s more or less coincidental – some topics have a lot of replies, other just a few ones. But if you have nothing to do in the next three weeks, you can read this:

http://www.sexarchive.info/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUS/CHILDORG.HTM

sugarboy

By the way, our friend Eivind Berge has already discovered this last blog of yours, and (as is customary for him) he does not mince with words when it comes to David Ley:

And seriously, how is it possible to be so ignorant when you even claim to have a clinical practice related to sexology? Granted that he might not have experienced it himself like me and TOC, and it is possible to shirk on academic reading and still be a decent person, but you only have to speak to less than 10 men before statistically encountering someone who can tell you they orgasmed by age 7. So Ley is a gigantic, ridiculous fraud. He has also blocked me on Twitter now because he is afraid of the truth.

Explorer

As for the difference between prepubertal and postpubertal orgasm through masturbations, here I can tell a lot from my own rather vast boyish experience, since I literally masturbated as long as could remember myself!

Much like as Robin Fox, as quoted by you, described, the crucial feature of my non-ejaculatory sexual satisfaction, one that I experienced so much in my childhood years, was its continuous, flow-like nature: as long as I excited myself into pleasure by my own hands, it simply lasted as long as I proceeded with the process. This changed soon after I turned 13, when my usual masturbatory act suddenly – very suddenly! – ended with my first ejaculation, as well as my first “adult-like” – quick and explosive – orgasm. I still recall this time vividly: I was actually quite confused after this incident, not knowing what to do with my stained bedsheet and dirty hands.

Interestingly, as an adolescent, I soon found ways to enjoy both types of orgasm. I could masturbate intensely, quickly driving myself to ejaculation and release – which I learned to do in my bathroom, where I could, well, easily dispose of the product and its marks 😉 – the “pleasure blast”, so to say. And I also could do it more gently, for a lengthy time, constantly feeling the coming of an orgasm but never releasing it fully, thus reproducing “the pleasure wave” of my childhood – this was reserved for the bedroom. So, the child-like “wave pleasure” is not lost for someone who tries, even without the involvement of Tantra or some other somato-psycho-spiritual technique.

Well, this was cool until in my 20s I finally initiated my sexual relationships with actual real-life adult women, preferrably somewhat older than myself… But this is another story, and a substantially different one, since it deals more with emotional and intellectual connections than a purely bodily enjoyment.

Last edited 8 days ago by Explorer
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